Transcript, E207: Ari Shapiro on the adventures of a lifetime

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Network ID:

LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel:

From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work and how that work is changing us.

There are people who know exactly what they hope to do in life, either because they have felt called to that work or maybe because it's expected of them. Then, there are the rest of us, tripping forward, hoping to discover something that both lights us up and pays the bills.

Today's guest has a wildly successful and fairly eclectic career.

Ari Shapiro:

This is All Things Considered from NPR News. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Jessi Hempel:

That's right. Ari Shapiro. Maybe you recognize his voice from the NPR show All Things Considered. Ari has co-hosted it since 2015. He's had a long career in radio. But did you also know about Ari that he's a member of the band Pink Martini? Now, his first performance with them, it was at the Hollywood Bowl. Just think about how large that venue is.

When Ari finished college, much like me, he was kind of lost. Today, we're going to talk about his new memoir Best Strangers in the World. And I want you to listen very carefully for the turning points in his career, the roles he chose, but also those he didn't. Ari may not have known what he wanted to do, but he always had a good sense of what's important to him, his values. And maybe that's actually a more critical skill, this ability to define your values.

Here's Ari.

Ari Shapiro:

I've always felt that if, if we approach our professional lives from a perspective of a narrow goal, like, "I, I want to be the CEO of fill in the blank company," then if we end up the CEO of any other company, we're going to think that we failed.

But if instead we approach it from a perspective of, "I want to be in a role where I get to meet people. I want to be in a role where I'm of some good to society. I want to be in a role where I get to use my creativity and no two days are the same," well, then there's literally an infinite number of positions, of jobs, of companies where we might be able to check those boxes and meet those goals.

And so by taking a more open-ended approach, I think, it's way scarier, it's way more uncertain. But the flip side of that is you might end up somewhere that is perfect that you never could have imagined.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Even in the period of time that we have gone through our adulthood, the idea of a career ladder has shifted-

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

... so that at the beginning of our career journeys, we're roughly the same vintage, um, y-, you could kind of think that if you chose most career paths, you could look around at the people who'd done it before you and get a sense of, like, what the next move should be.

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

And in 2023, across the board, in almost every career, like, all bets are off in terms of what your next move is.

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

And so that offers even more ammunition to the idea that being open-ended and being focused on these values, as you articulate, um, is actually probably, maybe it's scarier or maybe it's just really scary to figure out the, how work works right now.

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

It probably is going to help you be more successful.

Ari Shapiro:

I think dynamism and flexibility are, like, the two most important qualities no matter what you are doing in your career, unless you're a widget maker, because in the 20 years that I've been in journalism, there have been so many transformations.

And I talk to people who are just graduating from college now, and they're like, "It's this time of unbelievable upheaval," which is absolutely true. But at least in my life, I've never known a moment that was not a period of upheaval. Like, upheaval is the only certainty.

And if you go into this recognizing that and taking that as a given, then the skills that you're going to work on building are about flexibility and adaptability and nimbleness. And I realize, like, easy for me to say. I've been at NPR my whole life, which is true. But I've done a lot of different things within NPR, and there have been a lot of iterations, and there have been many transformations even within NPR.

And so more than learning a particular, whatever, programming languaging or fill in the blank, I think learning how to learn is the most useful skill set that anybody can bring the sort of career process.

Jessi Hempel:

And that becomes more important as you age, um, and as you grow in your, in your various careers.

Ari Shapiro:

Important and also fun, because the risk, I think, as you age and go through your career is that you just sort of get comfortable. And the terrifying thing about writing a book for the first time is that you know you're good at the thing you've been doing for 20 years. You don't know if you're good at this new thing.

But the people I admire most are people who keep challenging themselves and keep pushing themselves out of their comfort zone and keep taking on things that they might fail at, even if they have built a reputation as a person who succeeds at the things that they do.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, so let's go back to the beginning for a second. It sounded to me like in college you had a sense of yourself as somebody who is very involved in theater and acting-

Ari Shapiro:

Uh-huh.

Jessi Hempel:

... and really like that. Um-

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

But similar to the way that I realize that my creative writing degree was going to qualify me for a job that made about 12 dollars a year should I pursue it...

Ari Shapiro:

(laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

... I feel like you, you maybe had a similar moment around theater, right?

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah. I actually... It was the night before the application for Julliard was due. I was an undergrad at Yale. My friend Rachel Levy sat me down and she was like, "Let's do a thought exercise. You're one of the few people who actually succeeds as an actor. And at age, fill in the blank, 55, you are never in one place for more than a few months. You're always auditioning to try to figure out what your next job is going to be. You have zero job security. And that's the best case scenario. Are you sure you want to do that? And do you want to go deeper into debt to try to get there?"

And I thought, "Hm. You know, you make a good point." And so Rachel and I each listed all of the things that we could potentially do, and we were both liberal arts majors. So, you know, our skills, I don't want to say we had no skills, because I actually think that's an unfair knock on liberal arts majors. Our skills were reading, writing, and thinking, which I think are actually very important. And if you want, we can get deeper into (laughs) the-

Jessi Hempel:

Sure.

Ari Shapiro:

... value of a liberal arts degree. But I had my big list. It included everything from, like, working at Club Med to applying to the Peace Corps. She had her list, which included something at NPR. And I thought, "Oh, that's a good idea. I'll add that to my list."

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Ari Shapiro:

And so I applied for an NPR internship. I got rejected. I went to work at the summer camp where I had been a counselor before in the mountains of Southern California. And while I was there at the summer camp, I found out that Nina Totenberg, NPR's legendary legal affairs correspondent, hires her own interns, separate from the NPR internship program.

So I applied to her, and she gave me a job. And I've never looked back.

Jessi Hempel:

There are two things that I want to call out there. The first is that you, you started with a, like, hearty rejection at the place where you now work.

Ari Shapiro:

Oh yeah. I, every successful person has been rejected. This is a fact of life. Everyone should know that. I'm no exception.

Jessi Hempel:

But then somehow, you managed to parlay that into an acceptance to keep tapping until you tapped the right shoulder. And I think that takes a level of chutzpah and, more than that, courage, um, that it's easy to call courage after the fact, right?

But when you, when you're moving forward in your life, it, it requires, like, a confidence. And confidence is, is hard to come by. Where do yours come from?

Ari Shapiro:

The word I would use would be resilience. I think resilience is important, because life includes setbacks full stop. Every life, every person, no matter what sunbeam is shining down on you, no matter what skills you bring to the experience, life will include setbacks. And the question is how you deal with them when you encounter them.

I often say to producers when I'm out reporting in the field, and I hope I'm allowed to use language here that I don't use on public radio, um, "It's not the journalism. It's the bullshit."

And what I mean when I say, "It's not the journalism. It's the bullshit," is we all know how to go out and do reporting. What we don't know is what to do if, when you're in the field, your flight to another country gets canceled, you, as I did (laughs) on my last reporting trip, have an allergic reaction to your malaria medicine and need to seek medical care and have to cancel interviews. You know, like, these unexpected things happen. You have setbacks, and the question is how you'll deal with them.

And I think bouncing back from rejection is one of the most fundamental skills you can bring to a life.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Ari Shapiro:

Personally, professionally, and... So I'm trying to think where did that come from. I think my parents instilled it in me. I think, um, some of it is just, like, innate, a sense of, like, grit and refusing to lie down and give up, when, when that might be an option.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, just to sort of-

Ari Shapiro:

When that might be an option.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, just to sort of sit in that, uh... That idea for a second, Ari, um, I'm gay, you're gay, we've actually both written memoirs about our lives this past year.

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Um, and I was astounded to learn that you came out in high school-

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

Which in the 90s was a really, like, novel thing to do. I mean, you did go to school in Portland, Oregon, which I think of as like a... It's a mix of a-

Ari Shapiro:

It's a bit left of center.

Jessi Hempel:

Place. It has... Yeah, a bit left of center. It-

Ari Shapiro:

But also, there are neo-Nazis.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah, in a state that is so fully right that you have to like, really look for Portland in the middle of it. A- a- and I just wonder how much of that resilience comes from, um, the ways in which you had to find your voice as a young person. You were also a Jewish child in North Dakota, where you didn't have a ton o- of peers at school who were eating kosher. Um-

Ari Shapiro:

Right.

Jessi Hempel:

You know, how much do you think that those aspects of your identity helped shape your ability to be resilient?

Ari Shapiro:

I think that's astute of you to highlight. Uh, it's absolutely a piece of it. Um, anybody who's in a marginalized group has to, at some point, defend the right to exist. And that doesn't necessarily mean literally defense against attacks, although it some cases it does. In my case, I was never physically assaulted, but when I was in high school, the year I came out, I did carry mace because people threatened me. And so I think having to prove that you deserve to be in a space, whether that's because you're queer or Jewish, or an outsider for any other set of reasons, can build that resilience muscle, and can force you to assert your right to be, and your right to be in a particular place. But just generally, you don't get to take for granted your presence anywhere.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. I think that's true. I also think there's a way in which it hones your curiosity muscle. Um-

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

And this is true for anybody who doesn't exist in any category that is the category of privilege or dominance in a community, in order to get by, you have to deeply understand the community in which you exist, and so you have to pay attention, right?

Ari Shapiro:

Absolutely. I think being in a marginalized group allows you to see the architecture of society in a way that might be invisible to the people who don't have to fight for their place in it. Like, not to really nerd out on you, but I was an English major at Yale, and I wrote my senior thesis on the evolution of the gothic monster. So like, you know, the way that Dracula reflects the tropes of the aristocrat, the Jew, the foreigner, the homosexual, et cetera.

And so today, I look at the way politicians use some of those same tropes and some of those same archetypes in legislation against drag, or outlawing transgender treatment for minors. And I recognize those same themes, and those same tools, and I think like, seeing the mechanisms and the levers in society in that way is something that becomes more visible and a little bit easier to perceive when you are, in some way, on the outside looking in.

Jessi Hempel:

That makes so much sense. Um, and so it doesn't surprise me that you would excel in your... In your early career as a journalist. Within NPR, you did a lot of different things. You covered the justice system, and then the White House, and then you went to London, and on and on and on. You also turned down a lot of different things. Um, so I'd love to know what y- your filter is for when a... When an opportunity is the right opportunity for you right now.

Ari Shapiro:

Generally speaking, when I'm evaluating an opportunity, I wanna know if it's gonna be uncomfortable, which is a plus. Like, is this gonna stretch and challenge me in new and different ways? Is this going to help me better understand the world and people, a- and also, am I gonna enjoy it? Because we spend way, way, way too much of our time working not to enjoy it. Of course I'm not gonna enjoy every single minute, every single story, but on the whole, is this a job that I will look forward to doing? Is the most important question you can ask.

Well, and then also like, how long have I been doing the thing that I've been doing, and am I ready to move on from that? I was talking to my former colleague, Audie Cornish, who hosts All Things Considered for close to 10 years and now works for CNN, and we talked a lot about not just going from something, but going to something. Not just wanting to leave, but wanting to arrive, and I think that's a really important element, too. If you're dissatisfied where you are, that's an important consideration, but you also want to know that you're excited about where you're going.

Jessi Hempel:

We're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back, we'll discuss a dimension of Ari's career that might surprise you.

And we're back. As I prepared to talked to Ari, I went down the rabbit hole with Pink Martini. The band has been around since the mid-90s, it's released more than 10 albums. It tours to packed houses, and you can hear the music in tons of movies and shows. They've performed with everyone from Rufus Wainwright to Gus Van Sant. Here, I just want you to listen to this song for a minute.

So that... That was Ari Shapiro. In addition to his career as a journalist, Ari has a thriving arts practice. Now, I would call it a side hustle, but there's nothing side about it. Ari has been a member of the band for years now. So I put him on the spot a bit. I was dying to know how it happened, and how the heck he balances it with his particular day job. Once again, here's Ari.

Ari Shapiro:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone call it an arts practice before, and that feels meaningful to me in a way that, you know, I say like, "oh, I sing with a band on the side." Which sort of minimizes it. But when you describe it as an arts practice, I think "yes, actually it is." And that's satisfying in a way that is different from just, you know, like, playing frisbee golf with your friends on the weekend, which can also be satisfying.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Ari Shapiro:

Uh, in answer to the question, how did I wind up as a part-time member of Pink Martini? The band started in Portland, Oregon, my home town. And when I was in high school, I was a fan of theirs and would go to their shows in little local bars and clubs. And over the years, I became friends with them. And then they were performing in Washington, DC in 2008, and I threw a... Like, a barbecue, uh, that turned into a sing-a-long, and the next morning, the band leader Thomas Lauderdale who's the pianist said, "hey, you can really sing. Why don't you record a song on our next album?" Which was such a surreal experience to me, because I'd been a fan of this band, like I said, since I was a teenager.

So I went out to Portland and I recorded this song that they basically wrote for me called But Now I'm Back, and then Thomas said, "well, we need to find a time for you to perform live with us, so why don't you come to the Hollywood Bowl?" Which is this iconic venue that seats more than 17,000 people. And... So that was the first time I'd ever sang with any band anywhere, was in this legendary place, and I kind of thought that would be like, the one time I sang with a band. Um, but then Thomas said, "well, if you're gonna keep performing with us, we need to find some more songs for you to sing." Uh, and that was 13 years ago, and I've recorded one or two songs on each of their albums since.

They of course have a lead singer, China Forbes, who's incredible, and they tour all the time. But in answer to your second question, I use my vacation time to join them on tour whenever I can. So they were doing a tour through Florida that was a couple weeks, they had a show in Miami on a Saturday night. I hosted All Things Considered on Friday, hopped on a plane, flew to Miami, did their Saturday night show, and then flew home. And it doesn't feel like vacation, but it feels rejuvenating and satisfying and thrilling in a way that, when I come back to work after that, I just am ready to dive back into the news again.

Jessi Hempel:

I totally hear you. First of all, I wanna go back to the moment when you had to tell somebody at NPR, "oh, by the way I'm gonna do this thing."

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

But, was there any commercial gain for you? Did you have any complications around, um, NPR being your employer and you having this other-

Jessi Hempel:

Ends around, um, NPR being your employer and you having this other public face, because you have one public face. You're the voice that I listen to in the morning in my kitchen, even though your show is the day before.

Ari Shapiro:

(Laughs) You listen on time shift.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ari Shapiro:

Um.

Jessi Hempel:

Exactly right.

Ari Shapiro:

I think if NPR could fast-forward 13 years into the future, and see the role that I play with Pink Martini now, they might have thought a little bit harder about saying yes. But in the moment, I and they thought "Eh, go sing a song on an album with a band. What's the harm? Oh, go sing a show with a band? Sure, this presents no, like, political point of view, this is not some big project that will last 13 years," ha ha ha. And now, it's a big part of kind of who I am and what I do and what I'm known for, and at the beginning I really was afraid that this would somehow detract from my credibility, the respect that I had earned as a "legitimate journalist", and now I'm no longer afraid of that. I feel like it's a part of who I am, and, uh, I don't have to apologize for it.

Jessi Hempel:

As we in our, in our pre, uh, recording conversation talked about, the idea of what it means to be a legitimate journalist has, has shifted and opened over the course of our time in the practice.

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

So, just curious how you see that shift?

Ari Shapiro:

Part of what I wanted to write about in this book was not only the way people I've met over the course of my career have changed me, but also the way that the person I am, my whole self, my history, my identity, has shaped the stories that I've told as a journalist. Because you and I, as you say, both came of age in this era of the view from nowhere, the, the sort of like worshiping at the altar of objectivity, and the pendulum has really swung at this point, so that identity journalists are in many cases front and center. And, you know, when I am hosting All Things Considered, I want to be a surrogate for the listener. I want people to feel like they could be walking with me through the mountains of Colombia talking to Venezuelan refugees. But I also recognize that I tell stories in a way that's different from anyone else. And the way that I tell those stories, and the stories that I seek out and choose to tell, are a reflection of who I am.

And so in this book I wanted to kind of test of the boundaries of that, and explore the, uh, tensions in, inherent in that as it has played out in my career.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Your stories are uniquely your own. Everybody's stories.

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Are uniquely their own.

Ari Shapiro:

Exactly. Exactly.

Jessi Hempel:

Right?

Ari Shapiro:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

And when we, when we acknowledge that, and explore that, we're being more honest with our listeners and our readers.

Ari Shapiro:

But that's not the same as having an agenda. And that's where it gets complicated, because so many people want to portray us as ideological partisans, and I don't think that's the same as saying we bring our full selves to the stories we tell.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Well put. You have had this career that includes a lot of, like, big opportunities. NPR was a big opportunity. Um, Pink Martini was a big opportunity. And you've elegantly gone after those opportunities, but also it occurs to me that there's some luck involved here, too.

Ari Shapiro:

Oh, totally.

Jessi Hempel:

I, I wanna know if you think about yourself as a lucky person?

Ari Shapiro:

Absolutely. I feel so much gratitude for the life that I have, and at times I've really struggled with the idea of every year, I do reporting projects that bring me face-to-face with people on the worst day of their lives. Whether it's a mass shooting, or a natural disaster, or um, a refugee crisis or a war, and then I go home to this bubble of extraordinary privilege. And that's something that I've struggled with, like what do I do with that? And how do I use the luck that I have, the privilege that I have, in a way that does justice to the lives and experiences of those who don't? And I don't have an easy, simple answer. Gratitude is the start of the answer. Giving back is where the answer continues. And, um, just generally, I think, trying to be a force for good in the world.

You know, I, as you mentioned, I'm Jewish, um, and one of the fundamental ideas of Judaism is tikkun olam. Like, why're we put on this Earth so that at the end of our lives we've left the world better than we found it. Particularly because I do have that luck, that privilege, that "good life", I feel that obligation. And it's not a crushing weight, it's not a pressure that I live with every day, but it is a sense of, like, you know, let's, let's try to leave the world better than we found it.

Jessi Hempel:

I think so many people struggle with the tension between how they experience their own circumstances and how they experience the larger circumstances of the world, and when there's a gap in those experiences, how...

Ari Shapiro:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

Like, how they live responsibly? And, and one thing I think, Ari, and this conviction that comes not from people I've spoken to on the show, but from my own sense of living in the world, is that if you are born into a life that allows for it, it is your responsibility to experience as much joy as possible. That in your own private joy also the world finds joy.

Ari Shapiro:

Yes. And I think that's something about being queer, too. That, like, the history of queer people has been one in which we are told we have no right to exist. And not only do we exist in the face of it, but we thrive in the face of it. And we experience joy in the face of it.

And I write about the, the, the transgender women of Indonesia in the last chapter of my book, and one woman in particular. Um, and the guy who introduced me to them, who, it was a doctor who sort of works with this community. And he talked about one of the things he loves is the way that, like, if they're being arrested for, for sex work or for, you know, singing for tips or these other things that many of them do to survive but that are technically illegal, if they're being arrested, and particularly if there are TV cameras, they strut. And they flaunt, and they parade, and they blow kisses, and it's this refusal to bend or break in the face of a world that tells you you shouldn't be there.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think of my own stepfather, who, um, marched in Washington in 1987. Um, was HIV-positive and was arrested over and over, and how the photographs he always had hanging in our wall in the living room were always of him being carted off to jail. And...

Ari Shapiro:

Wow.

Jessi Hempel:

In those photos, he looked like the most remarkable version of himself.

Ari Shapiro:

Oh, that's amazing.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay, so, our theme for the year is this idea of pragmatic optimism. That in the face of so many terrible and challenging things happening all around us, it is our responsibility to find our way forward through optimism. And that isn't the pie in the sky hopeful thinking, but in fact informed optimism. And in thinking about that a little bit, I wanna ask you, do you consider yourself an optimist?

Ari Shapiro:

I love that theme. And I absolutely feel it in my bones. Friends ask me all the time how I stay optimistic in the face of all the stories that I cover, and this book is in many ways a direct answer to that question. Um, I meet people who are bending the world to their will in the face of unbelievable adversity. This woman named Savanna Madamombe, who I met in Zimbabwe in between the, um, Robert Mugabe regime and the current regime, Emerson Mnangagwa. she had been in exile in New York City, um, because she was an activist and if she returned, she could've been arrested or worse. And I met her when she was, like, marching in the streets of Harare, streaming live videos on social media insisting that the city be cleaned up.

I met survivors of torture, who had experienced election violence, who were going to work the polls in the next election because they wanted to ensure that the elections were free and fair. Like, these people, who insist on making the world better, despite unbelievable hardship, these are the people I carry with me, these are the people who I feel like I have no right to feel despair, I have no right to feel pessimism. If these people can be optimistic, if these people can sustain hope, if these people can keep doing the work, well then I sure as hell can. Those people are like the reason I wanted to write this book, you know? The Best Strangers in the World. Like, these are the people when I say who I am has shaped the stories I tell, and the stories I've told have shaped the person I am, that's what I'm talking about.

Jessi Hempel:

That was author, singer...

Ari Shapiro:

[inaudible 00:27:00].

Jessi Hempel:

That was author, singer, and All Things Considered host, Ari Shapiro. We'll link to all his endeavors, artistic and journalistic, in the show notes. I hope you'll check them out and read his new memoir. It's really good.

And now for this week's quick tip. It's our new show segment. This one comes to us from Emily Sharp in a conversation that happened in Hello Monday's group on LinkedIn. If you're not part of that group, you should join us. There's a link in the show notes. Anyhow, Emily's been with us for a long time. She comes to office hours. And someone in the group mentioned being nervous to speak up about something at work.

Well, Emily gave an example from her own life. She described a time in her own career, she is an academic, when she didn't understand some text and needed clarification. Now, as an academic, for Emily, intellect, it's her currency in her profession, right? She kinda felt nervous to ask the author. What would the author think of her? But she did it anyways. And sure enough, the author wrote back, answered her question, and she got on about her work. She writes:

"Ask. Even if it makes you lay awake, worried and doubting yourself at night. After you ask a few times, it will get a bit easier or you'll get a bit more used to being uncomfortable. Either way, you'll get better at it."

I love that advice. I love anything that pushes us to be braver about being uncomfortable. I have to believe that that is where all growth lies.

Now, we're collecting more quick tips. And this week, we have a question. I'm going to post it in our group. I'll share it here. How do you know whether to take a new job that moves you into a new industry? Email us your thoughts and advice to [email protected] or jump in the group and let's talk about it. And join us at office hours. We'll convene each week as we do at 3:00 PM Eastern right on the LinkedIn News page. If you need help finding us, send an email to [email protected].

Each week, I sit down with a couple of listeners to learn more about you. These conversations have been so fun. If you are up for talking to me, if you listen to the show every week, or if you just listen occasionally, I would love to talk to you. So, let me know.

And now, Hello Monday's a production of LinkedIn News. Sarah Storm produces our show. It's engineered by Assaf Gidron. Our theme music was composed just for us by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Rafa Farihah, Lolia Briggs, Wallace Truesdale, Kaniya Rogers, and Michaela Greer help us leave our world a better place with every episode. Enrique Montalvo is our Executive Producer. Dave Pond is Head of News Production. Courtney Coupe is Head of Original Programming. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn.

Now, this episode is is for all the listeners cultivating their own dedicated arts practices, but especially Rachel Druckenmiller and Andrea Lee.

I'm Jessi Hempel. We'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1:

(singing)