Views on inclusion, tokenism and uncomfortable questions from our LGBTQI+ members

Today we have a special article because recently we have decided to open up the field of topics we cover at GTeX. At the end of the day, we are human and I believe in sharing our experiences no matter what they are and how difficult it may be. One of the missions we have at Gtex is to make sure our community members feel like they are heard. This month is Pride month, so I decided to have a few members from GTeX that are a part of the LGBTQI+ community to explore their views on the matter.

We explored:

→What are their views on the matter?

→What can we do as a business to help?

→What does pride month mean to them? 

→What are some of the subconscious biases that we or businesses might have?

Our guests today are Ian Phillip James, Claire Wilding, and Mia Von Loga. I initially asked them the same question to begin with and then it evolved from there.

Simone: Who are you, what do you do and what does pride month mean to you?

Mia: I want to start with what pride month means to me and then what I do. Nowadays, pride month is something I fully celebrate. I am so proud to be a part of this community and it makes me happy. I love that there is acknowledgement and am able to see all these beautiful faces celebrating with me because it means a lot. However, it hasn’t always been that way, because it has always been something we need to fight for, which is something I didn’t understand. What I do is have two businesses that are all around empowering your authentic self and loving being different. 

Simone: So what I am hearing is that there has been a change of heart on how you feel about pride month?

Mia: It’s really the history of pride month that I had an issue with. If you look at the history in New York when the first parade started there was a lot of violence and a lot of horrible things these people had to go through. I can now see it has turned into this great celebration that has made us grow stronger as a community and helped us claim the space that we deserve. When I said it was a bit difficult for me in the past, it was because I always questioned why I needed to fight for my basic human rights. Whereas now, I am more like it is not great that we have to fight for it, but this is how it is and we have to keep moving forward.

Ian: Hi everyone, I am Ian and am a GTeX member and coach and I help people with accountability and productivity, which means I help people get stuff done that they haven’t gotten around to doing. Pride month for me is a symbol of visibility. It is a symbol of instigating conversations of exploring what we don't know yet, tackling things we haven’t tackled yet, and celebrating things that we got done.

It is an interesting concept to have pride in just being who you are and the conversations that come around are usually about what people don't know yet. Particularly when people start asking about lifestyle choices the LGBTQI+ people make which often that instigates a response of actually saying it is not a lifestyle, some people choose a particular type of lifestyle but for some people, it’s just a matter of them being which is no different than some who has blue eyes or brown eyes. So that’s quite interesting that pride month often amplifies conversations that otherwise might have not been had out in the open. 

It is also an opportunity to see who is an ally and who still sometimes are on the fence about it. Some people might see a rainbow flag in the supermarket and might be confused about why it’s there and what does a supermarket have to do with that, but for someone who is from the LGBTQI+ community, it allows us to think “This company supports that diversity and equal right so I am safer in this place and the staff is more considered more in this place” Which is an indication where we are regarding the matter. In something like sexuality which is otherwise invisible to the outside world it enables us to see that this is a safe place for us. 

Claire: Hi, I am claire Wilding and I am very much an LGBTQI+ activist and I have mentored a lot of people through different parts of their journey which is something I love about the world; that people have such bravery and such a desire to be their most authentic self and the real question is why not? What pride means to me personally is just being able to go out there and live your life and do it as authentically, proudly, and as comfortably as you can. 

Now another thing that should be mentioned is that the world is a much safer place because people are asking a lot more questions, people are a lot more curious and people are more open to having these types of conversations, and that to me is amazing. The world has come a long way and it is wonderful to see all these people come together celebrating who they are very comfortably and openly. Fundamentally, that is what pride is all about for me. It’s about going out there and loving your life that is what it is about.

Simone: I can hear recurring themes from your answers which are:

-A sense of joy of self-expression like “this is who I am, take me”

-The other thing I picked up on is the theme of safety which you all mentioned and wanted to ask Ian this question about businesses. 

For someone in the LGBTQI+ community the rainbow flag represents a safe space, so how can you tell when a business is being authentic and is actually in support of the community and when they’re all for show? I’ve always kept my opinions quite private about matters like these until quite recently because I never wanted to be perceived as someone using someone else’s situation for gain. So my question is what can businesses do and how important is it for businesses to create a safe space but also how do we not go into tokenism?

Ian: The first thing I would say is, there is a lot that you can do but there is also a lot that isn’t a great idea to do too...the first place I would encourage you to begin is to talk to your LGBTQI+ people and have a conversation about what you are thinking about doing and how it might play out. Interestingly, not only with your LGBTQI+ community but also how it may play out with non-members of the community. There’s an interesting balance particularly on social media where people say things like ‘50% of our staff are LGTBQI+’ and often what happens in these types of conversations is people are like hang on a second, that’s a bit unrepresentative, and how come you have so many LGBTQI members of staff. The issue is that the intention and point get lost. So the best thing to do is to talk to people who have experienced these conversations so they can tell you how it could potentially play out. So in short, your intention might be good but it may not play out the way you want because you may have not considered XYZ…

The other thing you can do is to check in with your LGBTQI+ community if they even want to help you because not everyone is the same. Some people are very keen and want to help non-members of the community to achieve things and some people are just like I don’t want to talk these things through all the time. Just dont assume that everyone is wanting and willing to talk about the subject. So just be mindful and ask if they are okay with having a conversation about it or not. In terms of tokenism, I invite people to think through the congruence of their actions. So for example, if you wanted to launch an LGBTQI+ product, actually why is it that you want to launch that product? Is it because you want those people to buy your products that are bordering on exploitation or is it actually that you want to genuinely help support the community?

Simone: So it is not just about the offer that businesses put out there but whom they do partnerships and business with too because those things matter. I’d like to share something that happened n a business meeting that I had a couple of years ago where there was a homophobic comment that was made. The person who commented thought it was a ‘joke’ and the person who received the comment was gay and I saw that he took it quite badly. One of the things that I have to mention is how difficult it was to stand up and say something. It was difficult because of the judgment of others and so on and nobody was saying anything. What I took from that experience is that as difficult as I found it to say something, it probably is a lot more difficult for the person receiving the comment… 

Ian: A good way to think about it is, what do you do and how are you when you think nobody is looking?

Claire: That is a very profound thing to say because it’s not just when we are representing and being the face of our brand, it is the brand we are outside of that is how we authentically are as human beings. It can be very easy for people to put on a face in the workplace and then as soon as they leave the office they have very different opinions on the matter. 

Simone: I’d love to jump to the topic of inclusion, I know Mia has something to say around that because I know you don't like that word too much. Even though nowadays a lot of businesses and people on social media preach and post about inclusivity. 

Mia: A friend of mine is someone who made me aware of it. She one day just said that I am not using that word anymore. So I asked her why and she said the fact is we are here, so you don't need to include us. Which I resonated with. If you think about the word inclusion it means that something is separating, which is why I don't like the word. In reality, there are disadvantages every day such as unequal rights yet the fact is we are here and in all shapes and forms and genders and colours and the real fact is you can't get rid of us because we are here. So the question is: do I want to be included? And my answer is no I don't want to be included because I am already a part of it and I want to be acknowledged for who I am. I want this to be a unity and that means I include you in my world if you acknowledge LGBTQI+. So this is why I took a step back from the word inclusion. 

Simone: What can businesses do to acknowledge people from the LGBTQI+ community within the organization and outside the organization?

Mia: First of all it has to start with your perception, mindset, and education. When I am a person who is eagerr for equity, equality, and acknowledgment; I have to do the work and learn. This means I am not just walking around trying to figure out if someone is gay or not, I do it whether someone is gay or not. I just do it. Just relating to what you said about the homophobic comment, whether that person was gay or not, it should be someone’s value and the thinking should be that we are all equal without any discrimination. That’s it. Our values should be represented in everything we do, not only in certain situations. On a business level, bring up the topic, set up a meeting, start the discussion of the matter and be a leader. It isn’t just about the LGBTQI+ it is about understanding that we are diverse. Just opening up the conversation and understanding that some people have had to overcome challenges to get where they are so some people have different starting points. 

Just open up your mind to support each other to come together. I think if you bring this mindset and culture into an organization in which you are open and people are allowed to be who they are without being discriminated against or judged and everyone feels like they are safe brings a sense of security. If you want to show that you care as a corporate you have to accept that you really mean it and do something that doesn’t bring you any bad faith. That you might actually spend a lot of money on the event and you are not a sponsor and you don't get anything out of it, but you believe in it and you care about it and not the financial return.

Simone: So we have explored creating space for communication, but there is such a thing as too much communication… Because on one hand we are encouraged to ask questions and learn from people who are different from us. But sometimes I think the line is blurred on something that could make us feel uncomfortable. So Claire, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Claire: I have plenty of experiences that I can draw upon for this topic. One of them is when I started to come out, which was about 7 years ago. I had known for a very long time, it was in my consciousness building up and it felt like a big unfulfilled hole in me and I thought that I had to do this. So when I began the process I was very open, very authentic, and very much myself which started to invite some very unsolicited questions. Which ranged from questions like ‘how do you know?’ which might sound innocent but when it then leads onto the next question ‘Well, how do you know if you never slept with a bloke?’ which is a huge assumption because we have all had our experiences and we all have our journey. So then who is that person (quite often a stranger to me) to ask me those sort of questions from just meeting me? I found that often it was usually male, someone who may or may not have been showing an interest in me (obviously I was completely oblivious to the case if it was) but they also found it appropriate from their side in asking me these questions. Like ‘are you having children and how are you going to go about it’ ‘how do you feel about marriage’ and I would always, in turn, say that it is firstly a very personal subject and it isn’t appropriate for you to go around asking these types of questions right off the bat. There is a time, place, and stage in your life when these conversations feel relevant and this is a conversation that I would have with my partner and the people I choose to have the conversation with without it being too shoved in their faces, it is about getting people to understand what is appropriate to ask when you first meet people. What I do now is to turn it around on them and ask, how would you feel if I asked you whether or not you wanted children. It’s personal and it is not necessarily something cool to ask...whenever I walked into a new role I found that parents would naturally ask if I had children and I would turn around and say no I don't. But on some level it would shut the conversation off and because they have a family outside of their environment that is what they are passionate about. So if I naturally entered that conversation, but it went deeper and got into questions like ‘do you want children, etc’ then it would be relevant because it is an organic conversation rather than just asking bluntly…So to conclude this point, it is your approach, it is timing and it is if it appropriate to ask.

Ian: A few things I wanted to mention. When you are thinking about asking an LGBTQI+ person a question before you ask it, reverse it onto yourself to test the personal feeling or the absurdity of what you may say. For example, when Claire was asked if she had ever tried with the opposite sex; if someone asked you that, how would you react to that? 

Another thing I’d like to mention is to consider the sensitivity, because sometimes when people ask about family and children for example; if you knew a couple was trying to have a child together would you continue to press and say have you tried this or that? When I was growing up and was about 10 or 12 years old I had the same picture in my head that everybody else had with a wife, kids, and a house and it was quite a crushing experience in my teens to acknowledge that might not happen for me. The idea of not being able to have a beautiful wife and house and couple of children was a really traumatic experience to understand. That it was a lot more complex for me. So it was more uncomfortable and traumatic for me when people asked questions about whether or not I wanted kids and I wanted to share my experience so you can see how these types of conversations can impact someone. 

Mia: I think it is a very important point to touch on sensitivity and how to work with it. I think I will go back to my initial point on educating yourself. There are endless resources in books and videos to understand the community or social group instead of just asking. I am a part of other groups too. I am a white person and understand that I have to educate myself on the matter. I am a white person and cannot just go to a non-white person and be like ‘ I dont know anything about the subject educate me ’ that is wrong and need to do that part yourself. You have to educate yourself first and then ask for permission from the person you have approached on whether they are comfortable discussing the topic at hand in the first place. And if that person chooses not to have the conversation, then dont be mad at them because that could be a follow-up reaction. It is their choice. 

Simone: If you really are interested...GOOGLE IT. You are essentially asking people about their sexual nature...I have two more questions. Let me tell you first why I am asking. I was recently in Italy and I had a conversation with an older member of my family about gay marriages and them having kids. What broke my heart was when “that poor kid” was used to describe the situation. The family member then went on to talk about how they are not going to fit into a society which was difficult to hear. Having said that, she’s also 90 years old...she grew up in a very different way.

From your perspective, where do you draw the line trying to change someone’s mind who is from a generation that would be impossible for them to understand or if you want to have the conversation how do you have it?

Claire: I certainly have had a generational experience myself and it was terrifying. The particular relative I have in mind is very traditional and it is almost like a matriarch of my family so you can imagine someone whose opinion would make a difference. Now, I found that when the time came which was a big family event and I had brought my partner at the time, introduced them and it was a case of “oh it is lovely to meet you’ and just comfortable having a conversation. This relative then turned to me nodding and said ‘I am proud of you.’ I am very comfortable with my sexuality and everything but this was one of the moments when I thought that their opinion would actually make a difference. The only thing that comes to mind about this relative is despite them being very open to having conversations, they always referred to my partner as ‘friend’. This could be for any number of reasons, but it most likely is to make themselves more comfortable. 

On another generational level, I have had it with people who are in my mums’ generation who are in their 50s so anyone in their 40s-50s. What I’d like to mention is that I have noticed that there is a lot more opening of minds because people are experiencing their children or grandchildren being a lot more open, bold and comfortable with who they are within this generation. So they are naturally more curious about meeting the person they are and support them in any way that they do. So I definitely see a new level of curiosity and encourage that curiosity to learn and educate themselves. 

Mia: First of all I’d like to tackle the comment of “you poor child and how are they going to fit into society”. My first reaction is you don't have to say ‘you poor child’ you can say ‘what a poor society’. My advice would be to say what you think. Speak your truth. You could say ‘I don't think it’s a poor child, society is changing. Don’t try and discuss it with someone but speak your truth and stick by it. I had a similar experience with my grandmother regarding mixed-raced children when she made a similar comment of “the poor child”. I then asked her why she thought that. Her answer was because I cannot identify. I tried to understand where she was coming from (obviously not agreeing) and then said to her: what if we all had mixed-race babies and it wouldn’t matter because we all are different colors or we all would be one color at one point. It wouldn’t make a difference. So sometimes it is about making another person see a different perspective...

Simone: It is very similar to the conversation I had. I think the point I was trying to make is: society has moved on. Fortunately, what wasn’t considered acceptable before is so now. Not everywhere in the world, there a lot of places where it is not, but at least it is where we are living now. 

Ian: I’d like to add that there are open-minded people and close-minded people in all generations. Some young people are very unwelcoming and might ask some inappropriate questions. But also when I told my gran I was gay and this is my boyfriend, her reaction was simple “that nice dear’. It was just a non-event for her. So it is more common in older generations to not understand it. But I do want to invite people to not be upset with other people. It is just to open the conversation and dialogue and ask searching questions. In the same way, Mia mentioned, it is helpful when other people do the work. There is also responsibility from our community to also be curious, sensitive and do some work as well on why for example people feel like that of a particular generation. This way, you can meet each other in the middle and have a really good dialogue about it instead of pointing the finger and saying you are wrong and old and what not…

Simone: It has been a very enlightening conversation and I think anyone who is reading this will be able to start to think about how they can support and be an ally to the community. My final question is what is one thing that can be done to celebrate the LGBTQI+ beyond pride month?

Ian: It would be to call out discriminatory behaviour whenever you see it with friends, family, and colleagues at work. If you see it, call it out, even if it’s hard. 

Claire: Never be afraid to be authentic and yourself. You are you. There is only one of you. Honestly, self-love and self-preservation are key. If someone doesn’t like something about you, it’s their problem.

Mia: This is actually a difficult question. I will pin it down to a mindset. I once heard something that changed my openness towards people and towards myself which was “accept everyone as a teacher”. So no matter the situation, take the situation as given, but see it and take everyone that is a part of the situation as a teacher, (including yourself) for what you can learn and what others can learn. Have enough courage to follow through with that truth. 

To wrap up this article, a massive thanks to Ian, Claire and Mia for this important conversation.

Because only by understanding each other differences better we can come together as one.

Don't forget to connect with Ian, Claire and Mia here, leave your comments and share this article.