Tips for managing a multi-generational (and multi-tenured) marketing team

Managing diverse teams has never been easy. Throw in a pandemic and increasingly distributed/remote employees and the challenge (and opportunities) proliferate.

Friday's CMO Coffee Talk sessions focused on best practices and experience shares managing a multi-generational and multi-tenured team. Chat highlights featuring numerous reading and learning recommendations are below.

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My general leadership theory is that it’s my job to grow/nurture people to where they want to go…inside or outside of my company

Same, plus my job is to provide the resources my team needs and remove obstacles that get in their way of being successful

I would say the? work/life balance for younger folks depends on the industry they’re working in. My son and his girlfriend? working in management consulting, and they work 12 hour days pretty regularly.

hours do not matter imo, if the job's getting done

I sometimes gotta wonder why we expect people to be mind-readers and do magic just to get promoted. Like…just tell them what’s required and let them decide whether to do it. Early in my career, I had to play guessing games and then got lovely surprises when I’d ask for a promotion

Most marketing leaders get that, but sometimes its helping others across the org understanding that is the philosophy and how things are getting done

I’ve had people tell me when they’re having lunch, going to the doctors, all the details of their time. I had to remind them that they did so much in the time they gave (they were very good at setting boundaries too) that I didn’t care where they were every minute. Just cared about how much they did and at the high quality they produced.

Never been a clock watcher - just outcomes.

Agreed! Working for a B2B firm that bills by the quarter hour for professional services - it's hard to get that mentality across to leadership for our 'unbillable' staff.

Show your vulnerability and humility as a leader, share your own mistakes, be comfortable admitting you don't have ALL the answers

same. i always have to tell my team - you don’t have to tell me when you’re away from slack. im not watching the green light

I have had to coach our old school HR leader that I don't expect clock punching - not great for professional teams vs call center teams.

Setting boundaries on how you work and expect to work both with your team, and other internal teams, can be helpful for the different learning styles and working styles.

Internal marketing about the differences of how marketing may work versus other teams can be helpful.

:::shudder::: time sheets give me an eye twitch

I love remote management. It forces me to ignore little things

OMG, I think you and I are cut from the same cloth.

The challenge for us (me at least), when I tell people not to work crazy hours like nights and weekend, is to do the same myself. I think we as leaders set the example for our teams; I respect their boundaries while trying to emulate them myself.

younger people are less likely to put up with old marketing platforms that are difficult to use. more likely to point out areas that they don't understand. refreshing!

That’s an interesting observation. I would have assumed the opposite.

Here are a few of my thoughts on EX, inspired by Tiffani Bova's talk last year. Key Takeaways from “The Power of Hidden Teams” HBR Article

https://pdxmindshare.com/the-power-of-hidden-teams-hbr/

https://www.inc.com/entrepreneurs-organization/why-your-company-needs-a-comprehensive-employee-customer-experience-plan.html

https://www.inc.com/entrepreneurs-organization/why-employee-bonuses-do-not-work-and-what-to-do-instead.html

What she mentioned about assuming holds true for the “older generation” too.

I think we sometime assume young people know tools because they grew up with it. I found twice this week where people (advanced users) asked me about something in Google Sheet and PowerPoint that you would think are very basic and they just didn't know

A lot of GenZers don't even know what a folder organization is on a computer

Sometimes there is a cynicism from the "older" generation that comes through that fights with the optimism and boldness/courage to take risks from the newer generation coming in.

Expecting people to be creative only between 9-5 was also something that doesn’t work

I've done that as a "user manual" - a GSD sheet sounds MUCH better, less like we're a machine

I got a 5 page “operations manual” for one employee that dictated everything about how you can work with her and how she wouldn’t work

Great way to share expectations

I have something similar called the user manual. It has helped me understand different work styles. Love the Get Shit Done title!!!

All of my calendar blocks are listed as 'GSD' time

I have every one on my team write their playbook within 2 weeks of joining and some share them each month in our all hands. I wish I had used the title of GSD!

just said the same thing! ha never liked the name "user manual" like we're a machine

I've had toxic peers use those vulnerable insights to intentionally trigger

Big fan of level setting the group, all generations and all styles , using StregthnsFinder

We create personal “User Guides” along those lines, even sharing personality tests (Myers-Briggs, Strengths Finder, etc).

It’s like a Personal Operating System that helps people know how you work best and how you like to be communicated with. It’s a great exercise. That title is much better though!

Adding “stress behaviors” portion to our user manuals immediately…

Heard a good interview with Claire Hughes Johnson where she shares this with coworkers

https://growth.eladgil.com/book/the-role-of-the-ceo/insights-working-with-claire/

+1, that happens. culture will eat all great ideas

READMEs are super helpful - same idea

The thumbs up is like offensive

I will never say kk

I need to do this for myself. I’m very particular.

Excellent interview on many topics, https://tim.blog/2024/02/27/claire-hughes-johnson/

TikTok is also the most amazing place to learn the new cultural norms with younger gens - haha

Suddenly, I’m giving all the ????s from my team the side-eye

Back in the office days HR asked me to have a talk with a millennial because people complained about how he would dress to the office

I hope kindness,? empathy and engagement wins over emojis and all the “latest” comms ideas. Let’s take the thumbs-up back ?

One framework I use that helps generally, but works very well with younger team members is clearly communicating the scope/tone of my guidance and feedback.

Thoughts/opinion - no mandate to act on or respond to any of the info, just sharing.

Recommendation - my preferred action, but I’m not married to it. They can accept or reject a recommendation without comment.

Ask - a formal ask is assigned work that is expected to be completed by the parameters provided. The team member is welcome to push back and present info/data/rationale for why it shouldn’t be done or done differently.

Mandate - assigned work expected to be completed to spec, pushback/debate is not appropriate. (Try to keep this very rare.)

I also often set “constraints” that can come in the form of an “ask” or “mandate” where as long as they adhere to the constraints the actions and execution method are fully left up to the team member (e.g. We need to improve our demo page conversion rate - how is up to you.)

It’s like “Hey…totally do that stuff when you can. We all have to work around each other to get stuff done"

PRO TIP: Don't try to use new slang to sound cool at work without Googling all the possible meanings because GenZ loves re-using not safe for work terminology to mean other stuff ??.?? For example, don't use the new term for taking a flight without any distractions like phone or entertainment in a work environment!

Just putting my parenting hat, there is a reason why as parents we need to put clear boundaries in place and why certain behaviors are not acceptable.

Work is a compromise/negotiation at best.?? So great that we hear/read their PREFERENCES, but work has a few prefeences that need to be considered as well

We do the 4-5 hour block expectation too partly with timezones

including: need to work the hours to get it done

If you have to do al that stuff, perhaps don’t, you know, MAKE IT A THING. Shut up and do it. But you have to SHOW UP within a range of dedication that is expected of the team.

According to her document. All of the brainstorming sessions had to be via email, with all points and arguments laid out first, then 2 days for the team to determine and reply to their counter arguments. Then the brainstorming session was just to align on the things that had done via email.

Not global, but spanning 3 timezones, we’ve all agreed to “meet in the middle” and be available during central 9-5

we would usually do a handoff when everyone was in office. for EMEA early in EST time for APAC in the very early evening. so that everyone knew what had to be worked on and much less one off calls and people were productive

For global teams, I give folks the flex re hours to accommodate the global team calls (late US evenings for Asia) etc.

Sounds like a fast track to nothing get done

I try not to schedule things too late for my eastern person and he tries not to book me too early for my mountain time

Perhaps, it all comes down to shifting our perspective on older work habits—from measuring time spent to focusing on deliverables. I’m not concerned with how much time people work; what matters to me is their productivity, and as their manager, I’m committed to removing any barriers that stand in the way. I've also noticed a growing trend of companies adopting a four-day workweek which I find interesting.

For global teams with different cultural norms, important to be mindful of how certain communication gets interpreted...email without tonality context of conversation can be misinterpereted...asking for feedback in group settings vs. more intimate 1:1 can be misleading where not a comfort to openly communicate in groups.? So I've found need to understand and be flexible in how to engage the global team.

That needs to flip so it's not only xxxx bearing the burden of flexing to others, imo

We take the approach of providing space for people to work how they work but also expect a bit of flexibility. For example, I'm not a morning person I don't start my day "officially" until 10am but occasionally I'll take a 9am meeting.

It's the same with people who have blocks for the gym or walks etc. Everyone has their "norm" but remains flexible when needed.

ChatGPT is sooooooo good for this!!

My crew always says "part of what you sign up for when working for a US/EMEA company" - but I agree, needs to be all sides, we take turns on late and early calls

Fully remote team - we have 1x week company call, and 1x week marketing team call. Apart from those times, team member working hours a completely up to them.

Slack, email, Jira are all considered “async” comms methods - e.g. respond next time you are online with a general 24 hr SLA unless you are on PTO.

I schedule 1:1s in a timezone that works for my reports (e.g. I start my daily earlier on Thursdays to do a weekly 1:1 with my DevRel manager in Sweden .)

When my 25 year old comes home and works from home I literally watch her behavior. She’s a high performer in results BUT how she works is very different than how I’ve ever worked. She was raised working remote - with COVID and working in a remote role.? She’s constantly moving to different rooms for a change; multi tasking with social. If you have a 20s year old - watch them work. It’s helped me think about how the younger people on my team may be working.

During our meetings, we eliminate all other forms of communication to maintain our focus.

it's too much to have someone expect to respond to all Slack instantly especially if they are a heads down programmer.? the little alerts are very distracting.? parameters around keeping it on, and how long it should be before a response is expected, should be enough.

I think expectation setting and trust are core along with regularly asking questions - what meetings are you attending, who are you meeting with and how regularly, what is your capacity and bandwidth, how are you spending your time? Can you take on more?

When we interviewed someone, she took notes on her phone. It was soooo jarring. She didn’t address it and all of us were a bit weirded out. But we hired her and it she is great. But it was one of those — crap, we’re old — moments

I work like that (and I’m genX), but I’m pretty sure it’s the ADHD…

I'm 44 and hate being sprung with questions. I need a moment to think. Or rash decisions can happen.

Can we talk about the …other… generation and how to keep older folks on topic during calls? I groan when one person is invited to meetings because I know the agenda won’t be followed.

Huge +1 to empowering team members for channels to provide opportunities for both live and asynchronous “I got to think about it” communication.

Better for diversity - includes different personality types and neurodiversity

I think about it as values fit, culture add.? I need them to meet our values, but add to our culture.

Yes! I struggle with this with one of my team members.

There is good research on different Learning Styles that has always stuck with me about the difference in visual learners, versus those who want to digest details ahead of time versus those who react in real-time.

Agreed. IMO expectation setting helps there.

And how to not have them suck all the oxygen out of the room as they pontificate

Bumper lanes for everyone's unique ball to bounce between.

i think this is beyond generational. its personality

Is anyone else concerned about younger team members who miss out on a lot of mentoring possibilities in a work from home environment?

I’m struggling with someone that is older than me and expecting all data and resources to be perfect before they can accomplish anything.

It’s one thing to accommodate someone’s work style, but it’s another to allow it to become a distraction to the rest of the team. While listening to and embracing new ideas is important, teams ultimately succeed with a well-defined process or playbook

Prior to hiring we set expectations. With our global team, we have set expectations, ie., “Must be available during US 8 am-12 pm PT for meetings”.

Before interviewing, take a look at your company culture. Does it make sense for humans, the bottom line, or a great balance of both???

Good point. It is, however, entitled behavior, and many boomers have that attitude

That is so frustrating. They can't do any work without a 10% view of the overall work?

It depends on how those mentoring opportunities are presented. If you have a strong culture of documentation and writing things down along with transparency to share info broadly in the org then remote teams get MORE mentoring because they have async access to critical info that in other orgs is locked behind “being invited to the right calls.”

As someone who lived in xxx for a long time, that is the best way to do that. Folks in London and New York in particular can forget that they are not the centre of the universe. ??

how about recording meetings or even pre-meetings with loom for async meetings

Did something similar. We flip flopped timezones with each mtg.

I have an employee that is fresh out of college, I've started doing a monthly general calls on the company to try and help her learn stuff she otherwise would have learned

We did the rotating meeting schedule previously in my career-- it sucked at times, but I called it "spread the suck" so it was equally annoying.... worked well though!

I’m a “there’s no stupid questions” person but….if you didn’t read the meeting topic don’t keep interrupting, you needed to get up to speed offline.

Neurodivergency needs to be considered 100%

To what extend? I had an employee which was clearly ADHD, and when he was not taking his med he would just chat with all of us, wasting everyone time on non-work related issues

I would LOVE to learn more about how I can support ND team members because I’m honestly at a loss a lot of the time communicating with this person

I wonder if Pre-Reads would be helpful with personalities like this. I was at an org that required pre-reads before meetings and that solved this sort of issue because if it was in the pre-read, it wasn't fair to ask for someone to go over that data during the meeting... it was assumed that had been read.

“I hear you saying this is difficult for you to understand” but I don’t hear them telling me how I can clarify/better train/approach them differently.

I've been in the same position. I was too accommodating for too long and it bit me in the a**. Hard lessons certainly learned there. Happy to chat on the side if you'd like.

Does anyone feel like the sandwich generation at work... high exectation CEO's and borads and SOME younger anti-culture team members?

I went through something similar. It required a lot of flexibility (including one of the team members did her best work at night...she was stressed by the Slack interruptions and task switching)

it will vary by the type of ND. But generally helping them to be organized, structure and routines helps, and summarize things in writing also helps

thank you, this is less about their work getting done and more about how they interface with the rest of the marketing team. If they have so many rules / preferences that the rest of the team is spending so much energy bending to them, or if those preferences of theirs conflict with other team members, what do you do?

Would LOVE to do a neurodiversity sesh

i think that company wide meetings that are recorded that communicate expectations are a good thing. they are good for onboarding too because you can have someone watch them. these have worked for me for 10 years going especially working with a company that had customers in all the geographies.

I really appreciate this - and to push back gently here in this safe space…shouldn’t my adult professional colleague tell me what she needs?

Some would be able to tell you and some wont (often very high on anxiety goes together with ND)

ChatGPT seems to think that marketing communications styled in GenX should sound like a used car salesperson, so be warned

Big +1 for “write things down” is a general practice that helps most types of neurodiversity (both providing written info and asking for info in writing) as well as helping in global companies where English is the company language, but many are not naive speakers.

Mental health continues to enter management conversations. Does anyone have clear, updated guidelines for how involved you get with your team member’s issues? Has anyone’s company addressed this in training or policies?

When Zoom and Teams replace the Thumbs Up with KK, then happily I'll use KK.

Sometimes it helps to ask the really direct questions of how they want to be communicated with. As a manager, I think we bear more of the burden to modify our style versus their style.

That's just a prompting thing - if you adjust your prompting it doesn't do that

Ah, the derailing of meeting lol

That sounds like a personality thing more than an age thing.

Can you provide a structure for questions and prep work ahead of those meetings? That helps with his issue and helps for those who need prep time to digest information.

What about long tenured folks??

I often feel like a therapist

Encouraging formal mentorship commitment from my more experienced team members to work with others in the organization has helped move from arm folded skepticism to greater mutual understanding with the other generations.? Instead of a "them" mentality it opened up a way to see how they can help shape and transform the growth of others.? It really turned the tide in some cases.

That said, how do we balance the similarities and differences between gender, age, neuro diversity, etc.

half my job is team therapy

speaking of therapy... I love this call.

I'm not sure age/generation is the defining characteristic.?? Some people use/want to use the new tools, others don't?? Have plenty of 60+ that are super tool fluent, and plenty of younger team members that have trouble figuring out how to use SFDC or our other tools.

If you are in the US you are required by law to certain mental health accommodations under the ADA.

You won’t be a for-profit business for very long if you ignore this.

Is the expectation to adapt to everyone else style?

Where does it stop? I think it comes down to supply and demand. When the employer has the power and an over supply of potential employees, the company will care less about all the GenZ demands.

One trick is to completely ignore age (just dont' think about it), and just look at preferred learning style, preferred comms style, natural strengths, etc.?? Anybody and everybody needs coaching in something.

I've seen people lean into age from a negative perspective, but other diversity issues from a positive perspective. Is it possible to be consistent and have these differences in perspective?

The hard part is we’re jaded as leaders because we have exposure to that cut through part of the business Julia is talking about where the companies don’t really care, but as humans we have empathy for our team members. It’s difficult to be in the middle and its tiring.

I think there is some “workplace culture conformity” that the full team needs to practice — that’s what being on the team means

I had someone on my team who kept crying to her manager - literally. I was like “fire her if you need to”. After many hours of management therapy, this person became a high-performer, but it was only one week out from me turning around and cutting the person.

?

Gen X ignored again

I think there is a reality check going on now exactly to her point. What is the purpose of a corporation? To produce shareholder value. Lots of other good things can be wrapped around that, but the reason for the existence of corporations is just that.

I think there are limits, and I think that you need to work with HR to work through some of the more thorny issues to work up or out some of the more extreme examples we are hearing here.

yesss. I am all for trying, but I've had some ppl where its just not a fit - mutually. if they're struggling that uch, this might not be the best setting for them

We have to work TOGETHER. So, yes, meet them, but also let them know that they have to reach out to meet you (and business norms), too

The key is "mutual" agreement to respect the needs of the team and org with individual needs.

We are cut from the same cloth, and since I’m an asshole sometimes, I had to shrug ??

Perhaps companies that aren't interested in adapting to the evolving post-capitalist market should consider using AI to replace people. ????♀?

There is a balance to support the company and support your team. You need to lean on HR to cover your own butt because bad things can happen to you for trying to be a human being first sometimes.

As usual, perfectly said. Exactly what I want to convey. As usual said better.

Focus on a team culture that supports your top performers.

At some point the work needs to get done. Who’s left to do it?

(Said as I cover for team members while writing a board deck)

I had a candidate (who I ended up hiring) who ended her interview with the laundry list of how to work with her, communicate, etc. etc.

My response was thank you but you will have to learn to work with me and understand my management style and learn to manage me. Thanks for sharing but no intent to develop 12 different personalities to suit the 12 persons on my team.

She still joined and ended up being a great hire!

I’m seeing WhatsApp really increasing to avoid slack.

?I think though we as leaders chose the path of being a leader, which comes with this kind of challenges ... being a leader that helps their team to be in the environment where they can thrive. Agree if work doesn't get done and all coaching and accommodations don't work, then it's a different conversation.

I love this for micro-communities

European teams love WhatsApp, way more than Americans adopt it.

Also on the topic of accommodations - parents. I swear everyone I know who is NOT a parent says they ALWAYS are expected to pick up more work because of accommodations being made for parents on a regular basis. (The childfree tax at work)

I’m really learning to like WhatsApp

My cofounder had to tell me to stop posting my thoughts in the engineering channel and to let him handle it (granted, I was losing my sh*t b/c a developer was being spectacularly dumb), but I think overall it’s a way for him to gate my ADHD

I learned a similar phrase from a Zer intern of mine “clarity is kindness”

I have adult kids but my partner does not and she definitely feels this!

A woman at my wife's company died in her cubicle on a Friday and they found her on Tuesday....Life is short. Get outside.? <3

I think everyone needs to get better at setting boundaries.

It’s written that there are a lot of benefits of having a multi-generational team makeup. I’m wondering if anyone on this call has a specific example of that - either based on a product launch or a marketing brainstorm session for the different ways we might reach a target audience given different team member’s experience on where/how to make connections and drive engagement. Said differently I would love to know of a positive example or use case for having a multi generational team

This is what I don't get... if we're going to be accommodating for the other person being sick or in the future having a child, why are we allowed to pick and choose the accommodations that we choose to focus on. THE question is whether the person at hand is a net positive contributor and supporter of the team. What it another employee doesn't like other personal decisions and needs of other team members.

annoyance is everywhere ha so true

Sometimes assholes are just assholes

Yes! annoying people come in all shapes

Love the clarity is kindness comment!!

so so true...

Another way to phrase boundary setting - success hedges

Re: mental health (and leading people in general) - I think it all comes down to flexibility/working personalization for each teammate in the workplace. As leaders, do we give the people on our team the time, flexibility, communication style they need to succeed so that the jobs get done? On the management side I’ve seen the best performing teams be those where each member is seen as an individual with individual needs (within reason of course).

On top of that though, since COVID there has been a huge decline in overall mental health - and so there is another layer to consider - some people are in complete mental distress and that may require outside resources for help.

Not for snowflakes, but all for boundaries. Younger generations have realized that the company will always put themselves first. Instead of bending to that, they’re prioritizing themselves.

Hey - I had to learn to accommodate introverts by letting them actually think about things ????♀?

As an introvert I thank you

… I don’t know about you, but I feel like I learned this lesson the hard way myself later in my career. So I say good for those kids!

100% more diverse the team is the stronger/more resilient it is

true - we want all the diversity we can get. and need to each work on collaborating better

STRENGTHFINDERS ??

This... and changing the POV that the "first to talk" or "loudest" is the best. It's on us as leaders to listen for the quiet people who have very good thoughts

The more diverse team makes work more fun too! Many personalities and lens’s makes the day fun and interesting, in addition filling business gaps

As a parent to a ND young adult (though different than my suspect ADHD), it thought me so much, that there is no way I would have known it without it.

For global teams, it's hard, because on top of generational differences, different communications styles, time difference, technology preferences, multi-tasking skillset, neurodivergence, etc. there is a consideration of cultural differences and how people used to be operating with all of the above, how open / guarded they are, how they make decisions, etc. For the Cultural differences, there is a good book "The Culture Map" by Erin Meyer. Helpful to understand at least one of these dimensions.

schedule send features on outlook and Slack are great features!

I also like to delay send on emails or Teams messages to deliver during normal work hours

I might schedule my emails so that it doesn't look like I wrote it late nights or weekends.

Yes, I put that PLEASE DONT REPLY UNTIL MONDAY in my emails if I go off hours.

I schedule weekend emails to be delivered Monday am.

Thanks for hosting this important topic.?? Have a great weekend all - enjoy the extra day!

I've got 7 BDRs, 6 it's their first job out of college! And my solutions marketing manager is in her 60s (~10 yrs my senior).

One truth: Millennials are taking over the world!

https://www.amazon.com/Millennial-Reboot-Generations-Playbook-Professional/dp/161961538X/ref=sr_1_1

Older millennials are now in their 40s!!! #IamSoVeryOld

What have been your experiences with helping Millennials and GenZ understand the value of (at least some) in-person working?

They are great— they just need mentoring

And reverse mentoring. As the Last Working Boomer in Tech, I’ve learned a TON from GenX, Millennials, and now GenZ. Curiosity and asking question is vital. I probably have more to learn than to teach - it’s their world now!

Rolling up all the different attributes that make up workplace behavior... it's the egosystem and it needs as much attention as the ecosystem

They need mentoring but they also WANT to work remotely, be digital nomads, and prefer to chat over zoom over face to face ??

(Gross generalization of course, and yet)

My middle managers are struggling with the more junior folks who entered the workforce during COVID. This cohort seems to expect to be promoted quickly and often and without taking on additional responsibility. And they want to be given flexibility to do their side hustles.

I would consider us to be a VERY flexible company when it comes to work hours, etc. and we’re 100% remote. I’mm fully in support of this flexibility but we have identified a couple situations where its being abused ??

3-5 years sounds much higher than the average millennial tech tenure at a single company

seeing a lot move even sooner than 3-5yrs

IMHO 80% of managing is about active listening. It’s an individual sport.

That is true. Level matters. A BDR is gonna be in the role for a year and either be promoted or move on. Higher level roles have a little longer tenure…but still no gold watches.

Setting specific competencies for each? level helps have the conversations about what they need to do for the promotion

My dad used to say, “you will not get paid for more than you do until you do more than you get paid for,”

+1 — there is a reaping/sowing confusion I’ve seen.

As part of empathy

i see junior (even senior) marketing tenures in tech closer to 2-3yrs

Having someone with less tenure promoted over me early in my career pissed me off…and was the best lesson ever.

I wonder if there's some conflation with the younger generation between seeing people who are without a living wage (and fighting for that) and that they also should get paid more.

I’ve seen the opting into demotion in a few companies

Also facing a younger generation that needs a lot of time off.? Expectation setting has been key to honor the PTO but ensure they remain accountable to task. The word “accountable” is used daily

So we talk a lot about the challenges (they are impatient, they are not loyal etc etc) - anyone have solutions? (Preferably ones that don’t start with “in my generation…”)

Side hustles are tricky! (Both having one, and managing people with one)

I have had under performing SDR's frustrated that they weren't promoted... My Gen X brain had a really hard time with that..

Never again will I hire a FTE with a side hustle.

Driving my kid is 100% a side hustle!

Yeah no.

Setting clear expectations, having regular structured 1:1s, and giving young people a chance to stretch on a fun team project that's beyond their job have been successful for me.

I had someone with a side hustle of Yoga instructor and they dictated her “work day”.? Needless to say the side hustle hours were modified quickly when I learned this

Yeah, that ain’t gonna fly!

My previous company fired an AE because this guy broke his contract by doing two jobs simultaneously not coming to the office.? We only found out because he put both jobs on LinkedIn.

How to have honest, mature conversations about boundaries is a sorely needed career skill.

Do you feel like today there’s so many ways to “gain experience” through side hustles that it then makes the team members feel like they’ve gained experience for promotions sooner than their management might realize?

To be fair on side hustles, it may be hard for a new hire to understand the boundaries when your senior execs have five-six titles as Advisor and Board Member going at the same time in addition to their W2.

I had an entry level marketing exec in a 3 month review present a powerpoint on why he should be promoted to a director level - with a 30K raise. Now he was doing a great job, but I ended up creating a job goal of what a director level requires (anywhere) and tried to steer him to working towards that, and offered conferences and education development… it helped giving an outlet and goal and showed that we were willing to help.

For one of my reports, about 10 years younger, it helped to do more personal disclosure about my work history. Before I could talk to them about hitting their deadlines and showing more commitment, I talked at length about bosses who gave me tough lessons. It seemed to break the ice and show that everyone has to learn.

YES! We’re working on a competency matrix for each job role

And each of the levels need to show skills in both technical and other skills - like management and (toward the top) leadership.

GenZer - “I saw your competency matrix and I am pretty sure I check all the boxes”

that IC growth path is critical - not everyone needs to be a manager to be promoted

Some recent examples that I’ve come across that were new ones for me:

1: I had asked some people to travel to support us for a week at an event - at most 4 days. Both came back with maybe but they would need to check with their family.?

2: I’d like to take 2 days next week sick leave!! When I drilled in they were looking for mental health days - they just weren’t feeling it

3: I was asked - Is your input optional? Or do I need to accept it

These made me smile? and ??

A friend of mine has a phrase for that: “Brutal honesty, kindly delivered.” You gotta be clear. Clear is kind.

“Show” is the key word

And don't just talk about it at review time, talk in you ongoing 1:1s.

Yes, totally agreed. Clarifying expectations and providing training on key competencies would be quite helpful.

Research has shown that Gen Z has less developed communication and social skills partially due to COVID but largely because they grew up with their noses in their phones and missed out on playing muds with mates (and throwing muds at each other) in the field to develop these critical people skills.

And causes tears in some folks.

Yup. Frameworks set expectations, benchmarks and reinforce desired behavior

And we’re telling people THEY own their career development so they need to understand the competencies expected of where they are and what they aspire to - and they should assess themselves and ask their manager for feedback

We use a leaving grid as well it’s pretty helpful

We have the matrix too. Another benefit is that the matrix allowed me to right size roles of people who were hired way above their competency.

Come on in — the water is warm in grumpy land

I tell my team that they are the entrepreneurs of their own careers - meaning they need to own their path learning path with support but we/I will not do it for them.

most companies pay managers more than ICs and that will drive behavior. Some large enterprises now have progression paths for both ICs and managers with equal pay

The experiential experiences and learnings

Tears are okay. Typically a sign of where the stress is, especially in people who care about their work. We need to normalize that people have emotions and the best skill is how to help people navigate work with them. This is actually something I appreciate about younger generations.

and when the clouds clear, clarity

I think this has happened with every generation—we just talk about it now

Kim Scott's concept of "care deeply, challenge directly" in Radical Candor is a great way to honest conversations that work well.

I had one who took “unlimited PTO” literally — without regard for the clause that said “as long as you do your job”. Wound up with HR...

Peter Kazanjy’s (Atrium) deck on The Sales Performance Gap. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1WEdq5L2omi6M0w29G9Ly-POEYxy9gOL5EJAmrXxi2do/edit#slide=id.p

Promotions are tied to impact, not tenure - the number of times i have to say it! ??♀?

None of the millennials on team my like excel. I asked yesterday as we reviewed the budget spreadsheet. I love excel!

If there was more transparency about the reality of marketing leadership roles, maybe fewer people would be chasing promotions ??

Agree completely.? My content director thought she had leadership skills to advance to CMO but she didn't understand the difference.? I should have done what you just described.

That’s leadership which is the biggest part of the role as an executive in the org.

“Bringing them along” is something I do as much as possible. So much that I get in trouble for bringing managers to “directors level” meetings. How can they be expected to do the next job if they don’t know what it looks like????

giving opportunities to stretch as well - presenting in front of large groups on town halls etc to build those skills

Skip level is a really good thing to do - get them to do skip level once a quarter or something - it gets them good exposure to sr leadership and shows them what needed

The less life and work experience people have, the more they need to be in-person. Some job functions just naturally skew younger and companies should consider setting up in-person hubs with their managers for those functions. We did this at our last company for the BDR team and the quality improved rapidly.

Love that. And you have to give them guardrails. If they fail in that situation, it’s likely because I didn’t ensure that they understood the assignment.

This is great!? Captures what we have been talking about in our leadership meetings.

To complicate things (since I have a knack of doing so), my daughter is 14 going 15.? She is Gen Alpha, and will be entering the workforce soon.?

Scholars say that yet again what motivates Gen Alpha can be different from Gen Z as they are the COVID generation and they've grown up differently.

Great question to ask a direct…”If you were promoted to <x>, what do you think would be different? What do you think you would like? What do you think would frustrate you? What would you have to be great at to be successful in that role?”? Let’s work on that first.

We follow EOS and set quarterly Rocks - I’ve found its important to have at least one of those rocks that is focused on them. Personal learning or development.

We have to also remember, if you started on the Agency side, sometimes your job is to educate senior marketers on emerging trends

I try to stick to outcomes and explain how it works. “If you don’t do the work, don’t expect the results.”

We started using a 12 box to evaluate every team member. This has great helped in our expectation setting for employees as it’s not just about doing the job but how you work with others, work product is perceived by others, etc. So it’s not just my opinion or the competency matrix that gets you promoted it’s how well you work with others and your peers agree

That annoys the fuck out of me, tbh. “Let me tell you how marketing works now”, without checking first to understand what I know and believe.

Thinking more about his earlier point. How much are we just doomed to repeat history and that generations will always clash with each other? Will we always be annoyed with the generations above and below us?

In other words, don’t assume I’m clueless. Talk to me first, so you KNOW that I’m clueless ??

Getting to understand what makes them tick.

I also learned that a period in a text message is also an FU.

“Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants.” - Socrates

Mentorship, coaching and empathy are the key! I was certainly an impatient ambitious shithead. Though I was willing to take on ANYTHING someone wanted to throw at me. I was lucky to have some amazing managers who took the time to give me honest feedback, coach me and give me opportunities that built foundational skills.

I always say, I'm only married to what works.. the results will tell us quickly... getting caught up on what you did a ta previous job or how the market works is a waste.. it's all about what can work here! Lets figure it out together.

Email is bad for precise communication. Emojis are a nightmare. Talking is so much better….or async Looms.

A generational glossary of terms would be super helpful to help teams better understand each other and understand place and belonging

I had a summer intern once give me a list of modern slang. It was eye opening.

An open conversation about the differences helps, not putting it so much in writing.? As a Baby Boomer I know there's something we all bring to the game.

Show them what is needed to progress...

I’m not accommodating emoji generational differences. Peeps can learn to interpret my emojis. Lol

as a marketing leader breaking down the siloes within the functions (demand gen, PMM, Digital) can help a lot in terms of allowing ppl to be exposed to the bigger picture of what marketing does. Often it's a win-win because they get exposure and as the team leader you have much more well-rounded employees

that’s how to help them grow… mentor them and show them the way

I feel a bit of the same - we all need to adapt to one another, not just one direction.

There are a lot of comments here about the younger team members sharing a lot. Is anyone experiencing the opposite? Where they seem closed and rigid, almost afraid to share their whole selves…being more human? This is a fully remote situation.

Exactly - accommodation needs to happen both ways

I will say I’ve learned a lot from the younger generations - they do advocate from themselves, and putting boundaries for better work-life balance. Sometimes I am in awe. I grew up working to basically do the most at all times, phone on available any time anywhere… checking emails on vacation.

It’s a leaders job to bring people along to the best of our ability. And at some point tell people to get on the bus or get off

Yes, and the first time they opened up was in person at a SKO.

Other people thinking they know how to do marketing is cross-generational and will be here until the end of time

Nothing will kill potential great ideas from younger team members like “throwing tenure around” - not a fan #sorry

Yep. Avoiding getting fired for a long time is NOT an accomplishment.

one more tip - OK is also passive aggressive. kk is more acceptable

There is nothing worse in my experience then the "i Know better" folks... could be the newbies or the folks that have been there too long...

I’m looking for the link, but I recall the Manager Tools Podcast saying something to the effect of…

“When we agree to work in an organization, we agree to subordinate some of our personal preferences for the benefit of the organization.”

So, we can have a conversation about what things you’re comfortable subordinating, and what things are non-negotiable for you.

In other words, as an employee, you are free to enforce whatever boundaries you want, but you are not free from the consequences of setting them.

And if you're not the only one who doesn't get it but you can ask good questions in a group meeting, you can help others come into the path.

To his point on leadership, it is important to be among the team and to get in the boat with them, but it doesn’t work well if everyone is involved in every meeting, decision, etc. So, it requires judgement and experience on what that balance should be.