Transcript, E189: A guide to surviving layoffs

These Hello Monday transcripts are human-generated, and not further edited.

Here is the episode, if you'd like to listen:

To share your thoughts or questions about this episode or its transcript, comment on the post, or email the team at?[email protected].

Network ID: LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel:

From the News Team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday, our show about the changing nature of work and how that work is changing us. It's been more than three years since I have been creating this show, most of that time with our fearless producer, Sarah Storm, and in all that time, we haven't had a moment quite like this in our economy and at work. I'm talking about layoffs, and yeah. There have been moments where there have been a lot of layoffs. The beginning of COVID, for example, all of a sudden, it seemed like everything was in flux, but that moment was acute, and it shifted quickly. This fall feels different. There's been a long, prolonged even, time of resizing and right-sizing. Companies with names you would never expect to hear layoffs from are ha- reducing their staff by significant numbers. And maybe you're one of the people who has been impacted by that.?

Today's episode is for anyone who has layoffs on their mind. And I know that we have answers at Hello Monday. I don't know that we have new jobs. I don't know that we have a promise that everything is gonna turn out okay, but what we do have is experience, so much collective experience of the listeners who've gone through these experiences and of me and Sarah. And let me tell you, Sarah, in particular, she's kind of an expert on these things and deeply passionate about them. And so, this week, Sarah is gonna host a very special episode on layoffs. Here's Sarah.

Sarah Storm:

Thanks, Jessi. My spouse and I are no stranger to layoffs. Between the two of us, we've experienced several over the last decade. The reasons were different every time, but that never made it suck any less. Each time, we ramped ourselves into survival mode. We freaked out. Sometimes, we fought. No matter the circumstances, we felt so scared and so along. Like Jessi said, we can't stop layoffs at Hello Monday, but we were thinking maybe we could help with the scared and alone part. So, if you're newly laid off or you think you see a layoff coming down the horizon, today's episode is especially for you. For the next half hour or so, we've got your back.?

First, we're gonna hear from some Hello Monday listeners who have been through layoffs of their own. Then, I'm gonna sit down with Andrew Seaman. He's the host of LinkedIn's Get Hired, and he's the guy at LinkedIn to hear from on jobs search and careers. He's gonna offer some tips and advice for how to make it through from wherever you are right now to your next job. First up, we'll meet Sweta Regmi. Sweta's a career and resume strategist and CEO of her own company, Teachndo. Here's her layoff story.

Sweta Regmi:

When I got laid off, everyone's like hush, hush. Like, oh my God, it's my fault. You know, I'm so embarrassed, right? People need to hear they're not alone. I was laid off in one minute over the phone when it, when I was, uh, actually working from home. I was sick, so the other people were let go before me. I think nine of them. And then, I was supposed to be in that batch, so they did it over the phone. I was in the, uh, banking field, uh, contact center. Um, yeah. And I was managing team. A- at that time, I had a leadership experience of more than a decade.

Sarah Storm:

Sweta had a sense that something was up, but that didn't make it easier. After the fact, Sweta realized that her identity had become totally bound to her job, and she needed to do something totally different to work through that.

Sweta Regmi:

I was relating myself so much with a title. I felt like I was nobody once I lost that title. Once the title was taken away, I did not know who I was, and I really had a self-doubt and very, very low confidence. And I did not have a career clarity. How do I bounce back? And I wanted to go out there and do something really meaningful, so I could feel that, um, I am ... You know what? I'm not at the worst moment, and there are a lot of people out there in the world. They probably do not have basic needs. So, I decided to go volunteer back home. I'm from Nepal. So, I picked one charity. We used to sponsor a lot of kids there. I wanted to meet them. Those are my kids. I felt empowered, and then I felt so blessed when I came back. I was fully charged, and I thought, hey, you know what? They took my title away, but they can never take my brain and skills. And that was the emotionally healing moment for me.

Sarah Storm:

After that, Sweta tried to go back to her old industry, but she wasn't happy there anymore. Instead, her side hustle started looking more and more appealing.

Sweta Regmi:

I was doing this, um, career coaching, career consulting to newcomers and immigrants in Canada already on the side but not charging them. So, these were my impact, but I was feeling it. I'm very good at it, and then I was so good at promoting my direct hires as well, so I thought, you know what? This is the industry. I wanna be part of it. So, I started helping people out for free, free reviews, free coaching and interviews, and results were really great. So, I said, "You know what? I'm going to officially launch, and now, I'm going to charge people as well."

Sarah Storm:

And that's when she founded her company Teachndo. Now, she helps others with their job searches.

Our next listener, Marc Monday, lives in Seattle. When we asked listeners to talk to us about their layoffs on LinkedIn, Marc embodied not taking things personally as impossible as that sounds to me frankly. (laughs) Here's the essence of what he said.

Marc Monday:

The thing with layoffs is sooner or later, it happens to everyone, and I think the important thing is to take the stigma away from that, and really understand that it's not about you. It's about the pace of change in the industry, in our economy, and it's going to happen. You can't control the fact that it happens. You can only control the way you react to that happening.

Sarah Storm:

Marc never thought a layoff would happen to him, but the pandemic had other plans. Marc's in his 50s now. He'd been working at his current role at a global networking tech company for over a year when the world suddenly shifted. And in late March 2020, he found himself laid off.

Marc Monday:

I went through all of those phases of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression. And it took me a long time to come to, um, acceptance. Getting away from the being embarrassed or the stigma of, oh, I lost my job, I think that's the biggest challenge. And for me, that's why I wanted to talk to you. The decision is made. All you can do is focus on how am I gonna deal with it, and then what am I gonna do going forward? I think but because it happened at the beginning of the pandemic, it was a double whammy. I had left a very good role that I loved a lot, but I went to follow a leader that, uh, had been a mentor of mine for many years, I have a lot of, um, admiration for, and I took a big risk. And I went to a new job. And unfortunately, the pandemic, the economic headwinds, they all transpired at the same time. And I really felt like, oh my gosh, I made such a big mistake. Why did I do this? Why did I leave this other role that I had at another company? And it was all of that, um, sort of retroactive, um, Monday morning quarterbacking going on. What if this? What if this? What if this? What if this? You know, bargaining with myself, if only I would have done this, if only I would have thought about that.?

Sarah Storm:

That early pandemic layoff experience Marc had, it gave him so much time to process, and that turned out to be something of a gift.

Marc Monday:

There was nothing to do but just sit in it. And, you know, if anybody's ever been in therapy, you know, one of the things that they talk about is be curious. Be curious about where you are. Be curious about the emotion you're feeling. Name the emotion. I'm mad. I'm pissed off. That hurt. You put my family in jeopardy. I, I don't have a healthcare. That's a problem for me. Sit in that emotion. Name the emotions, and then decide that's past. What's next? And the nice thing is because it was the pandemic, there wasn't anything else to do, it was the only thing that I could do was to figure out a way to get past it.?

And honestly, the most valuable thing was taking care of myself. You know, if you remember back in those early days of March and April, a lot of walking. A lot of walking, but what I discovered was, I was doing the ruminating and going through the grieving process, but I also was getting fit. I felt stronger. I was sleeping better. I was eating better, and gosh, those things also help managing stress. I learned I'm a lot more resilient than I thought. And the other big epiphany, and I think many of us, a lot of us realized from the pandemic is I am not my job. I am me, and I have a job. And my career is very important to me. I get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from it, but it is not who I am. That, for me, was an absolute revelation.

Sarah Storm:

Next up, we hear from a Hello Monday listener with a very different layoff experience. Nicole Howard lives and works in the D.C. area.

Nicole Howard:

I've been working in a nonprofit sector off and on for about the last 10 years. And throughout that time, I've been laid off, I wanna say, one, two, three, f- four times at least.?

Sarah Storm:

That first layoff, it came about as she was celebrating her college graduation and enjoying the excitement of moving into a house with other amazing women.

Nicole Howard:

Probably a month after graduation, I was laid off. I was living in Maryland at the time. My family's in New Jersey. Just graduated from college, and now, I had to figure out, what am I gonna do because rent is due? And I think for me, the lesson learned there was you just have to learn to be humble and to ask for help. And sometimes, that's not easy to do especially if you're independent person. You wanna do everything on your own, and in that moment, I realized I can't. I had to ask friends and family to help me out for that first month. And then, I had to go find a job quickly. And I think what I learned from that is to save as soon as possible even if it's small. Keep money, um, so that you have a little bit of something, um, to depend on.

Sarah Storm:

Another of Nicole's layoff experiences came after more than two years of working in higher ed. The job was great, so was her supervisor, but she started to notice that something was up. And this time, Nicole was ready.

Nicole Howard:

Sometimes, you just know to pay attention, and I had already started to look for another job. Funny fact, I found my job right after that one on LinkedIn. Um, never heard of the company before. It was, uh, a tech corporation and ended up applying through LinkedIn, um, to get that role. And I had my interview, um, my phone interview for that job the day I was let go. So, my lesson there would be always stay prepared, pay attention to what's happening and the climate, what's going on, um, and don't underestimate LinkedIn. (laughs)

Sarah Storm:

Nicole's in a new job today, and as she reflects back, there's one kind of loss that still sits with her.

Nicole Howard:

One of the things I realized after being let go is there should be a time to grieve for losing your friendships, losing your sense of community that you have within a job because for me, there are times when it's been so abrupt. When I was let go in the higher ed space, I was let go the day that I found out. I came in that morning, and I had to be out that day. And that doesn't give you a chance to speak to people, to, um, connect before you head out. Um, you can lose that sense of community as adults. I think we, we sometimes learn that there are things we're supposed to mask or just not say, um, and I think I'm learning how important honesty is and being transparent. And so, some of that may be going back to certain people and be like, "Hey, it's been a long time. Like, how are you? How's life? Let's reconnect. Let's have a coffee chat." I work remotely now, so that's a whole different space than where I was before, and I think the key really is being intentional about creating those relationships, um, and pouring into them especially in the virtual space.

Sarah Storm:

Our last listener for today is Robbie Kellman-Baxter from Northern California. Robbie's layoff happened more than 20 years ago when she worked in finance.

Robbie Kellman-Baxter:

I graduate from business school, uh, got into product management. Um, I'd been at a couple of roles in product management. I went on my maternity leave, my second child, and the day I came ba- ... I knew that, you know, i- startups are things are always, you know, up and down. And today, we have great news, and tomorrow, we have terrible news. The day I came back, uh, I went to my manager, and I said, "Hey, I'm back. I'm ready to go. Y- you know, what do you want me to work on?" And she said, "You know what? Just, you know, get acclimated. Get set up. Say hello to your friends. Uh, we'll, we'll figure it out later this afternoon." And then, when I saw her later that afternoon, she laid me off.?

I was devastated. That was not on my radar at all. I was not the only person laid off. A big chunk of the company was, was laid off. You know, you start to look at it from all the different directions when you're just back from maternity leave. There were, you know, uh, pregnant women and new moms who didn't get laid off. There were other pregnant and, and new moms who did get laid off. Um, there wasn't obviously a, a discrimination thing, but it felt horrible.

Sarah Storm:

The layoff hit Robbie hard. She just bought a new house and had a second child. She needed income, and more than that, she wanted to be in control of her destiny. So, she decided to go into business for herself as a strategy consultant who helps people with subscription and membership businesses.

Robbie Kellman-Baxter:

I really just decided, you know, I just need to find work that I can do, that I'm qualified to do that I can make enough money to cover my share of the mortgage. Um, so I had a pretty low bar when I started. I didn't start by saying, you know, I wanna be the leading expert on subscription and membership models and write books. I said I just wanna hit this number every month, and I felt like if I only had to satisfy and delight my client as opposed to the whole organization, there are fewer things that could go wrong. And so, that was the path I took. I started, I would say more as a kinda high level marketing contractor. And eventually, what I realized was, i- this was a very good path for me. I learned that my real strength was in strategy.

Sarah Storm:

Robbie's layoff led to a whole new career, and she's still going strong there today.

Robbie Kellman-Baxter:

So, it's been, you know ... My youngest t- child is, uh, is 19, and the one that was there when I got laid off is 21. And, uh, I'm still, I'm still doing the solopreneur, independent consultant, author, speaker, writer thing that I've been doing, you know, for, for a very long time.

Sarah Storm:

Thank you so much to our listeners for sharing your layoff stories with us. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, practical and tactical advice for anyone facing a layoff.

And we're back. There is one person I knew we needed to hear from today. Jessi's and my colleague, Andrew Seaman. Hello.

Andrew Seaman:

Hello.

Sarah Storm:

Thank you so much for sitting down with me.

Andrew Seaman:

I'm happy to be here.

Sarah Storm:

Andrew, you describe what you do here at LinkedIn a little bit.

Andrew Seaman:

Yeah. So, I, uh, I'm the Get Hired and Get Ahead guy, I think. Um, basically, I started a newsletter about three years ago, a little bit more than that, called Get Hired. And the idea was to just create a resource for job seekers from the LinkedIn News Team, and it eventually spiraled. And now, I have a team that just basically does job search and career-related articles around the clock. My area is basically trying to get people ready for their next play and leveling up where they are, and how to do it in a safe and healthy way hopefully.

Sarah Storm:

Love that. So, that's perfect for this conversation today. So, say I've just been laid off.

Andrew Seaman:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Storm:

What are three things I need to do immediately?

Andrew Seaman:

The first thing you need to do is pause. And I know that sounds crazy, but people who are laid off, it hits at the foundation of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, so they'd go into fight or flight mode. And a lot of times, they start that desperate search for a new job, they start applying everywhere, and it just does not set you up for success in your career or your job search. There's a lot of emotions tied to a layoff or a job loss, so, i- it's going to feel like a loss of your identity. You're going to feel a little bit rejected. Take some time and actually feel those feelings. And then, continue that pause. I know people will think, "Okay, this is going to really set me back," but it's not.?

The second thing that you wanna do is really think about, okay, where do I go from here? Do you wanna stay in the same career? Do you wanna stay at the same type of company? Do you want to go into something completely different? And then, the third thing is once you have an idea of maybe where you wanna go or you start talking to people, research that, and say, "Okay. If I do wanna move into something else, what can I do? What do I need to put together to be a really strong candidate to get the job that I want?" And I think those are the first three things, but the main thing is just take some time. Take that three-day, take that five-day to just, you know, feel the feelings, have a think about what you wanna do in your career. Do that research.

Sarah Storm:

Well, so, so you're talking about pausing. What kinds of things should I be doing during that pause? How am I getting from I've been let go, to I'm ready to find my next employment?

Andrew Seaman:

That's a really good question. So, you wanna have that moment with yourself to think about what comes next for you. And then, when you say, "Okay, I've done this reflection on myself. I've talked to some people, and I kind of know where I wanna go," then really, it's about setting up a routine to figure out what you have to do to get you to that next job. So, if you work Monday through Friday at a job and you were laid off, then, you know, do your job search Monday through Friday. You know, treat it like your job. Um, especially if you have the benefit of unemployment insurance, hopefully, that will get you through for a little while until you need to take a bridge job. Structure your day. So, take lunch hours. It's not a 24/7 job. No job is 24/7.?

And really, you have to build in those brakes, so think about what you can do in the morning. Maybe do an hour and a half of looking for new openings that have popped up on a job board. Dedicate another half hour to maybe s- finishing up e-mails. Take a lunch break. Take coffee breaks, and then do maybe two hours of e-learning. And then, make sure that you're doing networking certain amount of time each week or participating in a job search club. All of these things can be fit in a eight-hour day. And then also, you know, enjoy the flexibility. So, if your kids are at school, maybe go pick them up. And if you're used to commuting, maybe take a walk around the block. I know that sounds sort of simple, but it does at least give you some routine.

And then also, I think it's this is a good reminder to always make sure your identity is larger than your job. I can remember when I came to LinkedIn. You know, I came to LinkedIn on my own terms. I had a good job, but I had been at my previous employer for seven years, and I let it sort of take over my identity. So, when I came to LinkedIn, I felt a loss. So, also, make sure that you're embracing the other parts of your life that remind you that you exist outside of the walls of your offices.

Sarah Storm:

Are you telling me that I'm more than my job?

Andrew Seaman:

I am telling you you're more than your job.

Sarah Storm:

You talked about a tendency that people have when we're trying to meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, like getting those basics, food, shelter, all of that taken care of. And you said that there's a tendency that people have to apply for everything. Why do I not wanna do that, and what should I be doing instead?

Andrew Seaman:

This goes back to the idea, y- and you'll see this a lot on social media where you'll see someone who says, "I applied to 300 jobs in three weeks, and I heard nothing back from an employer." (laughs) If you're sending that many applications out in that short of amount of time, there's no way in human potential that you're actually putting in good applications that are unique and specific to those job postings. So, really, what I always tell people to remember that quality is going to trump quantity all the time. So, you know, you wanna take the time. You wanna make sure that you are using the real estate that you get to put in front of these people to present the best version of yourself. And that doesn't happen when you just send out a ton of applications very quickly. So, really take that time. Put the effort into maybe 10 applications over, you know, two weeks. And then also, you know, network on the side. Think of it as a holistic job search but definitely quality over quantity.

Sarah Storm:

Say, I'm sitting in an interview, and I'm asked about my last position. How do I talk about a layoff? And, and the second part of that, I think, is, and say I've had to take a job to make ends meet in between. How do I contextualize that and keep myself in the running and, and looking great to, uh, to a prospective employer?

Andrew Seaman:

I- The honest truth is you probably don't have to go really in depth about the layoff. Obviously, you could tell them about the position. You could tell them your successes, your track record, and then when they say, "Oh, and you were laid off," you could just say, "Yeah. There was obviously macroeconomic issues going on, and there was a wide scale downsizing." And there used to be this idea that people who were laid off or out of work were less appealing to recruiters and hiring managers, but what we found during the pandemic based on LinkedIn research is that actually, recruiters, they didn't really mind that. Uh, maybe they did previously, but I think the pandemic really put everyone on an even playing field. So many millions of people ended up out of work, so having a work gap or being laid off, it, it wasn't seen as this sort of pariah issue. Everyone have that issue.

So, uh, really, I think it's just sort of confronting it and saying, "Yeah, I was laid off like thousands of other people were." They key is that you are talent and you are available to them. And if you have a bridge job, which is what we call sort of something that you take to, you know, get you through while you get a new job, again, I don't think you really have to go into detail about that. If they say, "Oh, are you working anywhere now?" you can say, "Oh, yeah. I did have to take a job just to make sure I have some income coming in," but i- if it's unrelated to really what you're doing, then it, it doesn't really require a huge conversation.

Sarah Storm:

That's really helpful to know. I think it can be so anxiety-provoking to, to put that stuff into context.

Andrew Seaman:

Yeah. And I think, you know, p- you could rehearse what you're going to say because, you know, it might come up and especially if it's part of a larger conversation, like the Meta layoffs where there are more than 10,000 people who are going to be affected by that. You can say, "Oh, yes. Unfortunately, I was part of that group that was let go," but really, more than that, what are you going to say??

Sarah Storm:

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Seaman:

You know, there's not much you can add to an interview that will give them more context than, you know, they went another direction with the business.

Sarah Storm:

And I was employed at this amazing tech company-

Andrew Seaman:

Yeah.

Sarah Storm:

... for X number of years, and clearly, I had the job.

Andrew Seaman:

Exactly.

Sarah Storm:

Yeah. So now, I wanna roll it back. Let's say I see writing on the wall. I, I still have a job, but things are feeling precarious. What are three things I should be doing if I'm feeling like it's a little bit iffy?

Andrew Seaman:

I think the first thing that I always recommend people is to look at your performance reports. So, usually, if you're being laid off, it's not because of your performance. It's just because of market conditions. It's not that they're targeting you personally even though sometimes, it could feel like that. This is something you should do periodically, which is basically print off all of your performance reviews if they're positive because that will set you up for a really good conversation in job interviews because you could say, "You know, I, this is what they said during my last performance review," or, you know, "I was able to achieve this much in sales that quarter." It gives you those quantifiable metrics. It gives you feedback from your manager. So, I would make sure that you have all of that information. Periodically write down numbers from the HR department because even though you get laid off, there's still maybe a 401(k) there. You have to keep in touch somehow. So, make sure you have that contact information.

The other thing is think of the context that are usually in a work mode or a work setting for you, and think of, how could these people be useful to me in the rest of my career? So, maybe you jot down their e-mail addresses, um, you reach out to them, you say, "Hey, let's schedule a coffee." You can start activating your network. You don't have to say you're looking around or you're worried about a layoff. Just say, "Hey, let's have a chat. Let's re-establish this connection that maybe we lost." And those are three really good things that could set you up for success.

The last thing I would say is basically, you know, start having a think about your career and about what you wanna do next. Even if, you know, you're not laid off, hopefully you're not, you could still say, "I really wanted to go into that new field," or, "I really wanna work at that other company." And you can start laying the foundation to do that even if you're not laid off. So, you know, these are all just good sort of career habits to get into whether you're facing a layoff or not.

Sarah Storm:

Thank you for that. You talked about network. So, it sounds like you're saying make sure that you're connected in other ways outside of the work environment. Is that, is that accurate?

Andrew Seaman:

Definitely. These people don't just disappear into the ether because you're not in the office anymore. If you can get a core group of people together and say, "Hey, listen. You know, we're going to be looking for new employment after we leave here. So, why don't we all help each other?" You can review each other's resumes. You can start putting each other in line for new jobs. So, really, if you are laid off with a bunch of people, reach out to them and say, "Hey, I know this might sound like a weird idea, but why don't we schedule maybe a twice weekly check-in so that we can talk to each other about how we're doing." You get to sort of see some of the faces. Um, you'll hear about their successes, their failures, and you aren't on this journey alone because I think that's sometimes the worst part of a job search or when you feel like you're not back in your career. You just feel alone. And the truth is you're not. There's everyone who's gonna have a bad day at their job, so it's much better to go w-, go with a group of people in your job search.

Sarah Storm:

So, you really just have a community with you.

Andrew Seaman:

Exactly.

Sarah Storm:

Awesome.

Andrew Seaman:

And if, if ... I should say, if you don't have that, if you were laid off and maybe there's only a few of you and someone else got a job rather quickly, there are job search clubs around the country that you can look into. You could l- look online for them. Um, there are online groups now especially after the pandemic, so if you don't feel comfortable maybe starting it, there are also resources in your community that you could look into.

Sarah Storm:

Sage advice. So, you host a live show and you have a podcast, Get Hired, that's all about, like you say, finding this next play, finding the next thing you're gonna do. How does that community rally around each other? What might someone who's recently faced a layoff wanna come to that community for?

Andrew Seaman:

What I've always tried to do is create a space where people can drop in and drop out when they need. Job seekers, you're not job seeking all the time. People come to that community sometimes when they're in need, and they find other people who are in the same boat as them. Sometimes, I'll get messages from people who will say, "Hey, I met someone else in the comment section of your show or in your newsletter, and we've started a little job search club. We meet via Zoom every, every so often." And they're not even necessarily in the same community or same region, um, but they realize that they're going through the same thing, and they could at least talk out their feelings, talk their issues through, and lean on each other.

Um, so they come there for a community. They come there for advice. I hope people take what they need from it. You know, one of the things I always tell people is tell the employer during an interview that you actually want the job you're interviewing for. I know that sounds really simple, but people are afraid to do that. And I got a message from someone who said, "You know, once I started actually doing that consciously in interviews, I started getting offers." And, you know, so hopefully, whatever we're offering, people will take what they need.

Sarah Storm:

That was Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's managing editor for jobs and career development. Jobs are quite literally his business. If you're looking for your next one, we really recommend his show, Get Hired. If you're going through a layoff right now, this episode is as close as Jessi and I can get to grabbing coffee with you, looking in the eye, and telling you that we're rooting for you. Keep us posted on how it's going. You can reach us at [email protected].

Jessi Hempel:

Hello Monday is a LinkedIn editorial production. In addition to hosting, Sarah produced this show with mixing by Joe DiGiorgi. Courtney Coupe is head of original programming. Dave Pond is head of news production. Michaela Greer and Victoria Taylor are key people in our support network. Our theme music was composed just for us by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn.

Sarah Storm:

I'm Sarah Storm.

Jessi Hempel:

And I'm Jessi Hempel. We'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.?