What is considered Practice of Engineering (POE) in your country (in your state)?
I am running into the situation where I find it hard to get a real answer for questions like what is POE (Practice of Engineering)? Change is evident when something changes, e.g. time, new technology, current problems, etc. This requires changing the definition of POE, this process should be dynamic and fluid to adopt and accept the changes. Likewise, the complex projects may require a special definition of POE compared to others.
Note: I have used extensive references to Oklahoma State Board and FAA Specifications throughout this discussion.
Ref: POE requires a license in Oklahoma
I assume that everyone will agree that the design and construction of the BRIDGEs are considered the POE, which requires License to Practice. So now let's try to break (& group) BRIDGE project into activities to accomplish our goal, i.e. construction & commissioning of BRIDGE.
1. Subsoil explorations (geotechnical investigation), 2. Foundation design, 3. Structural design including columns, beams, diaphragm walls, deck slabs, bearings etc. 4. Construction management including temporary structure design, form design, concrete mix design, quality control & quality assurance, and so on... I don't need to discuss every detail to explain my point.
Now let's break these activities into even smaller pieces, for example, drafting. Drafting work may not necessarily be considered POE. Do you agree? But the drafting for the BRIDGE must be performed under the Engineer of the Record (EOR), hence it is POE! I mean drafting work must be performed under the direct control and supervisor of the EOR. This is the only way EOR can take responsibility for work performed. I guess, when someone does drafting work for some petty thing, it's not POE, but for sure if it for the BRIDGE. Similarly, the concrete testing itself may not be the POE, but testing of concrete for the BRIDGE must be considered POE! Am I right? We can't say that only Structural Analysis (SA) requires complex calculations, math & science hence it is POE. Because the SA will give you only loading, not the BRIDGE.
Similarly, what about the Contractors Quality Control Program (CQCP)? Many Contract requires that the Contractor must prepare, submit and implement the CQCP. Who will take responsibility of this CQCP? Design Engineer or Construction Engineer (EOR)? or the Engineer appointed by the Contractor for this specific purpose? As we all know that Contract creates an independent entity called Contractor. They are not under direct control and supervision of the EOR. It is the responsibility of the Contractor to select required Methods & Means to perform & deliver the Contract. Similarly, the Shop Drawings prepared & submitted by the Contractor are not in direct control & supervision of the EOR, but they are part of BRIDGE which is considered POE. In other words, this will require the Professional Engineering License issued by the State Board. This is the law.
Now let's discuss three scenarios, 1. Contractor appoints Licensed Engineer to Perform the CQCP. What is the responsibility of the EOR? 2. Contractor appoints Technician to Perform the CQCP. Is it a violation of State law? What is the responsibility of the EOR? 3. The contractor does not implement CQCP, absolute noncompliance & nonperformance, but completes the BRIDGE. Is it a violation of State law? What is the responsibility of the EOR? EOR don't know what Contractor did? No authentic certificates, test results, etc. are available. Can we accept this product and pay? i.e. BRIDGE. Can we determine reduced pay, then pay and accept & close the project? Who will take all responsibility?
Dear fellow professionals, you all requested to give me your observations, opinions etc. Currently, I am working with the Board to resolve this dilemma.
Construction Schedule, Mix Design and Shop Drawings:
Following are some useful links that define the PE and POE
What is Professional Engineer (PE)?
Consultant
8 年Every state has a slightly different meaning of "Engineer" and "Practice of Engineering (POE)". That means one instance may be a violation in State-A, but if exactly same instance happens separately in State-B then may not be a violation. Hence if this happens in a State-A and takes action against the person or entity, due to reciprocity (comity) etc. the person will have to surrender license in State-B also, but the opposite is not true. Is it true? Do you imagine this possibility? Currently Oklahoma State Board experiencing difficulty in clarifying the situation based on facts and asking to form a committee of experts for determinations and enforcement. If you are license in Oklahoma and available for this committee, I request you to contact the Board directly or let me know. Dr. Murthy V. A. Bondada, P.E., F.ASCE, F.ITEwrote me that " When he was on the Florida Board of Professional Engineers, the FBPE discussed extensively on this POE and finally included in the Board' s Constitution and Bylaws."
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball
8 年The determination of "practice of Engineering" is made by licensed engineers. The written definitions are not exactly black and white and I have run into many people who are practicing engineering when they truly do not believe they are. I am called upon on occasion to review possible illegal practice cases for the California PE board and one of the things I often have to do is determine if the person in the case was practicing engineering. The determination is pretty much left up to me in how I apply the definitions to the service I see the person supplying.
President at Carl Brown Consulting & Building Envelope Expert
8 年Mr. Desai: My issue is with the definition of Engineer. What specific Degree qualifies. For example does a mechanical engineer, or a computer engineer, or sanitation engineer? Too many folks are using the "engineer" degree for purposes not intended or qualified. I have seen this all over various construction projects. Another example: what makes a civil engineer qualified as a roof expert with our specific verifiable training and experience? You bring up a good inquiry. Carl Brown...
Team Leader Manages Both Time and Money.
8 年Because of our national constitution, Public Safety is what drives the registration of engineering practitioners in the United States. The Engineer of Record is accountable to the public for its safety from what is done under his or her aegis. The qualifications and administration of the registration program is the responsibility of the states through the tenth amendment to the constitution. The reason for this is, the federal government has limited powers over the states. The caveat to meeting the qualifications as a professional engineer is the requirement that the registered engineer must work in his area of expertise. The EOR supplements his own expertise by hiring or working with in-house PE's to cover areas of his responsibility in which he lacks expertise. As I understand the laws regarding the practice of engineering the paths of responsibility must be populated with those with appropriate expertise at every juncture, all of whom report to the EOR. The EOR sets up the specifications and requirements for the work and for all those who participate in its execution. This is clear to me; I have no problem with this concept. It is all too easy for regulatory bodies to get involved at a level of detail that hinders the very things they wish to accomplish. I find much guidance in seeing these things as paths of responsibility and not as an evolution of ever-expanding definitions of regulation. For instance, in my professional opinion, your paragraph 100-04 is of particular interest to me, because government agencies are in no way acting responsibly in stipulating the format for a construction schedule. The people who plan and manage construction work, those who are on the first path of responsibility for the work, should choose the format. This is a big deal with government agencies because CPM and PERT appear to give the regulators control of the construction process. In truth, this is bad practice. It interferes with those who have responsibility to deliver the project. CPM and PERT are means of calculating a schedule for tasks that are more effected by probability than by commitment to a contract. I can report scope and progress to an agency in any way they wish to be reported to. That the agency stays out of my path of responsibility is, for me, as important as for me to stay out of your path of responsibility. When you stipulate a schedule format, you are distorting trade codes of standard practices. No person with good intentions should want to do that. Please think this through, to see this for yourself.