"You learn much more from observing than talking"A R Rahman Outliers @100

A.R. Rahman — A.R. as he prefers to be addressed — is one of those Outliers who, having charted a unique path of their own and spread their magic along the way, hardly need an introduction. His genius lies not just in his creative melodies — ranging from the enchanting Roja to the soulful Kun Faya Kun to the peppy, Oscar-winning Jai Ho — but in seeking out all that is ‘good’. In music, in life, in other human beings. Never the one to talk too much or without reason, A.R. just about managed to give us, in this 100th episode of Outliers, a glimpse into his extraordinary mind and method. Transcription is courtesy of Kanika Berry. 

Pankaj: Welcome to the Outliers podcast, A.R. It’s a privilege to be recording the 100th episode of Outliers with you. 

A.R: Oh, nice. So you finished 99? 

Pankaj: Yes, Outliers is 99-strong. It’s a privilege because, you know, I always felt that there are some Outliers who define the term “Outlier” in many ways and you are clearly one. So thank you for talking to us. 

A.R: I’ll try my best. 

Pankaj: Let’s start from the start, like give us a sense of growing up. Where do you come from? I know this could be a little repetitive but it’s important for us to understand. 

A.R: Yes, I mean, I have said it a thousand times but for different audiences, different generations. So, I come from a musical family. My father passed away when I was very young, nine years old. So my mother kind of led me into music. She said, ‘Do what your father did and you have all the equipment that is left, so why don’t you take over?’ So I came into music like that, may be willingly or unwillingly, but you know later on, I have been thanking my mother with every breath of my life because she led me into this. [Otherwise] I could have been confused and gone into something else. 

When I was doing high school, she said, ‘Now you have to go full-fledged into music.’ We used to rent out equipment and that stopped — so my playing [music] was the main source of income. So I had to leave my 10+1 and make myself into a musician. And after a couple of years, I was playing with many maestros like M.S. Viswanathan, Ilaiyaraaja Sahab, Raj-Koti and Vijayanand. Then I started composing ad jingles and built my studio, Panchathan Record Inn — and it all started from there. 

Your heart gets broken a few times and then it gets stronger. It’s like love. You know, first love is different and then it becomes okay and then your heart becomes stronger — not insensitive, not apathetic, but it knows how to handle it. You just move on.

Pankaj: When did music really happened to you? 

A.R: I told you the answer. 

Pankaj: That’s around the time it all started but you know the thing about creating new things is that — I think you talked about it once — that you have to move on after you create something. 

A.R: Yes, exactly. 

Pankaj: What is that all about? 

A.R: Some people, you know, they just do an album for a year but when you are talking movie stuff, there are different inspirations, different line-ups of people and different demands…so, for instance, I am doing a period movie with classical instruments and suddenly I am doing a commercial movie and so I have to compartmentalise my brain and say, ‘This movie requires this; this movie require this.’ Over the years, it constantly happens like this. I will be doing a song for a modern movie but composing a background score for a period movie. So your mind gets used to switching. As you grow older, it’s slightly difficult but in those days — I really don’t know how I did it! — there would be four to five different things happening at the same time. I would be checking lyrics for another Hindi song, doing a background score for a Tamil movie, and then I would be doing an English movie soundtrack over the internet. 

I measure people like that: if the good is greater than the bad, then I am fine with it. If there is too much bad, then just stay away…

Pankaj: But is this what people call detachment or moving on or is it just professional compartmentalisation? 

A.R: I think what happens is when you start, of course you have to really emote it and you will get disappointments because they may not like it; you might feel like the whole world has ended and then you get used to it and then you feel detached and say, ‘Okay, I have done this, if they like it, it’s well and good.’ And even if they say yes or no, you are the same. [So you say] ‘Fine, I have done my bit, it’s come out of me with a lot of love’ and…and then I am looking at something else because your heart gets broken a few times and then it gets stronger. It’s like love. You know, first love is different and then it becomes okay and then your heart becomes stronger — not insensitive, not apathetic, but it knows how to handle it. You just move on. The formula of life is like that. And in a way it’s much better. In every spiritual [discourse], most of them talk about detachment, and detachment is good because it doesn’t hinder your future — because if you get disappointed or feel cheated, it stops you from progressing. So if you can just ‘take those bolts off’, your engine is moving. That’s how life is, right! And in music and in approvals, there are so many things which happen. You might love and do something beautiful but they say, ‘No, this is not what I want!’ And then you feel like, ‘Oh, what do we do now?’ So the main focus would be to see how the director or the person who commissions the music to you wants the music to be, because they come and trust you to become that, you know, to see the vision through their eyes — with your personality, of course. 

I think our whole is like an opportunity to become perfect — from imperfect to perfect. Maybe we were born perfect and we become imperfect because of the choices…

Pankaj: Easier said than done. When you are detached, how do you ensure passion into everything new that you are doing? What happens to that side? 

A.R: So when I am starting, I don’t think about whether it’s going to be rejected or liked. That’s a very negative thing. But if you give it your fullest and say, ‘This is the best thing I am going to do,’ and don’t think about the results…Like, if you are spiritual, you can do it for God, or you do it for the love of art. So many beautiful things have been done like that — take that famous painting by Michelangelo in the church, for instance. You know, there is a famous story that says that he was doing it not for anyone else to look at it but for God to look at it — in his mind. So music is such a thing, poetry is like that. But after a while, when you start getting aware, ‘Oh, I am going to start getting likes on this’, it kind of withers or it kind of I think corrupts the…You need to also know about that but your passion and your unconditional love towards the art has to be the main force. 

Pankaj: But there is something that people talk about you a lot, being real and being grounded. How do you stay sane? 

A.R: My past, the way I was brought up and the way destiny kind of taught me how life is going to be — without any expectations but at the same time giving it your full. So if you do something saying that it’s going to fail, it will fail. If you do something that it’s going to be the best thing you can ever do, it will be like that whether it gets approved or not; if the person takes it or another person is ready to take it, they can’t deny the fact, the beauty of it, but it’s not suiting to their taste. So constantly in my life it happens like, when my music comes out, they say, ‘What is this stuff?’, they throw it and then they go, ‘No, I like actually one’ and that one song will be different from each one. And because there is honesty on our part, when you produce it, not everything has to be what people want. Like when you go to the garden, you see different colours of flowers there. One day you feel like red, one day you feel like yellow: it’s risky but it’s interesting. 

All these things are very human. So when you think of all this, you feel nothing is worth it. So better be a source of goodness — in your work, in your character, in everything…smiling at people, even though you can’t and you are in pain — you don’t lose anything.

Pankaj: How do you find balance? You are successful and there are different ways of looking at success. But how do you find balance between what you are saying and the different definitions of success in the world? 

A.R: Yes, the definition of success is many things but then as long as you feel the internal voice, like you know the conscience saying, ‘This is right,’ and you also look at people…actually, if you are in a team, you handle it better. If you are alone and you are doing an album yourself, then it’s fine; but when you are having a team and a team is catering to a taste, so we have to adjust to certain things — not compromises — you have to tweak and amend certain things to be happy with the whole team. For instance, I am doing a movie for the actor Vijay and he is celebrated — it’s like you just tell his name, people shout for like five minutes. So that’s the kind of fan following, what Rajnikanth had, that he has got. So you have to be careful about everything. So, as a team, you just decide, ‘This is going to work’, so it’s much easier; everything is not in your [control], so you just place everything, ‘Oh, I like this, it’s very catchy, it will be good for us’, so fine. That’s where risk comes in.  

Pankaj: I have read and heard that there’s a very heavy Sufi influence in your life. I am a big listener and reader as well. Can you talk a little bit about that like, when you make decisions about life and work, what are your first principles? 

A.R: I think at a point everybody is searching for something and it’s personal and whatever comes to you, whatever light comes to you, you grab it and then you say, ‘Okay, this is it; I am following this.’ Or, ‘I am on this path or in this philosophy because it brings the best out of me and also help me in spreading beauty and love.’ So for me, at a particular time, I needed it and I had a low self-esteem and complexes and everything…I think this made me wholesome and made me think, ‘Okay, this whole philosophy for me brings the best out of me’ which I never thought existed like it’s bringing wealth inside from me which I never thought existed and I was marvelling at the things which were happening and then I felt like, ‘You are just a tool.’ You become a tool, you become non-existent and something comes upon you — that whole feeling…and sometimes I feel like, ‘Oh my God, how did this happen? How did this thought come in?’

Pankaj: How do you make decisions? What I am asking is, what are your first principles when you make decisions? Are there some broad do’s and don’ts around you in life and work? 

A.R: I mean there is a boundary, [and] within the boundary I have so much freedom. Nobody can say that there are no boundaries in life. You know, if you go to the 14th floor and say, ‘I can jump and still live’, you are a fool, you will crack your bones, right! So you know that’s a boundary. And when fast cars are approaching, you have to stop and then wait for the signals. So these are boundaries, we have rules like that. We have spiritual rules also. These are practical, physical things which we know will happen and how in spiritual rule, we cross this boundary, ‘This won’t happen’! So there are certain things and in your life experiences, you find out the truth — not because somebody told you, but because you experienced it, you internalised it, you manifested [it] and that happens. That’s when you realise the truth and say, ‘Okay, there’s truth in it and I can’t cross this boundary; if I cross it, this will hinder [progress].’ So that’s the fascinating 25 years of my life — or 26/27. 

I don’t have a photograph with Michael Jackson because I didn’t want to disturb him; he was so vulnerable at that time when I met him. Like, he opened up, we talked about so many beautiful things, but then, me not having a photograph with him is the most beautiful thing

Pankaj: Some things are ordinary, some things are extraordinary, depending on who you ask. What do you think is the difference? What divides them? Some people talk about luck, some people talk about hard work, some people have their own faith. From what you have seen, what you are learning or realising, what is that? 

A.R: I think first of all, we are realists. Everything is temporary. You are a finite person, at least your physical body is finite. Your soul, we have heard, we believe, is infinite, it’s ever lasting, it’s immortal; but in terms of your physical body, you can lose your hand, your head or you can get smashed…All these things are very human. So when you think of all this, you feel nothing is worth it. So better be a source of goodness — in your work, in your character, in everything…smiling at people, even though you can’t and you are in pain — you don’t lose anything. Sometimes, when you are a celebrity, it’s very hard. 

When I was younger, I could stand for selfies, photographs; I loved doing it because people are people and they make you, their love makes you, keep doing things; otherwise you can say, ‘It’s enough, I can retire’ but they want more and you say, ‘Okay, now I will sit and do it’ because people still want me, they still like my work, they still want to come for concerts. But as you get older, there could be physical things, your mind gets tired sometimes because you are completely involved in something very complex inside, trying to decode some stuff and the [interruption] ‘Sir, can I have a selfie?’ ‘I am not in that selfie mode, please’, my mind keeps crying inside but I say, ‘Yes, please come, let’s take it’. You just have to bite your teeth inside. It’s not that they are insensitive, it is what it is: it’s the reality that if you go out, you are an ‘item’ [laughs] and for people, like, I am seeing them for the first time in my life, maybe I will not see them again, so [they think], ‘Why not ask him?’ Some people, like when I was at Micheal Jackson’s, my mind was saying, ‘Don’t ask for a photograph. No, don’t do this.’ Because he was our generation’s biggest idol and I am so proud of it that I don’t have a photograph with Michael Jackson because I didn’t want to disturb him; he was so vulnerable at that time when I met him. Like, he opened up, we talked about so many beautiful things, but then, me not having a photograph with him is the most beautiful thing because…A photograph? Now, you can get an app! Still, I feel the love when they ask — you can see the genuine love in the eyes — and I say, ‘Okay, fine’. 

Pankaj: I am happy you brought up Michael Jackson because we all know and you have talked about this that you really adored him. Who are such people who have had an influence according to you or who you would have looked up to in your life and would  have taken something away from them when you met them? 

A.R: I think when I met him, I thought I would see a broken person but then I met a Michael Jackson who had a lot of hope and suddenly you know this 50 shows sold out like in an hour and that’s huge for a person who has been blamed and God knows what the truth is but he is what he is and I just read that he has given more than 600 million [dollars] as charity to children. That’s a huge thing and when you look at that, the goodness is greater than maybe whatever bad people talk about him…and I measure people like that: if the good is greater than the bad, then I am fine with it. If there is too much bad, then just stay away, but if there is a lot of goodness and lot of good things, then yes. After a while you have to go binary like this: is the good greater than the bad? 

If I was stupid enough to commit suicide long back, I would have missed out the journey, having a beautiful family, kids, now starting a school, spreading knowledge, and getting all these awards and becoming almost like the unofficial ambassador to film music, abroad or all over the world.

Pankaj: You have a sense of pragmatism which is very unique for an extraordinarily creative person like you… 

A.R: No, I think our whole life is like an opportunity to become perfect — from imperfect to perfect. Maybe we were born perfect and we become imperfect because of the choices and then you suddenly start…I feel like every person is born perfect but then we chose imperfectness but then we move on…some of us are lucky enough to move towards perfectness in character, in everything, in what we do, in our art, in our thinking. And because there is no one thing which is right — like one person is right and the other person is wrong — there is so much of subjectivity in this and everything. And when you are in the creative field and you are doing a movie and you have to bring in, you know, [this idea of] the more people, the better; the more people that like the song, the better. So how do you just get to a commonness in that without becoming bland? Having a character, a personality, and then not being bland is very important. 

Pankaj: I mean you are a model to all of us. I think you once talked about depression, wanting to commit suicide… 

A.R: Yes, I think all of us have that. It’s like inbuilt, hardwired. When you think about how life is demanding, even more nowadays, you can’t just walk around. You are constantly being photographed, everything you say, even a word, is misinterpreted, so you have to be super careful; it’s almost like walking on a string in-between skyscrapers. One word can destroy your life, which is also interesting; then you [have to] be careful — don’t say anything, keep quiet. If we keep quiet, [people say] ‘Why is he keeping quiet — such a big thing is happening?’ And if you say something, ‘Why is he saying something? Ask him to keep quiet!’ All of us, even kids, go through all this stuff. 

Pankaj: Is that why for a long time people used to describe you as reticent, shy, introvert? 

A.R: No, I don’t like to talk about things just for the sake of talking. If it means something, you say something, otherwise just keep quiet. And the best thing about life is, when you observe, you will learn much more than from talking — and learning makes you go for a longer time because sometimes, what you feel is wrong is actually right; sometimes, you see only one side of the story but there are always two sides of the story. 

Pankaj: Tell me a little bit about the battles you had with depression. It’s important because a lot of times when we are looking at someone like you from outside… 

A.R: Yes, I would say, if I was stupid enough to commit suicide long back, I would have missed out the journey, having a beautiful family, kids, now starting a school, spreading knowledge, and getting all these awards and becoming almost like the unofficial ambassador to film music, abroad or all over the world. All this would have gone but it’s fine, there are always options; if you don’t do it, somebody else is going to do it because the world always comes up with the best. But, I think, then that means you are courage-less. So to live a life, you also need courage, you have to feel good that ‘Yes, I am a lucky person because I have been born; I could have been out somewhere in the celestial zone, as just a soul, but I am born.’ And there is a reason for it and let’s make that reason the best thing ever. 

Pankaj: Final few minutes. I am enjoying this but I don’t want to go on for ever — you have to sleep. From where do you derive this courage and strength you are talking about? 

A.R: So, when you study, you ask the main question: What is this world? How was it created? And why was I created? Why was I born in this particular place, I could have been born anywhere? And then you seek to find out these answers. It might take a lifetime. Then sometimes, you are led when you ask…You know Jalāl ad-Dīn Rūmī said that, ‘What you are seeking is seeking you.’ So the moment you seek something, that seeks you, and I have found that very, very interesting. Sometimes, you suddenly think of someone and then there’s an SMS coming from them and you say, ‘Is this telepathy or what!’ Uncanny. It’s like I would say 15-16 times in the past 5 years, you just think about somebody and somebody in Bosnia or somebody whom you met in London around 20 years back and then, Boom! It just comes. It’s just that you feel strange, that there is something more than all these physical, man-invented things; that there is something else which is there and you start believing what you don’t know and that search is still going on. I am so fascinated about different ideologies, different things about spirituality, because music in a way is the same thing: you don’t know where, how your heart stops at certain things and repeats the thing and then the song is born. Whereas if you are just formulaic, it just becomes boring. These things are unexplainable in music: there are certain phrases, certain ways that you feel you when are changing harmonies, the way you express a word and you lengthen it, maybe for other people it may be the most stupid thing like, ‘Why is he spending so much time on this?’ but then that could be the secret for them to listen to it. Everybody sees certain things but I always see what is in between the lines and those are the things which are not taught — you just have to feel it. 

Pankaj: I empathise with what you are saying because some of the stuff that you have created does touch this very cord. A couple of things more. Creativity — different ways of measuring it. Some would measure it in popularity or utility. Every time you invent something or the freshness or uniqueness of it, what do you think of it as? 

A.R: Very simple. I started with a sound which I never had before. It all came at that particular point, that inspiration when I met Mani Ratnam and his movies, how he made his movies, inspired me a lot and that made me do a lot of things which I never had before. But I developed that because of the respect I had for him, for the movie script and how he explained and then in the same way when the next team came in, inspiration about them, then Hindi makers like Subhash Ghai, Ram Gopal Varma, Imitiaz Ali, Rakeysh Mehra, Ashutosh Gowarikar…all fantastic scripts. You know we never talked about hits, we just talk about the emotions. Sometimes I would do 20 ideas for them and when they listen I just walk out and they come back and say, ‘I like the 5th one, I like the 7th one, I like the 9th one, I like the 13th one…’ and most of the times what I would love, they would love, I think 90% of the times. Sometimes they surprise me like, ‘Oh, I never thought that was good enough.’ Or, ‘No, I like it.’ So it’s a good team work, it’s a good bouncing-back thing. I still do that, [though] younger people have come in now and say, ‘Sir, you did something like this in 2006, this movie or recently or back in the jingle days, so I go back to references or they play me something which they like [and say], ‘I like the song but don’t mistake me but something is…’ So then you strive. How do I take that? He can express it that way, it’s easy for them rather than telling me in the musical language that can you do a Misra or Charukesi  with a nishadam which is shudh (pure). Like he or she knows the way to express it. 

Pankaj: You know the world is changing, what with the technology, the tools and the man-versus-machine kind of debate going on. In your field, in every field, what do you make of that? 

A.R: Okay, I didn’t finish my answer. The previous answer was, you asked me like how do you decide, so we talked about other things. So I have to like something which I have done and judge myself back that, ‘I feel good about this’; otherwise, I never give it to them. So, in everything, in music, in mixing, when we mix things or when we produce things, ‘Let’s stop here, I think it’s good enough’, even though it’s not filled up or if it’s over-filled, ‘Let’ take it out.’ So there is a reverse process also sometimes when you overdo things. When you try to overdo things, then you feel something is wrong. Then you just throw it and go do something…the simplest thing will be the most appealing thing and even now, if I like something and even if people don’t relate to it, a couple of years later they will relate to it like ‘Okay, you got it now, great!’ Many things in the recent times they missed it when it came in, and five years later you hear them say, ‘Oh my God, when did this release?’ Because people are also busy now, there are so many things…Before, I had to just open a letter or a newspaper or a magazine but now there are like 15 things constantly engaging and asking you, ‘Come, look at me!’, right? 

Pankaj: You answered my question about man and machine right now. But again, there is a man-versus-machine question brewing up. Do you think it will trump creativity in the way we are talking about it now? 

A.R: I think creativity is connected to the brain and how we connect to the emotions and how we respond emotionally to something: it could be dance or melody. And sometimes you do something beautiful and they find something common in it and they reject it and say, ‘Oh, actually that is wrong but this part of it is very nice’ — they don’t know how to dissect it when it first releases. I go through this stuff all the time but it’s good to keep you on your feet. So we do all the filters and see — and that critique which happens outside happens before, internally, ‘No, that’s bad, let’s change it,’ and then finally it comes to a portion where it’s good enough to go. 

Pankaj: The spiritual quest can be quenchless depending on what’s the lifetime you are talking about but the music that you create, does it sometimes bring mediocrity or boredom? Does it happen at all? 

A.R: It will happen if you do the same thing like I have finished Rockstar and somebody else comes and says, ‘I want to do something  with the guitar’ and I will be like, ‘Oh, I have done that already’. Now people are really smart, you know that you can’t take something again but those days, it was very common, like I did with a certain actor and then five other people came in with the same actor and it didn’t work because the same passion was not given as the first one. Then the good thing for me is how things opened up in the West. When I was doing like 12 movies a year, I think it was 1999 when I moved, I had a score for 12 movies, it’s the biggest, then I said, ‘this is not going to happen, it’s too much’ and after 10 years I don’t want to look like a worn out person. So I went to England [for an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical], even though it was not a money thing at all; it was a sense of adventure and learning and what could be the next idea of thinking palette. And that helped me a great deal to open up, not only about music but about life, about people, all over the world, so it was the melting point of so many different things. And that kind of helped me for even doing Slumdog Millionaire, going to Hollywood, so I have to thank Shekhar Kapoor and Andrew Lloyd Webber. 

Pankaj: Final question. You know, a lot of people — from Google founders to Bill Gates to anyone — after a point in time, they want to pick a battle they want to conquer: fighting AIDS or mortality or space…look at Elon Musk or anyone else. What is it that you want to conquer and, secondly, do you think of legacy? Do you think of people like R.D. Burman or Kishore Kumar — they have outlived their lives clearly — do you imagine that scenario ever? 

A.R: Who cares what happens after you die [laughs]…One thing I was concerned was that I had built up all the studios and in different cities, so I told my kids that if you don’t learn music, all this is going to become rental stuff and will get worn out and will be gone — so you guys have to learn something to use it because it doesn’t come easy. Now you have it on a platter. Initially, they didn’t care about my thing, but now I think they are slowly thinking about it. My son just released his first single yesterday and today he came to me and said, ‘Daddy, I am very scared’. Before the release, I asked him, ‘Are you scared?’ and he had said, ‘No, not really.’ And now that it is released — it’s very interesting to see. I told him, ‘You don’t have to be scared; you finished your thing, so take it step by step: don’t try to drink the ocean in a day. Take it drop by drop, and it will show you the way.”

Pankaj: But there is no playbook for that! 

A.R: Yeah, exactly! And his experiences will shape his career, but I think basically they should have some goodness inside, I think they have that, because I have seen a lot of people when they are young, when they have money and fame…I think from the beginning, I insisted they should give to charity through their own hands. And when I go, they have to deal with all the people, you know, touching them, and that I think has shaped them and now they are unshakeable…This is very, very important for me to tell them that this is the reality and if you can become a source of helping, that’s your foundation, that gives you the reason to do things; otherwise, the reason becomes like Satan’s reason like, ‘Oh, I am earning money, I am going to do this.’ Yes, fun is all fine but after a while, nothing makes sense unless you become a reason for goodness for others, serving humanity. I know it’s a cliché but it’s the truth. 

Pankaj: It’s such a privilege to have this conversation with you A.R. and you are enlightening. Thank you so much. 

A.R: Thank you.