“Success comes from actually really sticking with it… You need a decade to see your impact.” - Anne Wojcicki

Checkout this week's new episode of the #NoLimitsPodcast featuring CEO and Co-Founder, Anne Wojcicki:

On today’s episode, Anne Wojcicki is the CEO of 23andMe. A company she co-founded 12 years ago to help people understand their DNA. Send her company a little bit of your spit, and they can tell you everything from your ancestry to your genetic health. The business, now valued at more than a billion dollars, gets its name from the 23 pairs of chromosomes in a human cell. And Anne, who is the youngest of three sisters, says she quit an impressive job on Wall Street to start the company with the hopes of fixing our broken healthcare system. Here’s her story.

R: Anne Wojcicki welcome to No Limits!

A: Thank you.

R: Thank you for having us to your office. Here in California, in Mountain View California. I just want to describe the office to people we've been sitting here for a few minutes and I've been appreciating our surroundings for example you looked over your shoulder you saw it immediately. The “I’m CEO bitch.”

A: Yeah. My communications team loves that. It's a good reminder.

R: In case anyone didn't know, you just point to that.

A: Exactly. I just you know like every day it's an inspiration. We know who is in charge.

R: The whiteboard. I appreciate that there's some equations, some graphs. And then there's a lovely picture as well.

A: My daughter drew what she wanted me to wear today. It's like a giant fluffy dress.

R: That looks like a ball gown.

A: Yeah it's it looks like reminds me of a cake topping that a 4 year old would imagine.

R: It would go great with your lululemon apparel.

A: Thank you.

R: Every article mentions that you wear lululemon 24/7.

A: Well I realized you know because there was that article about the black turtleneck and then they talk about you know Zuckerberg with his hoodie, and I was like I get lululemon. Like that’s mine, like I always wear shorts. I showed up at a meeting the other day in my shorts and I realized I was like oh it’s not in my office. Maybe it's awkward that I'm in shorts.

R: Well I think you chose well.

A: Thank you.

R: And I hope that they’re sponsoring you in some way.

A: I should you know. We should totally put out a call to action. I’d love to be sponsored. I would love like a monthly box.

R: Lululemon if you’re listening send her a monthly box of workout gear. Also in the office the weights. I appreciate you’ve got your 3 and 5 pound weights.

A:  Want to work out?

R: I don’t know it might throw me off. But I bet it wouldn’t throw you off.

A: It’s for your wrist, you know cause you type all the time. You got to keep your wrist strong.

R: And you bike to work every day.

A: It was pouring today. So I did not bike today which is why I had to drive. It's very, always a bad day when I have to drive sorry.

R: I’m really glad that we’re here. I’m glad we’ve covered all that ground about our surroundings. By the way speaking of our surroundings, the article with your mom on the cover of the daily news star teacher.

A: So my mom in true Wojcicki fashion. She hung that up there.

R: That’s fantastic. She’s awesome, by the way she and I have crossed paths over the years. She’s pretty, pretty cool. So your story for those who aren't necessarily familiar with your story I want to go there in a second but also 23 and Me which is where we are in the 23andMe offices the company that you founded in 2006. FDA approval for the first DNA testing service, you just got approval for the BRCA test.

A: Correct.

R: Big deal. Tell our listeners what 23andMe is.

A: 23 and Me is an opportunity for people to learn about their digital self. So instead of just looking in the mirror and you can see what you look like from the outside, you can actually look at your DNA. And to me your DNA is just like… It's a secret code inside you. It's fascinating. We all have it. It's like slight differences but it tells you about you. So it's a connection to your past. And like where all of your ancestors come from, and and that's a connection to the future as to like… Who are you and you know where are you going - what's in your future. So there's a whole ancestry side which is you know Ancestry Composition so, what parts of the world did your DNA come from. And it's almost always somewhat surprising for people to realize like how many different countries are in their DNA. And then there's the health side which you reference, BRCA. There's a whole opportunity for people to understand what it is that is in their DNA that puts them at risk for different conditions. And the reality is that everyone is at risk for something. And for me the beauty of genetics was always a story of genes and environment. That your genes play a role but the environment plays a role. And if only I knew what my genes said, then I could potentially change my environment and I could actually be healthier. So for me there's like this whole story of optimism like tell me what I can do to be as healthy as possible. And when I think about success of this company long term, it's you know this whole you know term like healthy at 100. I want everyone to aspire to be like I'm not just like you know in a nursing home and like well medicated at 100 like I want to be healthy and doing yoga at 100. And to me that is success.

R: Your family as we were saying a minute ago. Pretty incredible bunch of people. Your dad ran the physics department at Stanford, your mom is a world renowned journalism teacher your sister Susan, now the CEO of YouTube - one of the original Google employees. And your sister Janet is an epidemiologist.  So you’ve got a lot of smart smart people in your blood around you. When you were a kid what did you want to be? 

A: Oh that’s interesting I know we never I never really thought that much about it. My sisters and I were known as kids as the lemon girls because we used to steal our neighbor's lemons and then we would carry them up and down the street and sell them back to the neighbors. So I think like there was something like we always liked business.

R: Yes.

A: I think business I think business and creating was always really interesting to me. I'm really lucky that my parents never put pressure on me to say like oh you have to figure out what you want to be. I always I have a very definitive moment like when I was in kindergarten and my sister was talking about genes and I kept staring at her. I was like but you have shorts on and it was because they were talking about DNA. And that was the first time I ever heard about DNA and I was fascinated. Absolutely fascinating that there's like this thing inside you and you could discover it. So I always loved science. So it is for me. I think we're lucky like we kind of all combine a bit of science and business. You know my sister who's at UCSF like she is this phenomenal like she gets to travel the world and study people, and I think my parents really raised us to just be curious and to problem solve. And I think all of us are in roles where we are constantly problem solving.

R: What then set you on the path to Wall Street? To being this analyst reviewing… By the way I started my career in investment banking and I would probably describe a lot of my childhood similarly. Curiosity was always a really big important part of it. I felt sort of entrepreneurial as a kid I would try and sell stickers door to door. I didn’t have any lemons in the domain so I couldn’t steal them… The stickers were a really bad business by the way.

A: I love stickers. I love scratch and sniff stickers. I actually have a whole collection.

R: Really?

A: I do.

R: What are your favorite scratch and sniff stickers?

A: There's so many there. Like all the soda ones, root beer… I digress.

R: That’s a first. So what set you on this path to becoming an analyst when you had all of this curiosity inside of you?

A: So I didn't know. I grew up I guess I was in an academic environment. I was in college. I didn't know that there were real jobs like I genuinely like. I think back on how naive I was on the job development process and I just like I didn't, like the idea of like being in an office in 9 to 5. It was so interesting me. I remember, I interviewed for jobs. My mom was like just interview for a bunch of stuff and see and I very randomly got this job offer for the Wallenberg family in Sweden doing as an analyst. I had no idea what it was. And I kind of took the job mostly just because I was I wanted to wear Ann Taylor clothing like I thought it would be fun to dress up. I've evolved clearly to my lululemon days. But in some ways like I think when you're young and you don't know I guess one thing I advise people, everything when you're 22 is interesting. Like it doesn't matter what job you take. Just take a job where you're gonna learn something and then keep learning. And the minute you stop learning get a different job, or like switch or but just learn. And I think back on that because I had that mentality. Every job I ever had led to lead you know contributed to who I am today and what I've learned. So in some ways like as an analyst on Wall Street I couldn't have asked for a better training because here I was at 22 and I had this opportunity to study every single healthcare company out there. And I used to tell them all the time I was like I can't believe you pay me to do this, like I would do it for free. I love it so much. And I would stay there and stay there till midnight every night just researching companies like and to have the ability to read about all different kinds of science, and then call the people like call the Nobel Prize winners and like the CEOs of company and just like and learn about it. There’s one CEO when he came in and he was he had a really interesting compound and we just like, with the meeting started at 4:00 and by 11:00 at night he was like oh my god like should we got takeout like I'm starving like we and we've stayed really good friends because I was just like so… I couldn't stop asking questions. I was like oh my god I love this so much. And I think for me I love being an analyst because I just got to learn and I got to ask questions so I always felt like my 10 years on Wall Street was like getting a Ph.D. and then a postdoc like I just learned. And for me the big conclusion that I learned was this was a system that does not reflect what's in my best interest. And I love like in some ways so much of 23 and Me is built on that infrastructure of what I learned that I want to do things in a different way. That I really understood this infrastructure of like the system as it is, is not really out to make me the healthiest person I am. And that's what I want to do. So 23 Me was intentionally set out to be very different than every other company I'd ever researched because I want it to reflect what's in the best interests of the customer, the consumer and and to actually try and help people be healthy.

R: 10 years into being a Wall Street analyst, you’re well compensated for your work. You said yourself you were really enjoying it. How did you know you were ready to walk away from it?

A: so I was really enjoying it but at the same time you know the first couple of years like everything's new and it's super exciting, and it was really fun to go to dinners and parties. But having grown up in a relatively frugal academic family at some point when you see people wasting so much money you know the first couple of times like oh so fun we're drinking this like 500 dollar bottle wine. Like it's amazing. And then when you start to recognize like that's the norm, it really disturbed me. And so I started volunteering in hospitals at night. So I started volunteering in Bellevue in New York and then at San Francisco General when I was back out here. And I just realized like, it was almost my way of cleansing. Like I would go and spend my days you know making money off sick people frankly like I can read a report. My sister would give a talk about obesity in the coming crisis. And then I would give a talk about obesity. I was like oh obesity is like the ultimate moneymaking opportunity.

R: There’s opportunity.

A: I was like these people don't just get sick and die like these people they get heart disease, and diabetes, and diabetic foot ulcers like ca-ching ca-ching ca-ching. And people would look at me like oh you're so evil and so then I would work in the hospital at night. And I loved the patient interaction. And you would see these people who are are buying into hope of the system like they really, like they’re sick or their kids are sick and they're like they want hope, they want to believe so badly and then it was. And then you have these people who were like I'm taking out a third mortgage on my house to try to get this new therapy and it just it crushed me it crushed me to see these people and like these people tearing up and like in the trauma of like losing someone and believing like, they want it you know they want to have a difference in health so badly. And so. So I loved it. You know I loved the research in the element but I also just started to feel like this is a system that was taking advantage of people. And then I did I did have a specific moment where I was in Washington D.C. and it was I was going to a conference about reimbursement. And I walked into this room and it was in one the biggest ballrooms in Washington D.C. and it was this room filled with dark suits. And it was a sea of them. I mean it was just like probably a thousand people and all these people were at this meeting just to figure out how to optimize billing.

R: How to not reimburse people?

A: Not necessarily how to not reimburse, but more to figure out like if you're going to your doctor. Like I just had knee surgery. So how do you bill as many things as possible onto that knee surgery? So how do you optimize it? And there's a whole like you know you look at the entire consulting world McKinsey and all these groups like they focus on how can you bill more for every procedure. And I just realized like this is…Like I'm done. And I really believe like if you're not part of solution you're part of the problem. And I just like it was that moment where I was like the the system's never going to change from within. So many people make money on the inefficiencies of health care. And I felt like that was the end. I was like I'm done. You know, I have spent my time. I know how the system works and I'm much more like my spirit is more of that Robin hood like I now know how the system works. I'm going to try to make a difference and have a change. And I like the one thing my parents also taught us like I have like I'm not like I you know I've ended up in a financially positive situation here. But like, I'm I don't love money. I love the process of building things and making things I'd rather be dirt poor like but doing something that I’m passionate about and love. So I was like I'm out but like I'm going to do everything I can now to change it. And like. And I think back on specific patients who I spent time with. And you know there was one woman who I specifically loved and she was her mom had had you know had a horrible complication in a nursing home because of neglect. And I was there, the person to get her to sign the do not resuscitate form and she ended up dying that night. The mom. And the woman kept saying to me she's like I just don't know what I'm going to do. Like what am I gonna do next Saturday. So like every Saturday I see my mom and I think on that I think about like OK the people were making money and having margin expansion on the nursing homes. And like the result of that was like worse care. So I like I think about those stories all the time for me as like we are going to genuinely help inspire people and make them better advocates for themselves and we're going to try to have a better prevention system so that people can take better care of themselves, and that we are teaching people how to advocate for themselves.

R: When you originally set out to launch 23andMe this is 2006. What did you have in place? How did you raise that first financing for the company?

A: So I think one thing it's one thing I say and when I invest in companies and even we are talking about this philanthropy last night like I invest in people who are passionate. And, cause passionate people know how to just like they're determined. You know most people hear a no and they're like oh well they told me no I can't do it. And I always say like in this building it's utterly unacceptable to ever say like I was told I can't do it or. No I can't do this. So I think for us like we came with a level of passion. And I think it was a well not that it was a well thought out plan but it was an interesting convergence of the genetic technology is getting cheaper. There's a whole social networking world that is just starting, and there's a reality there’s like infrastructure where like you know doctors control you know access to a lot of care. Research is done in such a way that is like only done in institutions. And so in or in pharma companies so how is it that we could potentially you know change a lot. So I think it was a we had a decent idea and I think we had you know founders that were really passionate about the cause.

R: A lot happened between that point and 2013 when the FDA comes along and says no your product does not meet our guidelines.

A:  Right.

R: What happened in that moment? Take us inside of that moment and how important it was for the FDA to give credibility to what you were doing.

A: So I think one thing like, we had always known we had spent you know in the earliest days we used to spend time with former FDA officials debating you know do we need are we regulated. Are we a device are we not a device so we had always we always did our best to try and be engaged. So it's like one of those things that was always a question like in 2013 were you just totally negligent or like were you just like so like Silicon Valley arrogance or you know, were you just not communicating well. And I always argued like we we had the right intentions but we really like I realize now we didn't know how to communicate. So it was a moment it was definitely a shock. You know the first time we you know we got the information. I didn't quite understand what exactly it meant and whether.

R: How was it delivered?

A: We were at a strategy offsite meeting and we got my assistant had sent me a note saying you know the FDA just couriered something to you. My first reaction was like don't sign it! And then I realized it was already delivered. And then I read it you know because we've gotten warning letters in the past. It was like yeah you know this is like that like this is workable like we can figure this out. And slowly over time you know we realize like this was something that we really this was going to be changing like life changing for the company. And we had to. it really it wasn't as much of a pivot for the company in terms of people saying like oh you really pivoted like we didn't pivot what we say we had to just change the approach to actually climbing up this mountain.

R: How did you figure out how to change the approach was it talking to the former FDA officials about what they might recommend or how did you even think that through?

A: So I spent. So we got the letter on a Friday, Monday, it was made public. And I would say I probably spent Tuesday to Friday in my pajamas at my desk just calling like I called lawyer after lawyer like everyone that we'd ever met in D.C. getting advice. And you know I spent a fair amount to figure out exactly what the right strategy was going to be the most important piece of advice I ever got was from another regulatory team at a pharma company and we pitched you know I went through like here's a situation here's what has to happen. And they said to me like do you wanna just sell this company in two years? I was like absolutely not because there's one strategy like you just want to sell the company and you're out. There's another strategy like if you really care about changing healthcare and you change about like care about the customer experience, just work with the FDA and just do the hard work. And it was honestly the best piece of advice I think that we got because the right… It was always our thing like we don't mind doing the hard work. I just need to like I need to make sure I have everyone aligned and working in the right direction. And so that was sort of the first moment where like OK this is we're just going to we're just going to obey like we're going to just follow like. Tell us what to do, and we will do it. And I think before you know my team, 23andMe is a company full of like really we have a lot of smart people and a lot of people who like to question you know which I can relate to. So we would say like you know if the FDA if they had said like oh you need 20 samples and we're like well statistically do you really need them. Maybe it's just 17. And what we learned is like there's a level. You know you follow. You get their input and that they have a lot of, they have a bigger knowledge base than we do. Just being in our company. And you know the most pivotal thing is we hired Kathy Hibbs who's our Head of Legal and Regulatory and it became so clear to me we did not know how to communicate and that there was just a lot there was a way of communicating and a way of following through and in just in every aspect of what you know the types of clinical validation tests that we were doing, and the in the you know customer comprehension studies it just transformed everything. And it's not that we weren't doing it before. It's just that we understood now what they meant about doing all those types of tests.

R: I think it's a business question that a lot of people face in some way. Where sometimes you have to just follow it to a T, sometimes you have to find a way to go around it. And in this case when regulatory. They're recognizing that you just kind of have to follow it and do it the way it’s set in stone as like frustrating the bureaucracy and red tape might seem.

A: Right.

R: You're better off rather than fighting that battle which is a losing battle. You're better off just going with it once you have full knowledge of what going with it looks like.

A: Right. So I got I got this. You know we have got one piece of advice you know when you go to the FDA or when you go to the DMV, you don't question the fact that you have to take a little ticket you wait in line. You're very obedient when they ask you to take a vision test. You don't say oh I just got my eyes checked I don't need it like you do it. And I think that there was a level of compliance that you know the FDA needs for scale that like it just totally makes sense like there's a number of things that you just actually have to do. And I think one thing also just to note is that you know most other diagnostics today are not regulated by the FDA. and so they're regulated by the Center for Medicare Services, CMS as a laboratory developed test. So that's also part like we have other companies that are out there right now that are not regulated by the FDA, but they're regulated by as an LDT because their physician-ordered. And so I think that's where there's like also some confusion in the marketplace about standards. And I think that's one thing I'm I'm happy like we've now we've gone through the FDA path. I see what a difference in testing and rigor that it has. I feel really good I can say like when I went through you know user testing, they can be you know 10 to 20 rounds of user testing before I actually know I got the kind of comprehension that we need. So there is a level where I feel really good like I am a direct to consumer product and I've proven it. Like I've proven that there can be comprehension and so there's a bunch of other tests that are out there that are not regulated by the FDA. And I think that's where there's some confusion out there. I think for the consumer about exactly what what is an FDA approved and what's not FDA approved.

R: What’s the toughest lesson for you along the way?

A: The toughest lesson. I think that there’s not, you know I think in some ways one of the main things I learned like is throughout this company, success is about determination. There's very few cases where there's overnight success. And you know there's a lot of times where people in the company would be like oh we have to make you know that killer product, that killer product, that killer product. And then there's a one point where I was like you guys we have it. And I think that's part of it is like everyone knowing just like you work. We've been working on you know all of our approvals, like BRCA for me was one like we've worked on this for years. So sometimes like it just takes a lot of work to get something done. And it's one thing I advise to entrepreneurs to is like you have to stick with it. Success comes from actually like, really sticking with it. And you know one thing I love is that we have a big education initiative like one of our mantras is “anyone can be a scientist.” And you know we say these things like we say it all the time. I have no idea if there's an impact. But having done this now for 10, 12 years I love I see kids in Ph.D. programs who are like because of you I saw you on you know on a channel or on a radio or something because of you like I believed I could do it. And now I'm in a Ph.D. program at MIT - like seeing the impact of what you do is is amazing. It's so rewarding but you only get that when you really stick with it. And I always advise like if people are passionate about something, you need a decade to see your impact. And so like now I can see the impact of like what we have done and that's even much more motivating. But like it really is important to stick through it. So I think that's one of the things that's been the most important for me to learn. And in Silicon Valley where everyone wants to like you know the next WhatsApp program of 17 people five billion dollars you know like the reality for the most of us we actually have to work hard.

R: Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more with that. One thing I wanted to ask you about is Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. I know you have previously been supportive of her. Does the news in any way change that for you - do you think that you in some way were duped by her what do you think it says about this environment that we’re in?

A: Well I always try to be supportive of people as people. But we never you know there was a lot of internal questioning, we always had about you know data like we're a very data driven company and so people you know like I love like, we debate diets and vitamins and all this stuff all the time. So when there's a new technology out like I love people who are passionate and supportive and you know especially other women in this industry like I love it. But the company has always like well we want the data. We're always open minded. But like show us the data. And I think that was one. You know there was always that advice I gave her is like you got to publish the data like like 23andMe. We had no, you had no backbone if we hadn't been publishing you know we have over 100 publications today. So we, it doesn't matter if I'm like selling a big idea if I can't support it. So we've always had that philosophy. And she had all of her reasons why she wasn't publishing. But the reality for me is like we like I'm supportive of people but there was always a lack of data for us to know exactly what is this.

R: Mhm. Worst advice you’ve received along the career.

A: Oh my worst advice. Oh so many. I think the worst. You know in some ways like there's so many I don't have a specific advice. Actually you know the worst advice usually is when I have a gut instinct and to be honest it's usually around people like I want to see someone's not right in the role and I have this instinct and someone talks me out of it. I think like as a leader I have a vision. I realize now this like part of going about time back to the very beginning part of my “I'm CEO bitch” is like I have a strong vision and like and I know I actually have the best instinct here. I love getting input from other people and I always do. I'm totally open to changing my mind. But like I'm actually now in charge. And when other people try to overly, I love the influence but I guess I stand up like I stand strong with my opinions. Much better. So in the past when people I think overly influenced it was not good.

R: Anne Wojcicki Thank you so much for this conversation.

A: Thank you so much it was so fun.

A: You have to wear lululemon next time.

R: I will.

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