Are We BORN TO BE GOOD?
A Pre-Colombian Depiction of "Community Organizing," or just Dancing In The Streets?

Are We BORN TO BE GOOD?

Reading Dacher Keltner’s Born to Be Good: The Science of a Meaningful Life showed me a lot about what humans are missing out on while we’re sheltering-in-place, wearing masks, physically and socially distancing; and why it feels so Gawdawful rotten, inhumane and boring. But also how the 20th Century tried to “de-humanize” ALL of us.

“Paintings of dance are found on the earliest human pottery…” Professor Keltner declares, “A regular, ritualized occurrence of hunter-gatherer life.”[i] No cruising, boozing or schmoozing F2F until the hospital ICUs empty out and infection rates dip now, however; not even handshakes or shoulder hugs outside our household “bubble.” For homo sapiens, it’s just beyond weird.

Brief outbursts of BLM and “freedom” demonstrations occurred here and there since early spring, and, of course, November 7th 2020's actual jubilational “Dancing in the Streets;” but our bodies, communities and emotional lives are suffering, even if we’ve been cautious and lucky enough to survive the actual pandemic.

We’ve muffled and lost some understandings in the past century or so about how to FEEL GOOD and share that with others, well before the pandemic. These evolutionary instincts have been put to use selling products and politics. As Rodney King asked plaintively, “Can we all get along?”[ii] If we all fall back on and dig down into our instincts for humanness, the answer is, “Yes. We CAN.”

Overwhelming essentials remain deeply wired into our bodies, sense organs and brains. Think on these chapter titles in Born to Be Good:

SURVIVAL OF THE KINDEST,

EMBARRASSMENT,

SMILE,

LAUGHTER,

TEASE,

TOUCH,

COMPASSION and

AWE.

How often do they appear in “headline news?”

What if Prof. Keltner’s “science” misadventure with his young family on the winter sands near Monterey with the elephant seals’ chapter in the middle of the book is where he started, the one entitled “LOVE”?

His story of the alpha males echoes the behavior of the great gorillas and maybe our own as fellow “top levels of the food chain” mammals; where they lord over their females with bellows, grunts, clouts, rape and pure physical bulk. They not only attack any lesser males with the same and worse auditory abuse and violence; but accidentally-on-purpose expel and murder their rivals, alien progeny and their own neonatal young.

Eeewww. Too scary? Hey, in the “Survivor” “Mean World,” that’s what SELLS, RIGHT? And that’s WHAT IT (the meaning of life) ’S ALL ABOUT, RIGHT?[iii] At least it would bring us up-close-and-personal into the contrast between his traumatized family seeking knowledge and inspiration about mammalian “family relationships” and the park ranger’s “scientific,” “droning” explanations of marine biology playing out before their wind, -tear-and-sand-swept eyes and idealistic, wounded hearts.

Tabloid reporters and travel writers completely know that about conveying news and exotica. “If it bleeds, it leads;” puppies, babies, sex, shock value and kittens come next. Even in more sophisticated genres like opera and Jane Austen novels; deep drama, color, image and movement appeal to our senses and feelings before charts, statistics and dry facts make it all the way up to the pre-frontal lobes of our brains. Even facts about how emotions make us civil, sane, happy and social survivors over thousands of years. How to live “A Meaningful Life.”

Stories around a campfire told by a trusted elder or, in the past 70 years, trusted newscaster; hit home more profoundly than cerebral explanations, go straight to the heart (and neuro-hormonal system that cues it).

If Prof. Keltner really wants to talk about “that deeply satisfying moment when you (humans, his readers) bring out the goodness of others,”[iv] we need stories to get and stay engaged right off the bat. He has some tempting phrases in Chapter 1 like “this narrow concentration on “happiness” has stunted our scientific understanding of the emotions,”[v] putting forward “a new science of positive emotion”[vi] rather than competitive, materialistic and otherwise negative states of desire. But…

Dance it for us. Sing a song. Share a joke. That’s what humans DO. You don’t start out with the 35-mile-an-hour train ride across the desert counting the telephone poles unless something truly extraordinary happens to create an epiphany in the narrator, reader or fellow passengers. We need to latch on. We learn patience and focus with maturity, Sir, but we never really unlearn our interactive, interpersonal, human care.

Keltner starts instead with an abstract, esoteric Confucian “complex mixture of kindness, humanity and respect that transpires between people,”[vii] data about greed and status-seeking in lab games, then 73 pages of “brief philosophical history” of scientists from Darwin to UCSF’s brilliant Paul Ekman charting facial gestures from Central African bonobos to “Cro-Magnon CEOs.”

Meh… (“an interjection of indifference, apathy or boredom,” American Heritage Dictionary, 2016). In Cal grad game-theorist Thomas Schelling’s iconography, “Emotions are involuntary commitment devices that bind us to one another in long-term, mutually beneficial relationships.”[viii] On page 37, I am not quite ready to chew up a sentence like this yet.

 It gets better as he goes along. He has snapshots, snippets, like his descriptions of the complete and overwhelming impact of meeting and being on a panel with His Holiness (His Constantly Practiced Humaneness, I would say) the Dalai Lama, but mostly WTMI [ix] and way NOT enough of what I and some other people call soul. [x]

I liked it eventually because I liked the comparative anthropology parts in the first chapters; but Keltner, the director of the Berkeley Greater Good Science Center,[xi] (whose mission, I believe, is “to explore the roots of happy and compassionate individuals, strong social bonds, and altruistic behavior,”[xii]) has good facts, but not tales at the beginning of his book.

Trust me on this one. This was my third or fourth try at reading this truly wonderful book, and I was finally only successful because I started at page 199, Chapter 10, then went back and started again at Chapter One. True, I am neither a scientist nor a statistician; but I have significant intelligence, curiosity and a legendary attention span, especially for reading insightful books about humankind, our fortes and foibles, which BORN TO BE GOOD certainly is.

As a fellow writer with passionate interests, facts and observations to share; I feel for him. I feel for him. It’s something about his scientist’s detachment and distance. I feel for him. I really do.

Whether we’ve been trained out of it or not, we ALL FEEL. IT MOVES AND MOTIVATES US TO DO WHAT WE DO:  Feeling when, where, how and with whom…IN ALL HUMAN CULTURES ALL OVER THE WORLD IN THE SAME WAYS, underneath it all, with each other, for thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

Or said in a different way, because it’s all about interpersonal relationships; as Maya Angelou said, “At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did, they will remember how you made them feel.”[xiii]

The “familial universals” of human mammals occurring in “early attachment experiences” where “parents…were responsive to (our) early needs and responses” laid down in our DNA and synapses over at least the past several hundred thousand years “lay the foundation of the capacity to connect,” resulting in “deep patterns of neural response in (our) pro-social nervous system.”[xiv]

That’s a big scientific mouthful, but “as the twig is bent, so grows the tree,” as well as the entire forest of homo sapiens, “remembered” individually, historically, or not. “…(T)he regions of the brain involved in memory…aren’t fully functioning until age two or so… But they (familial universals) are felt every moment of life.”[xv]

Here and there in BORN TO BE GOOD, Prof. Keltner briefly traces “the other end of the continuum” of “people prone to violence…externalizers…(who) externalize their inner turmoil by acting out aggressively…,”[xvi] but soon comes back to “affiliative grooming,” smiles, laughter, “touch and soothing vocalizations.”[xvii]

It is so much more fun to pursue Darwin’s evolutionary “adaptations…put to new uses in a broader array of contexts to respond adaptively to shifting selection pressures” that happily end in our so integrally and presently desperately needed and culturally stifled INTERPERSONAL AND COMMUNITY “AWE and JOY.”

Keltner and his fellow-researchers preferred studies demonstrating our “acute tendency to care,…highly coordinated, face-to-face social exchanges…the need to reconcile and…flatten social hierarchies…perpetually negotiated conflicts of interests and…the emergence of the tendency toward sexual monogamy” “that gave rise to the moral emotions” in homo sapiens.[xviii] I, for one, am very relieved they did. There are way too many “studies” pointing out how terribly guilty and silenced we “ought to” feel for our common, human flaws.

The amazing anatomical path of viscero-emotional and brain chemistry where Keltner charts “embarrassment – a trigger of reconciliation and forgiveness…(which) warns us of immoral acts and prevents us from mistakes that unsettle social harmony,” however, echoes Charles Darwin’s “sympathy, which…forms an essential part of the social instinct, and is indeed its foundation-stone.”

His oft-quoted “survival of the fittest” (On the Origin of Species, 1859) work on evolution primarily studied animals, reptiles and birds, but his later work, like The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals of 1872, “posited many different positive emotions”[xix] “as he parsed the realm of expressive behavior” seeking “a study that would address whether facial expressions are universal to a human species shaped by a common history of selection pressures.”[xx]

That study was the one Dacher Keltner worked on as an undergrad student for Paul Ekman in the 1960s. Facial expressions and their concomitant emotional experiences universally arise out of “specific physiological response(s),” not the “particulars of the social context” as previously thought.[xxi]

And humans can imagine. From the age of infant “peek-a-boo” games through courtship through busloads of seniors attending the Oregon Shakespeare Festival to willingly “suspend disbelief” for hours at a time; we are moved by what our bodies tell us, through motion, sight, smell, taste and touch interpreted neurologically over nanoseconds and projected into linear time, the action-reaction of life by our fantastically large and developed brains.

Yes, but… PBS News is doing a series on Childhood Trauma this week (Dec. 14-18, 2020)[xxii], undoubtedly examining the many kinds of trauma that interrupt and modify “an active concern for others, and not simple mirroring of others’ suffering that is the fount of compassion, and that leads to altruistic ends.”[xxiii] Human neurobiology can be harmed or harnessed to cultivate and martial “psychopaths, who prove to be unresponsive to the signs of suffering in others.”[xxiv]

When U.S. Army interviews revealed “only 15 per cent of World War Two riflemen had fired at the enemy during combat” they moved to “improved” dehumanizing “infantry training exercises” that “played down the notion that shooting kills humans,” raising the percentage to “90 percent … in the Vietnam War” 30 years later.[xxv] This is “progress?” Is this “evolution,” or a temporary aberration?

At the present moment and with our present population, pandemic and “politics,” we need to be extremely conscious of and balancing in these “antisocial tendencies brought on by brain trauma” and barrages of “education” and media that “leave reasoning intact,” but “disengage…(our) ability to appease, reconcile, forgive, and participate in the social-moral order.”[xxvi]

For example, actually viewing the cold, dominant, dispassionate cruelty of Officer Chauvin’s, a fellow human’s, face, voice and body as he extinguished Mr. Floyd’s life MOVED thousands, if not millions of us from distanced, intellectuo-political thought-talk to visceral, ancient gut-knowledge (by way of the vagus nerve); eliciting a totally active human RESPONSE.

Those of us not dulled, fascinated by or inured to habitual video gaming, domestic violence, Urban Shield paramilitary “policing” expos, war movies, boxing matches, PTSD or “Cops” TV shows sensed and felt physical, emotional and then mental recognition, empathy, shock and repulsion. And even some of “us” who were, too, were shocked out of their stupor back into feeling somewhat humane.

This was not a movie nor a video “game.” That “Black life” MATTERED; very suddenly, completely, “automatically;” and we UNDERSTOOD horror literally “in every fiber of our being.” Like the TV footage of the “Vietnam conflict” in the ‘60s, our ancient neural pathways told us the truth. He was us, we were him, WE FELT FOR HIM; “Mama,” was us he was speaking to, and we heard “I can’t breathe,” with our own breaths with thousands, millions of fellow humans all over the world.

Keltner hints that what has been damaged can be turned back, and that our biology for the long term remains intact. Our “hard-wiring” is still there. If we are BORN TO BE GOOD, we cannot give up hope.

Prof. Keltner also reveals that guys have 7x less oxytocin, the “feelgood” “neuropeptide that promotes oceanic feelings of devotion and trust”[xxvii] than gals do. He doesn’t say it outright, but I think this has something to do with many strains of global cultural misogyny as well as violence among men. As clans of evolving hominids grew larger and moved out from the forests and jungles to the savannas and plains, the hunters’ male-bonding groups probably evolved different neuro-hormonal systems geared to those activities than the agricultural, elder and child-tending mostly female “gatherers” did over eons of time. (Hence the behavior of the great apes of Africa and elephant seals on that Monterey beach.)

His identification that “the portions of the frontal lobes involved in empathy and perspective taking – continue to develop into the twenties” confirms for him that “Compassion can be cultivated,”[xxviii] and hints to me probably why draftees and child soldiers are taken before that can happen to reverse an obedient militarist trend.

And then there’s his personal experience: In the “approximately 4,500” basketball games he’s played with “people from all walks of life,” he’s “never once seen a fight break out…The language of touch in the pickup game neutralizes the aggressive intent… the violent physicality of basketball is transformed by touch.”[xxix]

His description of intensive skin-to-skin infant care, “typically provided by mothers, but also by engaging fathers, younger female relatives (aunts, sisters), and younger children” in 20th Century !Kung villages “might seem indulgent to our modern, Benjamin-Spock-trained sensitivities, but in hunter-gatherer culture, it was a given.” These babies are “…sung to, bounced, entertained, encouraged, and addressed at length in conversational tones”[xxx] instead of stuck in a playpen to cry or propped up in front of a TV while Mom and Dad are absent or work 24/7 on cellphones and screens.

Did Victorian Europe and Puritan to Fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. “evolve” our lives towards fear, rage, apathy and mistrust? Are most American neural corridors of care numbed irreparably? Have we forgotten how to all get together, have a GOOD time, “get down” and dance?

I feel for him, trying to stem the tide ten years ago with this crafted, careful, intimate, celebratory book. The conservative pundit featured for contrast on PBS News Hour’s coverage of the Democratic Convention this summer couldn’t quite grasp the emphasis on empathy in the whole procedure, watching the parade of NON-Barbie-and-Ken-looking delegates casting their ballots from all over the country one by one. The pundit kept asking flatly what the “policies” and “issues” behind all this openness, diversity and inclusion were. He was truly puzzled. I felt really sorry for him, too.

Can we go back to “early attachment experiences” that “alter…the individual’s “working model;” of intimacy, trust, and the goodness of others, deep, early beliefs that shape our peer relations, work dynamics, ensuing adventures in our own families, and engagement in communities”?[xxxi]

Is early “pretend play” a forerunner of the “willing suspension of disbelief” that makes “representative language, art, ritual and communication” of past, present and future possible? The invisible and impossible imaginable and conceivable? Isn’t this what our great forebrains make us capable of; imagining, loving and change? As well as prejudice, alienation, mistrust and fear?

“In the pretend play of young children, laughter enables playful routines that allow them to have alternative perspectives on the world they are facing…a shift toward a new perspective enabled by the imagination…” “…shared laughter, playful touch, ritualized reconciliation, the perspective of others --- a life beyond parallel play.” [xxxii]

Even “embarrassment converts events (like)…social gaffes, offensive remarks, violations of privacy…into opportunities for reconciliation and forgiveness…It is in these in-the-moment acts of deference that we honor others, and in so doing, become strong.”[xxxiii]

Peaceful transference of power? Post-Partisan Elation? If today is all horrible, isn’t it possible that tomorrow it just might be all OK?

A nod of the head, a smile, a slight bow, a back or forward step, raised eyebrows, bump together when walking, open-handed approach, encouraging phrase. The glue that makes us functional, social, interactional human beings. “Courtesy is the grease that oils civilization” was a “Chinese saying” I heard a long time ago. Civility is a call for our nation as well as our world.

“After you, Ma’m,” “Thank you” at the grocery store door; “May I have this dance?” “Awfully sorry,” “No prob, Bro,” “No, you go ahead and have the last cookie…” “Here, let me help you with that.” “Nice pass!” “Woo-hoo, slam dunk.” “No harm done.” “Not bad!” “I can do that if you’d like me to.” (the young fellow said to my great relief as I finally realized I could no longer skillfully hoist my bag up into the airplane’s overhead bin)……..

Is it “stupid” to share, care or take turns? To wear a mask, wash hands and stay a meter apart to keep not only ourselves but others from getting sick? Allow respect and dignity to fellow human beings? I think not. I think it may be our last chance to show we are sapiens indeed: humans who are, in our bones, brains and nervous systems, potentially very, very wise.

Do something different, shrug it off, smile, giggle, take a deep breath, heal and move on? Is that what it means to continue to EVOLVE? Fall back on something innate and intuitive we’ve “known all along?”

AAaaaaahhhhh….. I’m smiling. Relaxing. Laughing out loud. Looking into someone’s eyes. Even if it’s only “mirror neurons” on Zoom… Looking forward to finally touching and shaking hands.

I feel better already…

 

 

When man is born, he is tender and weak

At death, he is stiff and hard

All things, the grass as well as trees, are tender and subtle while alive

When dead, they are withered and dried.

Therefore the stiff and the hard are companions of death

The tender and weak are the companions of life

If the tree is stiff, it will break

The strong and the great are inferior, while the tender and the weak are superior.

         Lao Tzu the Tao de Ching

 

 

Brooks, David, (27 August 2020) “Trump and the Politics of ‘Mean World’: A Four-day Showing of Apocalypse Now,” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/opinion/trump-republicans-2020.html (23 December 2020) The New York Times, New York, New York.

 

Keltner, Dacher, (2009), BORN TO BE GOOD: The Science of a Meaningful Life, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London.

 

Klein, Naomi, (8 May 2020) The Intercept / UK Guardian reprint (13 May 2020) “How big tech plans to profit from the pandemic,” https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic    (8 September 2020) 

 

The Science of Happiness - Greater Good - University of ...

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Greater Good Science Center

Created by UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center, the course zeroes in on a fundamental finding from positive psychology: that happiness is inextricably ...

 

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Greater Good Science Center

FOOTNOTES

[i] Keltner, Dacher, (2009), BORN TO BE GOOD: The Science of a Meaningful Life, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London. (p. 219)

[ii] Wikipedia, (18 December 2020) “Rodney King,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King  (23 December 2020).

[iii] Brooks, David, (27 August 2020) “Trump and the Politics of ‘Mean World’: A Four-day Showing of Apocalypse Now,” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/opinion/trump-republicans-2020.html    (11 September 2020) New York Times, New York, NY.

[iv] Keltner, op. cit. p. 5.

[v] Ibid., p. 15.p

[vi] Ibid., p. 3.

[vii] Ibid.

[viii] Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, (23 December 2020) “Thomas Schelling,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling (24 December 2020) “In Schelling's approach, it is not enough to defeat your opponent. Instead, one must seize opportunities to cooperate. And in most cases, there are many. Only on the rarest of occasions, in what is known as "pure conflict," he points out, will the interests of participants be implacably opposed…Cooperation, where available, may take many forms, and thus could potentially involve everything from "deterrence, limited war, and disarmament" to "negotiation." Indeed, it is through such actions that participants are left with less of a conflict and more of a "bargaining situation."

[ix] Farlex Free Dictionary, “CITE” AcronymFinder.com, (Copyright 1988-2018) “WTMI,” https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/WTMI (24 December 2020) “Way Too Much Information.”

[x] American Heritage Dictionary, Fifth Edition, (2016), “soul,” definition 5 and 6, https://www.thefreedictionary.com/soul (23 December 2020) “A sense of emotional strength or spiritual vitality held to derive from black and especially African-American cultural experience, expressed in areas such as language, social customs, religion, and music. 6. Strong, deeply felt emotion conveyed by a speaker, performer, or artist: a performance that had a lot of soul.”

[xi] Greater Good Science Center (2020) greatergood.berkeley.edu/ (23 December 2020) University of California, Berkeley, CA.

[xii] Ibid., (2020) “Our Mission About Greater Good,” https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/about (23 December 2020)

[xiii] Goodreads, (2020) “Maya Angelou > Quotes” https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/663523-at-the-end-of-the-day-people-won-t-remember-what (23 December 2020)

[xiv] Keltner, op cit, p. 204-205.

[xv] Ibid p.205.

[xvi] Ibid., p. 89-90.

[xvii] Ibid., p.112, 139, 178… Note also wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, "Males sustain traumatic brain injuries around twice as often as females."

[xviii] Ibid., p. 65.

[xix] Ibid., p. 18.

[xx] Ibid., p.24.

[xxi] Ibid., p. 29.

[xxii] PBS, Public Broadcasting system, (Dec. 14-18, 2020) “Whole People: Childhood Trauma,” https://www.pbs.org/video/whole-people-101-childhood-trauma-3swqgb/  (23 December 2020)

[xxiii] Keltner, op cit., p. 239-40.

[xxiv] Ibid., p. 92-94.

[xxv] Ibid., p. 52-54.

[xxvi] Ibid., p. 90-92.

[xxvii] Ibid., p. 181, 213, 217.

[xxviii] Ibid., p. 248.

[xxix] Ibid., p. 196-197.

[xxx] Ibid., p. 59, 203, 205.

[xxxi] Ibid., p. 204.

[xxxii] Ibid., p. 136-138.

[xxxiii] Ibid., p. 95.



[1] Keltner, Dacher, (2009), BORN TO BE GOOD: The Science of a Meaningful Life, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London. (p. 219)

[1] Wikipedia, (18 December 2020) “Rodney King,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King  (23 December 2020).

[1] Brooks, David, (27 August 2020) “Trump and the Politics of ‘Mean World’: A Four-day Showing of Apocalypse Now,” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/opinion/trump-republicans-2020.html    (11 September 2020) New York Times, New York, NY.

[1] Keltner, op. cit. p. 5.

[1] Ibid., p. 15.p

[1] Ibid., p. 3.

[1] Ibid.

[1] Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, (23 December 2020) “Thomas Schelling,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling (24 December 2020) “In Schelling's approach, it is not enough to defeat your opponent. Instead, one must seize opportunities to cooperate. And in most cases, there are many. Only on the rarest of occasions, in what is known as "pure conflict," he points out, will the interests of participants be implacably opposed…Cooperation, where available, may take many forms, and thus could potentially involve everything from "deterrence, limited war, and disarmament" to "negotiation." Indeed, it is through such actions that participants are left with less of a conflict and more of a "bargaining situation."

[1] Farlex Free Dictionary, “CITE” AcronymFinder.com, (Copyright 1988-2018) “WTMI,” https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/WTMI (24 December 2020) “Way Too Much Information.”

[1] American Heritage Dictionary, Fifth Edition, (2016), “soul,” definition 5 and 6, https://www.thefreedictionary.com/soul (23 December 2020) “A sense of emotional strength or spiritual vitality held to derive from black and especially African-American cultural experience, expressed in areas such as language, social customs, religion, and music. 6. Strong, deeply felt emotion conveyed by a speaker, performer, or artist: a performance that had a lot of soul.”

[1] Greater Good Science Center (2020) greatergood.berkeley.edu/ (23 December 2020) University of California, Berkeley, CA.

[1] Ibid., (2020) “Our Mission About Greater Good,” https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/about (23 December 2020)

[1] Goodreads, (2020) “Maya Angelou > Quotes” https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/663523-at-the-end-of-the-day-people-won-t-remember-what (23 December 2020)

[1] Keltner, op cit, p. 204-205.

[1] Ibid p.205.

[1] Ibid., p. 89-90.

[1] Ibid., p.112, 139, 178…

[1] Ibid., p. 65.

[1] Ibid., p. 18.

[1] Ibid., p.24.

[1] Ibid., p. 29.

[1] PBS, Public Broadcasting system, (Dec. 14-18, 2020) “Whole People: Childhood Trauma,” https://www.pbs.org/video/whole-people-101-childhood-trauma-3swqgb/  (23 December 2020)

[1] Keltner, op cit., p. 239-40.

[1] Ibid., p. 92-94.

[1] Ibid., p. 52-54.

[1] Ibid., p. 90-92.

[1] Ibid., p. 181, 213, 217.

[1] Ibid., p. 248.

[1] Ibid., p. 196-197.

[1] Ibid., p. 59, 203, 205.

[1] Ibid., p. 204.

[1] Ibid., p. 136-138.

[1] Ibid., p. 95.

DAVID KREBS

Retailer. Herbalist. Natural Products Industry veteran. Cybersecurity novice.

4 年

Thanks Wyndy. Nice to see this post from you. Reminder of Albany.

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