Transcript, E186: W. Kamau Bell and Kate Schatz on doing the work of anti-racism

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Network ID: LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel:

From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel and this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work and how that work is changing us. Humor. Humor can be such a powerful tool for talking about uncomfortable things. It allows us to get closer to the emotional truth of a situation, or an issue. Sometimes it lets us just talk about hard things for longer. Today's guests have embraced humor to talk about racism. And I know what you might be thinking here, those two words, they don't belong in the same sentence. But if that's where your mind is at, well, then you haven't met W. Kamau Bell and Kate Schatz.

Kamau is a comedian and Emmy Award winning TV host. You may have seen him in the CNN docuseries, United Shades of America with W. Kamau Bell. Kate is an activist and the author of the Rad Women book series. Their latest project requires you to bring a pencil, literally. It's called Do the Work: An Anti-Racism Workbook. Yes, a workbook. It's designed to encourage more people and especially white people to work toward dismantling racism. Not just on a one-off basis, but as a practice of day-to-day life. I started our conversation by asking Kamau and Kate, why don't white people talk more about race?

Kate Schatz:

(laughs). Oh, I'll take this one. Many white people don't grow up having challenging honest conversations about race and racism in this country. Some people do, and that's fantastic, but I think that a bulk of white culture, we don't know how to talk about it. We don't have models, we don't see it on TV, in the movies. Um, we don't see it in our schools. We just don't know how to have those conversations. And in fact, many folks grew up the opposite way, where they (laughs), unless they grew up in like a really overtly racist family or community, um, we're often taught the opposite, which is to not talk about it, to ever ... To be color blind, everybody's equal, don't even mention it. Um, so again, we don't, we don't have model. We don't know how to talk about it. And that's hard.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Um, I think that there is a lot of reticent to get things wrong and a lot of uncertainty around what happens when you, when and if you do get things wrong and wouldn't even know if you got something wrong. And there's a defensiveness that goes with it and you really explore this in the book. Why are we so defensive? What is that about? Why in our conversations do we start there?

W. Kamau Bell:

I think we all like to think we're smarter than we are. I mean, not all of us, I don't. I don't think Kate does. But I think many of us (laughs), I think, I think like to-

Kate Schatz:

(laughs). Oh, I'm very smart.

W. Kamau Bell:

... think were smarter than ... Yeah, yeah. (laughs). So-

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

And I think there's a weird thing where after you get to a certain age, you feel like, "Well, I learned all the things." Like, there's sort of a, "I'm done with the learning." And especially about things that don't require you to s- ... That aren't engaging with you in your everyday life. Like, is it for your job? Is it for your kids? And maybe you'll have some more learning in you. But if it's things that you sort of were taught in school ... You know, it's like every parent who gets mad at the new way that math is taught, versus how they were taught math. My mom was mad at the new way. I was taught math, I don't understand regrouping with my kids. So, it's that thing where you get mad at the fact that knowledge changes, or that knowledge expands. And so, I think that's sort of just a human trait.

And th-, so let's say full stop, uh, maybe 99% of us in this country, maybe it's 97%, weren't taught an accurate founding in history of this country up until the present day. Not only that, then some huge things that were told that America- America, white America were always heroes in the stories of America. And you buy into it on July 4th and- and in red, white and blue s- underwear. You know, you buy into this idea as a, as a America being the heroes, specifically white America being the hero. And then something c- comes by, not always or maybe not mostly (laughs)-

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

Kate Schatz:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

... and if you bought into that as a part of your identity, I think you see that a lot in, um, in Southern heritage and that- that they ... That's what they bought into, that's the identity of white Southerners as America. And, or you see it as part of like in people outside of the South where it's like, "Well, but that's not, got nothing to do with me." Like, "I- I don't believe in that, so I'm ... If I'm not engaging in the bad parts of America, uh, patriotism, then I'm a good person." So, I think it's- it's really about identity and how you define yourself and then about how you i- at a certain age, many of us don't want to learn new stuff.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and- and because the process of really learning new stuff and I think this may be what you- you are saying, um, it- it challenges some fundamental aspects of our identity and may mean that we need to let go of them. And it is important not to underestimate how challenging that actually is, to let go of aspects of- of your core identity. And I think that one, uh, one challenge that comes up is that we are just under-educated, chronically under-educated about where white supremacy exists in the systems that we have, that we have been formed by and shaped by. And we need to start by just acknowledging that. And yet, the very act of acknowledging that is somehow threatening and scary, because it opens it up, us up to so much that we don't know. Um, how did you think about that as you began to figure out what should be in your book?

Kate Schatz:

Mm, that's such a good question. And tha- what- what comes to my mind is that, um, is just the idea of stability and safety, right? Because when we talk about white supremacy, like whiteness is stable and like the experience as a white person, there's a stability and a safety. Again, it can intersect with all kinds of different aspects of life in te-, es- especially class. But there's a stability to it. And when you start to unlearn these things, or when you start to face these harder truths, it g- it's destabilizing. And I think that's- that's obviously scary for people. I think that's where a lot of this defensiveness comes from.

So, knowing all of that, I think that was a big part of our approach to the book and is a kind of core part of why we approached this book with a lot of humor, um, and that we did this workbook and that it's playful and that we're intentionally using activities and forms and imagery that's, that feels like something you would've seen in elementary school or middle school. It's funny, but not fucking around, is, uh, our tagline here. Kamau, obviously through his standup comedy and all of his work knows the value of- of using humor to get at difficult things. It's a way to disarm people and it's a way to kind of bring people in to something that is often, um, really difficult and makes people feel defensive. So, we added a lot of sugar to the tea (laughs) with this book.

W. Kamau Bell:

(laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

Um, uh, sugar to the tea, uh, however you think about humor. I think about humor as a wonderfully, um, convening tool. It allows us to be in that difficult moment in a shared experience. Um, that's a long way of saying, I really, really appreciated that. Uh, really, it helped me think about things that are hard to think about.

W. Kamau Bell:

I mean, I think that's ... The humor is necessary. And sometimes people ask me specifically like, "Kamau, how do you come up with humor with all these dark things?" As if they're somehow separate. As if somehow I'm like-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell:

... dealing with dark subjects and I'm like, "Now, where do I find the humor?" As opposed to the humor being how you survive the darkness. The humor is- is a survival mechanism. There's a reason why, if you look at the ... Even the history of standup comedy in America, the funniest comedians were often from the oppressed groups, the people that com- that comedy celebrated the most were the groups that were (laughs) getting the shit kicked out of them-

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

... the most regularly. So, we don't sit around and go, "How can we find a joke here?" It's more as you process it, the same way that like crying is a way to process something, humor is a way to process something. And I- I think we, neither one of us was trying to make the information less polarizing (laughs). Neither one of us was like-

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

... "How do we soften the blow?" It was more, "How do you make it polarizing and also get the message across?"

Jessi Hempel:

Right. Well, I think that, uh, one- one successful thing that the activity book then does when it brings the reader to action through it, is it leaves the reader closing the book feeling like they're on the team. Whatever the team is, they're on the team and that's a powerful thing. And so, I want to talk about the team, so to speak. I- I want, I want you to explain to our listeners what anti-racism work is. What does it mean to be anti-racist?

Kate Schatz:

Well, I'd say, I'm going to ... I love a metaphor, an extended metaphor, Jessi. So, you know that if you're on a team and you're playing a game, um, you don't just get on the team and then sit there. You have to play the game (laughs). And if you want to play in the game-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yes.

Kate Schatz:

... you got to practice. Um, so, to be anti-racist, it's- it's not just to say, "I'm not racist." And then to do nothing, right? It's an active ongoing choice. And I think that's something we try to communicate in the book. Being anti-racist is making a conscious consistent choice on a regular basis, um, to take action. That's a distinction that Dr. Ibram Kendi, um, you know, really lays out. Which is that it's not, it's not just saying, "I'm not racist." It's actively naming and working against, um, racist systems in this country, in your community, in your life. So, yeah, you don't just make the team and then lay back and let everybody else play (laughs). You-

W. Kamau Bell:

I'd love to extend a metaphor and then make it more annoyingly specific. We're not all going to be Michael Jordan. Some of us are going to be Scotty Pippen and some of us are going to be Cliff Levingston. Most of us don't know who Cliff Levingston is [inaudible 00:09:24]-

Kate Schatz:

And some of us [inaudible 00:09:25] WNBA-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah (laughs).

Kate Schatz:

... [inaudible 00:09:27] play basketball too, Kamau. [inaudible 00:09:29]-

W. Kamau Bell:

Oh yeah, I'm just ... I, that's why I said it's a- annoyingly specific. It's annoyingly specific to my Chicago Bull fandom from the 90s. So-

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

Kate Schatz:

Okay. [inaudible 00:09:36].

W. Kamau Bell:

... the idea being that like you can't step in and be the star player. And I think a lot of times, specifically white people who sort of have this sort of like, "Ah, I am going to be an anti-racist," they suddenly think they're the Michael Jordan of anti-racism or the Lebron James, or the Serena Williams of anti-racism, or the, uh, you know ... So, and maybe the Liz Cambage of anti-racism. Look at that, WNBA.

Kate Schatz:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

(laughs). [inaudible 00:09:58]. That- that actually works on multiple levels for p- WNBA fans. Uh-

Kate Schatz:

It does.

W. Kamau Bell:

... so yes, I think a lot of times white people sort of like step in and take, want to take up a lot of space, because white people are used to taking up a lot of space. And then they, and they will, "I'm going to start a nonprofit that does, that does ... " That nonprofit's probably already been started and somebody's running it and it's probably a person of color who maybe would like your help, but wants to tell you what to do. You can't come in and start as if you're the star player of anti-racism. And so, I think the book is really trying to lead you through this slowly so you can figure out what your role is in this, because we all have a role. And if you get good enough at it, maybe one day you'll look up and be the start of anti-racism, but you don't start there.

Jessi Hempel:

I am terribly inconsistent about this work. I'm like on it, I'm definitely anti-racist. I'm on it, I'm on it and then I totally forget all about it for a couple of months and look up and think, "Oh. Oh, shoot. Don't tell anyone, but actually I haven't been on it for the last couple of months." And I say that now because you address that in your book. Um, there's this one page that I really love, it has a checklist and it says, "When it comes to doing the work, what are you worried about? Check all that apply." Which by the way, almost all of them are checked in my book. Um, and, um-

Kate Schatz:

(laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

... forgetting to do the work when I promised to do the work is prominent on that list. I think this idea that maybe it's a long game, rather than a game that we're going to win right away is pretty central to what you're trying to convey.

W. Kamau Bell:

I think a lot of this really is tinged by, we wrote the bulk of it ... I started writing it in 2020 and so there was a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear of the future and a lot of fear of the present and a lot of not knowing what was going to happen next. And I think that that really aligns well with the work of anti-racism, because, you know, uh, uh, every victory comes with another battle right down the road. So, I think the id- ... And also the idea of being that like, you know, I think about 2020, I think about the Peloton of, the Pelotoning of 2020. Like, you know, p- a lot of people got excited about those Pelotons. Maybe people on this podcast right now. And maybe those Pelotons are just hangers right now (laughs), like expensive hangers.

Jessi Hempel:

I don't know what you're talking about, Kamau.

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:11:53] Yeah. No, I'm not pointing any fingers at anybody.

Jessi Hempel:

I road my in May once.

W. Kamau Bell:

Okay (laughs). All right. That's ... Again. But then if you, but then I think it's the idea of being like, then you're not a person who rides a Peloton right now.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

W. Kamau Bell:

Now, you can get back to it, but you can't front and say, "Oh yeah, I own ... " You can say, "I own a Peloton." You can own all the books about anti-racism, but I think the thing we really wa- want to understand is that it's, at its best, it is a thing you are doing every day. And there may be different a- amounts of time spent every day, but I think if you look at like Martin Luther King Jr.'s day planner, or his Google Calendar, it was every day. Now, can we all get there? Probably not. But, it has to be regular. And I think it's no different than like, if I- I follow the Rock on Instagram. He works out all the time, several times a day. We're not all going to get there (laughs).

We can ... And we shouldn't all be there. But there is some way to engage with being healthy that we can all get to. So, I think, I think of it like that. Like, I really think the working out analogy is the thing I think I keep coming back to because it's like, it's something that you have to do regularly to get any benefit from. And on top of that, and this is where it goes back to what you're saying. We all know when we're bullshitting ourselves when we're working out. We all know when you-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell:

... when went to the gym, but you got a smoothie and went to the spa. You know, you went to the hot tub.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell:

You know, you didn't actually-

Jessi Hempel:

But you wore your Peloton shirt when you did it-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yes, exactly (laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

... and the people around you-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah, you wore all your Lululemon. You were head to toe Lululemon, but, uh-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell:

... you- you didn't get any sweat on the Lululemon, except the sweat from the hot tub. So, I think ... Or the sauna.

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

W. Kamau Bell:

So, I think the idea being that like, everybody's at a different level of this anti-racism. And here's the thing, it may be for some people they're just going into the gym because they haven't gone in years, that is part of it. And the same thing with anti-racism. Just sitting down next to your uncle at Thanksgiving and going, "Uncle, uh, Uncle s- Uncle Thomas, I know you went to, uh, those Trump rallies last week and you're, and you're still wearing the MAGA hat, even though we've requested you not to wear it. But can we talk about that?" (laughs). C- that may be your like first level, because that's the level that people don't want to ha- ... That's the level people avoid the most frequently is the relative at Thanksgiving. But that's not the end of the work, saying, "I had a conversation with my racist uncle." Often people think that's the end of the work.

Jessi Hempel:

We're going to take a quick break here. When we come back, more on anti-racism with W. Kamau Bell and Kate Schatz.

And we're back. So, before the break, Kamau acknowledged that those intimate conversations with our family and close friends, they can be incredibly challenging, even as they're the basic building blocks of the work. But Kamau and Kate pointed out that this work takes on a lot of different forms.

Kate Schatz:

So, like, yes, doing anti-racist work can be going to a rally or a march. It can be doing stuff that's really visible. But I also think that some of the most powerful w- powerful work is not necessarily invisible, um, in the same way that kind of domestic labor (laughs), um, and a lot of parenting labor is not, you know, it's like very visible and not honored in this culture. I think some of the most powerful anti-racist work is just what you're doing in your home, the conversations that you're having with your kids, the books you're choosing to read, the movies you're watching, um, the questions you're answering. What you're talking to your neighbors about.

You know, and- and it's, yeah, sometimes it is the conversation with the overtly racist Trumper in your family, but sometimes it's just the conversations with your friends who also think that they're not racist but don't do anything about it. Or, um, calling out the small little things that happen all the time. I think the way that we frame activism is we- we have this vision of it as like you're marching in the streets with your protest signs and that's what it is. But we really try to show in this book that there's like actually a huge range of things that you can do to be impactful and s- the most important work is really, really local in your home, in your community and in yourself.

Jessi Hempel:

I really appreciated how you encouraged white people to talk with other white people about racism. And like, one thing that scares me about that, I will just say, is like getting it wrong. I'm afraid to get it wrong. And you really address in your book the idea of repair. You acknowledge the fact that we are going to get it wrong and then you walk us through what happens next. And I wonder if you might spend a little bit of time with our listeners talking about that?

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, that's one thing that ... Especially when you're engaged in this anti-racism work, especially in the way that me and, I would say, well, [inaudible 00:16:09] myself, but I think Kate too is that we're not actually the leading activists of anti-racism that sometimes people may give us credit for. Like, we believe the work is important. We want to connect people to the sources for the work, but that means that there are times where both of us have- have gotten over our skis, as I heard Barack Obama say one time, and I'd never heard that expression before. So, I want to use it now. Uh, that like, that the idea that there's sometimes where I am like, "Oops," I thought I was doing the right thing or saying the right thing or promoting the right link, or- or highlighting the right thing and I was not doing the right version of it.

Or I thought I was doing enough and somebody's like, "Hey, why didn't you do this over here? You should've done this." I think you have to be prepared to go, "Oops, I'm sorry. What can I do now?" And I think, you know, I always quote, we, I ... We should've quoted it in the book as much as I quoted it. The profit of PBS, Daniel Tiger, who has the great song, "Saying I'm sorry is the first step. Then, how can I help?" We quote that in our house like it's our Bible. But, the idea being that like, the how can I help is essential to the, to the oops, to the, "I made a mistake." To the apology. And I think we see so many examples of bad apologies that no ... They're, not only are they bad because they're the, "If you are offended, or if someone was offended," the if gets in there.

But they also don't say, "Here's what I'm going to do to fix it." And I think we're trying to say, it's really key to say, "Here's what I'm going to do to fix it," or else the apology doesn't make any sense. The Academy Award folks, uh, I guess they're just called the Academy, apologized to, um, the a- the Native American activist who when Marlon Brando won an Academy Award, she did not accept it, but she gave up to give the speech about how the Motion Picture Academy was not inclusive enough of Native American activists. And a lot of Native people on Twitter were being like, "Thanks for the apology, but what happens now?" (laughs). That was 50 years ago, they're going to honor her apparently. But literally, wh- we need to make up for more than 50 years of not doing right. And so, one of the big actions you're going to do, and I think it's really easy in the current era to get social media credit for making the apology, or for doing things that look like or something, but not actually do something that is meaningful.

Jessi Hempel:

Go ahead, Kate.

Kate Schatz:

I think about this a lot and we keep referencing. We're both parents, we both have young kids. And my wife and I have two nine year old boys and they're constantly getting mad at each other or other kids and the immediate reaction from them, if they've hurt someone else, is, "It wasn't my fault. I didn't mean to do it." You know, and I'm constantly trying to reframe that for them, which is that, it doesn't matter. It's the impact, not the intent, right? You stepped on his foot, he's crying. So, the first thing you should do is say, "Are you okay? How can I help you?" Right? And so, we're all so worried about getting blamed and getting in trouble that we completely lose focus on how we help and make someone feel better. So that's ... It applies to nine year olds (laughs), but it applies for adults too. You will get it wrong. You will say the wrong thing. And if you do, wh- what are you going to do? You can learn what you do and you can figure out how to do it better next time.

W. Kamau Bell:

And I want to do this in- in real time. As I was saying that, I was like, "I don't know her name, the woman I'm talking about." It's ... So, I just looked it up, it's Sacheen Littlefeather. So, even- even in real time as we're here, I was giving this example of a thing, realizing, "It's not effective enough if I don't know her name." Sacheen Littlefeather. So, that's the kind of thing that I do all the time. (laughs) I'm big on like-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

W. Kamau Bell:

... hold on, let me Google that. Hold on, let me check that in real time. So, yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, you know, I have a three year old and a one year old and I also live by the creed of Daniel Tiger who is just so good-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

... and lately in our house he has been saying something very related, because we just keep playing the episode which is not sinking in with our three year old. It's okay to be angry, but it's not-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yes.

Jessi Hempel:

... okay to hurt someone.

W. Kamau Bell:

Mm, Daniel Tiger.

Jessi Hempel:

So, listen, there's another thing that I'd love to just like, building off that, talk to you guys about. This righteousness thing that sometimes gets in the way of really healthy conversation. And I feel like repair is a part of how we address it. And here I'm thinking about an example of it. Um, and this was not in your book, I heard you guys talking about it in another podcast. That you were doing an event at Powell Books in Portland, Oregon. How cool? I love Powell Books. And that somebody tweeted, "Well, you know, why are you doing Powell Books instead of this Black owned bookstore?" And that, to me, feels like this one-up-manship of righteousness to some degree, or at least in could be read as that. Like, "Okay, well your work is here, but you know what? Like I know a thing that brings my work to this next level that you should rise to." And I see that happening all the time on social media in particular, and you had a beautiful and elegant way to bring everybody back into conversation. What did you do when that happened?

Kate Schatz:

I saw that- that post and, you know, and I- I want to be clear that it did trigger that sense of panic in me. Like, I- I am not immune to that like anxiety about getting things wrong or being defensive. So, I felt that immediately, like, "Oh no. Ah, we fucked up ... I j- ah. We didn't do ... You know? Da-da-da. People are mad at us." And then, I, you know, calmed myself down. I replied to the person that posted it and I messaged them and said, "Hey, thank you so much. I had no idea about this bookstore, I've never heard of it. I don't live in Portland. Um, super happy to know about it. I'll reach out to the owners and maybe we can go by and sign some books while we're in town." And that person who posted the thing wrote back and said, "Cool, thanks. That's great. They're a really great bookstore."

And then I wrote to the bookstore, um, and we didn't end up going by there because our flight was late and we didn't have time, but we've been in communication with them and we're going to sign some book plates and send them to them for their books. And it was fine. But I get it, that post had that kind of tone, um, which is okay. It's fine. People can do that. But I think often when we see that, it makes us freak out. We think it's going to be a huge thing and then just, you know, reply indirectly and be like, "Oh, thanks. Cool, I learned a new thing. I didn't know about that bookstore."

Jessi Hempel:

I brought it up because it is a beautiful example of what the work actually is. Often the- the work in its most effective form is- is, at least appears small. But it- it is those small movements that bring us back into common conversation and allow us to- to move together. And that one in particular, that-

Kate Schatz:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

... like the way that people use social media to be right, I feel like can be very damaging to this work.

W. Kamau Bell:

I think it's a part of the idea that if you're going to be involved in any work that is this thick, or this thorny, or there's this many feelings involved in, or this ... And it has been not done well and- and people are really working hard to try to figure out how do we dismantle America's racism and white supremacy. Some people are going to have feelings about things you do that they think aren't the way to do it and you have to sort of understand that's a part of the work too. That thing happens to me all the time. Like, I think, I- I was defensive about the thing in Portland, I have to admit it. But I didn't respond. And if you are feeling defensive, then don't respond. And that's the thing I think I have learned is like, if I'm really in my feelings about it-

Kate Schatz:

Mm-hmm.

W. Kamau Bell:

... that's not the time to respond, because then I'm going to try to one up their one-ups-manship and that's not going to get us to the place where the place in Portland gets their signed books.

Jessi Hempel:

So, you know, how did you choose ... Again, this is a question I began with, but it's a question I also want to end with. Your book is, um, it is meaty. How did you choose what went in and what didn't make it in?

W. Kamau Bell:

I'd say most of what didn't make it in were things we couldn't figure out. I mean, the book I think was supposed to be 150 pages. It's 176, so that tells you right there that we pushed the limits of what could be in there. At one point we're like, "I want to do the Mad Magazine page fold in where it looks like one thing and then you fold it in and it's something else," and I just couldn't figure it out. I didn't have enough time to try to figure that out. And- and Kate had one, what was, what was it the rebis?

Kate Schatz:

Oh yeah, I had this whole vision. We worked with an amazing art director name Diane Holton, she designed the book and she commissioned all the artists, um, who did the illustration for the book. Um, all of whom are artists and illustrators of color. And, you know, so a lot of our process was, we'd have all these ideas and then we'd bring them to Diane. And, you know, I- I wanted to do a- a rebis or like a pictogram that tells a story where every other word is like a little image or illustration instead of the word. And I wanted to do one that was about the construction of race and whiteness in colonial America (laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs).

Kate Schatz:

It was like s- [inaudible 00:23:54] historical, geeky stuff. And this, uh, they just couldn't figure out how to make it happen. So, you know, we let that one go. We wanted to do a scratch and sniff page, but that was too expensive (laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

Ah.

Kate Schatz:

And we didn't know what smells- smells we would have. It just-

W. Kamau Bell:

It smells like racism.

Kate Schatz:

You know, we- we played around a lot. We had a really big sandbox of ideas that we just played in and- and just got in as much as we could. And I think also maybe how we ended up narrowing it down is that we just really wanted every page to count. We really understand people's short attention spans, especially in this day and age. Like, we'd love it if you start on page one and read all the way through and complete every single activity. But we also wanted people to be able to pick it up and open to any page and have it be something you could instantly drop into and, um, understand what's going on and be engaged and be curious. So, that- that was also kind of our criteria was really making every single thing in there just like really pop.

Jessi Hempel:

I love that. You should know that this book is now going to the front seat of our car. It's going to be a car trip book for our family.

W. Kamau Bell:

(laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

Um-

Kate Schatz:

Oo [inaudible 00:24:58].

Jessi Hempel:

Right?

Kate Schatz:

That's great. We've heard people have so many ... You know, people talked about putting it in the break room at work or in the staff bathroom (laughs) [inaudible 00:25:06]-

W. Kamau Bell:

On their boss's desk, just going to drop it on their boss's desk.

Jessi Hempel:

All cas like (laughs)-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Hey-

W. Kamau Bell:

Yeah, don't let your boss see it. Just sort of just ... They just go in there and go, "Oh." (laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs). Um, well, I think this book is a great service to our listeners and I hope they check it out. And I wish you all the luck with it. And I look forward to having, uh, you on the show for your next book, which I- I'm already positive we need. So, thank you.

W. Kamau Bell:

(laughs). Thank you.

Kate Schatz:

Awesome.

Jessi Hempel:

That was W. Kamau Bell and Kate Schatz. You can find Do the Work: An Anti-Racist Workbook wherever books are sold. So, this week on Office Hours, we're going to talk about humor. Do you ever use it to diffuse a difficult conversation? I know I do. So, when does it work for you and when is it really a bad idea? I bet the answers here are going to surprise us. So, let's discuss it at 3:00 Eastern on Wednesday afternoon. You can find us as always on the LinkedIn News page, or drop us an email to [email protected] and we'll send you the link. We love listening to and hearing from you, the listeners.

So, even if you don't want to come to Office Hours, drop us a note and let us know what you think of this episode and others. Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn News. Sarah Storm produces our show with mixing by Joe DiGiorgi. Courtney Coupe is Head of Original Programming. Dave Pond is Head of News Production. Michaela Greer and Victoria Taylor keep us accountable to our community. Our theme music was composed just for us by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the Editor and Chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel. We'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.

W. Kamau Bell:

Mm, Daniel Tiger, w-

Jessi Hempel:

So-

W. Kamau Bell:

We're going to look back one day-

Jessi Hempel:

[inaudible 00:26:59].

Kate Schatz:

Daniel ti- [inaudible 00:26:59] let's just do a whole podcast about Daniel Tiger.

W. Kamau Bell:

I mean-

Jessi Hempel:

I think we should.

Kate Schatz:

[inaudible 00:27:03].