Unlocking Curiosity for Better Learning (Transcript, Ep160, Anna Gullstrand)

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Some of you have requested transcripts from past episodes and additional content from each episode. I typically share each episode via a LinkedIn post each Monday, but starting today will share via newsletter and include the full transcripts for those of you who prefer to read.

I'll continue sharing more context on each episode, "News worth your time," and more in the Wednesday weekly newsletters.

On today's LinkedIn Presents: Redefining Work Season 9 finale, I'm joined by Mentimeter Chief People & Culture Officer, Anna Gullstrand .

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Episode Key Moments

[00:00:11] The power of curiosity.

[00:04:23] Self-awareness in career philosophy.

[00:08:01] Learning agility in complex fields. [00:11:59] Rediscovering joy in learning.

[00:16:23] Skill-based hiring for growth.

[00:20:07] Team development models.

[00:25:28] Investing in AI for HR.

[00:28:10] Visual communication in HR leadership.

[00:32:02] Authenticity in employer branding.

[00:35:44] Emotional regulation in leadership.

[00:40:34] Psychological safety in management.

Transcript

Lars Schmidt?I'd love to have you open with an introduction for the audience. Yes, of course.

Anna Gullstrand?So my name is Anna and I'm born and raised in a small city in Sweden. And I work at Mentimeter, which is an engagement platform to make your meetings and trainings more engaging and interactive. And the reason I really love to work at Mentimeter is because I've been devoted my whole life to also help like group to flourish and the teams to get to a high performing stage and understand more about the brain and group dynamics and all those things. So for me, it's like super exciting to just work at the company where the product is doing that. And I also work with people in culture questions. And I have a 24 people strong people in culture team at Mentimeter and we are 320 people in total. And we have an office in Toronto, an office in Stockholm and also opening up an office in Sydney.

Lars Schmidt?OK, yeah, well, I want to I want to kind of go back in your career before we even get into the HR stuff, the people stuff, because, you know, following your background, you know, you had a fascinating career that is spanned, as I mentioned, you know, design. You've had your own agency. You've led design teams. You've run businesses. You've been a founder. You've been obviously a chief people officer now for a period of time. And we'll talk about this. You were the interim CEO of the organization as well. How do you think about your career growth and development? Because I think, you know, there are some people who, you know, they have a very set idea of what they want their career to be. And it's a path that they typically follow. I think that is becoming more infrequent in terms of how people think about their careers. Certainly, it's not how I think about my career. Clearly, it's not how you think about your career. So like, what is your career philosophy? How do you how do you think about the things that you want to do next and allow that to guide your decisions?

Anna Gullstrand I think I was fortunate that I found the school very early on that challenged my idea of what a career is. So when I was around 22, I joined a digital media creative school that that's called Hyper Island. And basically what Hyper Island, I mean, Hyper Island was teaching like digital business model, creativity, innovation, all that. But it was teaching it in a way where we talked a lot about how we work together, like what are the values that are driving us a lot about like intrinsic motivation, learning purpose. And we got a lot of tools on how to understand human beings and our needs and what a team need to be able to perform. And we also got challenged to push our teams to becoming more high performing. So and also it was a school, a self leadership school, I would say, or a school for self awareness, emotional regulation and self leadership. So we got asked a lot of questions, like quite like challenging questions about our values. Why are you here? What are what are driving you? What are your strengths? Why are you valuing what you're valuing? What like what like if you look back from where you were a kid, what made you the person you are? Like those questions we got very early on. So when I was only 22, I was asked those questions. And I think that a lot of people start to think about these questions so much later in life. But I did it very early. I was pushed to do it very early. So for me, then it was very clear, like one of my drivers in life is actually to learn, to learn, to learn new things. And I'm very curious by nature. So so I guess that curiosity, I never felt a need to have a clear career path or a clear career goal. So I guess my my goal is to check in with myself. Like, do I feel challenged? Do I feel joy? Do I feel meaningfulness? And if I do that, I I'm performing much higher. And then actually opportunities will will will arise. So, yeah, I don't know if that is answering your question, but that is like, I guess I'm a bit like later on, I learned about the Icky Guy framework. I don't know if you you know, it's a great work. Yeah. So basically, like where's the intersection with my passion, with my knowledge, what I can bring to the world and what I can actually get paid for. So I find that. Yeah. And find that intersection. And I do do believe that without knowing it, that is like how I've been operating in a way.

Lars Schmidt Yeah. I mean, it's interesting hearing you say that, because I think when you when you have the ability to find that intersection and work in that intersection, obviously, as you mentioned, like get paid to do something at that intersection, that's kind of magical, right? Like that's kind of the sweet spot in life and work. And they kind of that intersection that I think everybody strives for. I want to come back to something you said on curiosity, because I think that, you know, obviously, the field of HR has been evolving a lot over the last, you know, decades, certainly the last several years. I've been really keying in on two success drivers in a lot of my work lately, which are network equity and learning agility and that learning agility piece, I think has never been more important because the field has never been more complex and it's only getting more complex. And it's not just in the field. Like when you're in a role like yours, HR acumen isn't enough. Like people acumen isn't enough. You have to understand the business. You have to understand the external drivers that are impacting the workforce and the and, you know, geopolitical issues. I mean, so many things that you have to really understand. And it really to me, it starts with curiosity. Anybody can learn. But if you're not innately curious, you know, learning can feel like a chore. It can feel like an additional thing on your plate that you have to do. But if you're curious, you're going to find ways to fulfill that. That's part of how you operate as a human. And so, like, obviously, in the school you were in, you had to go back to your childhood and kind of assess some of the things that maybe formed the person you became as an adult. Where do you think that curiosity came from? Did you ever kind of do any any introspection back to maybe even your childhood to think about what what kind of set you on that path that made you so curious?

Anna Gullstrand I agree with you about the learning agility. And I do think also what we need to acknowledge is basically that we need to unlearn a lot of things about learning. Like, and I think that if everyone goes back to their childhood, I would say that curiosity is in everyone. I mean, from start. So for me, that is something that we as humans, we are curious because that's the only way that we have survived. So basically, it's I would say that it's in a way hardwired in our brain because that is evolutionary. Like, it makes sense because we are here and we are the species that have taken over the world. And there is a reason for that. And I believe that reason is curiosity. So I think what happens is that it's the it's the school system or our parents or something in an in an authority and traditional society that basically ruins curiosity for us in early age, because suddenly we think that learning is something that you should do. You should study to the exam. You should listen to the professor. You should learn like it's like you're not learning for life. You're learning for the exam because you should get the grade and you need to have a grade to be able to like there's a lot of like, yeah, and all those or have to must should. And I do think that like there is some revolution that needs to happen in the education system that is actually happening in many ways that where we could probably keep more of the curiosity and making like, you know, growth mindset like Carol Dweck research, like showing that like this intrinsic motivating to learn and not have a fixed mindset, but actually like be curious on feedback, be curious on other people's perspective and all that. So so, I do think it starts in early age.

Anna Gullstrand?And I think that everyone can but probably you need to go back a bit to if you've lost your curiosity on the way, you maybe need to do some some work to find it again. And for me, Highland helped me to rediscover my creativity and curiosity, I would say.

Lars Schmidt Yeah, you know, I'm glad that you frame that the way you did, because, again, we were all children once we were neatly curious as kids. And I think the education system, you know, largely is about memorizing facts and information. And sure, there's some concepts, obviously, we use. But I think perhaps that stress and pressure removes some of the joy of learning, you know, and maybe rewires it in our mind of like how we define learning and how we think of learning. And so, yeah, when you think about obviously, you know, you had a school that allowed you to rekindle that joy. Are there any exercises maybe that you've learned? Right. So if we have some of the the redefineers who are on the call right now, and maybe they're in that position where they've lost touch with some of that, the joy in curiosity and learning, how do you rekindle that?

Anna Gullstrand?I would say that I mean, the power of asking questions like as leaders that we we are helping people to to be curious when we stop telling them. What to do or telling them how it is and instead ask questions. So, I mean, it actually was done to facilitate the leadership coach coaching like these fundamentals that we already know works. So instead of giving people the answer, we ask a question and we make people think by themselves. And I think that, like, as I said, like, and also how we see that mentor is like that learning is everywhere. So basically, it's not only for trainings, it's basically, for example, if we want all employees to understand our new strategy as one example, or our new sales process or something like that, then we need to create an engaging learning experience around the strategy instead of just being on stage telling about the strategy. So how we think about it at Mentimeter, we think we see a lot of things as actually learning experiments or experiences and we ask questions instead of giving answers. So we use like a lot of like reflection and creating engagement and making people reflect on and taking other people's perspectives and like social learning. Also super interesting when you learn together with other people, that makes you more curious because you hear that you have different opinions, different perspectives, different knowledge, and you take you take that in. So so, I guess like that's one way to do it. Like, so basically ask questions instead of telling people as simple as that. But also, I would say that be more clear about the if you could call it like rules for learning or the learning behaviors or something like that, that be more explicit with like, we want you to be open. We want you to be transparent. We do around and listen into everyone we take in anonymous feedback and questions so we can explore those questions together. We believe that the solution is in the team. It's not one person that has the solution is actually the collective intelligence of the team. So like just stating those things over and over again to get people into this like learning mindset. So yeah, asking questions and also being clear with behavioral expectations, so to say. And then it's just practice. But I do think reflection is very, very powerful. So we do too much and reflect too little. Like also like at Mentimeter, I noticed that we're running, running, running anyway.

Lars Schmidt?Yeah, I mean, look, I think that that that's not you're not alone in that with Mentimeter, right? I think most business these days are wired to, you know, you've got deadlines, you've got OKRs, you've got whatever measurements you have. And you're working towards that. Everybody's working towards that. And rarely is there much time for reflection. But I also like the way you framed how you how you kind of embed curiosity and growth mindset into the business by understanding that ideas can come from anywhere. And I think that that's another piece that is really as we talk about kind of navigating and really building and architecting this new world of work. We've got to find more ways to harness, as you mentioned, kind of that collective intellect of our workforce. Because, you know, historic industrial era constructs of work is, you know, I have a team, I need three types of widget builders. You're all coming in. You're all working on this very specific, narrow thing that aligns perfectly with your skill set. You punch your clock, you do that, you go home, you come back the next day, you do it again. That's not the world of work now. We've got to find ways to better, you know, we we we cross over here a little bit when we talk about moving towards skill based hiring and development versus role based. And that creates more opportunity for growth within teams. It creates more transferable skills. But what it also does is it opens the idea that knowledge and and ideas and perspectives don't necessarily have to come from that group that is tasked with that problem. You may have somebody in a ancillary group or somewhere off to the side and they might have, based on their own experience, a very unique way of looking at that problem. And oftentimes, I think businesses, we struggle to harness that we struggle to tap into that and create mechanisms that allow our employees to be able to to raise their hand and raise their ideas for projects outside of their own domain. And so I think when you build that in the culture as you have and you reinforce it, you're getting so much more output and contributions from your employees because you're not just, you know, quote unquote, using them in the job that they were hired to do. You realize their contributions can exceed that. And I think that's something that we need to think a lot more about how we really, conceptually, we're all there. But how do we operationalize that? And, you know, for you, do you have any mechanisms within Mentimeter that allow you to kind of you mentioned, you know, anonymous surveys and things like that. But what would be someone's listening and they're like, yes, like I've been struggling with this. How do I do that? What answers would you have for them?

Anna Gullstrand I do think one interesting thing now is also all the conversations about artificial intelligence. And so as I see it, if we operate as individuals only, then actually artificial artificial intelligence can do most of the job you're doing because you're only like one skill solving one thing. What makes like humans like special and where we find innovation and creativity is basically when we have a team working together, when we have this different knowledge, experience, perspective all together and we have this power of association. Basically, I do think like two organizations should probably invest much more in team leadership and in teamwork than in building individual contributor and individual like work because that those things you should actually automate scale and let the robots do it to be frank. When when when we are at best, it's when we're together. And what's super interesting is also that this concept of energy that I talk a lot about in facilitation that basically, as you know, like with flow, that there's as a group, you can actually feel that energy is higher, that the motivation is higher, that engagement is higher, the commitment is higher, the pace is higher. So there's something going on here with like the group dynamics that we can like unleash and harness more. So what we do at Mentimeter is that we actually educate our leaders in a model that's called integrated model of group development, which is this model explaining the different stages a team is going through and also help the leader to understand what leadership approach and behavior they need to to do in each stage. To be able to help the team to get to the next stage, basically. And what this research tells us is that when you are a stage one or stage two team, you are actually not efficient. You're not performing at your highest potential. You're not using the collective intelligence. And basically, you are I mean, you're doing OK, but you're not having this like full energy engagement performance that you could have. And you're. Yeah, so that's what the model is about. And the research also says that 50 percent of all teams in the world are stuck in stage one or stage two, so they never reach a high performing stage. So at Mentimeter, what we do is like we teach this model. We work with our groups. So we do an assessment every third month or fourth or sixth month with our teams. So the people culture team help them with that. And then we just present the results for the team. Like, here's where you are at. These are the behaviors that you're seeing in your team right now. And here are the challenges or the conversations that you need to have to move to move forward. And this is particularly interesting in stage two, which is the conflict stage, basically, where there's a lot of like frustration, resistance, like people like are just seeing each other's weaknesses. And there are like a risk that a lot of like personal interpersonal conflicts with will arise. So it's so important to be aware about this as a leader and to to apply the right leadership in the right stage. And what's interesting is that it's a very different leadership needed depending on on the stage of the team. So I think that is a very concrete way that we actually do this. And I think last year we ran like 40 or 50 group assessments and we're supporting our teams to to reach a higher level of performance. And when you're in that level, then you really feel like the team, the team magic. And then you feel like, no, we can't be replaced by a robot. We're actually providing something unique here.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I'm very bullish on the potential for AI, particularly this new wave of kind of consumer grid and generative AI to make our work better. To be able to offload some of the things that we don't really, you know, they don't necessarily tap into our full potential as humans. More of the like, you know, just that there's a range of areas where I think it's going to be super additive. And I think particularly for HR, like if you're working in HR people today and you're listening to this conversation, I've said this several times, like invest in learning about AI now, like now the time is now. It's not a week from now. It's not a month from now. It's right now because this revolution is is happening. And I think if you can master some of these tools now, you're going to it's going to be a 10x for you as an individual in your career and your teams and your organization, because there's incredibly powerful tools out there that you can begin using now. So please like do not sleep on this. You know, get get involved, make space for again, go back to curiosity and learning, make space for this because it is going to be transformative. And it's going to be in every aspect of our HR and people systems much sooner than you think.

Lars Schmidt?Yeah, can I just add an interesting thing? Because for me, everything is connected here. So basically what I see is like a stage three and four, three or four teams are so highly collaborative and so open. So they will, for example, when a new thing is coming like AI, they will like, oh my God, how can we use this? What can we do about it? How can we make this make us perform even higher? While a team that's more in the in the beginning, they will see it more as a threat. So that's also like the interesting part here that like, that's why it's so important to to build psychological safety, first of all, and then work with this kind of approach. Because the more team you can have, the more teams you can have in a high performing stage, the more open people will be towards what's happening in the world and external factors and learning new things and applying new new technologies.

Anna Gullstrand?Yeah, you know, it's interesting, too. I think when you apply that specifically the field of HR, you know, those those high performing HR teams who are now looking at ways to leverage these new tools to add more value to the organization and the teams and the employees, you know, versus the ones that are more in that kind of administrative transactional, you know, other side of HR, where they see that as a threat. It's going to it has the potential to broaden the gap between those two teams. And so again, I think majority of the field of HR are somewhere in the middle. These tools will help you get closer to that leading edge. I want to go back to design for a moment, because I know that you obviously you've run your own agencies before you've worked in design and arrange different creative fields. I'm really curious about, you know, especially given your background in both design and HR, how does that design sensibility and experience? How do you incorporate that into your HR work? Because I think one of the things that we probably aren't talking about enough is the importance of communication in HR leadership. And I think, you know, historically, what we think communication, it's written communication. It's how well can you stand up at a town hall and talk about a new HR policy that like, yeah, you have to have that. But you've always had to have that. But now it's more of like, how do you communicate visually? How do you communicate digitally? How do you communicate with video, right? In different formats, like a TikTok type format, not saying you need to use TikTok, but like those short informative video formats really resonate, especially with younger generations. And so I'm curious to get your perspective, like that deep design background in your experience. How does that inform and shape how you operate as a chief people officer?

Lars Schmidt?No, but first of all, I think one like design, you can apply design thinking or design processes also to like people, challenges or opportunities or employee journeys or whatever. So first of all, it helped me to actually think of people in culture as designing experiences, for example. So I think that has helped me in the recruitment of our people in culture team, because I have looked very like outside of the box when I've been recruiting to my team. So, for example, we don't have that many people that are from a traditional HR background. Instead, we have like learning designers, we have facilitators, we have group developers, we have coaches, we have organizational psychologists. We actually have one person, one of our employee experience managers, he's from the hospitality, he's been working at Four Seasons hotels. So in one way, it helped me that way to just like, you know, think broader about designing experiences, because like it is an experience. You come to the, for example, you come to the office for an interview, to our office for an interview. What kind of experience do we want to design for that person? Like when they are entering the doors, how do we want it to feel, to smell? What do we want them to think? What do we want them to feel? Those are the things that a designer thinks about all the time. So I guess that has helped me a lot. The other thing is to I guess to not, so in our employer branding, for example, we call it like employer doing instead of employer branding. And with that, we mean basically that we want to be able to And with that, we mean basically that we invest in our people, like in our employees, we invest in our own learning, in our own office experience, we actually bring the whole company to another site or another European city one month a year. So we were all in Vienna for one month. We've been, the Toronto office were in Buenos Aires for one month. So like we invest a lot in ourselves. With the idea that that will have like a ripple effect, because if we are motivated, if we are inspired, if we feel proud of our workplace, that is basically our employer brand. So I guess what we're doing communication wise is that we are not actually having, you know, these communicators in our HR team. Instead, all the employees are communicators. And they have, you know, they have these updated skills, they know video, they do Instagram, they do whatever. So, okay, maybe I'm making this a bit too simple, but it's like, it's actually a very clear like value and mindset that we have that we are not marketing our company. Instead, we invest in ourselves and make sure that we enjoy our time at Mentimeter.

Lars Schmidt?Well, like I think there's a there's an authenticity to your brand when you do that, right? Because then people who are sharing are sharing their experience. They're not sharing campaigns, they're sharing their lived experience, right? And it's a very different thing that I think resonates differently. I mean, you know, especially now, like the field of employer brand is, you know, the digital version of it now has been over a decade in the making. So there's pretty sophisticated teams, but there's also some, you know, much more savvy job seekers. And they know when they're being marketed to as opposed to being, you know, invited inside to take a look at what is actually happening, not a campaign that is presented to make something look a certain way that may not be like the day to day reality.

Anna Gullstrand?No, but I just realized now when you asked the question that actually this is inspired by how I worked with consumer brands back in the days, because the consumer brands were more I mean, all this like trust pilot or ratings or a lot of like customers getting pissed off because bad customer support, you know, like on social media, that happened before I would say those services came into HR. So I mean, I know for sure that the most important thing is that you create a great experience and then people tell about the experience and then you get the referrals and you get the five stars and that will spread basically. And then I mean, much later, we got glass door much later, we got like within HR, actually, this transparent systems that actually shows the ratings of the CEO or the employer or whatever. So I mean, I guess like consumer brands had to face this. This like the most important thing is to be customer centric and to basically be to great to create great services or great products. That's where everything starts. So I guess I in a way, maybe apply the same thinking for HR.

Lars Schmidt?Yeah, no, I mean, that makes sense. And I think there's a lot obviously we can learn from the consumer side of the business, especially as we think about employer brand. And I want to, you know, before we wrap up, I have one more question I want to get your input on and surround the importance of vulnerability and openness in leadership. And, you know, you had a post several months ago, I know that there's a period of time at Mentimeter where your CEO was out, you were in the interim CEO role. And then they returned and you moved into the chief people officer role that you're in now. But you shared a post on LinkedIn that I found really refreshing because it was very open and vulnerable about the feelings that you were going through in that transition. And it was with a level of candor that, you know, we don't usually see LinkedIn that I think was very human and very real. But again, from a leadership perspective, you know, I think we've gone a long way from moving to this persona of like infallible leaders who are perfect. And, you know, in every way, it's just I think now, especially after the pandemic, you know, that model is kind of scrapped. I think people are much more comfortable being real and open. But you had a level of candor and openness that that I don't often see. And so I would love to just learn a little bit more about why it was important for you to kind of share your feelings, share the experience, you know, do that in such an open and public way.

Anna Gullstrand?So first of all, I mean, as we all know, like leadership is about role modeling always. So I mean, I talk a lot internally about self awareness, about self leadership, about emotional regulation, about that you have, we always have the right to feel whatever we are feeling. But we always need to think about our and be responsible of our behavior. So so like this, we need to separate these two things, emotions and feelings, we can have a lot of them, they can be super negative, they can be all over the place. But our we also have an we are obliged in a way in a business context to also then think about our actions, because our actions will trigger other people's emotions or, or behavior and so on. And and it's the action part where we can take control, but the emotions part always need to be, I think, open, open and transparent. And the reason I think this is important is because there are several studies showing that if we're suppressing negative emotions, it actually impacts our well being, it impacts our performance in it impacts our engagement. So like, if I suppress my own negative emotions, basically, it could lead to me quitting, to be honest. And I've seen that also around that Mentimeter, when people are suppressing their negative emotions, and do not like share with their manager or their peers, how they're actually feeling about something to just get that away. And also conflicts are usually like 80% about feelings, actually. But to be able to move from feelings to more rational thinking and get access to our brain again, we need to label our emotions and maybe share them in a safe space and feel listened to. And feel heard. That's like the basics, basically. Okay, now that was a very long answer. But what I meant was that if I'm talking about this, I also need to do it. So I noticed when I came back, or when our CEO Johnny came back, I had a lot of negative emotions about like, not feeling valued, feeling like a bit outside because I had one to once with everyone in the management team, and suddenly I didn't have that anymore. And also that my knowledge was not really valued, it felt like because I've, you know, been in so many interesting conversations about business and product led growth and all that. And suddenly I was not in them anymore. And I, I really like started to understand that it was actually a lot of triggers in me like this feeling, a lack of status, a lack of autonomy, not feeling related to the team. Also a bit unfairness that like, like, I did all this, but now what? That feeling. So, but I also know, by my like profession that this is ghosts, like, emotional ghosts. But the only way to move forward is to label them, to acknowledge them, to share them, and then be more rational about it. And suppressing them will only lead to bad things. So, so that was why. And I really like LinkedIn as a community, I feel very safe at LinkedIn. I know, unfortunately, that a lot of women actually get a lot of like negative comments and direct messages. But I don't feel that I actually get a lot of encouragement and, and, and the curious questions. So, yeah, so it was just about, I guess, it helped me to label my feelings and, and move to the next stage. So it was a way of reflecting, but very publicly in this case. But I also wanted to add that, like, I would never have done it if I didn't feel so safe that I feel with Johnny, my, my manager, like the CEO of manager, because I know that I can write these kinds of things without him taking it personally or because we are also very open with our, our, our emotions and that we're all struggling sometimes. And basically, we talked about it yesterday that when you're in the management team of a growing startup, scale up. I mean, we are all like, we have not done this before. Yeah. Everyone in our management team, it's new. I mean, we are having new challenges every day. And no, none of us have had this job before at this stage of a company. So, we need to be super supportive.

Lars Schmidt Yeah, you know, I it's such a interesting kind of case study for psychological safety, right? Like, that's a concept that we talk a lot about in the field, but you really brought it home in terms of what it actually looks like and how it impacts your ability to be yourself and to communicate freely and to, you know, have all the emotions that as a human you have, but also be able to share them and not feel unsafe in doing so. So yeah, I, I, and also, I think just the role modeling of being able to say, Hey, look, if this is a human, I'm going to be able to do this. And I think that's a really good thing. These are the values that we want to encourage within Mentimeter. Here I am. You're, you know, chief people officer, former interim CEO, and I'm laying it all out there. And so I think that it just it makes the stated very real as opposed to being a poster on a wall. So yeah, I just I appreciate that.

Anna Gullstrand Yeah, because I really want our everyone at Mentimeter to feel safe to open up about their emotions, so we can together find like solutions and next step and, and like, getting access to our cognitive ability again, because that's what happens actually that you in this like threat phase or when you feel, feel threatened, you don't have access to your full capacity. And I want to have that. So that was my, my method. And I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your career journey, your work, your thoughts on curiosity, learning, design, thinking, and so much more. So thank you so much. If the listeners want to connect with you after the show is LinkedIn, the best place. Yes, LinkedIn is please join the conversation. All right, well, thank you so much. And thanks for tuning in and we will see you back here. Same place, same time next week with redefining work reports. Yay, thank you.