Top Job Search and Career Success Tips with Carla Harris

摩根士丹利 's Carla Harris recently joined an exclusive event for LinkedIn Premium subscribers, offering her best job search and career advice. She and LinkedIn News Editor Andrew Seaman discussed networking, salary negotiation and so much more.

A portion of their conversation is being included as a bonus episode of Get Hired with Andrew Seaman. A transcript of a podcast version of the conversation is below. You can also listen to the episode on your favorite podcast platform by clicking here.

TRANSCRIPT: Top Job Search and Career Success Tips with Carla Harris

Andrew Seaman: Hey everyone, it's Andrew. A few weeks ago I sat down with Morgan Stanley's Carla Harris to talk about all things job searching and career development. Our conversation was part of LinkedIn's new live event series that's exclusively for premium members. But Carla shared so much incredible wisdom that I thought you should hear it. So today I'm sharing a portion of that conversation with you. That's coming up right after the short break.?

Andrew: From LinkedIn News, this has Get Hired a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's editor-at-large for jobs and career development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.

Carla Harris is not only a senior client advisor at Morgan Stanley and a member of several large corporate boards and foundations, she's also an author, motivational speaker, and a recording artist with a thriving musical career. She truly does it all. In this conversation, I got Carla's advice on everything from tackling stigmas in the job search process to making a big ask of your network and so much more. Here's Carla. Thank you so much for joining us.

Carla Harris: Well, thank you for having me, Andrew.

Andrew: Of course. Well, the first thing I want to talk about is how to set yourself up for new opportunities in today's job market because obviously it's a little rough out there. For people who are job searching right now or maybe they want to find a new opportunity, what would be your advice to them as they're sort of surveying the landscape?

Carla: Sure. So first of all, think about what it is you really want to do and don't get stuck in what you've already done. And most people make the mistake, Andrew, of looking for something that's similar to what they've done instead of thinking about the things that they are, number one, really good at, number two, the things that they really want to learn, and number three, the things that they think might be fun. So now once you think about those three categories, that in itself will expand your landscape with respect to how you want to go through things. The next thing to do is to think about who do you know that are already doing some of those things that you might be interested in? Because your network is so important. And if you're going to meet with your network, tell them why you're interested in what you're interested in doing, why you might want to work for their company and why you think you might be good there. So when they get ready to introduce you verbally, they will repeat the same narrative.

And then the last thing I'm going to say is be creative. If you think you want to get a job in your fashion retail, think about beauty, think about apparel, you might also want to think about actually working at retail in one of the stores because so many of those stores will promote people that are at the door today, they will be in the executive suite tomorrow.

Andrew: And also I think there are roles now that exist that did exist even two years ago.

Carla: Absolutely.

Andrew: So if you are creative, you can sort of land in that niche and really become valuable.

Carla: No question about it.

Andrew: And we have a member question that I want to get to, and this is from Joel Fleming in Chicago. Any advice for people who are thinking of pivoting into a different area?

Carla: So Joel, the first thing you should do is remember that in order to pivot into a new space, you need to understand what the key success factors are. And now you look at what your skills are and the experience that you've had and be able to make a case that you can deliver on those key success factors. When you're sitting in front of someone, if they already see that you don't have the experience, now you need to say, "But I understand for this seat, in order to be successful, you need to do A, B and C, so let me tell you how my previous experience relates to that and why I have a lot of confidence that I can deliver on that," Because that's what they care about, does she know or he know what it takes to be successful? Then they're going to start to say, "Okay, I'm listening, I'm listening."

Andrew: And that confidence is so key to sort of selling yourself.

Carla: Absolutely.

Andrew: We have another question here, and it's from Sade in San Francisco. I left my last job due to a toxic leadership. How do you explain why you left your last company?

Carla: Well, Sade, the thing that you should say to yourself is how do I reposition this and say, "I love the company, I love the opportunity. But there were a lot of different changes that were going on at that time, and I was looking for A, B and C." Right? Because now you want to focus on the things that you want to get next and how you want to leverage the experience that you have now. "And I didn't necessarily see an opportunity over the next couple of years with my ability to do this." I wouldn't talk about the toxic leader because you don't know who that person knows, and that person may know that person, and in fact, they might've already done some homework on you by talking to that person. So be very careful and focus more on the things that you want to get in your career.

Andrew: And it's almost like, "Listen, I'm looking ahead and I left my last company because I'm looking for a culture that really embraces their workers and really wants to see them succeed."

Carla: And I would say, Andrew, you don't even really have to talk about the culture, right? Because you do... The answer I gave was an honest answer. You want these other things in your career. Now what you're not saying is that you didn't think you could get those things in that organization with that person in the way, but it still doesn't erase the fact that you want these things. So that's why I'm saying focus on what you want and you're saying I wasn't sure that I'd be able to get it over the next couple of years in my career.

Andrew: And then we have a question here from Nike in Racine, Wisconsin. How do you get hires to even look at your resume when you've been laid off three times in two years and your tenure looks like you are a job hopper?

Carla: Well, interestingly enough, in the environment that we're in now, people don't focus so much on the length of time in a space. I would argue 20 years ago that would've been a big deal, but now employers sort of think about this job market as more opportunistic, and they recognize again that new opportunities are being born every day so you just need to have a good narrative with respect to what's happened. And even if you were laid off, now I'm going to challenge you to think a little bit about what might've happened. Did you fail to build relationships? Were you operating and doing a good job, but not offering that which was valued? Did you really know what the key success factors were in that role? Or maybe the companies weren't doing well and unfortunately your timing was bad.

But you want to think about those things because you want to have a narrative that you can deliver in the next conversation because somebody's going to look at that and say, "Oh, wow, you moved around a lot in the last six or seven years. Talk to me about what happened." And you want to tight narrative as to what you think happened over that period of time.

Andrew: And also I think, especially in your resume, once you put those accomplishments on there, if you say, "Hey, listen, I may have had a short tenure, but look at what I did."

Carla: I like it.

Andrew: And then you could say, "It doesn't matter that I was only there six months. I still did what I needed to do."

Carla: I delivered.

Andrew: Yes.

Carla: Yes, sir.

Andrew: And then another question here we have from Dan in Toronto, a lot of Torontians out there. What's the right level of staying engaged with a potential new opportunity without seeming desperate or annoying?

Carla: Oh, I love this question. I am a big fan of every six or seven weeks, to drop a quick line, right? Say, "I am assuming that all is still as it was last time we spoke, but I just want you to know I continue to be very interested in joining the team," And give them one or two reasons why. So just remind them. Because I have to say, at the end of the day, perseverance plays off. I can't tell you, and I was a big recruiter over the course of my career, I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to a candidate who we didn't hire the first time, now we have a need, but because they kept in touch and would drop an email here or there, I'd say, "Hey, let's have a conversation. Why don't you come in?" And they got hired every single time.

Andrew: And you mentioned networking earlier, and I think a lot of people sometimes they get worried about letting people know that, "Hey, I'm job searching," Or, "I want to move on in my career." What is your advice for people who are fearful of reaching out?

Carla: This is what you say, and here's the script. "Hey Andrew, I'm loving what I'm doing right now and I've learned A, B, C and D in the eight years that I've been here, but it's a big world out there so I'm also thinking about how I might leverage this going forward. What would you think, based on these skills, that I should be thinking about or what have you seen out there?" You said nothing about, "I'm ready to quit my job. I hate it." You're saying, "I'm thinking about how I grow." But that's how you open up the conversation to get other information without saying, "I'm looking for a job."

Andrew: Yeah.

Carla: Whenever I'm trying to network with someone, I always have intentionality around it. Why am I having this meeting? And maybe I'm having this meeting, A, because I want you to get to know me a little bit more, or B, I want to really understand your journey, or C, I do want to ask you to introduce me to someone else. So I always start with what am I playing for? And that's how I conduct the meeting. Now if I'm meeting with somebody like me who wants you to get directly to the ask, I go right in and I say, "Andrew, here's exactly why I'm here. I'm not going to waste your time. I want to talk to you about A, B and C." Otherwise I will lead up to it over time because some people like you to have the personal relationship that may take you three meetings, but now the fourth time I meet with you, I'm going to have an ask.

Andrew: Yeah. And also like you said, some people will cut to the chase and just say, "I feel like there's an ask behind all of this." Should people be afraid of making too big of an ask? Because sometimes... I know on my end I've had conversations with people and it was a great conversation first time I ever met, and then at the end they'll say, "Do you have a job or anything like that?" And they'll make a very large. How should people go about that?

Carla: Okay, instead of saying, "Do you have a job?" Then I would say something like, "Listen, this has been a great conversation. I already knew that I liked the organization, but now that I've met you, I really think I like the organization. Keep me in mind if anything ever comes up because I'd love an opportunity to maybe be on your team at some point," Just to think about that, right? Because I understand that sometimes people feel like, "Oh my God, this is my only opportunity. I may not ever get to sit with Andrew again. I got to say something." So instead of saying, "Do you have a job?" Just say, "Ooh, keep me in mind. I'd love to have a further conversation with you."

Andrew: I think that's such a smart way to go about it. And for someone who says, "Listen, I don't really know how to network, especially with people I don't know." What is your advice for reaching out to people cold?

Carla: Yes. So everybody has a connection. And you know that old saying about six degrees of separation? I would argue that it's one. So even though it may feel cold, do a little background on that person. What school did they go to? How long have they been at that organization? What seat are they sitting in? Let's say they're sitting in the CFO seat. Now you think to yourself, do I know any other CFOs? Who was the CFO at my last organization? Who in my class has now risen in the finance world that they might be a CFO? Make that call to see if they know that person. Then it now becomes not cold, it's warm. And if it happens to be cold, you send a letter and say, "Hey, I've admired you from afar. I saw that you did A, B, C and D. I'm a graduate of E, F and G, and I'd love to get 15 minutes of your time."

And Andrew, I'm a big fan of coffee chats. I tell people, don't ask folks out to breakfast or lunch. That's an hour. That can be a long hour if you don't have 60 minutes of content, but everybody has 15 minutes of content. And here's the thing, when you get to 14 minutes, you say, "I'm a lady, or I'm a man of my word. I want you to know that because I want to play for another meeting with you. It's 14 minutes. I asked for 15, we can cut it here." That person is thinking, "Wow, [inaudible 00:11:14] word." And that'll get you another 15.

Andrew: We'll be right back with Carla Harris.?

Andrew: And we're back with Morgan Stanley's Carla Harris. The next thing I want to talk about is relationship currency. And I know you've talked about this a lot. Can you explain a little bit about what that is?

Carla: Yes. Relationship currency is the currency that is generated by the investments that you make in the people in your environment. None of us work in a silo anymore. We're all working in highly interdependent environments, so at a minimum, you must have a relationship with every seat that touches your seat. And relationship currency is valuable for three reasons. Number one, it gives you the ability to make the out-sized ask. Number two, early on, it gets you paid and promoted. And number three, it may even help you at the end of the day to attract a sponsor and give you currency that when you make a mistake, you now have the currency to be resilient and to recover.

Andrew: And it's sort of like a bank account then?

Carla: Absolutely. That's the way I think about it.

Andrew: And then I think I've heard you talk before about performance currency. So what is that? So we're getting all the currency here.

Carla: Yes. Okay, great. I love it. I'm a banker, I love it.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Carla: All right. So performance currency is the currency that is generated by your delivering that which was asked of you and a little bit extra. Every time that you perform above somebody's expectations, you do generate performance currency. It works like the stock market. Company says 25 cents a share, they deliver 40, the stock's going up and so will yours. Performance currency is also valuable for three reasons. Early on in your career, it gets you paid and promoted because of the reputation, and it creates a reputation for you. That's the second thing that it does. And the third thing is that it may attract a sponsor because when you have great performance currency in an environment, it raises your level of visibility such that a sponsor may naturally be attracted to you. But if it doesn't happen that way, now you have the power to ask for a sponsor. And if that currency is in that bank, then it heightens the probability that they will answer in the affirmative upon your approach.

Andrew: You mentioned sponsor, and some people, especially in different parts of their career, they don't know the difference between mentor and sponsor.

Carla: Yeah.

Andrew: So can you explain that a little bit?

Carla: Yes. The mentor is the person you tell the good, the bad, and the ugly to. This is the person you share the intimate details of your career, your fears, your concerns, your mistakes, your triumphs, your strategies. I'm here, I want to be here, who do I work and how do I get there? And the mentor needs to be somebody that knows you very well because a mentor's job is to give you tailored advice, tailored specifically to you and to your career aspirations. But here's the deal, you can survive a long time in your career without a mentor, but you do not ascend in any environment without the sponsor. The sponsor is not the person you tell the good, the bad, and the ugly to. The sponsor is the person you tell the good, the good and the good because this is the person that is carrying your paper into the room. What room? That room where all of the important decisions about your career will be made. Your compensation decisions, your promotions, your new assignments, they are all made in a room behind closed doors where you are not present.

So this is the person that carries your paper into the room and use their currency, political and social currency, on your behalf to argue passionately, you get the bonus, you get the next great opportunity, you get the next great assignmen.t that is the sponsor.

Andrew: And also, I think for people who are wondering, well, why a sponsor do that? It's because you're basically saying, listen, my wins are going to be your wins and I'm going to be behind you, right?

Carla: Absolutely. At the basic level, everybody loves a star. So everybody wants to have their fingerprints on somebody who's doing really well. But let's say you're not the star, but you're really, very good. Well, the other reason somebody may want to help you is because somebody helped them. And there are a lot of people who are in positions of power that recognize that they did not get there on their own. And the last thing I'm going to say about that is the way you grow your power, Andrew, is to give it away. So the more you use your power on somebody else's behalf, the more powerful you will become.

Andrew: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And now we have some member questions coming in. We have Joe from Illinois. How does one go about finding a mentor in their desired new career?

Carla: Yes. Thanks so much for that question, Joe. So remember, your mentor does not need to be within your organization, nor do they need to look like you, but they have to understand the context that you're working in. So first of all, Joe, think about who already knows you very well, who you trust that you believe that when you're speaking to them, there's going to be one agenda item, and that's you. And so not only who do you know and knows you very well, but who might understand the context that you're going into. Let's say if you're going into healthcare or you're going into entertainment, who do you know that you trust? That is a good mentor candidate for you. Now within your organization, you can start building relationships with people as an advisory relationship. And over time, as you start to get to know them and you feel good about that relationship, you can now migrate that relationship into a mentoring relationship and use it as such.

But study your organization for two weeks, figure out who has a seat at the decision-making table, who is an influencer to those who have a seat at the table and who has a respected voice. And now you can find two or three candidates that you might start to build that advisory relationship hoping that it matures either into a mentoring relationship or a sponsor relationship.

Andrew: We're getting questions also about ageism, and we have a member question that I want to get to. It's from Dr. Aloosji Isaac-Jadal in Ontario, Canada. What are the prospects for senior citizens in the job market and how can we position ourselves in a competitive job market?

Carla: Yes, the benefit that you have if you are seasoned, that's what I'd like to say. I'm not going to call you, doctor, a senior citizen. You're seasoned. The benefit that you have is that you have experience and you've gone through a lot of different economic cycles and a lot of different situations. And so when you're sitting in front of somebody and you're trying to get a job, you want to make sure that they recognize that there's a lot of experience that you can leverage, number one. Number two, you want to show up as somebody who's agile because the knock on seasoned professionals is that you're slow, that you're stuck in your ways, that you won't think quickly. And the third thing you want to leverage is your ability to lead a team. There's so many new jobs that are cropping up so many new spaces that companies still need someone who can corral and lead a team because they don't have the time to train all those people. So they're looking for a leader that can train, develop, and get people to execute.

Andrew: And I think that unfortunately those perceptions exist, but you have to fight against them.

Carla: That's right.

Andrew: Especially with ageism, and I find this even as I get older, you have to give yourself a pep talk because if you think, okay, this is going to hold me back, whatever it may be, you project that onto whatever conversation you're having. So you sort of have to give yourself, "Hey, I'm going to walk in there. I'm going to be energetic. I am going to show them that I am the right person for this."

Carla: Right. You have to start looking at it as an asset. A thirty-year-old doesn't have that kind of experience and can't pull from all of that experience to be able to present that in an environment. People ask me all the time, Andrew, how do you deal with being the only woman in the room or the only person of color in the room? And my response is, "If you're the only one in the room that looks like you, you're the only one in the room that looks like you." Right? It's an asset, right? Because now you don't have to compete for attention. Everybody sees you when you walk in. And so now you just deliver your excellence right into that opportunity.

Andrew: Now, we have Sheridan in New York. How do you advocate for fair compensation as a woman of color, especially when you believe an offer under values your experience?

Carla: Ah, Sheridan, thank you so much for that question. When you are going into an opportunity, it's your responsibility to make sure you understand the market value of the seat. Every seat has a market value, and I am not a fan of taking below market value because it's so difficult, if ever, to catch up. So if you get an offer, let's say you get an offer for $150,000, I'm just making it up, but the market value of the seat is 175 to 225. Your response should be, "Thank you so much for the offer because I think I'm the right gal for the job as well, but I've done my homework, and the market value of the seat is between 175 and 225. If your offer was somewhere in that range, I would hit that bit," Right? And if they say, "Oh, but we've done our homework and we know you're making 125, so 150 is ahead of the game," Your response is, "It's irrelevant what I'm making now because surely you want me to deliver with excellence, and so you would want me to be compensated for the contribution that I'm going to make."

So the range, I'm there, but don't do it. Don't step back and take it below, because if you do, Sheridan, you're going to have a hard time catching up.

Andrew: And I think what's sort of in there too is that you shouldn't be afraid to negotiate.

Carla: That's exactly right. You have to because it says something about you're willing to take a job and you're being asked for an A product, but you're willing to take something that's really a C or a D in terms of the compensation. Now, let's say you're in a role where you negotiated poorly when you went in. Now you need to have the conversation and say, "I've done the homework and this is the value of the seat. Tell me how we are going to get here."

Andrew: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Carla.

Carla: Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew: I'm so fortunate that I get to sit down with you, and everyone I know watching has gotten as much out of this as I did, so thank you so much.

Carla: You're most welcome. Thanks for having me.

Andrew: That was Morgan Stanley's Carla Harris. If you want to hear more from Carla, I recommend you check out her last appearance on Get Hired, which I'll link in the show notes. And keep your eyes peeled because I'll be hosting more exclusive conversations for LinkedIn premium subscribers in April and May on LinkedIn. I'll share those links on my profile.?

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. The show is produced by Grace Rubin and Emily Reeves. Assaf Gidron engineered our show. Tim Boland mixed our show. We get additional support from Alexandra Kuznietsova and Ali McPherson. Sarah Storm is our senior producer. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Dave Pond is head of production and Creative Operations. Maya Pope-Chappel is Director of Content and Audience Development. Courtney Coupe is head of original programming. Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn, and I am Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.