Thoughts on Complexity (this might get complicated ...)
Microsoft Designer

Thoughts on Complexity (this might get complicated ...)

PS I don't use AI for writing content - except where I would explicitly state it. So, for better or worse, these are my own thoughts and sentences. The picture is AI generated with Designer.

There was an article by Niels Pfl?ging about the Cynefin framework and other complexity theories - it's here: https://lnkd.in/eCPMPbeH. Below his article, there are also already some comments.

I have the impression that partially, Pfl?ging and Snowden use the same words, but with different meaning, which is not so obvious. This leads to part of the disagreement.

??'?? ???????? ???? ???????? ???????? - ??????????????????????????, ???? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????? - ????????????????, ?????????????????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????????????????????? ?????????????? ????????????????.


  • For example: Pfl?ging argues correctly that aspects of complicated and complex very often appear mixed in a situation, both parts are present, not "clearly" just one and not the other. He uses this to reject the separated domains in Cynefin.
  • ?? Snowden also writes that both often exist "overlapping", and his model is often drawn with crooked lines to symbolize that reality is not clear-cut black or white. I had wondered why the areas don't overlap though, also.
  • Snowden created "overlapping" matrices of his domains, for example in this 01/24 article: https://lnkd.in/eD7qZe96 ... where he writes that "?????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ????????????????????, ???????????????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ?????????? ????????????????????."


  • Another point is: Pfl?ging argues that there is no real difference between "clear" (simple) and "complicated".
  • ?? I agree, with a "but": I don't understand Snowden to say that there is a fundamental difference in the domains, but that the differentiator for him is that in "clear", there is ?????? ?????????? ????????????????.
  • ... Whereas in "complicated", there are good solutions that can be found by the experts, but there may be different good solutions. Not like most math problems that just have one right solution. ... So this different use of "clear" and "complicated" to me makes sense (and ... isn't it all about ?????????????????????? ???)


  • The "middle domain" which sometimes is called "confused" or "disorder", now is called ???????????????? or ???????????????????? - seems to be an important "enabler" in Snowden's Cynefin sensemaking framework.
  • ?? Citing Socrates as "???? ????????????????, ???????????? ???? ???????????????????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????????????????? ???? ?????????? ???? ??????????" he writes: "?????? ?????????????? ???? ???????????????? ???????????? ???? ???? ???????????? ?? ?????????? ???? ???????????????????????? ??????????????????, ?? ?????????????????????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????????? ??????????????????????" ... So aporia is triggered deliberately in situations where people are wanted to not fall back into their usual thinking and comfort zone - an unease that is necessary to think in new ways. ... But I have not read about that enough yet personally.


  • ?? Dave Snowden's own top 2 of his top 10 "common errors in using Cynefin" (article: https://thecynefin.co/cynefin-st-davids-2021-3-of-3/) are: (don't do's) 1. ?????????? ?????????????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????????????????????? 2. ???????????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????????in the same above article, Snowden argues several more points that may touch the view of Pfl?ging, one of them being on "??????????", stating that "?????????? ???? ???? ?????????????????? ???? ?????? ????????.????????????? ???????? ?????????????????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????????? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ???????? ?????????????????????? ???? ?????????????????? ??????????????????????." - this might be the point.


  • ?? Three more phrases by Snowden about Cynefin that I found interesting are:

- ?????????????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ????????????????????????????, ???? ???? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????? ??????????????

- "??????'?? ???????????? ??????????????-???????? ?????????????????? - ???? ???????? ???? ?? ??????????????-???????????????? ??????????"

- ?????????????? ???? ?? ??????????????-???????????????? ??????????????????, ?????????????? ???? ?????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ??????????????????????, ???????????????????? ?????? ????????????????????


I also found even the English Wikipedia article on Cynefin pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework


?? Al Shalloway posted a link to a webinar on complexity that he did a couple of weeks ago that is recommendable and offers some good thoughts on not becoming overwhelmed by complexity: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/b5kvx2lyzc92cf7fgte4m/Complexity2.mp4?rlkey=17rk2jk5cbkxso8yh96j9qg29&dl=0

I hope you found this article interesting and would love to hear your thoughts!

Best regards - Thorsten Speil


PS We profit from the different things each of us knows. I encourage everybody to embrace this thinking whenever you meet people that are "different" from you. You are different, too, aren't you? There are way too many people in the world today that try to gain power themselves by dividing people into "us" and "them", using anger, hate and separation. The future will be terrible if we bow down to this.



Richard Ng

THIS IS A PERSONAL ACCOUNT

8 个月

As an end user, I am feeling around for the right tools for the right job. Cynefin is the clear choice for the strategic, reaching into the many manifolds of complexity. And Theory of Constraint has served me well for the more tactical projects. May be there is room for middle tier connecting frameworks. Would like to learn from comments on methodologies such as Decalogue.

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Roger James

exploring@computiv: bringing people & systems together

8 个月

Thorsten Speil Before you go further it might be worth recognising that ideas around complexity are locked into an abstraction built around a common set of principles/behaviours and corresponding there is no absolutism - no unitary definition or categorical right or wrong as to what is complexity. It is an odd situation and a platform for circular arguments (as evident in Pfl?ging) which just lead no-where no matter how vehemently asserted. If you are interested Richard Feynman explains the analogous situation in our understanding of energy - a topic I think we all claim to understand 'as real' "There is a certain quantity, which we call energy, that does not change in the manifold changes which nature undergoes. It is not a description of a mechanism, or anything concrete; it is just a strange fact that we can calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same. It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas". (Feynman - Lectures in Physics) complex

I thought this post I just made would be of interest to those on this post Understand the principles embedded in a complex system?https://bit.ly/3zQgNQP Please engage with me there. I love respectful disagreement - that's the best way to learn. This means to attack my thoughts while not mentioning me. :)

Patrik Lund

Social and environmental risk mitigation

8 个月

Thorsten Speil, the cynefin model is dangerous because it fails to address the errors which people usually make when encountering complexity. Cynefin is even worse than that, because the model supports people to make even bigger and more dangerous errors on the basis of flawed ‘sensemaking’.

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Luiz von Paumgartten

Patent Attorney ?? FOGARTY IP (Partner)

8 个月

IMHO complexity theory often models "causation" commingled with "interpretation," which is inevitable to some degree for any observer, but it does makes causal boundaries less clear ("Pfl?ging argues correctly that aspects of complicated and complex very often appear mixed in a situation."). Overall, Snowden's stuff looks spot on; will check the others too. Thanks, Thorsten Speil!

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