Transcript, E210: Gretchen Rubin on appreciating all five senses

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Network ID: LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel: From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work and how that work is changing us.

Couple of weeks ago, I was on a trip. I had some distance from the kids, little more time than usual. I settled into this great book about happiness. And I found myself just savoring this book. Like, I can remember what the pages sound like if I flipped them. The book called for us to use our five senses as a tool for taking a step back and really internalizing each moment, almost in a meditative way.

I thought about how, nearly every day, for example, I walk my son to school. He's four. I notice so little on this walk, not much about my surroundings, not much about him. It's like I'm on autopilot. My attention's elsewhere, or nowhere.

Well, this book, it actually left me thinking about how I could use tools to be present with him, like sight and smell. Today, (laughs) Jude and I really paid attention, and we noticed together how many flowers were in bloom in Brooklyn, so many right now. Of course, being fully present in every, single moment is impossible, and we're human. There's always something popping up, working piling, constant sensory overstimulation.?

But I wonder, how can we put this meditative, intentional act of paying close attention into practice, in a way that can make us more present in the moments that really matter?

Today's guest is Gretchen Rubin. She's a writer, podcaster, and founder of The Happiness Project. Her new book, Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and into the World, is out now.

Gretchen's thinking challenges society's use of success as a metric for happiness. She emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and action in creating a happier life. She discusses how paying attention to our senses can actually help us feel the best moments of our lives.

So why is this important? Well, it helps us slow down and be more intentional about the time we spend with loved ones. We don't get a chance to redo any moment. I don't need to tell you that. I'll let Gretchen take it from here.

Gretchen Rubin: I often say that I write about human nature, you know, uh, how do we know who we are? How do we change what we wanna change? Um, but I think you're right, that a lot of it is just, I really struggle very hard to understand the most ordinary and to appreciate, like, the very routine. Um-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: ... yeah. So, I think that you described it better than I could have.

Jessi Hempel: Well, I wanna talk specifically about your new work around the five senses. But before you do that, I just have a couple of questions that I wonder about Gretchen Rubin.

Gretchen Rubin: Okay.

Jessi Hempel: Okay. The first is, who was 10-year-old Gretchen Rubin?

Gretchen Rubin: Ooh, very much the way that I am now. Um, like, read all the time, very kind of, un- uh, uncoordinated, I would say. I am not a person who has a lot of athletic skill. Loved school. Um, very close to my family. Um, uh, you know, now, under my Four Tendencies framework, I'm an Upholder, and I was definitely an upholder kid who was, like, you know, doing all of my homework, um-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: ... yep. One of the ... It's funny, that looking back, one of the things that I did when I was 10 years old, that I still do, but like adapted for my adult life is, I made these elaborate books, what I called my Blank Books, where I would write a quote, like, my favorite quotations for books and illustrate them with, like, cut-outs from magazines.?

I use quotations in my writing all the time, and I have this Moment of Happiness newsletter, where I sent out a beautiful quotation every day. And I get the same charge of doing that, as I did from copying the quotations in the book by hand. And it's even more fun now because I get to share them with people so easily.?

Um, so very much I see what I do today as related to what I did as a child.

Jessi Hempel: Well, Gretchen, I have to tell you, you have an objectively cool career. You think out loud-

Gretchen Rubin: I do.

Jessi Hempel: You do.

Gretchen Rubin: (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: You just do. And, and we will talk about the five senses, but so much of the, the journey for our listeners on Hello Monday, is "How do I get from, maybe what I always thought I would do, or what I started to do, but it turns out it is not fun, or it is not lighting me up, or I only was ever doing it 'cause my dad wanted me to, to this version of myself, where I am doing something which gives me purpose and lights me up?"

And I know about you, that you originally thought that you would become a lawyer, or at least you studied law.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm.?

Jessi Hempel: So, will you just-

Gretchen Rubin: (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: ... spend a couple of minutes, explaining to us how you got from there to here?

Gretchen Rubin: Right. Okay. Did I ever think I was gonna be a lawyer? I don't know that I ever thought about it. Um, I went to law school for all the wrong reasons. I was like, "I'm good at research and writing. It's a great education. It'll keep ... It'll keep my options open. I can always change my mind later."

And my father's a very happy lawyer, so I had that example in my life. He had put no pressure on me or any expectation that I would become a lawyer. But I think it was also just a clear path. Like, I didn't know what to do with myself, and I knew, like, "Okay. I'll study for the LSAT. I'll take out the LSAT. I'll go to law school. I'll, you know, study for my exams." It was just a very clear path.

And, so, I, I just, you know, drifted into it. A lot of times, you drift into decisions, and it's a huge amount of work. Like, going to law school and what I did in law was tremendous amount of work. But drift is when you make a decision by not deciding or just doing what is expected of you, or sort of what's the easy choice, instead of, like, really grappling with what you want.

So, so I went to law school. I had a great experience in law school, so I was like editor-in-chief of the Yale Law Journal, which is this amazing experience.

Jessi Hempel: Do you g- regret your decision to study law and to start on that path? And then, do you think you would've made the same decision to write, had you not done that first part?

Gretchen Rubin: I think I would've eventually made the decision to write. I mean, I really feel compelled to write. Um, I, I, I think I didn't see a way for mys- myself to be a writer. Like, when I was in college, I thought, "People are either novelists or playwrights or poets, or they're journalists, or they're academic writers." And I didn't wanna be any of those things. Like, the idea of creative non-fiction just wasn't as, uh, uh, nearly, uh, a- you know, as popular it is now.

So, I think I just didn't understand how to fit, like, my creative impulses into the writing world. And I ... And then, with time and with greater experience, I began to seem like, there is a way for me to write the kind of book I would wanna write. So, I think part of it was that.

Do I regret law? I do not regret law. It worked out so well for me. Yeah, I had a d- ... I had a fantastic experience. But what I do regret is that I did it so unmindfully. I didn't, even at the time, think, like, "Well, Gretchen, you're really taking the easy way now." I just was li- ... I, I just hardly even thought about it.

First of all, there's the opportunity cost. You know, it's three years of your life. Um, the time, energy, and money is so significant. I regret the process by which I arrived at the decision, but maybe it was all for the best.?

I would read p- about people with interesting writing jobs, and I would just be sick with envy. And that told me something. And I thought, "You know, I'd rather fail as a writer, than succeed as a lawyer, at this point. I need ... I have an idea for a book. I've done all this work. I need to take my shot. I need to either succeed or fail. If I fail, I'll figure out what to do next."

Jessi Hempel: And what did you learn from the first book? What did it tell you about your role as a writer and what you would do next?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, the big thing for writers is like, "Are you gonna write another book?" Which I did not know about that. I mean, I didn't know how to do it. One thing about being a writer is, you know how to write a book, but you do not know how to be an author. I feel like I'm still learning how to be an author. Um, like how the mechanics of it work and how you play your part as best you can, to serve the, the project.

Jessi Hempel: I wanna stop on that one a second, both because we have tons of writers who listen to the show, and because I'm a writer. I actually published my first book in the fall, A Memoir, with HarperCollins.

And, so, I'm ... I am actually in that window that you're talking about. And, so, when you say, "L- learn how to be an author," I actually know that I, I know how to be a writer. I've done that for magazines, 20 years. Uh, I'm confounded by what it means to be an author. So-

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: ... so what do you mean by that?

Gretchen Rubin: I mean, I wish there would be, like, a video with just like, "Hello. You've written your first book." You know (laughs) what I mean? "Hey, Jessi, um, like there's all these things you should do. Like, you should keep lists of all the people that you know who ever have written journalism, have any kind of platform, or who might be interested in your book. Like, keep a list, because they'll say to you, 'Hey, could you give us a list of all those people?' And your mind will go blank, and you'll be like, 'I've never talked to anybody in my whole, entire life.'"

Jessi Hempel: True.

Gretchen Rubin: So, like, keep those lists. Um, be thinking, as you're writing, like, "What would make a good op-ed? What would be an interesting ... What would be interesting for a book talk? Um, how could I think about reaching an audience, maybe a very particular audience?"

Um, and said ... And a f- a friend of mine said to me, "You never know who the true audience for a book is until after it's published."

Jessi Hempel: So, it seems to me, like, what I'm hearing you say, is I'm hearing you talk about the writing part of being a writer, and it sounds like that really lights you up.

But more curious to me is, I'm hearing you talk with a great deal of lightness about the marketing part of being a writer. Do you love that part too? That's a unique part to love.

Gretchen Rubin: I wouldn't say that I lo- ... I don't know that I think of it as marketing, but I think about it as trying to reach an audience that I think would be interested in the same subjects that interest me. And, so, I'm very engaged with trying to connect with, with readers, and also listeners of my podcast.

So, I'm very interested in how to engage with people, before a book and after a book. I feel like the world is my research assistant. You know, I, I often will-

Jessi Hempel: Nice.

Gretchen Rubin: ... talk about books for years, about subjects that I'm interested in. And people send me resources and some podcasts and articles and their own experiences and their questions and observations, and it just is constantly feeding my imagination.

So, I really welcome anything that's gonna help me, like, to close that loop between book and reader, um, or listener-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: ... for people who listen to audiobooks. Um, and, so, I, I think sometimes, with writers especially, sometimes with all people, like, the words can get, like, can sort of t- set your teeth on edge.

So, for people who are like, "People keep telling me that I'm a brand." I'm like, "Maybe you're not a brand. Maybe you're a voice. Do you feel comfortable being a voice?"

And pe- ... And a lot of times, people are like, "Oh, yeah, I, I don't mind being a voice. I don' wanna be a brand."

"Okay. That's, that ... It's basically a lot the same." But, it ... Sometimes the ... So, sometimes, instead of thinking about marketing, you could think about connecting with an audience. And then might feel more, um, am- amenable to you, whereas certain other words may just kind of, um, make you wanna run the other direction. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: We're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back, more on the five senses, with Gretchen Rubin.

And we're back. As I mentioned at the top of the episode, today's guest is Gretchen Rubin. She's a renowned author and speaker who has inspired millions of people around the world with her practical and insightful advice on how to live a happier and more fulfilling life. And part of that fulfillment comes from paying attention to the little things.

Gretchen's writing style has a way of making you feel like you're a friend, being invited into a conversation. And it really made me reconsider the pace at which I live my own life.

You know, there's this elegant way, in your own work, Gretchen, in which, in reading the book and in listening to your show, I similarly felt that what you were is the steward of a community.

Gretchen Rubin: Hmm.

Jessi Hempel: As if you were at the dining room table, and there were eight empty chairs, and they were maybe filled by people I knew, maybe even by me.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: So, let's talk a little bit about that book.

Gretchen Rubin: Hmm.

Jessi Hempel: Your latest book asks us, by virtue asking yourself, to examine our relationship to the five senses.

Gretchen Rubin: Yes.

Jessi Hempel: Hmm. Why this book now?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, personally, it came out of something very, uh, like a big epi- ... I am subject to epiphany, which is one of my favorite things about myself. Um, so I had gone to the eye doctor for pinkeye. And, um, as I was walking out, he said to me, "Now, be sure to come back for your regular check-up because, you know, you're at greater risk of losing your eyesight."

And I thought, "No. I did not know that. No one had ever told me that."

And, so, it was a shock. And he said, "Oh, yeah, you know, you're very, very nearsighted, and so you're, you are at risk of having a detached retina. And if that happens, we wanna catch it right away."

And for so- ... And, of course, intellectually, I knew that, you know, at any time, anything can happen to any of us. Um, and I also knew that, if I did lose my sight or one of my senses, I could still have a rich, meaningful life. But, somehow, just that moment, it just really hit home to me. And I walked out onto the street ... I live in New York City, so I was walking hone from the eye doctor, and I was just like, "This is all happening, but I am taking all of it for granted. I didn't notice a single thing on my walk here."

I'm looking around, and it was like, suddenly, every knob in my brain turned up to 11, and I just, it, it was like I could perceived every sensation, with an intensity that I had never had before, It was just like psychedelic experience. It lasted my whole walk home.

And what that showed me was, this is what's been missing. I've been studying happiness. I've been feeling like there's something I'm missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Um, and then, the intensity of this walk really showed me, "This is what I need to know, I need to engage with the world, through my five senses, with what I see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. And that's what going to get me, you know, back in my body."

Jessi Hempel: You know, I walk my four-year-old to school every morning. If you ask me to reflect on that walk and tell you if I saw any dogs this morning.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: Well, actually, I could tell you that I did, 'cause we're about to get get a dog. But should you say, "Did you see any other children on that walk?" I would not be able to do it.

Gretchen Rubin: Right.

Jessi Hempel: I would not be able to reflect back on something that happened today and notice anything about it, really.

Gretchen Rubin: That's a very startling thing to realize. And then, I think it ... You know, often, we don't appreciate what we have until we lose it or we're threatened of a loss. And maybe you're not paying attention to all the things around you on that walk, but are you even seeing your daughter? Like, I realized-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: ... I, I, when I came home, I, like, really looked at my daughter. So, I'm like, "I think they're taller than I remember." Like, how did I not notice that? Or-

Jessi Hempel: Mm-hmm.

Gretchen Rubin: ... it my imagination? Like, I, I realized, I'm not even looking at my husband. He's so ordinary, that I just ignore him. So I'm missing out on all of the, the, the sights that are the most precious to me.

Jessi Hempel: The fact of the closer observation of the sense, is not about creating some memory of what a sense feels like. It's about being in the moment, actually experiencing whatever you're experiencing.

Gretchen Rubin: Yes, and I think this is one of the reasons why, for people who wanna experience the moment or stay grounded, like thinking about the five senses is so helpful. You know, a lot of people use the five, four, three, two, one, uh, meditation. Because, the thing about the senses is, like, you can't bookmark it. You can't save it for later. Um, it's c- it's happening right here, right now.

And with a lotta the senses, say, smell, you can't even glut yourself on it because, if you try to repeat it over and over, it fades away. You cannot keep smelling a smell, um, because your, your brain just is, like, "Okay, that's odor fatigue."

You can smell a new smell, but you can't that old smell until it becomes unfamiliar.

And, so, there is something very special about the way the senses really are telling you, "Okay, it's happening right here, right now," in a world where you're like, "Oh, I'll just binge that later."

We tend to enjoy a sensation more if we're sharing it with other people. That's why we like to share a meal, or we'll go to a museum together-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, which leads me to just ask, um, your husband and your daughters are such main characters or, at least, supporting-

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah (laughs).

Jessi Hempel: ... characters in this book. Uh, what do they think of what you're doing?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, they're (laughs) kind of used to me doing things self-experiments, because I am my own guinea pig, and I g- ... I run these things all the time.

Um, and I did conscript them, uh, for various things. And they all were very willing. I would say, with Eliza and Ellen, are my two daughters, at first, they were cheerfully going along, just to be nice. But then, they realized, like these are fun. Like, now ... You know, I would say, "Hey, I got a new one." They, they'd come running, 'cause they really enjoyed it, because at [inaudible 00:16:42] it was like, "Let's make Jiffy Pop." Neither of my daughters had ever had Jiffy Pop popcorn. And it's like, if you've never done that, it's just bonkers.?

Um, or, like, my daughter and I made a non-Newtonian fluid out of cornstarch. We tried the mberry, that makes sour things sweet. Like, these are just fun to do.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.?

Gretchen Rubin: My husband is a little bit like, he's just ... He's not as adventuresome. He doesn't get as big a kick outta that. But he did do some big things. Like, we did dinner in the dark, you know, where you wear a mask over your face while you're eating? And he was very game about that.

Jessi Hempel: Is there any way for me to know, with any of my senses, that what I'm experiencing is also what you're experiencing?

Gretchen Rubin: I intellectually knew that when I started. But it was ... I was just absolutely astounded by how true that is. We think, "You know, yeah, maybe we have these little differences, but the world is the world." And it's so bananas how our brains are really feeding different information, so we have all kinds of things like our genetic make-up, our particular sense organs, our upbringing, our culture, our expectations, our idiosyncrasies, the environment in the womb before we were born. All these things play into it.

But then, like, you gave an e- ... a b- a terrific example just a few minutes ago. You said, "I know I saw a dog because we're gonna get a dog."

So, what your brain was saying, "Dogs are now important." Before you made that decision, your brain would be like, "Dogs are not important." Those dogs would just fade away. You wouldn't notice them. You wouldn't see them. You wouldn't remember them. But the minute in the market for a dog, or, like, and now, you be, like, "Oh, I see all these pet supply stores. I never noticed that Petco down the street before," because your brain-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah (laughs).

Gretchen Rubin: ... just pulls that back, and other people's brains will pull that forward. So, again, like we are all living in these very particular sensory worlds, which is a good reminder of why we need to be more considerate of other people, because maybe I'm like, "You're making such a big deal out of this smell, but it's not that bad." It's like, "Well, you don't know that, and you don't know what my experience is, or you ... uh, I ... "

And, like, "This sweater isn't itchy." It's like, "Maybe it is to somebody else." You know, we need to try to create-

Jessi Hempel: Right.

Gretchen Rubin: .... an environment where we can all thrive.

Jessi Hempel: Right. And that is so true. It also feels to me like we are on the verge of a future in which our senses are going to ... We're gonna have, uh, the ability to heighten our senses in all kinds of new ways."

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: Um, and I loved that you spoke about trying Ayahuasca.

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: And that you're, you know, I'll, I'll, give you my, my take on your trying Ayahuasca-

Gretchen Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: ... was, like, "Uh," shoulder shrug. "Tried that. Didn't do anything for me."

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah. Uh, maybe 'cause I threw up three times, uh, right away. (laughs) I may have just cleared it out before anything happened. Yeah. Ah, just threw up. Uh, I had a f- like, uh, I had, like, a few visual sensations of mild interest. Fell asleep and woke up, totally normal. So, that was ... Yeah, I had high hopes for that.

But it was sc- ... It was a big adventure. I have to say, I'm glad did ... Back to this idea, of "Do you regret something that sort of ended up not working out, um, the way you expected?" I don't regret it because I was really, really, uh, intimidated by it. And I feel like it's good to do something really outside your comfort zone. And I did. But as a five senses experiment, uh, it did not, it did not live up to my hopes.

Jessi Hempel: Did you come away realizing which of your five senses is most important to you?

Gretchen Rubin: We're hard-wired for sight. It has the most real estate in the brain. We devote a lot of processing power to it. Um, if there's a conflict among sight ... I mean, among senses, sight usually trumps.

So, I think we're all kind of naturally have a sight, and I definitely do have a very ... I do love my sense of sight.

Jessi Hempel: I love smell. I love the way that, without warning, one whiff of a certain [inaudible 00:20:24]-

Gretchen Rubin: Yes.

Jessi Hempel: ... a certain fragrance can put me in my grandmother's living room-

Gretchen Rubin: Yes.

Jessi Hempel: ... in 1981.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: Right? Nothing else can do it for me-

Gretchen Rubin: Yes.

Jessi Hempel: ... quite like smell can do it.

Gretchen Rubin: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: Um, so what is next for you, as you turn to the world again, with this new information about your five senses, what are you curious about?

Gretchen Rubin: Well, one thing that I've realized (laughs) about myself as I was writing this book is I love aphorisms, you know, which are like these short, concise statements. And I realized, as I was writing, I was trying to really distill my ideas to sort of like an en- an intellectual exercise that I really enjoy into, like, the most cogent expression, so like, "The more we know, the more we notice," or, um, "You can't glut yourself on perfume." Things like that.

And one, one day when I was visiting the Met, I had the idea, like, "I could wr- ... I could write a book of, of aphorisms of my own aphorisms. I collect other people's aphorisms, you know, for years, but I could write my own."

And, so, um, I often will write one really big book, and then I'll do sort of a fun, um, like a fun book that's a little bit different. Like I wrote a book, Outer Order, Inner Calm. I wrote a book, The Four Tendencies, which are sort of like, they're not exactly traditional, sort of narrative, non-fiction.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: And, so, I'm really excited to, like, uh, work on my book of aphorisms. It's kind of turned into this strange monster of a project. Like, all these other bits and bobs are getting dragged into it. But I, I'm l- really looking forward to turning to that.

And that's sort of just also, since i- my gr- my subject is human nature, the aphorism is, is a very kind of classical way to address human nature. So, um, it feels like very much uh, a continuation of my other work.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah, indeed. Um, well, thank you for being with us, Gretchen. We will all check out your book, um, the Five Senses, and listen to your show, which I already do, and I really love.

That was Gretchen Rubin, podcaster and author of the new book, Life in Five Senses.

This week on Office Hours, let's talk about how we use our senses to enhance our daily lives. What's your favorite way to relax or unwind, using your senses? Have you ever experienced synesthesia? I love that word. Right??Synesthesia, where one sense triggers another. We'll talk about it on Wednesday, at 3 PM Eastern, live on the LinkedIn News page.?

You can also continue the conversation in our Hello Monday group on LinkedIn. To join, click right from the show notes.

Also, Hello Monday is a show about the changing nature of work. It's supposed to be, at least. I mean, I say that at the beginning of every, single episode. And the biggest thing that is changing about work right now is something we've just talked way too little about, generative AI. ChatGPT is, right this second, introducing changes to every facet work. And there's a good chance that, if you're listening to this, you're already using it. I know I am.

Now, whenever I think about how new technology is introduced, I still assume the mind of the tech reporter that I grew up as. I think of the Gartner Hype Cycle. Have you seen this curve? Google it for a visual. It'll come right up, if you haven't.

Anyhow, whenever a new technology comes on the scene, first, there's excitement and buzz, and those feelings, they begin to mount. And then there's this promise that, "It's just gonna change everything." And then, inevitably, it peaks. We realize we've overhyped its promise. Enthusiasm falls off a cliff. We call this "The trough of disillusionment."

From here, bit by bit, we find out what the tech can actually do. And that's when we start to adopt it and to benefit from it. The technology finally begins to mature.

Now, depending on where you sit, we could be at any point on this Hype Cycle with ChatGPT right now. There are so many unanswered questions about how it will transform work. Some notable industry leaders are worried we're just moving too fast.?

Regardless, the best way for you, dear listener, to position yourself to succeed in a work world that's transformed by generative AI, well, it's to experiment with it, to find out for yourself what it can do, and what it can't do.

Now, many of you are already doing this. And I'm putting together an episode entirely featuring the experiments that you are trying. So, if you've used ChatGPT for anything that has been useful to you, anything from coming up with recipes for brunch or dinners, to devising a way to respond to emails, please get in touch at [email protected].?

And if you've tripped into ways that ChatGPT has really let you down, has blundered a task entirely, well, I wanna hear about that too. What should you not use it to do right now? I'll feature as many of your stories on the show as I can. Again, send them to [email protected].

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn News. Sarah Storm produces our show. It's engineered and mixed by Assaf Gidron. Our theme music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Rafa Farihah, Lolia Briggs, Wallace Truesdale, Kaniya Rogers, and Michaela Greer help us do great things for your sense of hearing. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Dave Pond is Head of News Production. Courtney Coupe is Head of Original Programming. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn.?

I'm Jessi Hempel. We'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.

I think a lot about, with my own wife, in particular, is how we experience, uh, we experience our senses differently, and how it's sort of impossible for me to ever understand how she's experiencing something, apart from the constant fight we get into about whether a certain umbrella in our house is purple or blue.

Gretchen Rubin: Ooh.

Jessi Hempel: (laughs)

Gretchen Rubin: I love things like that. The no ... It's like your own, The dress.

Jessi Hempel: Yes.

Gretchen Rubin: No, I love that. Yeah, cusp colors like that. I love that. I ... Ooh. I wanna see that umbrella.