Transcript, E128: Jonathan Fields on finding your purpose

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For more on this episode of?Hello Monday,?check out this article on my conversation with Jonathan , and leave your thoughts in the comments.

This episode of Hello Monday, "Playing the long game with Dorie Clark," was first released on September 13, 2021.

Jessi Hempel: From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. There's this poem I love by the poet, Mary Oliver. It has this great, pregnant last line. It reads, "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" I've been reading that poem a lot this year, and I think it's because of that question. I just keep coming back to it. What is the purpose? What do we do that gives our lives meaning? My guest today for this conversation is Jonathan Fields . He has a podcast and a project and a really big vision for how we all help each other to lead meaningful lives. It's called The Good Life Projec t.

Jonathan and his team, they feel like kindred spirits to the Hello Monday team. Like us they care so, so deeply about how people experience their lives. They put their show into the world, hoping to add meaning and connection and that really resonates with us. And Jonathan's been at this a lot longer. He's done a ton of research about what really drives people to do their best work and to live their best lives. This year while we were all in lockdown, Jonathan wrote a book about it. It's called Sparked: Discover Your Unique Imprint for Work that Makes You Come Alive. Today we're gonna talk about that research. He'll map out profiles that help us better understand what lights us up, and he'll help us figure out where we begin. But before we get there, I think it's important to understand what brought Jonathan to this work. So I asked him how it all began. Here's Jonathan.

Jonathan Fields: I think like for most of us, my own experience, my own stumbling, bumbling, feeling flat-lined and eventually in my case, in a very past life, in a very past career at this moment, ending up so ignoring the call to do something that was so much more aligned with who I am and the way that I really light up in the world that I ended up in emergency surgery after working a- a ton of hours for the better part of three weeks. My immune system shut down. I ended up with a pelvic abscess, a huge infection in the middle of my body that literally ate a hole through my intestines from the outside in.?

And I came out of that realizing I was a lawyer in a large firm in New York back in the day. I had the job that everyone wanted out of school. You know, like the prestige, the name, the salary. And I was dying inside. I mean, at that point, literally. And I still went back to that job after I recovered a few weeks later, but I knew things were different. I knew from that moment forward that I would be moving on. And I started to ask myself these bigger questions, you know, like what would I do that I felt would really nourish me and fill me up if I felt like I could support myself in the world doing it? Because that mattered to me.?

You know, I lived in New York, wanted to start a family, and it was important to me to be responsible in those areas of my life or at least what I considered responsible at that moment in time. So for me a lot of it was really about me reaching a point where I was so misaligned with what I was doing. I had so abandoned the things that filled me up, and the things that would allow me to take care of myself that my body literally rejected my career.

Jessi Hempel: You know, I think that a lot of people have that experience, that experience that they don't even necessarily realize. They're so numb inside that they don't realize how unhappy they are until their physical body tells them in the form of, I mean in- in your case, tragically sits them down and says, "listen, change things" in the form of a- an abscess. You know, often what I hear from people is that they know they don't feel like they're doing the right thing, but they don't even know how to begin to ask the question. Just had this conversation yesterday with a good friend. Well, what am I supposed to do? How would I even know? People always say, "Well, go to the thing that gives you purpose." Well, I don't know. How do I begin?

Jonathan Fields: ?And that is a question that has probably been consuming me for my entire adult life. What's fascinating to me is we have so much education around skills, around domain expertise. Like you can go and get a degree in accounting. You can get a PhD in physics, but we spend very little time actually asking the questions to ourselves and really deepening into self knowledge. You know, who am I? What matters to me? What gives me the feeling of being alive? What even is that? How do I deconstruct that? What are the elements of that feeling?

It's the idea of what gives me a sense of purpose, but also what about it is a sense of purpose and is that the same as or different than a broader feeling of purpose in life? So these are actually really, really, really important questions for us to move through life and feel like we're actually contributing in a way that makes us feel really good and also being nourished. We're getting something back from the way that we're investing effort in the world that is making us wake up in the morning and feel excited to do it, to feel like it matters. It genuinely matters to us and maybe to the world at large.

Jessi Hempel: I wanna really point out the way in which you're talking about the larger context of one's life and decouple that a little bit from this idea of a career. I graduated college in the nineties. I am of a generation of Americans that came of age being told if they went to college, do the thing that you love, do the thing that you love and that should be your career. I'd love to hear your perspective on whether or not we should love our careers.

Jonathan Fields: I think it depends on how you define love. If by love you mean you should be happy for every moment of it and you should wake up in the morning and it just feels incredible. No, I think there's a lot of mythology baked into that sets an aspiration that is really hard to hit and also leads to shame when you don't hit it. So now you have bundled failure with shame but if by love you mean meaning, if by love you mean like you wake up and do the thing that is profoundly meaningful to you do the thing that is in service of something you cared deeply about.?

Do the thing that allows you to lose yourself in flow, do the thing that lets you feel like you're fully expressed on every level. You know if by those things you mean love, then yeah, but I don't think we ever parse that. And I think a lot of times we just sort of step into this Pollyannaish state saying, "Do the thing you love." And this is the great phrase, right? "Do the thing you love and you'll never work a day in your life." A. what does that even mean? And B. I actually like to work.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: I like investing effort, like to me, why is work a dirty word? I like working really, really hard in the name of something that I cared deeply about. I will work all day every day. I have to pull myself away from work because what I do is so nourishing to me. So when did actually the word work become a dirty word? And it's because it's bundled with emptiness. And when you make the assumption that work has to always be on some level emptying, then yeah, it's tough. But the word work itself, there's nothing wrong with working really hard over an extended period of time to do something amazing.

Jessi Hempel: So let's go back in your own story for just a second to that moment when you realized that you were better physically for the moment but that your life needed to take a different direction. What then?

Jonathan Fields: So I also realized that I was living in New York City. I didn't want to live hand to mouth. I was at a point in my life where I sort of didn't want to just go back and live paycheck to paycheck. So I showed back up at work as soon as I could. And I stayed there for the better part of a year after that because I was also making a list of things that I thought would be pretty cool to do with my life if I could figure out how to sustain myself. And I knew that that would probably have me stepping into an entirely different world and very likely starting at the most basic level. So I knew I wanted to save a chunk of money to cover that window because I figured it would take me nine months to a year to figure it out, to figure out the next window, and I wanted it to be OK.?

So I kind of put my head down. And what's interesting about that is that even though I was showing up and doing the exact same thing that I was doing before, I experienced it really differently. Because my intent in showing up was not just to sort of like put my head down, do the grind. You know, like do what I was told and do my time until I could finally make partner or retire one day. That just wasn't my path. I experienced it differently because I had a bigger purpose in being there. I was envisioning something really big and cool and interesting. And I was looking at simply as a funding mechanism for this next big adventure. And that changed the quality of what I was doing.

Jessi Hempel: It's amazing how connecting something like that to purpose and to a greater sense really changes the experience of the day-to-day job. Which actually brings me to, so you've written this new book. It's a wonderful book for anybody who is searching at this moment, but also a really useful guide for anyone who simply wants to understand why what they're doing is working. I mean, that was me quite honestly. And the book is called Sparked and here's the thing, you start the book by telling people, forcefully, do not take this book and blow everything up. So talk a little bit about your book. What are you trying to do with it?

Jonathan Fields: I started with that little personal note asking people to just sit tight because the book is the outcome of a- a number of years work now. And having the core body of work exposed to hundreds of thousands of people. And what I've learned over the years is when people discover something that rings really true to them and they realize that the way they're showing up in their daily lives is potentially really misaligned with what they've now known is their deeper impulse for work. There's a tendency to say, "Oh, I need to just walk away from all of this right now. I can't do this for another minute longer." And that's the wrong move for many people.?

So I had put that in the beginning just to kind of say, "Take your time. Just really deepen into this. And whether that's the right decision for you or not will be revealed over time." But for most people it's not. I wrote the book largely because I kept getting asked this question, "What should I do with my life?" And when I get asked that it's primarily in the context of work. How do I find and do work that gives me this feeling of being alive? And I started to wonder ... There's a lot of academic research in the field, which is incredibly wise but also not entirely accessible and not always really easily applied in the real world. There's all sorts of spiritual writings and paths, which can be really useful too. But often require people to really buy into that and over an extended period of time.?

And I didn't see just really direct practical tools to help people understand what is the inner driver? What is the impulse for me for work that makes me feel alive? And I wondered if there were an identifiable, mappable set of impulses that was fairly universal across all people. And what I realized is that there are these really universal and fairly basic impulses, but they show up in completely unique ways. And they evolve, they may change and shift over time in many different ways. And I kept looking at nearly every job I could imagine and say, "What's under that? What's under that? What's under that?," over and over and over until it distilled down to the core impulse for effort.?

And that landed with these 10 impulses or imprints. I kind of hate the fact that it's 10 because it feels way too slick to me. It would've been nicer if it was like 12 or 13 or 9, but that's where we landed. And then what I started to realize is that built around these impulses for effort, that give you this feeling of being alive, are fairly common set of behaviors, tendencies and preferences that form larger archetypes. And I call those "sparketypes" just because it's kind of a fun way to say they're the archetypes for work that sparks you. But it also wanted to get really clear on language. You asked me earlier, what about this idea of do what you love? And like I said, it's very gray language. So when I use the phrase "come alive," the impulse for work that makes you come alive, I'm talking about the confluence of five distinct components.?

One of them is meaningfulness. Does this work give you the feeling that it matters, that you matter, that it's meaningful to you? The second is flow. Does it allow you to more easily drop into this sort of blissed-out state of flow? Where the world seems to go by, time fugues, you become hyper-generative, hyper-cognitive, hyper-creative. So much of the potential that you feel like is out there somewhere actually starts to become accessible to you. The third piece of it is what the business world might call engagement, but what I sort of distill into more natural language, excitement and energy. Do you wake up in the morning excited to do this thing, even if it's really hard? Does it energize you? The fourth component is expressed potential. Are you able to do this thing? Do you feel like it is allowing all of you to be brought to the task and you're not hiding or stifling anything? And the fifth element is purpose, and similar to what I shared earlier, I'm talking about purpose on two levels. Do you feel like you're working towards something identifiable that is meaningful to you? But more broadly, do you feel like you have a general sense of purpose in life?

Jessi Hempel: Jonathan, can I ask you, how would you articulate the difference between that first element, which I think you called meaning and purpose.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: Are they twins?

Jonathan Fields: I actually look at one as the verb and one as the noun. The purpose is the movement towards. Meaning is the state. So purpose is about seeking. It is about like I'm here and this is there and that's where I want to go. And the reason that you want to go there is because for some reason that nobody else may understand it's meaningful to you to be at that other place, to work towards something. It gives you the feeling of meaningfulness. So one is more of the verb. It's the action. It's the directionality. And one is the feeling that's generated in the pursuit of this thing.

Jessi Hempel: So I'll say I've read the 10 categories that you have laid out. And it was very clear even before I did any of your diagnostics that are, um, available and really fun to do, I was really clear what I was. But what I didn't really understand, I was a Maker, which isn't a surprise to anybody with whom I share time on this show because I make the podcast and I'm writing a book. And what do I do? I work by myself in a room to make things. I love doing that, or even better, I work with teams of people to make things.

But your strategy for helping us to decode where we might find a sense that we're in the right place, it's more nuanced than that. You also introduced this idea. You call it a "shadow version" of our Sparketypes. I think of it as like, you know, a- a second aspect of myself that I really need to understand if I'm gonna figure out how to channel that first aspect in the right way.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: And I'll tell you Jon, I misfired on that one. I was like, "Oh, I'm a maker who likes to teach people things." Turns out Jonathan, I'm not. I'm not a maker who likes to teach people things. I'm a maker who loves to learn things myself. So I'm a "maven," that's the name that you give to this category. And thinking about that slight nuance actually changes the way that I think about directing what I'd like to spend my time doing.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I love that. You know, especially in the context of the maker and the maven. So the maven is really interesting. The fundamental impulse for the maven is knowledge acquisition. You wake up in the morning and you're fascinated. It could be by a specific topic or just broadly, you're just broadly curious. It's all about learning. The challenge with that is it's not the easiest thing in the world to turn that into a job.

Jessi Hempel: Nope.

Jonathan Fields: Because, you know, who's gonna pay you to just sit there and go down a rabbit hole on Google or devour books or listen to every podcast on the planet or like be encyclopedic in one domain? You know, there's a tremendous amount of value that gets unlocked when that impulse is then partnered even with this secondary impulse that you have or with a group of other people on a team where they sort of take that value and they say, "OK, you're the domain expert on the team, and that we're gonna like apply everything that you've learned."?

But for you, where like you have this maker side, that then can create things that the world interacts with that create value, and that becomes the gateway to earning a living if in fact that's meaningful to you. But there's this other more nuanced thing that can sometimes happen with the maker and the maven. So the "Primary" is what I would call your strongest impulse. The Shadow is what I would call either your runner up, but very often there's a more nuanced relationship. It's the work you do in order to do the work of your primary better.?

So your maker could in fact be not only the way that you create value, which allows you to earn a living, it could also be a really effective funding mechanism for your maven's impulse to just go deep into a whole lot of things. And the process of creation can for you actually serve a dual process as a process of learning and discovery. So it actually is serving that maven's impulse in a number of different ways.

Jessi Hempel: We're gonna take a quick break here. We'll be back in just a moment with more on finding purpose with Jonathan Fields.

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And we're back. Jonathan's framework for how we see our purpose has three components. There's our Primary and our Shadow, which we've discussed, but there's also this other piece of the puzzle. It's a bet that can sometimes work against us. Jonathan calls it our "anti-spark."

Jonathan Fields: Now the anti-sparketype is kinda the- the work that tends to empty you out the fastest, requires the most effort to do. And when you do it, and sometimes we just have to do it because it's part of our work, but it requires the most recovery. Even if objectively from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem all that hard to other people, there's something about this work that just leaves you more empty than you were before. Sometimes we still have to do it though.?

If it's just part of your job description, well then, that's kind of the way it is until you have a chance to either delegate it out or become so skilled or competent at it that at least the feeling that you get of being accomplished helps to offset a little bit of the feeling of depletion that you get from simply investing in it. So it gets a little bit better, but it will never be the thing where when you do it, it just gives you that incredibly feeling of aliveness that your primary or your shadow give you. So what was yours, I'm curious?

Jessi Hempel: Well, I'm just gonna guess that mine is the same for most people, um, and you categorize it as Essentialist. I think that, um, people who know me well would categorize it as, um, extremely disorganized and not interested in adhering to systems.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, that is one of the top two. Interestingly from what we're seeing, and again, we don't have a global dataset, but it's pretty big. It's over 500,000 people right now, and within that dataset the Performer is actually showing up as the single most prevalent anti-Sparketype.

Jessi Hempel: Really?

Jonathan Fields: And the impulse of the Performer, yeah, is to enliven, energize and animate an experience, interaction or moment. A lot of times we think of that in the context of performing arts. But in fact, it's a fantastic impulse to have in a business meeting, in a boardroom, in a sales conversation, in all these different domains. That tends to be the heaviest lift for the greatest number of people is what we're seeing in the data so far.

Jessi Hempel: Wow.

Jonathan Fields: And the Essentialist is a runner up to that. My anti-Sparketype is the Essentialist. If you tell me how to create systems, processes, spreadsheets, I just wanna curl up in a corner and cry. (laughing) You know, which is what the person who does it ... The producer for our podcast is an Essentialist because she loves building out our editorial calendar and managing this big complex process. And I'm so happy and she's happy, so you can find these people who have that same role and they really are driven by it and sort of like bring- bring them into your orbit.

Jessi Hempel: The wonderful thing about the way that you see this is that there's so much room for so many different types of people to flourish and to find roles that animate them and inspire them. And I think about our Hello Monday listeners and people who may be in a position now where they're not happy in their job, and they're sitting first with the question, is this the right place for me? How can your tools help somebody to answer that question?

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, it's such a great question. And I think so many of us start with is this the right job for me? Is it the right company for me? Is it the right industry for me? Those all matter, but the way that you answer those questions is not by looking at other jobs, other industries or other companies. It's by actually going inward first. So we tend to first start exploring outwardly, our circumstances and all the other choices, rather than start inside and ask what is the deeper impulse for me for work that gives me this feeling that I so yearn to feel? What will allow me to step into something else or to re-imagine what I'm doing so that I'm no longer discontent every day??

When I show up, I no longer feel empty or devoid of purpose. And rather than looking outward and trying to find a job or a change, you know, a different team in the company or whatever it may be, look inward first, do the work. Whether it's through the Sparketypes in the assessment or any number of other amazing tools that just contribute to your body of wisdom about who you are and what you need to have the feeling you so deeply want to feel when you show up at work every day. Do that work first, before you start looking at all the sort of surface level jobs, titles, roles, companies, industries, organizations.?

Because once you understand the deeper impulse, it frees you to no longer be constrained by all those other things. Because you can find the opportunity to express this impulse in so many places you never imagined possible. So there's a- a tremendous amount of freedom when you're leading from a place of deeper self knowledge, rather than just running experiments and saying, "Oh, this job seems different, going over there." And then 18 months later, you find yourself in a different office, new paint on the wall, a new team, a new manager, a new organization and industry, feeling the exact same way and never understanding why it's making you feel that way. So you just keep trying these different things, and maybe over 20, 30, 40 years you'll start to figure out the deeper impulse, but why not actually do that work first and then spend those 20, 30, 40 years living into it?

Jessi Hempel: I wanna really punctuate that a second, Jonathan, because I think that's such a deep truth to your work. Until we do the work to look deeply inside ourselves, no matter where we move, we will always be occupying the same life. We will be recreating the same experiences. I believe that very deeply. You can change industries, you can change jobs, but you will see the world through the same eyes. I also- I also just wanna explore the degree to which we optimize for perfect, in our careers. Is there a perfect for anyone out there?

Jonathan Fields: OK so, yes and no. It always gets back to how you define that word. Perfect is everything is as it should be. There is momentary perfection. There are fleeting glimpses of it. This is the same answer for happiness. Happiness is a snapshot, meaning is a movie. So is there a perfect moment? Sure. Like is there that moment where you've been working really, really hard on something for five years, and it comes to fruition and somehow magically every system works right? Every person involved in the effort is doing exactly what it needs to do, and the outcome is beyond what you dreamed mattered? Is that moment, potentially as you would describe it, perfect? Sure, but is the five years leading up to that??

Could there have been all sorts of emotional toil and struggle and misalignment and conflict? One-hundred percent, and when you wake up the next morning, does that mean that like everything is perfect now? Like I- I finally reached a point of perfect in life, and it's just gonna sustain? No. So I think like to me, the aspiration is never perfect. To me my aspiration is, can I show up in life and spend the greatest amount of time possible invested in activities and relationships that give me this feeling? Knowing that if I spend as much time as I can in that state, I will do the best work that I can do. And whatever happens from that point forward is going to be what it needs to be. To me, that is my perfect.

Jessi Hempel: Well, coming back to your experience, you signed a contract to write this book just as the world shut down in March of 2020. What is your own personal experience of the pandemic been like?

Jonathan Fields: It's been everything, everything. Everything I feared, everything I hoped for, everything I imagined and nothing I could've seen coming. I started into 2020 living in New York City, married with a- a daughter who was then away in her freshman year of college, thinking like everyone else, we're gonna just keep doing really cool, fun things. And then February and then March hit in New York City, which was a terrifying, terrifying place to be in New York, March 2020. Our daughter got sent home as the school shut down. In this really, really weird twist, I ended up with my agent bringing this book to publishers. There's a lot of immediate interest. This happens the second week of March.

So on a Monday, we're hugging "hello." On a Tuesday, we're shaking hands. On a Wednesday, we're elbow bumping. By Friday, we're all bowing uncomfortably from across the room as we're meeting people. Incredibly blessed in a lot of ways and that the book was sold, um, the following week. And I just put my head down and started writing. My Sparketype is the- the Maker, and it's very, very strongly differentiated and expressed in me. I wake up in the morning and I'm just like, what can I create? And I've been that way for as long as I can remember. So I had already, you know, producing a podcast and doing all these other things. And now I had this book, and then I have a book that I realized over time where I'm writing a book about possibility at a time where I don't know if that word will exist in people's lives on any given day.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: But I hope that it will. And I'm writing, believing that we will at some point emerge from this window. And when we do, having been through the early part of everything in New York City last year and being rocked to the core and reevaluate a lot of things, I really started to feel like people on mass would be reevaluating the way that they were stepping into their lives, their work, their relationships, where they're living, literally every major question in their lives. And I began to feel like I wanted to write to that moment, to that big, existential question where when we step into a place of deep questioning and potential reimagining and reinvention. I think at LinkedIn, you call it reshuffling, right?

Jessi Hempel: (laughs) We like that word a lot.

Jonathan Fields: Um, yeah. That this would potentially serve as a tool to A. know yourself better and B. make better decisions and C. maybe allow you to step back into a place of personal possibility.

Jessi Hempel: That last piece, personal possibility. It's what I most hope for all of Hello Monday’s listeners and for myself. And yet as we move into the fall and our listeners are hearing us in September, the world is hard to parse, right? It feels more uncertain even than it did in the first days of the pandemic when it just felt like we were having a weird blip and somehow normal would come back. And so the trick is to figure out, OK well, how do we create personal possibility against the background of uncertainty?

Jonathan Fields: It's interesting, you use the word normal. Certain things have become normal. One of the things that's become normalized that I haven't heard a lot of conversation about is public, existential questioning. You know, people would look at that, oh well, that's the domain of your midlife crisis. You haven't quite earned it yet.

Jessi Hempel: Yep.

Jonathan Fields: But you'll get there. And then you can blow everything up and start over, you know, when the kids are off at college or you just decide to make a different decision about your life. What has been normalized now is that everyone is asking the big questions. That everybody is saying is what got me here gonna get me there? Is the feeling that I've had for the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years of my life and my working life, is that the same feeling that I want to have for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years? And people instead of just kind of hiding that because they're really concerned about being judged for really deepening into that question, especially if you- you're like we're doing something where people from the outside in perceived it as being like pretty good and pretty solid and desirable.

You didn't talk about that. You didn't think about it, you just pushed it to the side. Now we're all in that question together. Now everyone is asking that question and everyone is having the conversation in a very public way. It's almost like you're the outlier if you're not investigating these questions. That normalization allows you to deepen into it on a level that I don't think we've seen in generations. That it- it allows you to share your questions with people around you. It allows you to seek help in trying to figure out and answer those questions in a way where you're not concerned about the social context, about being judged.

And that normalization, I think is a really good thing because if it throws tens of millions of people into a place of exploring who they are and what they're here to do, and being public about it and sharing it, and having conversation and discourse around it, and feeling supported and not judged for simply wanting to have that conversation, then I- I can only imagine what sense of agency and joy and meaning and contribution might emerge from that process of self inquiry and then shared culture-wide self inquiry.

Jessi Hempel: That was Jonathan Fields. If you enjoyed the episode, I hope you'll check out his show. It's called The Good Life Project, and recently I got to go on it. We talked about my experience of work and how I find meaning in it, myself. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. So here at Hello Monday, we love a little homework, and I've got some for you this week. Sometime between now and 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, 3:00 p.m. ET, I want you to go to sparketype.com and take the assessment and give yourself a little time. It'll take, I don't know, closer to 10 minutes than five. Let it breathe. It's free, and I think you'll find it fun. Then bring the information you pick up to Office Hours.?

We'll talk about what we're learning about ourselves, and Sarah, Michaela and I will share our own assessments with you. (chuckles) I bet you can probably guess what each are as you go through the assessment yourself. We'll go live like we always do at 3:00 p.m. ET on Wednesday. To join the conversation, meet us on the LinkedIn News page or send us an email at [email protected]. We'll send you the link. As always please rate and review us, it really helps us out. And you might even find your review getting read on the show, like today. Hey Sarah.

Sarah Storm: Hey Jessi.

Jessi Hempel: Who are we hearing from?

Sarah Storm: Ethan Fierce. Ethan called us "chill" and said, "This is a really good show, it's humane and smart. It's been a wonderful help through the pandemic."

Jessi Hempel: Ethan, thank you so much for that review. If you're listening right now, drop me a line at [email protected] and let's chat. We can talk about LinkedIn, how to use it better. We can talk about the show, Hello Monday. Any way I can be helpful to you. Now, Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show is produced by Sarah Storm with help from Taisha Henry. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is head of original audio and video. Dave Pond is our technical director. Michaela Greer, Victoria Taylor and Gianna Prudente support us in our purpose. Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel, have a great week. We're back next Monday, thanks for listening.

Jonathan Fields: Whatever the highest quality is it can do, so.

Sarah Storm: What you're seeing is how much trust we put in the digital recordings. (laughter)

Jonathan Fields: Oh God, the world we live in.