Without Limits: Navigating the Job Search with a Disability

In the second episode of Get Hired with Andrew Seaman's series for National Disability Employment Awareness Month (NDEAM), we're discussing all of the challenges people with disabilities face when looking for work. Luticha Andre Doucette , who is a disability justice expert, joins LinkedIn News Editor Andrew Seaman to share what job seekers with disabilities need to know about their rights and finding inclusive employers. She also explains why it's vital for those with disabilities to build a strong professional network.

A transcript of the conversation is below. You can listen to the episode above or wherever you like to listen by clicking here.

Check out the first episode in the NDEAM series, featuring Emily Ladau , by clicking here.

TRANSCRIPT: Without Limits: Navigating the Job Search with a Disability

Andrew Seaman: October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month or NDEAM for short. So this month Get Hired is celebrating the stories, talents, and contributions of workers with disabilities from across the country. We're also talking about the many challenges people with disabilities still face. This is the second episode in our NDEAM series, and today we're talking all about navigating the job search when you have a disability.

Look, it's no secret that job searching under the best circumstances can sometimes be soul-crushing, but for people with disabilities the job search process can feel like a full-blown obstacle course. Whether it's being on alert for biases and discrimination, or just facing the disclosure section on applications, the journey can feel overwhelming. Today we're getting empowering yet realistic advice from someone who has navigated these situations before so that you can be prepared to overcome whatever obstacle your job search throws your way.

From LinkedIn News, this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's Editor-At-Large for Jobs & Career Development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.

My guest today is award-winning disability justice expert Luticha Andre Doucette. As the CEO and founder of Catalyst Consulting, Luticha helps organizations and leaders examine equity in their policies, practices, and procedures. I brought Luticha all my toughest questions about navigating the job search with a disability. Questions like, what rights do you have as a job applicant? What questions to ask to suss out if an employer is really disability-friendly, and what to do if you think you're being discriminated against?

I kicked off my conversation with Luticha by asking her about how she found her way to advocacy work.

Luticha Doucette: I call myself an accidental advocate. I've been Black all my life, but I became disabled in 1985 in a car accident with my family, and I was 22 months old. I come from a long history of advocates. In my family, civil rights has always been something that we've talked about, have been very, very vocal about for hundreds of years. Even my grandmother, who I'm named after, my mother's mother, she was a poll worker and really getting Blacks registered to vote in Jim Crow. So that was hugely important. So those values have kind of always been passed down.

Yeah, you kind of have to advocate unfortunately when you are disabled because there are so many people out there who want to deny you things just based off of how you show up in your human body.

Andrew: We're here to talk about the barriers that people face in the workforce, specifically when they're looking for work. Obviously, looking for work is difficult enough. It's filled with rejection. You have to put yourself out there. Be vulnerable. What added challenges are there for people with disabilities during a job search?

Luticha: The added challenge is the low expectations that other people have of disabled people. And that starts in childhood. People ask, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" But they don't ask that of disabled kids very often. And the lack of imagination of the adults around the children to be able to say, "Well, can you do anything that you want to do? What do you want to do? And how do we create an environment so that you can think of the possibilities?"

I was just looking at the Olympics and there aren't disabled sports broadcasters except for... There's only one. She's in a wheelchair. And so really kind of thinking about, "Well, what do those possibilities even look like? What are our interests? Can they lead to a job? What is it that will be fulfilling, or do I just want to get a paycheck?" So those are some of the barriers.

The other barriers that we face are artificial in that when we are on things like supplemental security income, what people know as SSDI, those have restrictions on where you can work, how you can work, and there might be programs and things that are available as outlined in the Social Security Administration's Red Book, but do people know about those programs? Do the government workers themselves know about those programs to help you get a job? And oftentimes the answer is no.

Andrew: And all employers say, "We're open to everyone," and stuff, but obviously that's not always the case, and those statements are often written by comms people. So for people out there who are saying on top of the job search being challenging, I'm running into just so many barriers, what is your advice for those people to find employers that are actually true to their word and will make accommodations and will be welcoming and open?

Luticha: First, I would say for anyone looking for work is to know your rights, know your rights under the ADA, but know your state's rights. We have different labor laws across different states as well as your federal rights.

Andrew: Could you give us a quick overview of what the ADA is?

Luticha: The Americans with Disabilities Act is a law that has several different components. Title 1, Section 1, is about employment. So trying to remove employment barriers, structural barriers, communication barriers for disabled people, and have it be written into law. This means that if you need a remote work accommodation, you can get that. They're called reasonable accommodations. There is no 1-800 call the ADA, as my friend Barb says. The ADA is enforced by what is known as the EEOC, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. They're the ones who do the enforcement of the ADA. They are actually free-99, so you can talk to them to be able to understand your rights even before you become employed. It's something that I always encourage people to do.

The other thing is look for the violations. The EEOC has different reports that come out. Subscribe to them. Again, it's free-99. This is your civil right to have access to that. So really seeing what industries might be more prone to violations versus others, as well as looking at diversity across different sectors. So that would be the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I'm a data person, so I always encourage, go and look it up. There are so many jobs listed on there that I have never heard of in my entire life, and you can then say, "Oh, what is that? What are the requirements and what does that look like as an industry?" But really thinking about what is the environment that you want to be working in? Where do you operate best as your strengths? And then going from there.

Also, I know we're on LinkedIn, and this is not a LinkedIn plug, but LinkedIn is probably the best place to get references and talking to people. You can connect more with employees of individual companies, and people seem to be open to talking to about their workplace and what it is they do. So those are the ways that you can suss out.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think the networking piece is so important because I always tell people, "Whatever group you're part of, whether you're Black, whether you're LGBTQIA, if you're a person who has a disability, whatever it is, find your people." And that's where you get a lot of the most valuable information because they could say, "Oh, don't work here. They're terrible." Or, "They'll fight you every step of the way." Or, "Avoid that manager," that sort of thing. So I think the only way to get that information is basically to network and find people inside who can give you the truth about what's happening.

I have people who do that here. If they're interviewing for a role at LinkedIn, they'll say, "Hey, do you know any trans people that I could speak to internally to hear what their experiences are?" Or, "Do you have someone who looks like me?" And I'll say, "Yeah," because my experience would be different than someone else's.

Luticha: That's true. And I think that sometimes you need a person who can get you in the door. We talk about mentorship, but sometimes you don't need a buddy, you need a door opener, and sometimes that person has keys to a locked door that you didn't know existed, or you've been kind of banging on. So what are those opportunities within companies for people to reach out to say, "Hey, there's an opportunity here, and I'm going to give you those tips and tricks that these individuals are looking for in order for you to land the job?"

Andrew: Yeah. No, I think that's really great advice.

My next question is, once you take the step to apply... Something that I hear from people, and this happens across several groups, is there are disclosures where it'll say, this is optional, but are you a person with a disability? What's your racial, ethnic background? And for people with disabilities, I assume that can lead to a lot of anxiety because yes, it probably says, okay, it's not going to go to the hiring manager or the recruiter, but you never know, and you don't know what people's biases are. Do you have any advice for people who sort of face that checkbox on an application?

Luticha: That's a difficult... You're asking all the difficult questions.

Andrew: I'm sorry, I lied.

Luticha: It comes to personal choice, and also what is it that you need. I don't have the privilege of not disclosing because I use a wheelchair. It's pretty obvious. I also have a brain injury, which is a hidden disability, but if you need the accommodation for the interview, you got to disclose because sometimes it is a situation of closed mouths don't get fed. So it really is about what is your comfortability? What is it that you're looking for? It really comes down to what is your goal when not disclosing?

Andrew: We'll be right back with Luticha Andre Doucette.

Andrew: And we're back with disability justice expert Luticha Andre Doucette. Let's say you get into the interview with either the recruiter or the hiring manager, and hopefully everything has gone great up until that point. What questions would you be asking them to make sure, "Okay, is this going to continue? Is this vibe going to keep happening?" Are there certain questions that you think people should be asking to make sure they are really committed to being accommodating and open to people with disabilities?

Luticha: First, asking them what is their reasonable accommodations process? They should have one outline as well as their contact person in HR, who is the Americans with Disabilities Act coordinator, to be able to follow through with any of those questions. If they say, "I don't know," or, "We'll get back to you," that is a red flag, a definite red flag. They should also be asking, "What are your processes like? Where are they documented, and how are you making sure that employees know what is expected of them on the job?" If they can't answer, or they're one of those like, "Oh, this is a fast-paced environment, and we often do things on the fly," that might be a red flag for you if you're not someone who's comfortable in that type of environment. I don't mind fast pace, but I also like clarity. And when things aren't clear, that's when we have the opportunity for discrimination or something happening because things weren't clear, and then miscommunication happens.

So you want to get a sense of how people are actually interacting because I feel like interviews are like dates. First dates; we're all putting on our best dress, we're putting up a front, and then the probationary period ends, and you're just like, "Oh my gosh, who did we marry?" A contract that we got into each other. Now you're like, "I don't know."

So if you even land the job, that probationary period is your time to really ask those deeper questions. What is your onboarding like? I ask that during the interview, and then I look to see what is happening after I land the job. And if the math ain't math, I'm just like, "You said the onboarding would be like this, but the reality is kind of this."

Andrew: I think those are all fantastic questions. Also, what I like is you said you like clarity. And one of the tips I always give people is have an after interview email that you send to confirm. It's a thank-you note with a mission I call it. It's basically like you say, "Hey, thank you so much for the interview. I really enjoyed talking to you. I was so happy to hear x, y, and Z." That way you confirm in writing, "Hey, this is what I got out of that. If I'm wrong, you can reply and tell me I'm wrong. But this is my understanding, leaving that meeting." That way, at least when they come back, and like you said, "Oh, you're onboarding is not like you said it was," they could say, "Oh, no, no, no, it is." And you could be like, "No, no, no, no." So I always like that it's a thank-you note, but there's an agenda there.

Luticha: There's definitely the documentation upfront of this is what you said the expectations were. Now this is not the reality. And then also, how do you now put things into alignment?

Andrew: And again, that goes back to the idea of knowing your rights. And part of that is also what happens when you find out your rights are violated.

If someone runs into something where a recruiter isn't being helpful or a hiring manager just is like, "Oh, I have to make this change," or something like that, or, "We do every interview in person," what is your advice for people navigating that? Because I think for most people, it also comes down to that personal choice, which is do you want to fight this or do you want to take that information and say, "Okay, I don't want to work at this place." What do you think about that?

Luticha: Wow.

Andrew: I know, I'm sorry.

Luticha: [inaudible] because I have been discriminated on the job and never pursued any sort of lawsuit because lawsuits are tough. They are extremely arduous. They require a lot of a documentation. It can't just be about how you feel. You have to prove it in court. So you have to be good on the documentation side, which is something that most people don't know.?

And also where to find a lawyer to help you. ADA lawyers, especially around employment, are a little bit harder bunch to find. So that's also something that you have to really think about prior to getting a job, not because you're like, I want to sue people. But again, just knowing your rights, you need to know what your resources are.

That's one thing. Documentation, that's another thing. And then also your level of comfort of going in front of a judge. Sometimes a lot of these discrimination cases have a lot of trauma with that. They have a lot of shame and self-blaming. All of that can come along with that. So what does your support system look like? You need one in life, just in general. But when you're facing that level of, I'll call it ish, you're going to need a lot of people in your corner, solid people in your corner who are not going to fall for the trap of ableism to also be like, "Well, you could have sought something differently. You didn't have to disclose," falling into those types of things because you need your supporters to support you.

But also, I'm a disability justice practitioner, and not everything needs to go to a lawsuit. Sometimes you need mediation. Sometimes you need an objective person to come in and say, "Well, is this systemic? Do we need to do some retraining? What does that actually look like so that you can be whole, but also that you're making sure the environment changes as well so that things aren't repeated?" Sometimes that does not happen when a lawsuit happens. If you win, you get a settlement and all this other stuff happens, but does the environment actually change?

And so, from a disability justice perspective, what are the different avenues that we can take in order to ensure that it doesn't happen again? Because that's basically the point is that we don't want certain individuals in our jobs to be unprofessional because it's about the skill set, not who you are and how you show up in your body.

Andrew: Yeah, I think that's so important because if you take things to a lawsuit, and sometimes things should be taken there, but let's say it was something you ran into a recruiter who just happened to be a really big jerk, and maybe it wasn't systemic, but you want to address that with maybe that recruiter's manager or something like that. If you were to take that through a formal complaint or something like that, and like you said, sometimes those are difficult to win, they may say, "Oh, we're vindicated. See, we didn't do anything wrong." Whereas if you had that discussion, it might've actually resulted in, "Oh yeah, we have had complaints about Bob, and we need to get him off the front line," or something like that. So obviously, it doesn't give you a clear answer, but there are pluses and minuses depending on the situation.

Luticha: Exactly. There's multiple ways to get justice or however you want to define justice.

Andrew: When it comes to other people in the hiring process who maybe they don't have to encounter those challenges on a day-to-day basis, what would your message to them be?

Luticha: I think the message is you always have to see the best in every single person. If you are inviting someone to a job, and you want to hire them, then you have to treat them like the professional that... It's not charity. I think a lot of the times for disabled people, employment is seen as charity. "Oh my God, do the right thing. Oh my gosh, you're such a wonderful person for hiring this disabled person." And while I love glitter and vibes, that is not sustainable on the job. You need a person with skills.

This is not charity. This is not the Make-A-Wish Foundation. This is Corporation X, and so you have to be thinking about that in that kind of way.

Andrew: I think that is so important because at the end of the day, it is a business, and all that's being asked is that people have access to that opportunity. It's just let me get in the door.

Luticha: And don't make the door this heavy chain mail situation with a moat and all this. What are we doing as a business owner? I need to hire people.

Also, you have to be clear in what it is that you want because you are the leader, and that is our job to lead our employees. And so if you're unclear about what it is that you want in your business, then what you're going to get is a mess, messy employees who don't fit the job. And then you're like, "Ugh." Now you got to go through a firing process or there's high turnover. All of that is happening because you weren't clear in what it is that you want and what it is that you need. So that has to be forefront and center of your mind on the hiring side.

Andrew: Obviously, there's so much we can get into, but is there anything that you think people should take away from this conversation about job searching or anything that maybe we didn't touch on that is important?

Luticha: I always when I'm looking at jobs, never sell yourself short. If you look at a job description, and you're liking over 50% of what the skill set says, apply. Even if they are outside of your field, etc, if it looks interesting, do it. In this economy, lateral thinkers are really, really great. I know people who were English majors who are now software engineers, and never took a day of coding in their life, but they know how language works, and that was the core skill set of the job. Sometimes you have to be a little bit of a creative thinker in the job process.

Practice the interviewing process with your most grumpiest, negative friend possible. Whoever that person is, and we all got that one person, practice with that person. And they're going to make them say, "Make this difficult for me," so that you can then get over any anxiety or whatever it is that you want to be going through. And then practice again so that you can develop that skill set.

Andrew: Well, thank you so much, Luticha.

Luticha: Thank you. This has been a fun conversation.

Andrew: That was Luticha Andre Doucette, a disability justice expert and the CEO and founder of Catalyst Consulting. A quick note before we end. Because the disability community is large and diverse, we can't cover everything, so make sure you check out the additional resources in the show notes to learn more. Also, if you're leaving the conversation with a new learning to apply to your job search or career, I'd like to invite you to write about it in a review on Apple Podcasts. Our team really enjoys reading what you learn from our shows, plus it helps other people discover our community.

Speaking of community, remember that we're always here backing you up and cheering you on. Connect with me, Andrew Seaman and the Get Hired community on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. In fact, subscribe to my weekly newsletter that's called, you guessed it, Get Hired, to get even more information delivered to you every week. You can find those links in the show notes. And of course, don't forget to click the follow or subscribe button to get our podcasts delivered to you every Wednesday because we'll be continuing these conversations on the next episode right here, wherever you like to listen.

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. The show is produced by Grace Rubin and Emily Reeves. Assaf Gidron engineered our show. Tim Boland mixed our show. Dave Pond is head of news production. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Courtney Coupe is the head of original programming for LinkedIn. Dan Roth is the Editor-in-Chief of LinkedIn. And I'm Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.