Transcript, E171 - Navigating the New Office: How to Change

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Network ID: LinkedIn News

Jessi Hempel:

From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel and this is Hello Monday. It's the second week of our summers series navigating the new office, and I'm cohosting these six episodes with our producer, Sarah Storm. Hey, Sarah.

Sarah Storm:

Hey, Jessi. I'm so excited for today. Last week we talked about interpersonal relationships, and this week we have, like, the ideal followup episode.

Jessi Hempel:

Right, because last week if you think about it, it was a lot about how we know other people better.

Sarah Storm: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

How we basically, despite being perhaps far away from them or working at different hours than them, understand how to key into who they are and, uh, find meaning with them.

Sarah Storm:

Exactly. And this week we're gonna talk about how doing that same thing for ourselves enables us to do one of the hardest things there is, change. And it's so hard to make any little change. And that's why I'm so excited that you sat down with Katy Milkman.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay, so, Katy is a behavioral scientist of Wharton. Last year she published this book, How To Change: The Science of Getting From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. And I felt like this was the right episode for right now, this summer. Um, because we've all kinda had a lotta change foisted on us over the last couple of years. But this is a proactive approach to change. This is the kind of change not that happens to you or that is demanded of you, but that you can [inaudible 00:01:33], you can choose yourself. And that just feels important to me right now.

Sarah Storm:

One of my favorite things about the conversation that we're about to play for our community is that Katy's so compassionate about the ways that we trip ourselves up, and she has so many amazing strategies for getting past those moments and returning to the goal.

Jessi Hempel:

So, take out your notebook, folks, because there's gonna be a lot in here that you may wanna try out right away. Here's Katy.

Katy Milkman:

Whenever we try to change for the better, we struggle because there are so many internal obstacles to change. Whether it's having the confidence to take a shot at it, whether it's forgetfulness or existing habits that are working against you. Maybe it's even the people you hear in your head, because the people you've surrounded yourself with have given you a message that, um, people like you don't succeed. And maybe is that it's no fun. You find it miserable in the moment. All of those things are barriers that work against us making a change. But once we start to recognize what the barriers are, we can use tools from science to specifically counter them.

I do think there's a biggest barrier and a most common. And I would say it is that change is a beast, it's unpleasant in so many cases. In so many cases you're, you know, if you're trying to change your eating habits, you're trying to move away from things that taste better (laughs) towards things that frankly taste worse. If you're trying to change your exercise habits, you're most likely moving away from lounging towards physical activity that might be a little bit painful initially. If you're trying to save more, you're probably cutting back on stuff you love. So, for most of us, and for most change, there's some pain involved, and the fact that there's delayed rewards and instant pain and suffering (laughs) makes it tremendously challenging.

It's not always the case, but I think that's the biggest. So, the a-ha, actually, I think, comes from research showing that when that is the case, when you have delayed gratification associated with change, most of us think the best path, the best approach is what's most efficient. H- how do I get to the goal as fast as possible? What's the most effective root? Um, and research by Ayelet Fishbach at the University of Chicago and Kaitlin Woolley at Cornell University, shows that is a big mistake. Instead, we should be looking for a path to our goal that may not be as efficient but will be enjoyable in the, in the moment, so that it's not a beast to pursue, and so that we'll persist instead of procrastinating or quitting.

So, to make this more concrete, think about trying to get in shape. Most people would say, okay, what's the efficient way? Maybe it's StairMaster that burns a lotta calories per minute, let me do that. But it's kinda miserable. Sorry to whoever makes the StairMaster. Um-

Jessi Hempel: Truth.

Katy Milkman: (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: Truth.

Katy Milkman:

On the flip side, you might say, what's a fun way to pursue this goal? And it might be, you know, speed walking with a friend every morning or going to Zumba classes with, uh, someone whose company I enjoy. That is probably not as efficient as hopping on the StairMaster and just grinding it out, but you're gonna enjoy that and you're going to persist longer. You'll keep coming back, because the instant gratification component is actually there.

Jessi Hempel: Right.

Katy Milkman:

And that ... w- we're trying to work against and fight this uphill battle, and the solution's actually to turn the uphill battle into a downhill one. To figure out, how do I make it so that I actually don't dread doing the thing I need to do? What can I add on top? How can I reshape the path so that I'm not facing the obstacle at all-

Jessi Hempel: Right.

Katy Milkman:

... but instead my innate desire for instant gratification is aligned with what I need to do to get to my goal.

Jessi Hempel:

So, there's a little self trickery here going on, Katy, you're disguising something that is perhaps intellectually good for one or that at least we have decided on, inside of something that gives us immediate pleasure.

Katy Milkman:

Exactly. And there's lots of different ways to do it, but that seems to be the best solution that I have seen to getting things done when the barrier is present bias or, you know, I want the immediate experience to be good and I can't deal with this longterm value, uh, that requires short term pain. So, kill the trade off, sugarcoat it, you know, it's the Mary Poppins approach. The spoonful of sugar. And I often talk about doing this in a way I've studied which is through something I call temptation bundling. And that is distinct from choosing a different way of pursuing your goal, it's actually combining something fun with whatever you don't normally enjoy.

Katy Milkman:

So, to stick with the exercise, just to stay in one domain, but all this could be applied to any goal, whether it's productivity, you know, learning a new language, doing household chores ... uh, temptation bundling in the context of exercise would be, I only let myself watch an indulgent TV show, like, say Bridgerton (laughs)-

Jessi Hempel: (laughs)

Katy Milkman:

... while I'm working out at the gym. And now, instead of dreading those workouts, which felt like a slog, I look forward to them 'cause I can't wait to find out what happens to the characters, I'm totally engrossed in the show, uh, time flies while I'm at the gym. And not only that, I should say another asset of temptation bundling is if- if you're overindulging in something and you limit it so you can only get it when you're doing the thing you should be doing more of, you be- ... you know, you win another battle, right?

Katy Milkman:

Now you're not wasting time at home watching Bridgerton when you should be paying your bills or spending time with your family (laughs), whatever it is that is a higher value add than the TV time.

Jessi Hempel:

So, the things I ... actually, two things I wanna explore with you. First of all, I wanna talk about habits and how difficult habits, good or bad, are to change. If you've done one thing for a really long time, introducing another thing, even u- under the guise of something that we enjoy ... I love the idea, for example, of exercising with friends, um, which is the thing that would make me really enjoy, um, exercising. Even StairMastering with a friend could be fun if the conversation were great, just saying.

Katy Milkman: Yes, totally agree.

Jessi Hempel: Uh-

Katy Milkman: And PS, research supports everything you just said (laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

Right, but eventually, here's the thing, um, since my habit right now does not include that, eventually I'm gonna fall back, because habits are just that strong. And so, what I think a lot about is, okay, wh- what- what then? When do I stop? How do I pick up again? Because I think that, uh, it's the human tendency, and certainly my tendency to be like, "Oh, well, StairMastering with my friend Claire didn't work. Like, I guess I don't exercise now."

Katy Milkman:

That is just the nature of positive change, that there will always be setbacks. What I think arms us best for that is, one, recognizing it, and two, having a plan for what we're going to do to just hop back on the wagon, as opposed to just letting life sweep us away. So, knowing that your friend may someday move or you may have a holiday break where you all fall out of this pattern, what is the way you're going to get back to it? I think the worst thing we can do is just not have the expectation of these disruptions and not have a fallback plan, uh, in place for getting through those disruptions.

Katy Milkman:

That is, by the way, m- the way most of us take life, is just, you know, it comes right at us, we're not being deliberate and stopping and pausing and looking and reflecting on, you know, what's fallen out of line and- and what's the new strategy to get it in line. And then years pass and suddenly I haven't exercised in years (laughs), right? So-

Jessi Hempel: (laughs)

Katy Milkman:

I- I think planning's a key part of all of this. And we're good at planning for some things, right? You know, if you have kids, like, I have to plan their summer camps at a certain time of year. If you are regular about going to the dentist or the doctor, you sort of have a- a yearly schedule of- of getting all your medical appointments setup. Or if you have to pay your taxes, which ho- I hope- hopefully everyone's doing (laughs), right? You plan around that, but we often don't plan around our goals to change, and that needs to be part of the same cycle.

Katy Milkman:

Whether it's a monthly cadence or a yearly cadence, I- I'd recommend monthly, I think more frequent is more useful, given how quickly we can fall off. But we need those plans and then we need to use systems, just as we do in the rest of our life, to get things on track. And never expect-

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Katy Milkman:

... that to end. It doesn't go away, it's not like, oh, you've really got it now. You can forget about systems or planning. It- it does not ever go away. We always need to be checking on ourselves.

Jessi Hempel:

We're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back more with Katy Milkman.

(Ad break)

Jessi Hempel:

And we're back. Now, we've established that it's hard to change, very hard. One of the pitfalls people run into is that they try to change everything all at once. Now, we know that that is impossible, it's a recipe for disaster and yet we try it anyway. Like, every New Year's Eve, when we make our list of resolutions. I asked Katy if there's a right amount of take on, and here's what she had to say.

Katy Milkman:

So, you're 100% right that it is a setup to fail, there's some wonderful research that's been done by a team at UCLA, looking at what happens when people set multiple goals and sort of start planning for those multiple goals. And it shows that it's actually harmful, the more plans you make around different goals, the more demotivated you become, because suddenly you realize, oh my gosh (laughs), this is so much. Uh, and of course-

Jessi Hempel: Hm.

Katy Milkman:

... we don't hit goals if we don't plan. So, that unpacking process for the multiple goals is really problematic. Um, one big goal at a time seems to be right prescription. Of course, you may have a series of goals you want to achieve, but thinking about them as a series, as opposed to as a simultaneous set is really the best way to go. And if you start with one goal this Monday and get on track and start having that built into the rhythm of your life, then once that starts to feel less like an uphill battle and more like your systems are working, that's the time to introduce a focus on what, okay, what was next on my list? (laughs)

It's sort of like a to-do list. You've gotta go through it in order and it can't all be, um, at the same moment with the unpacking that will overwhelm you.

Jessi Hempel:

One thing that you talk about that I use a ton is, uh, this idea of creating, fabricating a fresh start. So, you have your- your New Year's Resolutions, which I talked about quite a lot on this show. So, most frequent listeners will know that I resolved to become a vegetarian. I'm here to tell you that I am not a vegetarian, so that one didn't stick. And yet, I don't feel like all is lost on that front, because my diet's improved a good deal, and also because I have a fresh start for myself. So, I will once again attempt to become vegetarian. Maybe you could describe a little bit of about the fresh start effect is.

Katy Milkman:

Yeah, this is one of my favorite things I've ever studied. Uh, the fresh start effect is this phenomenon where when we feel like we have a new beginning in life, whether it's triggered by an arbitrary date on the calendar that signals something's changing, like a Monday or the beginning of a new year, or the start of a new month, um, the celebration of our birthday, or something more substantial, right? Like a- a change in your work, a change in where you live. These moments that give us a sense of a new beginning also give us a sense that we have a clean slate and a fresh start and that we can achieve more than we would be able to otherwise.

They make us feel like our past failures were the failures of almost someone else, someone in a- an old chapter of life. You know, that was the old me, this is the new me, this year, this week, this job is gonna be different. And in a sense, it's an illusion, right? It- it's, this is our mind playing tricks on us, it comes from the way that memory is constructed, we think as if we're characters in a book and we have this autobiographical narrative where we put in chapter breaks in our life stories. But it can be very functional, it can be very useful to be able to relegate things to the past and say, yeah, okay, last year I didn't manage to achieve my New Year's Resolution to become a vegetarian, but that was the old me and the new me's all over it.

Um, that's useful. It motivates us, it inspires us. And, um, we, I don't think we can create them at at arbitrary moments. There- there isn't ... we don't have an ability that I've seen in my research to just say, "Okay, today is a fresh start." It has to resonate as a meaningful date, a meaningful transition that gives us this, um, sense of- of true freshness (laughs), if you will. But there are a lot of moments like that, including Mondays as- as we discussed. Um, in our research we've shown that people do this naturally.

So, when we look at when people search for the term diet on Google, when they visit the gym, when they create goals on a popular goal setting website, around everything from their health to their career, to their finances, they naturally create more goals at the start of a new week, month, year. Following holidays, following birthday. Particularly I should say holidays that we associate with fresh starts. So, think more dates like Labor Day and less days like Valentine's day. But we can also-

Jessi Hempel: (laughs)

Katy Milkman:

... draw attention to dates that people associate with fresh starts in our research and trigger, um, more goal pursuit. And that, I think is really exciting and it suggests that all of us could do it for ourselves as well, just as you said, on my birthday I'm going to have a fresh start.

Y- you're taking this concept and you're using it to your advantage, you're pegging your goals to that date. And I think we can look for more opportunities to do that. And- and I would predict that should produce better results.

Jessi Hempel: What has your own path been like?

Katy Milkman:

I do feel like studying this, learning about the tools has made me much more effective in my own career and much more forgiving of myself as a human, uh, as opposed to slipping up, which I do all the time, and saying, you know, I'm a failure, this is a disaster, it's diagnostic of who I am and what I'm capable of. I think actually it's given me a mindset, and this comes from research too, by the way, there's wonderful work by Carol Dweck at Stanford University showing that when we have a growth mindset and we say, "I can get better, there are ways that I can grow, we s- we put in more effort, we end up with better outcomes then when I say, I am sort of fixed. I am not a work in progress, this is I have a certain capacity (laughs) and I can't get any better.

Jessi Hempel:

I love that you brought us to Carol Dweck's work. Because, uh, most of what we do in our life is not about arriving at the static moment that the change has taken effect. It's about the pursuit of change. And the pursuit of change is a beautiful way to love a life.

Katy Milkman:

I 100% agree with that. I also think that if your goal's dichotomous, right? And you talked about setting the New Year's Resolution of becoming a vegetarian. Okay, we- we end up with a lot of failures, m- mostly N- New Years Resolutions fail, for example. But- but very few goals are truly dichotomous in terms of thinking about, have I grown as a person? Because as you said, okay, you're not still a vegetarian but your diet is better and that is really important too. And that's one of the functions of trying to change and trying to grow. It's not that we'll always reach our destination, but that we're moving in a good direction. And so, I think that's important to keep in mind as well.

Jessi Hempel: This is beautiful, Katie. Uh, we- we went up, we went down-

Katy Milkman: (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

... we went left, we went right. (laughs) Is there anything that we didn't address that you would love to make sure that we talk about if we're gonna understand your work or why our listeners should go out and find your book?

Katy Milkman:

One thing that we haven't talked about that I think your listeners might really find interesting is the power of giving advice to other people when you're struggling with a challenge.

Jessi Hempel: Hm.

Katy Milkman:

Uh, and the power of asking others to give advice when they're struggling with a challenge, which is very counterintuitive, but there's this wonderful research that's been done, showing that most of us have the intuition when someone near us is struggling, to just offer a bunch of unsolicited feedback to them. And when we're struggling to just go get a bunch feedback from other people (laughs). That's what we think will solve the problem.

Katy Milkman:

And- and this research by Lauren Eskreis-Winkler is a professor at Kellogg School at Northwestern University actually says, we've got the script wrong when confidence is a barrier to change. So, if- if- if you don't know how to do calculus and you need to learn calculus, go get advice, go talk to experts. And, um, if somebody doesn't know calculus (laughs) and they ask you for tips on calculus, you shouldn't say, "Well, why don't you go try to just figure it out and give other people advice on calculus," that makes no sense.

What she's shown though is, if you lack confidence in your ability to get in shape, to be more productive at work, to, um, you know, learn a new language, it actually benefits you to offer advice to other people, um, who are struggling with similar challenges, because being in a position of advice giver puts you on a pedestal and boosts your confidence. It forces you to introspect about what might work for you, uh, and then you offer up solutions that you might not have thought of otherwise, and once you do and you suggest something to someone, you're gonna feel like a hypocrite if you don't do the same thing yourself.

I have started to see in my own life ways that I'm using this, um, to great benefit. One of them being that I have an advice club of women with similar career goals, and we reach out to each other when we're not sure what to do about an opportunity. And it- it started out to me, mentally, as oh, this is amazing, I sort of have a group of free consultants and I'm providing my own free consulting as a way to make it fair. And I'm gonna get all this feedback, it's gonna be great. Also I thought comradery might be nice and might be built, but it to have this magi extra thing that I never anticipated, but I now recognize thanks to Lauren's work, which is, when I am asked for advice on a challenge appears facing and a I offer it, I grow.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Katy Milkman:

Because I see, wow, I actually can think objectively as an outsider through this challenge, it sort of boosts my confidence. I- I do have the tools to figure out what- what's the right thing to suggest to my friend to do. I come up with good solutions and then I face similar challenges myself and I'm totally ready to go. And I have that arm's length distance too when I'm offering the advice that gives me better perspective, but then when the same thing happens to me, I feel ready for it. And I- I don't struggle the way I used to. It's amazing. And I think all of us should, one, have advice clubs, and two, have the mentality when we're coaching, mentoring other people at work, to not always just chime in with our 10 cents, (laughs) or two cents or 20 cents or however many cents you chime in with.

Katy Milkman:

But actually sometimes to ask the person, what would they say to someone else in the same situation? And even to- to give people who are struggling more mentoring opportunities so they can grow through that experience.

Jessi Hempel:

And just to push on this one for a second though, Katy, it also is true that when we perceive ourselves to need advice, we go to the source of information that's gonna give us the solutions that we want to hear. We're doing that anyways. I'll give you a really direct example of a good friend, Heather. And she will often call me when she's about to make a purchase, a pair of shoes. And the reason she'll call me for advice is because she knows I'm a penny pincher, I'm a big saver. And my answer is always, "Do you already have a similar pair? You don't need those."

Katy Milkman: (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

So, when she actually wants the advice to be by the shoes, she calls another friend, not me. And I think that that's what actually what we do when we solicit information. We solicit the perspective we are looking for.

Katy Milkman:

So, then we could ask ourselves the question, or we could give the advice ourselves without that outsider, which is really interesting.

Jessi Hempel:

Exactly. That was Katy Milkman. She does so much deeply cool work on the science of change. Visit her online at K-A-T-Y, M-I-L-K-M-A-N, .com to learn more. Learn all about it. So, now I'm bringing back Sarah, just as we did last week, to talk a little bit about what we learned. So, hey, Sarah, what'd you think of that?

Sarah Storm:

I loved your conversation with Katy because, you know, Katy talks about the two kinds of researchers, like the people who never have any problems and the people who are, like, I'm going into this to figure out my stuff. And she's one of those people who has gone into it to figure out her stuff, and to me that makes her the perfect leader on this, because she's in the trenches with all of us who are struggling to change.

Jessi Hempel:

I thought that what she had to say was so useful and so good and, like, so many academics, it was, uh, so clearly backed by so much research that she brought to the table. And that part really was exceptional, right?

Sarah Storm:

It was amazing. And she leads with such compassion. Like, we know because of all that research, we know that people are gonna mess up and people are gonna fall off the thing they've set out for themselves. And we know that if they take these steps, they can come back on track. And that to me felt really hopeful as a person who struggles with change.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, listen, I really loved the advice that she had about advice. This idea that if somebody's looking to you for an answer, one of the ways you can best help them is to ask them how they would answer themselves. Because then you need to formulate advice for someone else, it's often advice that you yourself can take and might not have thought of for yourself.

Sarah Storm:

I thought that was so, so great. And then it- it's not, like, give advice for advice's sake, it's empower someone to recognize that they already probably have a lot of the tools that they need to solve the problem.

Jessi Hempel:

The other thing that she did, uh, speaking of working with other people, that was really cool was, putting together ... I'm just gonna call it a board of advisors, I think she had a little bit of a different name for it, but a group of people who you can run your asks against. Like, should I do this thing? Is this in line with- with what I intend to do?

Sarah Storm:

And it's so different than going to the friends. Like, you talked about the shoe example, right? You have Heather who calls you when she wants to be talked out of buying shoes? We tend to go to people to give us the thing that we know they're inclined to give us. And what I love about Katy having this board of advisors is that because it's a group of people who are in a similar sort of life stage, there's really no chance that she's gonna be sort of given just what she wants to hear. She's gonna hear a range of opinions and probably get asked a lot of terrific questions.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The other thin gI just wanted to call attention to, is this idea of, if there's a thing that you know that you really should do but you know yourself that you do not want to do it, pairing it with something that you love to do.

Sarah Storm: Bundling.

Jessi Hempel: Bundling.

Sarah Storm: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: So, what's an example of something that you might think about bundling for yourself?

Sarah Storm:

Well, so, I am simultaneously trying to watch less television and also to exercise more. And so, I really liked her example of bundling watching something super fun with going to the gym.

Jessi Hempel: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Storm:

So, I've been thinking about doing that. I also, I've been wanting to listen to more podcasts, right? Like, the pitfall of making podcasts is that sometimes you don't get to listen out there as much as you like. And I was thinking, like, oh, I can take walks with someone else in my ear.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. Those are great examples.

Sarah Storm: What's something you're trying to do or you're thinking of doing?

Jessi Hempel:

Um, well, you know, I've been working really hard on, um, keeping lists, developing my second brain.

Sarah Storm: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

After our episode with Tiago Forte. In fact, now as you are listening to this, listeners, I am two months into that. But the simple truth of the matter is that I don't like taking the time between things to go through and organize my notes.

Sarah Storm: Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

I just find it not fun. So, I'm trying this thing where there are couple of songs I really love to listen to, they kind of inspire me every day. One of them is, um, Carol King's Beautiful. I mean, I've really listened to this song, on average, once a day, for the last 10 years. I just think there's so much to it. So, I put on that song and I do the list. And that so far seems to work really well. Or at least it has for the last three days.

Sarah Storm:

Amazing. So, keep us posted. Here's a great opportunity to let us know how that worked out for you. It's gonna be a little while between the time we're sitting in this booth and when everybody will hear this episode. Folks, come to office hours. Jessi and I and some of the core Hello Monday team members gather together with our community on the LinkedIn news page at 3:00 PM ever Wednesday afternoon. That's 3:00 PM Eastern time.

Jessi Hempel:

Every Wednesday afternoon you can find us either on the LinkedIn news page, or if that feels too complicated for you, just email us at [email protected]. We'll send you a link. And I should say, since you and I are here together, Sarah, we've got a lotta folks who come every week. We usually have around 300 folks in the chat. Um, but there are 25 of you who don't miss it. You know who you are, you're listening right now. We love hearing from you. We feel like you are hearing me and Sarah on this show right now, but we kind of feel like we are hearing you guys in our heads, and are so grateful for that.

Sarah Storm:

100%. We're lucky to have such an amazing community. I have heard several times that the Hello Monday office hours community is, like, the nicest place on the internet, and I think that's pretty accurate. Like, our community is kind and I value that so much.

Jessi Hempel:

So, come check it out. And of course, if you really wanna help the show, rate and review us on any podcast app you listen. I've been listening lately on Pocket Casts. I really like the design. Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. Sarah Storm produces our show with mixing by Joe DiGiorgi. Florencia Iriondo is head of original audio and video. Dave Pond is head of news production. Michaela Greer and Victoria Taylor are great at making change. Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the editor in chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel, you've heard today also from the illustrious Sarah Storm.

Sarah Storm: Hey, hey.

Jessi Hempel:

And we'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.

Katy Milkman:

I'm in downtown Philly, about half a mile from the University of Pennsylvania where I work.

Jessi Hempel:

Philly is basically the outer borough of New York City, right?

Katy Milkman:

It- it does feel like a more manageable New York City to me. I love New York too, I should say. Lived in New York couple of summers as a college student, and it's a great place. But, um, Philly is sort of like living in New York City for a tenth of the price.