“You just have to be the hardest working person in the room.” - Brooklyn Decker

Checkout this week's new episode of the #NoLimitsPodcast featuring the co-founders of Finery, Whitney Casey and Brooklyn Decker:

On today’s episode, we catalog our music, our photos, our budgets, so why not our clothes? You’re about to meet two founders who thought just that. Actress and model Brooklyn Decker joined forces with former news anchor Whitney Casey to create Finery. It’s an app that automatically organizes your closet digitally. It keeps track of your online shopping, and the best part? It even creates outfits. It builds them for you. So for those ‘Clueless’ fans out there, think of Cher Horowitz’ closet 2.0. The friends turned business partners are building the brand and the technology from the ground up. So how did they turn that big idea into actual reality? Here are Finery founders Whitney Casey and Brooklyn Decker.

RJ: Brooklyn Decker and Whitney Casey Welcome to No Limits!

BD & WC: Thank you. We're glad to be here!

RJ: I'm thrilled to have you with us. So you are the co-founders of Finery.

WC: Yes.

RJ: You came up with this idea how?

BD: Take it away lady.

WC: Well I was using a bunch of different apps like TripIt and Mint for your banking, and Spotify of course like we all do for our music. And I just remember thinking why is this not available for your clothes? Because every time you buy something online it should be able to go into your wardrobe. So Brook and I always wanted to do something together. We've always thought we should start a company. And then every time we started thinking of ideas they were just...

BD: They were bad ideas. And frankly they were all ideas that were meant to sell stuff to women. And there are plenty of people doing that really well. Why do we need more in the market? And there's really nothing out there that's advocating for consumers. And so we thought how cool would it be to actually make something that is a service to users that sort of -- I would not say defends them, but advocates for them in a market where they're being told to buy buy buy buy buy all the time.

RJ: You guys met at a party... Or a girls weekend?

WC: Yes. Girls weekend.

BD: It was like it was like a friendship blind date where a friend of ours got a lot of women from different cities together in one place and said I think these women would mesh really well together. And Whitney and I both at the time were living in Austin and immediately gravitated toward one another and have been friends ever since. But it was kind of a cool way to really approach a girls week. And it was like, I'm going to get a bunch of strangers together. I think we’ll all get along. It was like a potluck dinner for an entire weekend.

WC: But for friends.

RJ: That’s a great idea.

BD: We owe her.

WC: She's amazing.

RJ: What was the reason that you wanted to start something initially?

WC: Well I think being an entrepreneur is one of the most empowering things that you can be because you can work on your own schedule. It ends up being that you actually use way more time than a 9 to 5 job. So you work on your own schedule but you work around the clock. And I think that there's also just a passion inside of me for this type of company because it's really surrounding making the life of women easier. And Brook and I both really gravitate towards that. We're always the friend that's like 'you should try this. It works so-- you can you can get things done faster! Or better, or quicker!'

BD: And I think to be able to I think something that's really interesting about entrepreneurship for us was 'Let's control our schedule. Let's build something from the ground up. Let's really take ownership over something. Let's take control over something. Let's put something really good into the world.' And I think when you're in media that's not always a luxury that's afforded to you. You're sort of on someone else's time and dime and at the mercy of someone else thinking that you're cool enough to work you know. It is true! It just is.

WC: You don't have to be cool enough to work if you're an entrepreneur.

BD: You just have to be the hardest working person in the room and I think that's something that excited both of us.

RJ: I really love that by the way - you don't have to be cool enough. You have to just do what you love. OK so the two of you come together. You work together. You're friends. How did you make that relationship work for the business?

BD: So Whitney and I are not afraid to argue with each other. And to stand up to each other and to disagree with each other. And that's kind of what our friendship was based on. This just brutal honesty and holding each other accountable and keeping our expectations for one another very high. And so we had that rapport already and we knew that we could go to one another and there would be no sugarcoating. And so when we talked about going into business together I just knew-- we knew that this could be a really open honest and real relationship where we could really keep each other in check. Not to mention I feel like our strengths complement each other really well.

WC: Totally.

BD: So we never questioned it. I mean we had obstacles when we were friends before starting this company we got through them really well and we came out the other side better and so I think, you know, it's kind of like a marriage. It really is.

WC: Sometimes we talk more than we talk to our husbands. In fact, the other day it was your it was your birthday and I had this long day and we spent an hour and a half with Andy on the on speaker and he was just like 'oh god these women.'

BD: We had our anniversary the other night. Andy and I did and I was under the covers in bed slacking Whitney so that Andy wouldn't see my phone on because it was our anniversary and he'd be like get off your phone. Stop working, I need one night from you. It's our anniversary!

WC: It is not like we're on a group text like 'hey' sending funny…We're like OK what about this wire frame. I don't like this wording. I think we should try.

BD: What do you think about this copy? I don't like it we are changing it.

WC: The basis of it is also just respect. As a friend, I respect Brooklyn. But as an intellectual and as an entrepreneur and a businesswoman there is a level of respect that you can we can be open and honest with each other because we both really respect each other at the root.

RJ: Have your feelings ever been hurt in the relationship and how did you move past that?

BD: Oh we've pissed each other off for sure. We do it fairly regularly. Something ridiculous. So this week we're having our launch event and we're doing a big rebrand. We got the logos, we ordered napkins, this is what we're doing. That’s what’s so funny. As an entrepreneur you think about all of the big ideas and started going company and growth. But no you're ordering napkins with your logo for the party. And so I was responsible for ordering the napkins and I ordered them and they're getting here the day before the party and Whitney was like, 'if this is left to last minute then you know that I'm going is going to take control of the situation and it’s going to stress me out.'. And I said Whitney, stay in check. We just got our logos the napkins are going to be there. Yes I was delayed. Do not worry about it. But we get into those two things.

WC: And I said, I ordered them three weeks ago for our first launch.

BD: And I said no you didn't. We get into those things often. But they're funny and we laugh about them. And at the end, we were actually it was on a slack thread with our Head of Marketing and at the end she sent us a picture of her holding a glass of wine like that was the perfect ending to the conversation.

WC: Yes.

BD: So you're going to get stressed out and you're going to have those moments where the pressure’s on and everyone's hustling to the finish line. And you know, something we missed or one of us will mess up, most likely me, Brooklyn. And we just we keep each other in check and we get it done. It's scrappy.

WC: But I also do not have a full time job as an actor on a Netflix show and two children. OK so the napkins…  

BD: The napkins will be there!

WC: I did also have the old napkins from our old brand shipped to us just in case.

RJ: Whitney, I mean as a journalist myself your background in media as a journalist is really intriguing to me. Were you, along the way as a journalist, thinking 'I got to break out of this?'

WC: I think as a journalist you're so entrepreneurial anyway. Every story is a little entrepreneurial get. And I think just like Brooklyn said, I really definitely wanted the freedom of not being 40 and being looked at as 'well you're 40, what are you going to do next?' Because in television, I'm sorry but I mean, the face for TV doesn't last very long if you're a woman.

BD: Well that was your experience. You were told you had an expiration date.

WC: Yeah.

BD: As most of us are in media.

WC: And that's just…

BD: That is dark. But it's true.

WC: And you can be as old as you want and be an entrepreneur. You can be as wrinkly as you want. You can be whatever you want as long as you are the hardest worker. And I always say to it's like not about passion. It's about obsession. And you have to have an obsession for this.

RJ: What is the difference between passion and obsession?

WC: Obsession is you… You can't breathe without this. Everything you see, it's like when you start seeing your branding everywhere. You start seeing a window and you're like that looks like our new branding. And you really want to talk about it with everybody. And it's not like you're trying to proselytize. It's like, this is the only way.

RJ: What's been the biggest setback and how did you overcome it at this point?

BD: I think, personally, we built this product and what we do is we get your closet online. Basically like the ‘Clueless’ closet on your phone. And when we were building it, we thought this is that aha moment we are getting your closet online. This is it. This is incredible technology. We have a patent. This has never been done before. And then we did it and people loved it. But our users were like cool. Now we want styling. Now we will be able to add to a calendar feature. Now we want to know when our favorite things go on sale. Now we want you to dress us. And we thought our job was done.

WC: That totally…

BD: Turns out that was phase 1 of a multi-phase product. So I think for me it was kind of thinking that we had that big product. We had that aha moment with our user and then realizing oh no no no no no no no this is just the start of the climb.

WC: Yeah they want more.

BD: Yeah.

RJ: Which is always a good thing when they want more but that takes work I mean look at a company like Facebook right now trying to figure out how to sort of go through all of their technology and weave in all of these new elements. Not easy.

BD: Not easy. And you have to iterate quickly on user feedback. That's the thing, that's the great thing about technology is that you can move quickly. But because of that, users are really demanding and they want what they want. They want it now. It never ends. It never ends. And that's a good thing. I think it makes the product better.

WC: We have to start approaching products and tech products specifically as to what women want and what women need and how are we going to make something that's going to build our lives in a better way. But there are not many women who are thinking about tech that way. And what I would love to do is I try to encourage any woman who feels there's a huge problem that she needs to have solved-- and if she has no idea how to build tech, which neither of us did, that she still can.

RJ: How did you start on that front? With the building of the technology after you had the idea.

WC: Well the first idea was actually to go approach retailers and say 'hey after you check out, to basically onboard people that way. 'After you check out add this to your closet.' But then we started thinking about scale. You'd have to hire a ton of sales people, you have to get retailers to do something that they've never done before and that was just not scalable. So then about a year prior to starting the company I had met this young man he had dropped out of college. And he gave me an elevator pitch in an elevator about his app. And it was a news app and I was in news so it made sense. I mean it was perfect. And then his news app didn't work out. And of course we contacted him and said let's get started on this. Let's build a prototype so we bootstrapped put our own money in, built a prototype, and I mean it was really janky. I mean it was like we tried to take a look at three receipts to see what we could get from them and we got like 20 percent. But once we knew that we could get 20 percent of the items out of out of these receipts, we knew that if you actually build it you could build a system that could pull things from all receipts at some point.

RJ: Because that's kind of how the whole thing works. It pulls from the receipts in your history and then populates the app with the clothing that you have purchased over time.

BD: Yes exactly. Wow. You got it!

RJ: This is how-- I read other people's things all the time and I'm like 'oh I wish I had said it that way.'

WC: Yeah that is good.

RJ: So OK so you come up with this idea. You find a guy who pitched you in an elevator on the technology, you build it out. It's janky in the beginning.

WC: Very janky.

RJ: How do you sell it to investors?

BD: We didn't sell it at that point. And when it was janky we didn't sell it. We just built on it and we kept getting better and we kept making sure our technology could adjust to these receipts. And we kept going back further in the purchase history. And so we really tried to work and grow on that janky technology to make it substantial, reliable technology. And once we did that, we had a beta and we sent it out to friends and family and said OK you guys sign up let us know what you think.

RJ: How did you know it was ready to send to friends and family?

WC: It's never ready. It's never ready. It was-- it basically you have to kick the kid out the door and basically take off the training wheels and be like 'go.' Because it's never going to be ready and it's never going to be perfect. And so that's kind of where I just say all right let's jump. Time to jump and what's so great about having Brook is she's like that. She will balance me on everything but she will also be like let's do it.

BD: And that's what we had to do. And we're dealing with that now because we're doing a big re-launch and re-design and we've got to get it perfect. We've got to get a perfect. But sometimes you just got to get it out there and get the users on and see what they have to say about it. And that's what we did with friends and family, and with our beta. And we got a lot of good feedback from our beta. We sent it out to a lot of influencers and said OK you guys are people that women go to follow for style or for advice or inspiration. You know what your followers like. I feel like your feedback would be invaluable. So we went out to a lot of influencers before we launched and got their feedback. So we were able to take a lot of that feedback and really grow the site from it. And then we launched publicly. A year ago.

WC: Yes. And that's when we had to sell it to investors. And that still wasn't easy. It wasn't janky anymore we had users, we had traction. But we also don't have mind share. And if you think about mind share of-- if there's only 7 percent of venture capitalists that are females it's very hard to have-- and not to their fault, it’s just hard for a man to understand why it takes a woman's mind share to get dressed.

BD: It was definitely something that, you know for most males who just go and pick out the navy slacks the navy jacket on the white shirt they didn't quite relate to that problem. And our lead investor is a male and a lot of males. The good news is that a lot of males want to invest in women. Women have 80 percent of the household spending power. Women are coming out and supporting technology and films and businesses more than ever before. So there are men who want to invest in them but they have a harder time connecting to what our paying points are.

WC: You know, what the products will do and why they should care about it. And of course then you get the obligatory, they go to their wives and say 'would you use this?’

RJ: Right. A lot of women on No Limits will say that they go out and they pitch investors initially and they get frustrated by the fact that the investors, predominantly men, will say well let me talk to my wife about this. And then all of a sudden you’re not the one selling the idea. It's a game of telephone through the investor to his wife.

BD: Correct.

WC: And most investor’s wives are not our users. And most products are not built for investors wives. If you are a venture capitalist you are definitely in the top.

RJ: You are rolling in it!

WC: You are rolling. Show me the money. And so the investor’s wife is not going to be necessarily the-- I rather them go out on the street.

RJ: How did you break through then? How did you get through?

WC: Actually the investor's executive assistants.

BD: This was genius.

RJ: Somebody else who was it?

BD: This was genius.

RJ: We had another, we actually had another company here tell us they did the same thing.

BD: So Whitney would find…We would obviously be in touch with the assistant, the executive assistant to the investor and Whitney would get them signed up on Finery before we walked in the door. And you would start a rapport with them and you would get their feedback. Well they had been on it for 3-4 weeks and had been communicating with us about it and it had a personal experience with it and loved it. And so that's how we made a lot of headway with these investors and that's just really good advice for anyone trying to raise.

RJ: The women from BaubleBar.

WC: Yes. I was just going to tell you. It wasn't an original idea.

BD: Yes that's right.

WC: It was the women from BaubleBar that sent these bracelets out ahead of time to all of the females in the office. And then I learned from those women and just said hey I'm going to get these EAs in Finery. They're going to… And also the associates or whatever female is in the office.

RJ: I would imagine that when you guys were meeting with the investors initially they would say 'Brooklyn you're an actor. Former model. Whitney, former journalist anchor…What makes you think you can start a company?'

WC: They did. They actually did more insultingly, you were way nicer. They said 'why is this not a hobby.' How can you prove to us this isn't your hobby?

BD: Yeah. No joke. It was a meeting on Whitney's birthday she's like I'm sitting here pitching you on my birthday.

WC: And she was four weeks from having her second child. Yeah and so not allowed to travel really but we were doing it.

BD: I was in the no travel zone and I was breaking a lot of pregnancy rules.

WC: Yes. So we said no this is not a hobby. It's an obsession.

BD: I mean I should not even say it, it was so dark. Someone said we should be partying on yachts and we should let our Head of Product take care of the site. And we were like who do you think we are? How well do you think this company is doing? Can I borrow your yacht? Yes there was a lot of judgment thrown our way but I think moreover we had a lot of people who were just really excited to learn about what we were doing and.

WC: Because we also vetted, highly vetted the investors we even chose to meet with. We did. We really did some diligence on who the type of people would be to invest in a company like this who typically invests in women. And who would understand the space. I would say that's what you really want to do as for advice out there, is don't just meet with anybody dumb money is exactly that and it will vex you for the rest of your life. You have to get investors that are already kind of behind all of this. And we really, you know, we would ask what percentage of your portfolio-- if we couldn't find out has female entrepreneurs or CEOs. I mean it's small, it's always going to be small but at least they know. That's important.

RJ: You both work in different cities.

WC: Yes. Very inefficient.

RJ: So you are in Austin and you're in New York.

BD: Yes.

RJ: So how do you make that work?

BD: Slack.

WC: Brook is the only person I know who slacks from a big time set. She is slacking on the set. Which I think is kind of a cool thing, she's sitting next to Jane Fonda in her chair slacking to developers.

RJ: Has Jane Fonda ever asked what you're doing?

BD: Yes yes yes.

RJ: I am building an empire, Jane.

BD: Yes. And actually one of her former producers is actually-- has her own fund in New York and is one of our investors. Coincidentally, totally unrelated and I told Jane about this. And she's like so what is this company you talk about? And I told her about Finery and I said like we give you a return notification. So if you have to return something we let you know you have three days one day whatever it is left to return this item it's so great because women always forget to return things. And she goes 'returns what are you talking about? Once own your clothing you own your clothing. Who would you be returning it to?' And I was like oh you're not an online shopper. OK. I am an avid online shopper.

RJ: It is almost as fun to return things as it is to buy them.

BD: You are not our user. Got it. But yes she has asked me about what I'm doing on set. And yeah I mean when we started this together it was with the understanding that do you have to work in L.A. and I am based in Austin and you are going to be with a team in New York. And Whitney said it so well. You know I think it actually makes us stronger as co-founders because she's in the trenches everyday with our team. And you can get so hung up on the minutia, right? Everything every problem becomes so granular and even if we're talking about our copy -- we get caught up on where a comma goes and copy you know, you just get caught up on the tiniest of things. So to have someone who's kind of out of that space who can take a fresh look at something. You know look at something with a fresh pair of eyes I think really helps the product.

WC: But it also helps that person can't be an adviser that person has to be obsessed also because that person knows every personality of everyone there and knows everything that's going on every day but has not been there all day.

BD: Exactly.

WC: And so you come home with the kids and you've been with the kids all day you want to kill them sometimes. And you want to be like ahhh they're going to say that again. Whereas someone else can come in the situation and say 'wait let's take a look at this' and that's kind of how we roll. Brook is in charge of growth and community. So growth is, there’s two parts to having a tech product that is a productivity platform or social media or messaging or anything. One is growth. You have to show a hockey stick. Good nice growth. And then you also have to show engagement. And so engagement has to do with the product and how the product’s working and how efficiently. Engagement means people come once and they keep coming back. And then growth means people come once and they tell their friends. So the two of us have sort of divided that. Those are equal things growth and engagement. So Brook is taking on growth and I'm taking on engagement. And we both have ideas for the other one but we've kind of both have to say okay if you don't do this part, this part won't work and if you don't grow then it doesn't matter how engaged we are.

RJ: Such a good point. What's the toughest lesson you've had to learn along the way?

WC: Gosh. Good question. I think one of the toughest ones, I mean honestly I can just say it was very hard for me, the fundraising. It was the first time that I felt like being a woman and I'm going to say it. I mean, it just felt like being a woman was a detriment. And I just I'd never come into a room where I felt like I didn't own it. I didn't own the topic. I just always felt very confident in my life. I was an athlete and had been very successful in my career. And this was the first time that I felt like I was getting a ding just by walking in. And that just, I really had a hard time with that because I am also 40 now. And so there was just this point in me that said, that really doesn't feel good. And I couldn't get over it for the first time. I'm glad we practiced with people that we knew because I was definitely a little bit hyperbolic in terms of just being very emo about it. I would leave the meeting and be super emo. But then I got my sea legs and with Brook with me and we had great feedback and we started. And also we were very selective about who we saw. So we didn't get some of those automatic jerks. There were some along the way. But besides that, I mean to me that was so surprising. I never thought in my career ever that I would really be facing that again.

RJ: Again? You had it early on?

WC: Well I mean I was in news. That is where I mean, look at all what has come out in #metoo with news. It's just been, we've been our whole lives in television news, it is like anchorman on steroids. That is the guy that you work with.

BD: That sounds very entertaining. I'm kidding. This is going to sound terrible. Coming from fashion and modeling find this world including fundraising to be a more respectful experience than most of my experiences because you're actually having a conversation and someone's actually listening to what you're saying and that in itself is such a gift.

WC: It's all perspective.

BD: Isn't that sad? But it's true. I thought I left so energized. We're sitting here having a conversation about smart things we're talking about something that is really interesting that we're all passionate about. They care about what we're doing.

WC: True.

BD: Of course, we were met with a ton of bias going in some rooms. But yeah with my history I was really energized by the process which is -- not saying lot about modeling in general.

RJ: Brooklyn, what was the toughest lesson for you?

BD: I... This is going to sound sort of-- It was-- the toughest lesson was really having to be incredibly responsive to users. Because I think I personally felt like I knew what they were going to want. And they told me that I didn't know what they wanted. And that was surprising. And I had a really check myself and say OK great you do love this. But clearly, there's more that you need to make the experience with our product perfect. And that was that was hard for me working so so so so so hard to again reach what we thought was the top of a mountain only to be told no, yeah great, this is the beginning. It really put things into perspective for me and like it was it was kind of a gut check. And I think I'm better for it now and I think as a result of that we have done a surveys and a ton of testing and we hear from our users regularly and we check in with them to figure out what's working and what's not working we're starting this new community called the finest for our most loyal users just to get their feedback. So it's changed the way we approach interacting with our users. But that was a surprise.

WC: Coming up with the name the Finery was actually really funny.

RJ: I was I was going to ask you about the name The Finery in the first place. How did you come up with that?

WC: Well it was actually Dan Rather that came up with it.

RJ: Really?

WC: Yes, Dan. I worked with Dan a year before we started this company. And Dan would always say, I mean he just has such-- you know he comes from a time where people did wear finery.

RJ: And words matter.

WC: Yes words really did matter. And he's so great he would always say oh you know Whitney you always come to the office dressed in all your finery. And so finery meaning your regalia, your best clothes, your best foot forward. And I just-- we loved that word. And both of us kept playing around with it and it's an old timey word you know.

BD: We talked about wanting an old timey word.

WC: Yeah we love old timey words we're kind, of even though -- I mean we're both sort of little old souls. So when he said that and we went to go get the actual domain and it wasn't available but finery with two f's was available. So we're like let's, take that and we did. And it was $12.50. We were like that works. You know it's good enough.

BD: And we made the logo to look like a 3-D f. So it was like two f's but it looked like one 3-D f. You know we're making a play on the double f.

WC: And then one of our investors who has this beautiful European accent she said 'so this week in f-Finery...' And I was like oh god she just said f-Finery.

BD: We can't have people saying f-bomb Finery. I was like that's not going to work. No.

RJ: That is not very old timey.

WC: Before the launch we ended up just buying the domain. It actually was available when I said it wasn't available I mean for the $12.50 that we wanted to pay so we ended up paying for it.

RJ: So did you secretly go in and get the-- because there's always that concern if you let the person who actually owns the name know what you're trying to do then they're going to jack up the price.

WC: The price was high, the price was high. The thing is that doesn't work anymore. So anybody out there who's trying to sneak and get a student to get it. Hey I'm working on a project. We had one of the guys who still had a Georgetown address. He wrote to them and said hey I'm a student I'm looking for. Right. The whole thing that everybody does and the guy was like yeah it's still X Y and Z amount of dollars, thanks. He had heard that before. And he had this site since 1989.

RJ: And those are a lot of fees he had to pay to own that.

BD: And we had to pay them all back.

RJ: Worst advice you've received along the way.

WC: Worst advice. Oh definitely this whole recruiting situation. Not hiring a recruiter. This is not good advice. Somebody told me that it's 50 percent your network, and 50 percent a recruiter. I would say I have been to so many coffees, so many cocktails, trying to recruit people and I don't have a network of tech people so I'm going to need a recruiter. It should be 50 percent network and 50 percent recruiter… If you are a tech entrepreneur or you are a tech founder. So just do yourself a favor if you're non-technical co-founder then just hire a recruiter. They know what they're doing. They can really suss out the subterfuge for you and get to the crux of it. And then you will build your network but not right now.

RJ: How long did it take you before you decided, no it's recruiter time.

WC: It is just happening right now.

BD: In this moment because we're actually meeting with someone after this.

RJ: You are meeting a recruiter?

BD: No no no we're meeting with someone who could potentially…

RJ: A potential employee?

WC: Yes yes yes we actually have… So right after this, I was like Brook is in town, we're going to go meet this guy. He's reached out to us. He's a UX product person who worked at a really big company and reached out to us. In the meantime we're recruiting like this: 'hey do you want a job.'

BD: Yeah.

WC: Any time we're in the news we're always trying to find female coders actually. Female product designers, female product people, female data scientists. We're really trying to walk our talk and hire females.

RJ: Well anyone who is listening right now if you'd like to send a resume to me at [email protected], I'll send it to you guys or your recruiter.

WC: Thank you. What percentage are you taking?

RJ: I will not take a cut at all -- it is all on the house.

WC: But I would say that there are other big life lessons that I've learned along the way that are not about recruiters. I think what I touched on earlier about passion versus obsession that you-- that all things that you are going into if-- you really have to find your passions. And then when they become obsessions you have to understand how to channel those and really be efficient and really get the best out of everybody around you who, it's not their obsession but you better make sure it's their passion. So everyone you work with, it doesn't have to be their obsession but it better be their passion. That's the litmus test. And if they aren't then that should be one of your pillars for hiring and for just even your friends, like even the people that you keep around you. Because they will continue-- You will be like an outlet that they continue, you keep putting in and they keep pulling out the energy. And you keep putting in and they keep pulling out. And so think about it was like a well or an outlet or whatever you have to be able to they have to be energizing you and putting it right back in and filling up the well. Otherwise it's like your job is going to be empty at the end of every day.

RJ: There's a lot of people who look great on paper but if they're not going to be loyal if they're not on board with the mission. If they don't love it and care about it, then they can have all the degrees and all of the great experience in the world. They are not going to be your best employee.

WC: Yup and they'll run when it gets tough. And that's why I also say you've got to give equity to people who you employ. So it's very important to have them own it not only intellectually but also you know with stocks.

RJ: I want to do a full other conversation with both of you another time about that. About hiring and stock and how you even think through that question because I think that's a huge question for founders.

WC: It's a big deal. I really both of us really believe you have to own part of the company. You've got to or otherwise why are you working all these crazy hours like it's yours too. The company has to be yours too.

RJ: Brooklyn, worst advice?

BD: Worst advice. I feel like I've been fed a lot of bad advice over the years. None of which is applied to this specifically but probably just stay in your lane and do what you know. I think a lot of people get that advice.

RJ: How early in your life did you get that?

BD: Um, pretty early. I mean I moved to New York at 18 to model. So I was kind of, you know, I sort of threw myself right into the professional world. Young, I was probably 20 when I received that advice. And I think it's because I was doing the cliché transition into acting. Fortunately it worked for me but it was you know it was something that a lot of people did and it didn't work for a lot of people or people just thought just you know-- just look pretty and that's it. You know for a camera have that be it. And so I would say that was probably the worst advice I received which just kind of stay in my lane.

RJ: Did you consider doing that at any point?

BD: No never.

RJ: There was no sense of this person might have been around longer than I have. Maybe I should--

BD: No. I just I always thought it was ridiculous advice because I think you look at most people and they've lived several different lives or done several different things and to me it was never a possibility to listen to that. I thought it was a little ridiculous but you know what it is I think ultimately people are giving that advice, I don't know if they mean-- I don't-- it's not that they're trying to hurt you or give you bad advice. I think they honestly see like you have security in one avenue, stick to that. This is solid, you have a job, you're making an income, this is reliable. Stick with this. Which is funny because modeling is not reliable. But they were like stick to this and I think they believe that they're doing someone a favor instead of really encouraging someone to stretch their minds a little bit, and push themselves and test those boundaries and do all those things that make us so great, just people in general. So I would say is probably my worst advice. A lot of people told me to lose weight which is just bad advice.

WC: Oh god.

BD: Yeah a lot of people said that back in the day.

RJ: If you had taken the advice, the stay in your lane advice, what would have happened?

BD: I mean I… And there's nothing wrong with this but I probably would be married with my children which I have at home. You know, not working not doing this, and that I feel like is probably the hardest job in the world. I have now with two children have the utmost respect for stay at home moms. I bow down to you. But I think that probably-- had I listened to that advice and taken it to heart, I don't think I ever would have pushed myself. But fortunately the advice seemed a little ridiculous at the time so I didn't listen.

WC: She also had great role models - her mom was a hardcore nurse and.

BD: Both my parents working parents.

WC: That I think, and was here with her in New York when she came and was 18. I think having good female role models was very helpful. And she's become a really good female role model too because of that. I think you are a role model.

BD: I mean I think-- yeah my mom had this rule because I started so young, I started at 16 and she said you will never go to a photo shoot or on a trip or out of the city or in New York or anything without me until you're an adult. So until you're 18 you will not be doing anything alone. And she was incredibly protective. And I think that helped a lot. Yeah definitely.

WC: We had strong moms.

RJ: Strong moms are the best. I have a strong mom too.

RJ: You guys are awesome! Thank you for coming.

WC: Thanks for having us.

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