Transcript, E115: The Great Resignation

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This episode of Hello Monday, "The Great Resignation," was first released on June 21, 2021.

Jessi Hempel: From the News team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. Not long ago, I got a bummer of an email from one of my favorite colleagues, Sara Weber. Sara's in the Germany office, and the email said she was leaving, quitting. I was shocked because, quite frankly, Sara's doing really well here. She just got promoted. Things are going great. So I called her up.

Sara Weber: So many people are so surprised, and I was surprised by how surprised everybody was, basically.

Jessi Hempel: Well, I have to tell you, Sara, you've crushed it. So why, why leave?

Sara Weber: I mean, I was just, I was just done. Like, it was, it was five years. I had achieved the things I really wanted to achieve, built a great team, "crushed it," as you said, although I would not use those words to describe myself. And I think the pandemic is just giving not just me, but a lot of people like lots of time to think about how do we want to work? How, what do we actually want to achieve in our lives? And I was just like, "Yeah, this chapter is done." And it feels like it's time, you know?

Jessi Hempel: What I think is true for a lot of people is maybe for a year we've worked just so hard at jobs that we might love, but without any ability to see up and out and think about the future. We've been so focused on the present…?

Sara Weber: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: ...and then, collectively, we can all breathe a little bit again, right? We feel kind of safe, maybe, for the first time. Actually physically safe and maybe, maybe economically safe, as you describe yourself. And we don't have a vision for the future. And we're working so hard in the moment that it feels to a lot of us like we can't get that vision for our future without just stepping entirely out. And I'm wondering if that resonates for you?

Sara Weber: That, that resonates a lot. And I think, for us, it's also, like we're journalists, we're always in the news cycle. Our job is literally to not step back because when we step back, we miss something. And I think that's also the case for a lot of other people working in other jobs. They were homeschooling their kids or living with relatives, taking care of them. Like there were so many things going on for so many people, that just getting a clearer picture of what's next and what that world will even look like, I think, is really hard to get, um, without somehow trying to step out of it, take a breath, and figure things out.

Jessi Hempel: So many people are doing what Sara's doing right now. There's even a name for this trend. People are calling it "the great resignation." And let's be clear that there's so much privilege involved in this. I mean, there are a lot of burnt-out, exhausted people who can't leave their jobs because they depend on the paychecks. But many people right now are willing to take a chance, even if it feels risky because the pandemic has just reshaped our thoughts on risk.?

So recently on LinkedIn I put a call out to you all, Hello Monday's listeners. I wanted to see who planned to leave their job this year, and so many people got in touch. More than 100. The stories all had very similar themes. So this week I want to share a few with you. And then I'm going to talk to an expert, someone who can tell us a little bit about what's going on here and what it might mean for us.

First there are people like Shahina Kasak. She's in London. She's worked in HR for a very long time. And she's had a side hustle, a passion. This spring, she finally quit her job and her jewelry business launches next month.

Shahina Kasak: I was feeling, I would say, nervous when I decided to do it, but as the months went on and we spent more and more time, should I say, locked up, you know, um, on our, chained to our desks, etc., it gave me the confidence that it was absolutely the right thing for me to do. I feel the pandemic made me realize that life is definitely too short, so it made me go out and, and make that decision.

Jessi Hempel: This move inspired in Shahina something that, really, she hadn't expected.

Shahina Kasak: I think what has surprised me the most about leaving is the amount of kind of personal courage that I guess I thought I didn't have that I, that I suddenly discovered for myself, which has been fantastic when setting up my business. The network, the support, um, that's around you, the encouragement that you get, the fact that there's lots of people that have, have done it and it's not a scary thing at all. There's a whole network out there that, um, will help you, but more importantly, there's lots of people that have done it. You're not the first.

Jessi Hempel: A lot more of you left jobs without knowing really anything about your future plans, like Brittney Van Matre in Portland, Oregon. Brittney's worked at Nike for 11 years. She was the Director of Workplace Strategy and Operations, as in COVID was very intense for her.

Brittney Van Matre: The last, the last, uh, year and a half that I've actually been in this role, it's been pretty, pretty insane just to navigate closing a, a corporate headquarters of 17,000 people and other key city headquarter locations, and then allowing people to come back with social distancing, yet maintaining all the COVID-19 protocols. And yeah, it's been a journey.

Jessi Hempel: Brittney liked Nike. She even loved Nike, but COVID gave her this time and space to think about what she did every day and what she wanted from her job.

Brittney Van Matre: The pandemic really impacted my decision to quit. I think a lot of the reason why I was at Nike for the amount of time that I have been is because of the company and the, the, the company of the people that I was with. Just being around younger, ambitious, you know, cool people was, was infectious.?

However, the work that I was doing was not fulfilling, and there was not a lot of opportunity to be innovative, to be creative, to work on things that were really purposeful, really meaningful for me and for others. And that for me was a big deal because it just is out of alignment with who I am.

Jessi Hempel: That feeling Brittney is talking about, well, it came up a lot. People said over and over, "I just felt done." Often it didn't have a lot to do with their employers either. It was more of an internal shift, something that they'd just been through, that we've, that we've all just been through. It's changed what we want from our work. June Mustari just resigned from her job as an IT manager outside Chicago.

June Mustari: My personal conviction of, of being myself in authenticity has been really strengthened by what we just went through in the world. If my skills as a professional are our pencils, then, um, I believe the pandemic has acted as a really good pencil sharpener. I've always been a tech professional who builds relationships and partnerships. I'm a problem solver. I, I've always, um, built bridges between IT and the rest of the business. Um, but I have less need now to prove myself to others and, and more of a need to prove technology to others.

Jessi Hempel: Like so many of you who got in touch, June quit without knowing exactly what was coming next. So, right now she's taking a little bit to figure it out.

June Mustari: For some reason I just have some type of superhuman faith that I'll end up where I'm supposed to land. And am I worried about the financial impact of, of my transition? Sure. Um, I'm a wife and I'm a mom and I'm a primary earner. But do I have faith that this is worth it? Absolutely. I don't see regret in my future. I see job satisfaction and growth.

Jessi Hempel: When we get back, we'll check in with an expert to get some context on this trend and some advice.?

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Anthony Klotz is a management professor at Texas A&M University. He studies resignations, and I think he's actually the guy who coined the term "The Great Resignation."

Anthony Klotz: I'm not sure where the term came from in my mind, but the reason that I came to the conclusion that we were looking at a lot of resignations on the near-term horizon was sort of observing several trends coming together. Um, one would be looking over the past year. There's been a lot of uncertainty. And we know that when there's uncertainty, people tend, tend to stay put.?

And so, when we looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers over the last year, there were 6 million less resignations in 2020 than there were the prior year. So, a number of people were staying put. And as the economy and pandemic hopefully subside and improve, we expected those individuals to potentially lose, leave their jobs more.

Jessi Hempel: Is that like, what degree of the total is that? Is that like 10% of the workforce that didn't move or..?

Anthony Klotz: Yeah, it's probably a little bit smaller than that. I don't know the exact percentage, um, but there's always a lot of voluntary turnover. And so, even though 6 million seems like a big number, um, on an average year, there's probably, I would guess, 50 or 60. So around 10% is probably right. 50, 60 million.?

And so, observing that people probably stayed put and were ready to move, that was one of the trends that I was observing. At the same time, I was talking to a number of individuals who, over the past year, had had these realizations that they wanted to do something different with their lives. So, the pandemic brought us face to face in a lot of cases with some of our own mortality. And when we have those big, existential thoughts, often we think about what do we want to do with our lives, and how we spent it before the pandemic may not be how we want to spend our time after the pandemic. And so, a number of individuals had the time to start thinking about, "Do I wanna pursue an entrepreneurial venture?" "Do I wanna go back to school?" "Would I like to stay home with my family?" At the same time, the pandemic over the last year was only the second time in the last 35 years that our collective level of debt has gone down. And so, individuals were saving money, putting themselves in a position where they could enact their plans to switch careers or to make a life pivot if they want to.?

And then, of course, the big one is working from home. And many of us don't want to go back in the office. And so, one of the fundamental needs we have as human beings is the need for autonomy, the need for personal freedom. And in most cases, working remotely gives us more autonomy to structure our day, to structure our lives than working in the office does. And so, a lot of us were granted this newfound autonomy, and we don't want to give it up. And so, those trends, those forces coming together led me to conclude that we're on the cusp of this great resignation.

Jessi Hempel: Well, the piece that I, that isn't surprising when you lay it out that way but that gave me pause is that idea that, more people that I might expect saved a lot of money last year. They didn't have anything to spend it on, frankly, and it enables them to do things they might not have been able to do otherwise, right?

Anthony Klotz: Exactly. And so, I think the savings came from a couple of places. Of course, for some, the stimulus checks helped, but in a lot of ways, we were forced to simplify our lives and ask ourselves, "Are the things that I'm spending my money and time on before the pandemic worth the money that I was spending?" And that could be anything from daycare to going out with, uh, friends every night and socializing, um, to subscriptions. And so, I think for a lot of us it was a chance to say, "This isn't bringing me the value that I sort of assumed it was. And when I look at it, do I really need this in my life?" The answer is no. And so, simplifying goes along with that.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. That was my experience as well. There were a lot of things that we just... let go. And then there were things like daycare that we realized were - I'm the parent of two very small children - even more important than we thought…?

Anthony Klotz: (laughing)

Jessi Hempel: ...We would pay quadruple for it if we had to.

Anthony Klotz: Yeah. That, that's exactly it, and it distills it down and you really get to see what's important. So, so yeah. So for daycare providers listening, maybe you can increase your rates.

Jessi Hempel: (laughing) Well, so, I want to talk a little bit about how we, if we're thinking about making the leap, um, particularly, like, a lot of our listeners who are making this leap, they don't know what's coming next. Some of them might want a new job in their field eventually. Some of them are trying to dream up a new field if they're trying to pursue their passions. Some of this stuff will work, some of it won't. So do you have any advice for people who are on the cusp of resigning?

Anthony Klotz: Yes. I think that's a great question because the future is uncertain. And so, for organizations and for employees considering what to do next, there isn't a clear right answer. And so, for individuals considering resigning, I think there's a few things you should do. First, think clearly about the reasons that you're resigning and make sure that your organization won't actually accommodate those things because companies are trying to figure out this right now as well.?

And so, you may say, "I don't want to work 40 hours a week anymore. I'd like to work 20 hours a week or 25 hours a week," which was what I'm hearing from lots of individuals. Have you asked your organization if they could accommodate that? Or is there somebody else working in your organization that you could combine jobs with them, and you both work 20 hours a week? If you would like a one-month sabbatical each year. Just a month where you take a month off. You may as well ask for it. If you like your job and you like your coworkers, instead of just leaving, see if there's a way, uh, that you can make that arrangement.?

For individuals who, who don't want to go back to the office or who are feeling anxiety around it, I would also encourage you to perhaps try it out. Uh, so we tend to not be very good at predicting how we'll feel in the future, and a lot of us have really nicely adjusted to working from home. I know there's been problems, but a lot of us really enjoy it. And the thought of just getting back into commute and going back into the office is not a pleasant one. But you may find that actually the commute isn't as bad as you remember, that it's nice to get out of the house a bit and see your coworkers. And so, you, you may consider, um, and this would be just sort of an evidence-based approach, running a little experiment where you go back in the office, and actually see if how you think you, you'll feel is how you actually feel.?

And, and the final point that I'll make is that if, if you've decided to resign, you should do it in as gracious a way as possible. I know this goes without saying, but you, you should take some time perhaps to think about how disruptive turnover is to the organization, and say, "Is there any way I can minimize the negative impact of me leaving?" So give a longer notice period, volunteer to train your replacement, or something like that. And the reason that it's important to leave while expressing gratitude and in a gracious manner is because of the uncertainty in the future. Even before the pandemic, we were seeing this rise in boomerang employees. So employees who leave an organization, and come back six months, two years, five years later, which is why organizations now have these great alumni programs because they see it as a source of potential talent. And you never know that your organization that is not doing remote work now may decide to in a year. In which case, you may say, "I'd like to go back and work at that organization," to make sure you leave on the best note possible to open that door.

Jessi Hempel: I think what you're saying makes so much sense. And it reminds me of the earliest days of the pandemic, when we all had to make these changes not because we wanted to, but because they were forced on us, and we had to make them quickly.?

I remember running an experiment like you describe on myself and realizing, "Okay, any huge change it turns out I can make," and I need one week to be all in my head about how it's impossible, one week to suffer through it, and then the third week I'm going to wake up, and be like, "Oh, this is how life works now." Right?

Anthony Klotz: Yup. I, I believe it's a cycle of adjustment that we all navigate differently, but for sure.

Jessi Hempel: And so, it does make sense that, before we rush to make a proactive change, we at least see if what's coming ahead of us is as bad as we're imagining it because, frankly, all change is uncomfortable, right?

Anthony Klotz: Right. The corollary that's in my mind is the culture shock cycle that you go through when you expatriate to another country or spend a lot of time in a very different culture than your own. Um, sometimes it's exciting when you get there, but things start to get on your nerves. And at some point, you were like, "I don't want to be here anymore. I want to go back home where it's comfortable." Um, and the idea is to push through that discomfort, and eventually you'll reach an adjustment phase where you've changed sort of your processes and routines to adjust to the situation. And so, so I think, at the beginning of the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic, we're going through this cycle of adjustment, and all of us navigate it differently. And at, at the end, expatriate assignments fail a lot of the time because people say, "I can't adjust." And for a lot of us, that's okay. And for a lot of individuals, working from home hasn't worked for them, and are looking forward to going back to the office. And that makes sense as well.

Jessi Hempel: This is such a confusing time because it really is a time of very amorphous rules. And you may like the rules and you may not like the rules, but there's this security in knowing what they are. But now, when it comes to work, who knows?

Anthony Klotz: There's a lack of structure. Um, so there, there used to be a default work arrangement, I feel like, before the pandemic. Even though people were doing digital nomadism and remote work and these different sorts of things, that was really small. And so, when you would go to a career fair, you knew most of these jobs were going to fit a certain structure. Um, that's, that's a little bit out the window now. And there isn't a necessarily, a default structure for work in a lot of professions. And so, that's confusing for organizations, which makes it more confusing for the employees as well.

Jessi Hempel: That was Anthony Klotz, a management professor at Texas A&M University. And thanks to everyone who sent me voice memos for this show.?

You know, if you're wondering why you only heard from women in this episode, it's worth noting that every single voice memo was sent in by a woman. So to Emanette who is learning to cook in Oaxaca, to Reena who's enjoying a sabbatical in Maryland, we see you and we hear you. Good luck. And if you're listening and you're jumping into the great unknown right now, please keep us posted here at Hello Monday, let us know how it's going.?

This week on office hours, my colleague Andrew Seamen will join Hello Monday contributor Michaela Greer. They'll be taking your questions on how to know when it's your time to leave your job. So bring those questions and those ideas. They'll go live, as usual, Wednesday afternoon at 3:00 PM Eastern on the LinkedIn News page. You can always find us by following LinkedIn News or emailing [email protected] for the link.?

If you like the show, and we hope you do, please take a moment right now to rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.?

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show is produced by Sarah Storm. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is head of original audio and video. Dave Pond is our technical director. Michaela Greer, Samantha Roberson, Carrington York, and Victoria Taylor are sticking with the team for now. Our music was composed just for us by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the Editor-in-chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel. Our show's back next Monday. Thanks for listening.?

Jessi Hempel: Well, Sara, I'm gonna miss you a ton. It has been such...

Sara Weber: I'm gonna miss all of you.

Jessi Hempel: ...It's been such a pleasure to work with you. And as you go forth, I'm gonna hope secretly in my heart, whether it's at LinkedIn or somewhere else, we get to work together again in the future.?

Sara Weber: I mean, that would definitely be the best-case scenario coming all of that, coming out of all of this.