“The vision that I had back then was, “Well, why isn't there a brand that actually teaches customers how to invest in what they buy?” - Karla Gallardo

Checkout this week’s new episode of the #NoLimitsPodcast featuring the Co-Founders of fashion brand Cuyana, Karla Gallardo and Shilpa Shah:

On today’s episode you’re about to meet the two founders behind Cuyana. It’s a fashion brand whose philosophy is “fewer, better things.” Yes, a company that is actually encouraging us to buy less. They realized the gap between access to quality and price point, and they set out to create a company that teaches customers how to maintain and invest in the items that we buy. Think, the anti fast-fashion. Something else that intrigued me about this company, is that they’ve decided not to sell on Amazon and instead, are focusing their attention on Instagram. I wanted to talk to them about what that means for other businesses, because I think there’s a lot to be learned there. I’d also like to mention that they made it to this interview after a 12-hour flight delay. They lost their luggage, which had the entire fall and holiday sample collection in it, they had to run back to the airport to recover it in the pouring rain, and then they came here straight to the interview and were 30 minutes late, but we’re not going to hold it against them. That is the life of an entrepreneur. Here are Karla Gallardo and Shilpa Shah to tell you their story. 

SS: Hi!

RJ & KG: Hi!

SS: I’m sorry. Thank you for your patience.

RJ: Of course! Thanks for coming.

SS: I’m sorry.

RJ: No. Please. I mean I feel like it's so perfectly instructive about the life of an entrepreneur and what all of this really looks like, so it's perfect.

SS: It's actually very true.

RJ: So I want to welcome both of you to No Limits. Karla Gallardo, you're the co-founder and CEO of Cuyana and Shilpa Shah, you're the co-founder and CXO—and that's the Chief Experience Officer. We're going to get to that, but I want to start this conversation with what happened before the conversation because I feel like it is so perfect. It completely explains what the life of an entrepreneur really is. So, you just got here Shilpa in the pouring rain.

SS: In the pouring rain. After making a quick side trip back to Newark Airport where we landed at 3:00 in the morning. So, I just went back at 2:00 p.m. to go collect our entire fall and holiday samples in collection in suitcases.

RJ: Which are in suitcases right outside the studio, we're going to post a picture to Instagram, because—but that is the life. You got here first, Karla. You showed up like an hour ago. Half an hour ago-ish.

KG: To the studio, yes.

RJ: To the studio. You came without Shilpa. And I have to say—OK, don't take this the wrong way, but I admire the guts that you showed up without Shilpa, didn't call in advance to say, “It's just going to be.” You're like, “I'm going to the interview. I'm going to show up, so they're going to do the interview.” Was that the thinking?

KG: Yes, I guess so! Well, I told you, I'll make up for Shilpa’s questions. I said I'll answer those for you.

RJ: But I really respect it because you get that one shot a lot of the time. And I'm not by the way—with me if it didn't work out we would have found another way. But I just really respect it because I think it goes to show you how when you are an entrepreneur there are crazy situations that come up. Your flight got totally delayed last night from the West Coast here.

KG: Yeah, twelve hours.

RJ: You were supposed to be here all day long showing your new merchandise.

SS: We were supposed to have press preview at 8:00 a.m. We landed at 3 a.m. to discover our bags were not on our flight and actually were on their way to Cleveland.

RJ: Oh my. So all of your new stuff went to Cleveland.

SS: All of the stuff that we were going to show at press preview—

KG: To thirty editors.

SS: Thirty editors. They were not in New York. They were on their way to Cleveland. They were arriving on their own at 11:00 a.m. and we had to basically postpone press preview till tomorrow. And we got all the editors lined up to come tomorrow. And then I had to go get the samples myself just about half an hour ago.

RJ: It’s so glamorous to be a founder, isn’t it? Thank goodness all the editors are on board with seeing everything tomorrow because that's a big deal. Having the editors see your new collection, how important is that?

SS: It basically guarantees that we are thought of for any short or long lead press opportunities.

RJ: And canceling on them last minute?

SS: Yes.

RJ: Goes over really well.

SS: Thankfully they have known us now for six-seven years and we've built a lot of relationships and so, the fact that they're willing to be flexible shows that it's going to be worth it.

RJ: And I think it shows two things. First of all, the product is worth it, but second of all, the relationships that you've developed now over that time are so key.

KG: Yes.

RJ: So let's go backwards in time. The idea for the company, how do you guys come up with this?

KG: It was an idea that came from an actual need. So, I grew up in Ecuador in a home that was actually built with the philosophy of “fewer, better things” and I moved to America when I was 18 to go to college. And although my heart and passion was in fashion and I had made my own clothes when I lived in Ecuador, I followed a traditional path of a finance career and I ended up getting a degree in Math at Brown, but really looking forward to one day enter the fashion world. And what I realized in the U.S. was that there was no shortage of products and no shortage of these gigantic malls that we don't really have back at home. But what I did realize is that my friends and really the consumer wasn’t satisfied with the options that were out there and there was a big gap between access to quality and price point and a lifestyle that actually satisfies a consumer need. And you know the vision that I had back then was, “Well, why isn't there a brand that actually teaches customers how to invest in what they buy?” Because this is how I grew up in Ecuador and how many people grow up, right? When you buy something, you think about it beyond the one time wear. And so the brand was—the idea sparked back then.

RJ: So, your background is math. Like you said, you did finance early and your background, Shilpa, is technology.

SS: Computer science.

RJ: Computer science. So I like that you use the term “invest” in your fashion. But I can imagine that both of you coming in asking investors for money early on, they were responding, “Okay well, this isn't your background.” What was the sales pitch?

KG: The hardest part was to actually pitch a business that was about fashion. It was the fashion brand. Brand, by the way, back then was a concept that wasn't really understood.

RJ: And now it's the most important thing that everybody's investing in.

KG: Exactly. And then the second part of our business that was a no-no back then is that we were making inventory and holding inventory, which was another no-no.

RJ: Because it's expensive. They want like basically a cheap, computer based company that doesn't create a product.

KG: And it requires cash and it has a risk. And so those two things were the hardest challenges to lay as an opportunity for the mindset that investors had back then. And I can tell you the story about how we ended up successfully getting funded.

RJ: Uh yeah, I think everyone would like to hear that!

KG: We realized that the first challenge of explaining what a brand is was really hard to explain it to men, to understand why would women marry a brand. But we realized quickly that it wasn't a hard concept to explain it to a woman. In fact, we could get through that part of the conversation really quickly and actually spend time on the inventory side and on the type of supply chain that we had built to de-risk the challenges that a company that holds inventory has. And so we changed our strategy of pitching to men only into finding the very few investors that are women that we could go and pitch our business model to. And you'll find this funny. But part of being entrepreneurs and resourceful is that were spending time on Pinterest back then. This is 2011 and I think it was Shilpa who found this board that some person—and we should go back to see who that person was—created with the women investors that existed in America.

RJ: Somebody created a Pinterest board of all women investors in America.

KG: Oh yes, back then.

SS: And there were 10.

KG: Yeah, 10. Literally, Angel investors—just from every single type of investor, the few women that were investors.

RJ: Well, thanks to that person for doing the diligence for you.

KG: Exactly. And so we quickly turned that into a spreadsheet and we went after it.

RJ: Is that the most useful thing Pinterest has ever produced?

SS: For us, yes. For us, yes. But through that list we found this incredible woman investor who is a partner at Cain and Partners and it’s a VC in Menlo Park and she understood what brand was right away. And we actually spent like an awesome hour talking about supply-chain and optimization and why this brand was going to be better than other brands out there and got the business model and she put a bet on us. So, yeah that's how it all got started.

RJ: I love it seeing your eyes light up when you say supply-chain and optimization. Both of you, I would actually imagine that your backgrounds, perhaps, helped you in the VC community where people would say,” Okay. Computer Science. Math. Those are hard skill sets.” And so they have those skill sets on some levels to fall back on or to understand more broadly building a business on.

SS: Yeah, Absolutely. In fact, there was one VC pitch that we went to that at the end of the conversation they said, “We love you guys. We love your background. You guys have totally made this successful company. Can we ask you one question that's really been nagging at us?” And we're like, “Okay, yeah sure, of course.” They asked, “Why fashion?” Right, “Finance, banking, computer science, design, why did you guys choose fashion? Isn't that somewhat clich?” And I think it was a very pointed question, but it also points to the need that we are solving, which is why not fashion? And that's a really great way for women to find strength and confidence and actually approach their whole world with that kind of effervescence if you will. And we really saw a business problem there that we could supply with a technical solution and really fulfill a fashion need for women.

RJ: So your title.

SS: Yes.

KG: Chief Experience Officer.

SS: Correct.

RJ: First of all, are there a lot of Chief Experience Officers out there? That's kind of a newer thing, right?

SS: It definitely is. It's becoming more and more known now. But back in the day, no. Definitely very few of them.

RJ: And did you call yourself that from day one?

SS: I did. So I'm a UI/UX designer by trade, so I did that for ten years before I went back to business school and in the days pre-iPhone, people didn't even know what a UI designer was. Post-iPhone, they really started to value that and start to value the customer experience. So, you started to see a slew of people who started reaching more executive levels and positions. And we obviously couldn't call ourselves CEO, so we had to come up with a new title and it's really just about keeping customers front and center of any company that you're building.

RJ: And after you had been in industry for 10 years—that's a little bit longer than what most people would decide to go back to Business school.

SS: Yes. Probably double, almost triple.

RJ: So what was the thinking at that point—of going to business school versus just launching a business if that was your desire? Was that what you were thinking, “I'm going to go to business school and then I'll start a business”?

SS: Honestly, I went to business school to know what I didn't know, fundamentally. I didn't have a clear reason. I just felt like there was a whole world of stuff that I wasn't exposed to. And I used to joke—I wanted to understand what happened in a boardroom where good, creative ideas went to die because they just never came out the other side.

RJ: Yes! I mean anytime you watch a movie or a show or you listen to music or you see a brand that doesn't seem quite right, you're thinking, “But wait. I know there are much better ideas out there than the ones that we get to see.” Why does that happen?

SS: Exactly.

RJ: So what is the answer? Why does it happen, Shilpa?

SS: Honestly, I think it's mostly about risk, right? And so most of what you learn in business school is about all of the things that mitigate risk, so you can make the best decision on possible. Karla's job everyday is to come up with all of the things that could go wrong and make the bet anyway, right? The final decision.

RJ: Get on that airplane. Check your luggage.

SS: At the entrance of the doors to understand all the terms and all of the impacts that you have across the entire business. So, I really do feel that doing that for me—not having that background, guaranteed me a seat at the table.

RJ: One of the other reasons that I wanted to talk to you today is what some probably would consider a risky decision, which is not to sell on Amazon. You guys happen to be here on Prime Day which is you know the 36-hour Amazon bargain bonanza for the 100 million Prime members in the world who are buying on Amazon and since I cover business and technology for ABC, I've been covering this story and it's their biggest year yet. You've decided to go the Instagram route.

SS: Yes.

RJ: And really use Instagram and double down there. What's the thinking behind that?

SS: I think even bigger than just Instagram, I think you could even broaden it to say that we've decided to go the branded route.

RJ: OK.

SS: Right, and so we really value customer journey and controlling every aspect of that customer journey. And when you give up control to Amazon, to a wholesale, to retailer, then you really forgo that control and customer experience. And that's how we win with really branding well and telling that story ourselves and it's actually the most defensible thing against Amazon. So, if you're going to be an e-commerce company, the only way you're going to win is if you can offer something that Amazon can't. And so, by doing that you let go of that control.

RJ: That's a very good point. But I'm sure that you've heard the alternatives’ point of view, which is, “Okay, if you're not Amazon, that's where people are spending their money and their time, how will you get the discovery portion of the business? “

KG: We don't think Amazon is quite varied when it comes to fashion. And I'll tell you. My house is filled with Amazon boxes every day. Me and my husband buy a lot of things on Amazon, but discovering a brand on Amazon or really truly being romanced by a brand on the Amazon platform—we're not there yet. And that's the part that we come in and where we are able to actually engage with our customer in a different way and romance them into what our lifestyle is. And I think that, you know, Amazon is investing time and resources and figuring out how to get there, but I don't think we're in a place where we see that strong partnership yet.

RJ: I like how you used the word romance. So walk us through what are some of the ways that you romanced that customer and control that experience?

KG: Oh definitely. Shilpa was getting to this, every single touchpoint is incredibly important to us, from the moment where a customer finds out about our brand, how do they find out about our brand, what are people saying about our brand, and that's where our philosophy comes into place. “Fewer, better things” was truly a Eureka moment for us because it gave three words to our customers to tell their friends what our brand is about. And so, how our customers find out about our brand and then, once they come to us, they either experience our brand online or through a retail store and we romance them there. There's a story behind every product, every factory that we use is ethically sourced, has a family running it. The materials that we pick are important to us, from not only a luxury standpoint, but also an ethical standpoint. And then how we design the product. It’s for today's modern woman and that's the part where we engage with her the most. We're making products to make our lives easier, but not products that make us feel dressed down. They’re products that actually make us feel very powerful when we walk into the room and that is really the business that we are in. We want to make women feel strong and put together and when we're well dressed, we feel that way. And we are able to do that through storytelling, through photography, through campaign, through engaging with our customer, but that very important piece can't be delegated to somebody else just now. And then all the afterthoughts because we don't believe that you know the experience ends with purchasing a product. It's also part of our mission to educate our customers as to how to take care of those products. Because I think that was part of what I saw when I moved to the U.S. and a lot of products are purchased to be worn once or twice. And that's what I mean by investment.

RJ: Especially now—fast fashion is such a thing.

KG: Exactly, exactly. And that's what we were trained to think with fast fashion. The product is out of trend the next season, you're going to buy more. But if you buy a truly luxurious cashmere sweater, you want to preserve that sweater. You have to learn how to wash it. I have to learn how to keep it and how to keep it from pilling, how long to wash it for, what like temperature of water, how to store it in your closet. Don't hang it, fold it. There's so many pieces that go into preserving your products for a long time and so, all of that journey is part of marrying the brand and that's what we were discussing earlier about what makes a woman marry a brand. And so, that's everything that we know we focus on and that's why Shilpa’s marriage with me—I’m kidding—our marriage works really well because that's why her role as the CXO and thinking of that whole experience makes a lot of sense. And then from my standpoint the product piece and the branding and the images is kind of how we blend the two together and deliver that experience to our customer.

RJ: So much of your terminology revolves around love and relationship, so it's no wonder that the name comes from—

KG: Quechua.

SS: And it means to love.

RJ: To love. So, there you go. So, you have the company up and running. What was the biggest initial obstacle?

KG: Oh my goodness. Wow. Rebecca, this one we should think about. It's so funny because when we experienced this luggage thing today, we were thinking, “Wow, it's been a couple of years since we had one of these crazy episodes happen.” Obstacles. So many, Rebecca. I mean everything. And I can tell you that starting a business is the hardest thing, but you probably remember.

SS: Well, I think the funding was a big thing. When doing the big pivot from—not to criticize the male investor—they just didn't understand the problem. So, us being resourceful as entrepreneurs and saying, “Okay, let's solve this problem a different way. We know we have a really wonderful business and a viable model here. So, let's just find the people who we can actually pattern match with correctly.”

SS: That was the first one. And then, I remember—at least one of them for me—my first collection with Karla, we did India and we went and we found the products, we made these beautiful pieces, we had great stories to tell and we get all of these products back to San Francisco and she looks at me, she says, “By the way when we launch tomorrow,” and we're spending all nighters trying to launch this collection and continues, “No one's going to buy anything.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?”

KG: This is a launch without press or marketing by the way.

SS: Yeah and she says, “Well, don't worry about it. That's totally normal. It's just that now we have to become a marketing company.” And I’m like, “OK.”

RJ: And did anybody buy anything?

SS: No. Except for maybe my mom.

KG: Our friends.

SS: A couple of our friends.

KG: Well, because of the stage we were in back then and that was very purposeful. We were making product first. So, we were not in the business of selling it yet. We needed to work and that's part of the supply chain story that I was sharing. We came into this industry with a business angle and our first problem was to make luxurious product at the best price points. And so, before we even start putting our dollars into marketing, we needed to make sure we could actually deliver on a supply chain that could sustain this value proposition at scale. And that's the phase that Shilpa was talking about. And we didn’t invest dollars in marketing until two years later.

RJ: Wow. Two years.

KG: Yes.

SS: Once it’s perfect—I think it's an important point because most direct to consumer companies that we’re group within and a great model which essentially means we're going to market differently. Right, we're cutting out the middleman in how we sell. Cuyana also changed how we make, right. So there's two very different parts of this problem. So we've changed the entire way we manufacture and design like the quantity, the styles, the number of skews, like the countries in which we make it, where where the material comes from we changed all of that and then, we also changed how we sold. Right, so, we actually tackled every single part of this business from beginning point to endpoint, from design, manufacturing, to inventory management to how we then go to market to even distribution. So, every box is actually packed and shipped by a Cuyana employee, which enables us now, in year seven, to actually be an omni-channel company. And so, you're going to hear a lot of stuff, Rebecca, about how there's all these direct-to-consumer brands that are opening stores. They are only now realizing what it means to warehouse and multi-warehouse and actually manage inventory because they outsource that piece, right. Cuyana has been doing that from day one. I mean every single part of it like Karla and I, in the early days, we packed we packed up every box and walked it down to FedEx because it costs money for them to pick it up, right. We did every single job in the company, just the two of us, and I think that shows now. And so, when we're going to consider decisions like Amazon or working with another partner it's not that that will made that may not have that will happen in the future. I don't know when that will happen. But currently in our brand and our brand’s age, we're in it for the long-term. We're making a brand that will not go away and so, it's just not the right time to take that kind of partnership on.

RJ: But I think that's very instructive when you think about your point about a number of the other kind of startup, hot startup, young consumer brands that are targeting a lot of our No Limits listeners—

SS: Yes.

RJ: A lot of those brands didn't build in the way that you've built and they're having some really tough lessons right now, as a result of that.

SS: And many of them position the inventory situation in their stores as a customer benefit that they don't carry inventory in that store and we're not sure about that. Right, like I think most customers want to go buy a product in-store and take it home. And, you know, because they're not able to deliver in an omni-channel way, which is actually warehousing and having inventory in those stores, I mean, they are forgoing the positive customer experience.

RJ: What's been the toughest lesson for each of you along the way?

SS: I think just this approach with confidence for me personally. We don't come from this industry and so, I mean, we started a fashion company in San Francisco, right. Coming from math and computer science, that's not really the traditional way of creating a fashion brand. And so, coming into the room and coming into meeting with people in New York and just knowing that we were an outsider looking in, but owning that with confidence that we have beautiful pieces that they wanna hear about and really just treating that with confidence and and knowing we belonged here I think was a big lesson for me.

RJ: I mean that would be part of my sales pitch. We're different and that is why you would want to invest in us because we have a skill set that when coupled with all of this is even more powerful.

SS: True, which is a very great story in San Francisco and California. However, here that can also be viewed this criticism right and disruptive, “Are you trying to change what you know the whole industry holds sacred?” which I think is also part of our message which we're not. We're not trying to—fashion is an amazing thing. You know, people love fashion, women love fashion. We should have fun with fashion. It shouldn't have to be such a weighted guilty decision. Let's enjoy looking great. So, that's why we lead with fewer and better things and then we say, “also by the way, it's made with integrity and respect and better quality. And once you wear it, you're going to fall in love and want to buy more better things.”

RJ: Karla?

KG: I learn every day when it comes to hiring talent. And I think that, you know, for me the hardest thing in running the business is how we evolve the type of people we hire and how do we make that right decision. So, let me explain. When we're at early stages of building a business, everything—our advantage is agility. Being fast, taking those risks fast and moving forward and choosing the right ones to take and going, you know, moving forward and just getting things done. And as the company continues to evolve, we need to make more calculated risks right, because they involve more money and resources, we have a larger team, we also have more information. And so with more information, we can take more calculated risks. And so, the type of people you hire along the way, just from a concept of startup,you can take those kind of as inputs as to what type of people you need along the way. But when it comes to the type of company that we run is the company that requires that agile persona, but then also we're in a phase where we also want experts and those experts come from this industry that's not agile. So, how do we find those unicorns in the industry and bring them to be a part of us? Or how do we train and coach those folks that join us to help us move along this journey in a way that we can continue to take risks in a measured way, but keep moving fast? Because speed is our best friend.

RJ: I would guess, I could be totally off here, but finding that sort of unicorn expert, you probably have to find someone who is way better than what their rank and title suggests, who's frustrated with the speed and pace of the old industry, but who is the real deal at the end of the day.

KG: You're exactly right. It's those people that are doing the work for for their the higher ranks.

RJ: Yep.

KG: Who are the super smart folks that are super driven and hungry to get there, but that they don't have that responsibility quite yet. And it's hard to find them.

RJ: And the funny thing is I think it's hard to find them but I know that they're out there.

KG: Oh yes.

RJ: I'm sure that people listening right now are those people. But when you go to the LinkedIn profile, you go to the resume, it's so difficult to be—

KG: its hard to find, exactly.

RJ: —to be aware of that. Is there anything that you look for that people could do to stand out in that way?

KG: We—I mean, it depends really on the role we're hiring for. And for example, we have an engineering team and a PM team and we're in San Francisco. Great, we know how to hire for that. But exactly those roles that we're hiring that actually we have to hire from outside of San Francisco—you know, designers, merchants and those are the ones that are—it's just tough. It's also tough because it's not clear. The title doesn't mean anything.

RJ: Yeah.

KG: And so, there's a lot of work that goes behind our first screening calls and our interview process is actually quite long. And those that get through it are those that we know are right for us and that doesn't only include a few interviews. It's a lot of interviews, it's a super day, it's a project. I mean, it's long.

RJ: Do either of you have a favorite interview question that you always ask?

KG: I have so many.

RJ: Really?

KG: Well, I mean, I like to take it back to who they are as people. I think we have a lot of checks in our interview process where we can test for skills, but I really like to ask how they grew up, what drives them. I think that the biggest thing—the biggest question I want to answer after during an interview is what drives that person. And there are different drivers for different people. Money, you know, is a big driver. Title, kind of ego success. And it doesn't matter what the answer is. I just want to make sure I understand what the driver is so, that when we hire that person, all the other values that matter to us are there, but we know what that driver is so that we can work together and motivate that employee to be their most successful self.

RJ:  As a company that's based in love and relationships, how do you handle negative feedback?

KG: So, we are in the business of iterating. And we cannot iterate without information. So for us, receiving feedback as a company, whether it's on how we are making our products, the customer experience, what we are delivering, it's the best gift we can get. So, we are in the business of receiving that and actually using it as an input into how we make decisions. And that's why that agile process is really important. I think that, you know, when we talk about just teams and how they give and receive feedback in the workplace, it is tough and I'll tell you why. We hire people that are not only incredibly smart, but that are also kind. It's one of our core values as a company. We always say, “we'll never hire the arrogant, smart person.” That just doesn't fit in our work environment. And when you end up hiring those types of people, we have a hard time being, you know, direct and giving each other constructive criticism. And so, the good news is that because those relationships are strong, we can be direct and continue to encourage that in the working environment right.

RJ: And when you get negative feedback from a customer, how do you handle it?

SS: It's an opportunity to learn. So, we really view it as a learning opportunity. I mean, you get so much information when somebody has had a negative experience, even more than when they've had a positive experience. So, what did they like? What did they not like? What affected it? And you have the opportunity to actually transform that and turn it around for them. So, that's why we're always—I read comments, emails and inbound all the time. In fact, if there are no negative pieces of information then we are not opening a channel to listen to our customers. There should always be something that we can improve.

RJ: I like that. OK, so worst advice. What's the worst advice you've received along the way?

SS: I mean this in the best possible way, so if my mom listens, I hope she doesn't get upset. But she actually, when I was about to apply to business school, she told me that now that my husband was done with residency and I was the primary kind of income earner, that now I should become a woman of leisure was her advice, which I think at the time, she was—she knew that maybe it will motivate me more because she knows that that's not who I am.

RJ: Did you answer her like that?

SS: I think I hung up at that time, which I'm not proud of, but I—and at the heart of it, which I've come to learn over time, is that sometimes what people are saying it's not what they intend or mean and what she actually was saying, more, was about that she wanted to take care of—make sure I took care of myself and and also while I while I pursued my goals. So, I think she wasn’t able to communicate that fully, but that probably in and of itself was the worst advice I've received.

RJ: I really respect you for sharing that. What's your mom's name?

SS: Vinay.

RJ: Shout out to Vinay. What I will say is that so much of the worst advice- Honestly, I think about 80 percent of the time the worst advice comes from those who love you, who know you, who understand you and they're trying to protect you. They're trying to give you the best case scenario that they want for you. And so it can be—I think it's almost more difficult to ignore that advice when it's coming from someone who you really do genuinely trust.

SS: Absolutely. And I think she's always going to play that role in my life where she's going to make sure she's looking out for me and knowing that there's somebody there doing that and telling me the counterpoint to my ambition is a really good grounding force.

RJ: But I bet she was also one of those first customers.

SS: Yes, she was. She actually—

KG: She definitely was.

SS: She actually came on that trip to India and took care of my infant while we went to supplier meetings so she was—

KG: She was the best. She is the best. So for me, I was I was trying to—I wanted to go back to the very beginnings and I have the most terrible advice I was ever given. So, I received one of my performance reviews back in my time in the investment banking world and one of the pieces of advice I received was to, “take that smile off my face.”

RJ: Wow. You know I started in banking too so I can totally hear any one of my bosses saying that to me.

KG: Because I've proven to be incredibly smart and a good performer, but when I walked into the office with that smile people thought that I was just not and

RJ: Weak. They thought you were weak.

KG: That it gives the wrong impression. And I I was really upset. I was young, I was probably—this was in my internship and I was probably what 20 years old, and I actually thought that that was right and I remember changing my personality a little bit when I was in the banking years.

RJ: Can I see the face you changed it to?

KG: Oh yeah, it was hard, it was hard because like yeah and then. It was hard, but—

RJ: You’re like, “I’m tough.”

KG: You know I can’t. It’s part of me to—I always smile and laugh and when I laughed like I remember my family came to visit me and I was just like ruthless trying to get things done. I was like I thought I was the owner of the world and very serious. And they're like, “what is wrong with you? Like chill out,” and realize it's not it's not me. And I went back to business school and started this business and truly what has gotten us to be where we are is being our true authentic selves. We started Cuyana without knowing anybody in the fashion industry and I can tell you, anybody. We did not know a single person that had an in to tell us how to do things. Nobody in the you know in the press world, nobody in the manufacturing world, nobody. I mean we formed relationships in business schools that got us to where we are and through our family and friends from from before. But what has gotten us here is this is is is us as people and actually forming true relationships with the people that have helped us along the way, where it's a two-way relationship where they help us and we help them. We actually, you know ,they get to know us and who we are and that's why kindness is a very important value in our company because that's who we are and we wouldn't be in business if that's not how we conducted it. So, it’s a long story, but it's very easy to get persuaded in a different way when you're young and you’re trying to be successful. And those coaches and mentors are you know those who can mark how you—who you become and how you become that person. So, that was a tough lesson.

RJ: Yeah, I mean I'm so glad you shared that story. Because I think that there's probably a lot of people out there who have heard similar things somewhere along the way, and I think you're proof that it's not a weakness, at all!

KG: No, it's our strength. It is our strength.

RJ: Honestly both of you share two of my favorite pieces of “worst advice” I've ever heard here and I'm not just saying thank you thank you for coming. Good luck tomorrow with all of your meetings with editors. And we really appreciate it.

SS: Likewise.

KG: Thank you for having us, Rebecca.

RJ: Thanks for coming.

KG: That was really fun.

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