Automated Economy Series (1/N) Automated Economy: Fundamentals, Key Attributes, and What the future holds (feat. David Kramer)
In this conversation, David Kramer & Krish discuss the concept of automated economy and its key attributes: hyper-automation, personalization, and data-driven decisions. Kramer explains how automation has evolved over time and how hyper-automation is now interconnected across various domains. Kramer emphasizes the importance of digital enablement in adapting to the automated economy and highlights the role of trust and privacy in personalization. Kramer also discusses the impact of data-driven decisions and the future of technology.
Kramer goes on to address the concerns and reactions to these changes and emphasizes the need to embrace and adapt to the evolving technological landscape. The conversation explores the concept of the automated economy and how individuals can navigate and embrace it. It emphasizes the importance of event horizons, such as the gas engine and the internet, which have revolutionized society. The upcoming event horizon of the man-machine interface and AI is discussed as a significant shift. The conversation also addresses the fear of automation and encourages individuals to adopt automation and find abundance in learning and embracing new technologies. It highlights the importance of being artistic and passionate about one's work and the value of failing fast and trying different things.
The conversation concludes by emphasizing the power of choice in shaping the future of the automated economy.?
Transcript
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (00:06.326)
Hey everybody, welcome to Snowpal Software Development and Architecture podcast. We have a very special guest with us today. We have Kramer, who's the founder and chief product officer of Cooperative Computing. Kramer is dedicated to transforming lives and is a father of nine, still married to the wonderful girl and lives in Dallas, Texas. Kramer, thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.
David Kramer (00:30.046)
Krish, it's fantastic to be here. I'm really excited about this topic, so.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (00:34.098)
Awesome, I cannot wait to get started myself. So folks, today we are gonna be talking about automated economy. We've covered a fair range of topics in the last several weeks. This one I'm very excited about because I know even lesser about, and I'm looking forward to learning plenty about it, have lots of questions, I'm sure you do as well. So without further ado, let's get started. I'm just gonna start with the simple question and then we'll dig deeper, Kramer. For a lot of firsts.
who think we know a little bit about this, but not exactly the phrasing of these two words. If you could just tell us what is automated economy.
David Kramer (01:13.35)
Yeah, 100%. So I think as we go through life, things are happening around us and we don't necessarily always observe them in their totality. And one of those things that has slowly but surely happened across the ages is economic transformation. That economic transformation is driven by the consumer's needs and those consumer's needs push up into what happens in those economic situations. So...
We started out with the trading of goats and fish and cattle, and that was cumbersome. So we moved from that into a fiat economy. And that fiat economy allowed us to exchange cash. And that cash was backed by something, right? And as we have accelerated into what we have today, it is the automated economy that we live in right now. So the components of those automated economy we can start to see around us, even though we don't call them that.
A good example is this, we quite often share this with the strategic people that we advise. If you look at Airbnb and you look at it compared to the top three hotel chains, Airbnb is almost three times the size of those hotel chains. If you look at Tesla and where it's at against the traditional car manufacturers, and while you say Tesla is an EV and Airbnb as an asset management company, what they've learned to do...
is connect into and hyper accelerate themselves into an automated economy. The automated economy has some really key attributes to it. Number one, it's hyper automated. The ability for you to go get an Airbnb, make two clicks or an Uber, or the ability for you to go buy Tesla, which is totally online. The whole purchase process has been accelerated through digital enablement.
these hyper-automated companies are now making up what we exposed as the automated economy. And the world is gonna continue to accelerate and the rapid adoption of how we get things shipped to our home, and we don't even think about it anymore. Why? Because the brands are starting to say, I'm gonna take advantage of what you want and what you seek in that automation to give you the maximum benefit to keep you sticky with me. And so the automated economy is
David Kramer (03:36.338)
those three key things. It's hyper-automated, it's hyper-personalized. It knows you better than you know yourself, right? And it's built off of data-driven decisions. Those three things are making the people in the hyper-automated economy, those companies, and the consumers of those more and more sticky to that automated economy. So if you look at those three things, you look at the brands that you use, the services that you use.
the way that you use them, you'll see that they're driven by those three things that catapult that hyper automation.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (04:12.906)
This is all, that couldn't have been a better stat. This is me sitting in a class and learning as we go. This is awesome. So you mentioned three points, hyper automation, personalization and data-driven. I'm just grabbing notes as I go. So sorry if you heard some sound of keyboard here. So I wanna talk about each of those. And you took some great examples as well, Airbnb and Tesla. But before we go, I'm gonna ask a few seemingly random questions, but hopefully they'll all connect towards then. At least that's my hope.
David Kramer (04:27.902)
100%.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (04:42.486)
The first question is there has always been automation, right? We've had automation over the years. It's, you know, it's changed, it's improved, but going back to the days of, you know, say Henry Ford and automation of cars and how many vehicles you could make, there has been automation and we've just improved upon that automation. So does that mean my very first question, Kramer, is this a new term to something that has always been there or is this new because there are certain aspects to this that make it different?
from the types of automations we've had over the years.
David Kramer (05:15.386)
I think that is an excellent question, one that I think enables us to explore this opportunity about what does hyper automation do for the automated economy. So automation in the past was very localized and it transcribed to a very specific task, whether that was in manufacturing or any form of robotics where automation made a lot of sense for what we were trying to do at scale or at mass. What's occurring in today's world is the automation now is no longer localized to a
entity transaction. So hyper automation, we work with a company right now that company allows you to interconnect supply chains across 140 different domains, 140 domains to allow that transaction all the way from a supplier who's making a bolt that has to show up on a inventory list into the raw goods for manufacturing of a car. And then that car is
finished goods for a part that goes into the finished goods for the car. What is changing now in this automation is it's no longer localized to just a single entity. It's now grown wings and spiderwebs that operate much like our brains do. So the patterns of this hyper automation are interconnected states across dimensions of both the supply chains that are connected, the banking systems that fund those supply chains.
all of the artifacts that go along with those. So hyper automation is driving this huge, huge interconnectedness that's breaking down silos very, very quickly. That is the difference in that automation stream.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (06:54.111)
Okay.
So I'm gonna ask some more questions about that just so I capture the essence of it, right? So there has been automation, right? You agree that there has been automation over the years. Based on your summary there, Kramer, if I took one or two things out of it, would hyper automation be the crux of that difference? Did I get that correct?
David Kramer (07:16.614)
Yeah, it is the hyper automation and the spider web of that hyper automation where you're no longer just localized to a single instance of what the automator is doing. It's now interconnected across other automators in a, in a huge spectrum of automation that's now connecting all that together in millisecond transactions.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (07:38.678)
Wow, okay, brilliant, right? So in that case, as somebody who, another question here, right? As somebody who understands automation and how things have been automated over the years, but somebody who's not particularly aware or as cognizant of this connection, the connectivity between the automation that you mentioned here, the spiderweb, how do we react to it? Like, what do we need to do? How do we need to do things any differently than how we may have done it in the past?
David Kramer (08:07.123)
That's a great example. One of the things that we do as a company at Cooperative Computing, we focus on what we call digital enablement, okay? And we're often asked, what does digital enablement mean? Right, so we're trying to digitally enable you to accelerate into this automated economy. Well, here's what this means. So if you look at the future of economic transactions, financial transactions, right? Before you would have to go into a bank,
establish yourself into that banking system. That banking system then was a moderator of you into other banking transactions. And the KYC function, the who you are, was autonomous to the bank, but didn't move outside that bank very well. So you had to go sign up for another service, maybe Bill Trust or Bill Pay. And then you had to sign up for another service. So what you have to learn to do now to take advantage of this process and what we do with digital enablement is,
we map out your whole end-to-end strategy for growth. Let's say that you're a entrepreneur and let's say you figured out how to make Bundt cakes. There is a Bundt cake company here in Dallas called Nothing Bundt Cakes, absolutely phenomenal food. And that company has established the storefront and that storefront found growth.
And that storefront wanted to actually do what you do, which is you franchise to multiple storefronts. Well, more important than the franchising to multiple storefronts is, how do I hook up to a supply chain that delivers the experience that I get from the store of that fantastic food without waiting in line and get to my doorstep in an integrated fashion? And how do you think about that as that entrepreneur? So,
As we set down with that entrepreneur and we go through that whole end to end process, the 3PL, the ability to get the product in and out of that 3PL in a timely fashion, that's measured in hours by the way, right? Hours, it's gotta move in and out, right? And then if I have to have a distribution set up that goes across five states instead of three cities, what do I have to do? I've gotta have raw materials that go into these different distribution locations so that I can.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (10:09.166)
Right.
David Kramer (10:23.098)
manufacture those bundt cakes at the same quality. All of the points that connect it now have to be materialized. And in the world that we live in, everything is built twice. Once we build it in our minds and conceive it. The second building of it is when we take our hands and craft what our minds and our vision has seen and make it real. Digital enablement allows you to take all those points and turn them into reality. And we live in the age of Superman. The...
possibilities and the understanding of those, we call this the art of possible, is so fastly, it's changing so quickly that if you don't have someone who's looking at that and playing with that and in that all the time, 24 hours a day, then you struggle as a company to take advantage of that. So what do you have to do specific to what you said to do it? You've gotta understand all the points.
And you've got to have someone who knows what those look like. You've got to remove the risk of someone guessing, because your investments in those have to be elegantly placed on the table and then executed fairly flawlessly. So we've done this digital enablement now with 200 customers. And out of that 200 customers, we've gotten a 99% acceleration success rate. And so it's super important that you understand where are those points that that.
Connectedness for the hyper automation and the personalization which is super crucial to the future Execute in your actual process of being an entrepreneur to take advantage of
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (12:02.642)
Lovely. I'm trying to draw this. I'm going to convince you to come back, hopefully, because I'm trying to draw this diagram in my mind. And I feel like next time we do this, we draw this out, it'll actually, you know, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words because I'm trying to imagine the connectivity here. So you mentioned localization and your example here is perfect. You mentioned a number of different touch points. Each of them being automated is important, but am I correct in saying, Kramer, that you're also stressing the importance of all of them being automated?
in a collective manner, right? It's one thing for each item to be automated. It's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy or trivial, but when you bring all of these touch points and need to automate them, there is a lot of different new challenges that we may have to address there, right?
David Kramer (12:34.683)
Yes.
David Kramer (12:45.086)
It's hyper automation, yes. And the traditional business owner doesn't understand the art of possible and their thought leadership has been built around silos. You went to college, they taught you about the HR department, the IT department, the finance department. Now you've got to collectively take those things, remove the silos, because all of this is now going to have to integrate. And it's got to integrate at speeds that before.
were unknown to us. We didn't really think about the fact it's 27 milliseconds for a NASDAQ trade and that they understood. But now it's 27 milliseconds to tell a 3PL that I've got to go pick it and the robot's got to go grab it off the shelf, put it in the package, get it in the car that's going to show up in the next five minutes. That car's got to make it a mile and a half. All of that has to be in the calculation mindset of that hyper connectedness.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (13:39.198)
Okay, that's very nice, right? Let me go to the second point that you mentioned earlier, personalization. We read a lot about this as part of, you also mentioned out of the three attributes, the second one is personalization. When you go use a service, use a product, as long as it speaks to you, it speaks to you and you're able to make a connection, then you're gonna be more loyal to using that product or service. So personalization, again, much like automation has been around a while,
So what about this attribute is different when it's in the context of automated economy?
David Kramer (14:14.438)
And this is really, I think probably the biggest point out of all three, data-driven decisions matters, but this is who we are now today. And with nine children, I get a chance to watch a wide spectrum of what occurs. My oldest child is 42, my youngest child is 23. And so I get to see a whole spectrum of what they consider their norms, right? And then my grandchildren, as you can imagine, I have a bunch of those.
and they're all the way from two years old all the way up to 21 years old. Now, personalization when you and I entered the world was I want to actually go to the restaurant that knows me. So I go to the same place or I want to go shop and get my hair cut. I want that feeling that it's personal to how I operate. And then we started to work in the digital world and the digital world started to know us without us telling it to know us.
And so Amazon started recommending things to us and it started to understand us. In the first generation, it looked at things in cohorts and it said, okay, in cohort analytics, we understand that if I am a specific cohort, I'm probably gonna want these other things inside that cohort class. But that isn't enough for us anymore. My grandson, he is 11.
He went to Etsy. He flips, he starts looking for something. And Etsy doesn't recognize what it is that he's intending to want versus what he's asking for. And he's frustrated after thumbing through it a couple of times. So he goes over to another site, right? This site happens to be called Sheen. And in two seconds, it's understood what he's really asking for because it is hyper personalized who he is. Why?
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (16:09.71)
Oh.
David Kramer (16:09.986)
it interconnected other things around him. It's hooked up to his TikTok. I know what videos he likes. I watch what he's doing. Now, this whole world of hyper-personalization is now being grabbed and owned by us. We get to say what information across which domains do we want to share and connect. And as we permit them, we're learning to tweak our own personalized experience. And that's new for us.
We used to have Facebook steal it from us and Amazon steal it from us. And now the new world is I get to block or permit it. And the wiser we get, the more we understand what to let in because it gives us a better outcome. I am a sports person, but my sports are in the range of basketball and football. I'm not a golfer. So whenever I see sports things start to show up, I get to tweak what those look like in the current world.
I am personalizing them to me. Those personalization characteristics are now being picked up by other systems asking me is it okay if I see them? 100% it is because you're something I may want, a specific shoe, a specific type of clothing. So I've begun to curate my personalization experience. I showed up the other day at a restaurant that I frequent quite often, and they have interconnected their
menu with me. And when I showed up and sat down, I have a digital tablet, it said, we see that you like eggs. I'm a big egg fanatic. And it offered me three egg dishes and it did so at 2 p.m. in the afternoon. Why? It knows who I am. We're about to enter an age where the personalization aspect of what you are and the digital assistant is going to overcome the
David Kramer (18:05.894)
Why? Because what you want is to interact and get what you want. That hyper-personalization is starting to be enabled now by the very specific transactional webs that are being put together through hyper-automation. Those two are tightly coupled.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (18:22.479)
You know, through this video, you probably can't see my eyes light up, but I did actually a couple of times in your answers. I'll tell you why, because there are two examples you took. There are lovely examples because, you know, they are very relatable examples. I want to dig deeper into each of those examples. The first one you took was when your grandson was shopping at Etsy, looking to make a purchase, but the platform did not, you know, as an example, right? Just as an example. It didn't understand.
David Kramer (18:47.422)
That's right.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (18:49.662)
what the person was looking for. So they switch the user, consumer now goes to another place. Now here, price was not, you didn't mention price. So the person was not looking for to purchase something at the cheapest cost, right? What they were looking for is, hey, do you know what I'm looking for? With me not explicitly telling you every single time that that's what I've come here to look for. When I enter the store, so I wanna take a restaurant example, but I wanna first go into this particular example. So, you know, over the years we were like, hey, the website needs to, the e-commerce site needs to look very
David Kramer (18:57.51)
Not at all.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (19:19.342)
cool, it needs to be attractive, the color choices, the fonts, all of them, the price, none of that seems to matter. Suddenly in that example, what matters is, how much do I know Kramer? Even if everything else, you know, from a technology standpoint, right, I'm not saying you have to build pages that are not looking attractive or nicer, but I think as an engineer, I want to digest the fact that the CSS part perhaps did not make all the difference there, right? What made the difference is the data. So if you want to, I don't want to go to data yet.
David Kramer (19:45.298)
That's right.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (19:49.546)
But your answer sort of is a nice segue to the third point. But let me ask a question. So, and your second example was restaurant. You go into the restaurant, they kind of already know what you want. And that's not because the person at the counter is somebody who, I eat at Potbelly all the time. And it's nice because they understand you, but it's a human understanding you. Here you're talking about machines understanding you, the systems understanding you. So there are two questions I have there. One is,
David Kramer (20:05.999)
100%.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (20:19.574)
It's nice that they know a lot about us so they can support that level of personalization. But the question that's going on, it begs this question. Where do you draw the line of how much do I want somebody else to know about me? Privacy, right? How do you walk that fine line between personalization and data privacy?
David Kramer (20:42.298)
Yeah, there's two key concepts to this. One of them I'm gonna steal from someone I have a lot of trust in at Google. So when we build friendships, we have different levels of friendships. There are certain friends I sit down with that I tell them about all the struggles I'm having at home with my family. And there's some that I sit down with and I talk about all the struggles that I'm having trying to lose weight. And there's some that I sit down and I talk about all the struggles I'm having trying to raise my kids.
to get the best outcomes for their lives. Those trust factors are calculated and presented to us daily as we interact with human beings. And in the past, that was stolen from us in the digital communities we lived in. It was taken from us. The right to have freedom on a platform because I don't pay for it meant that they thought they had the right to all of my data and consuming it however they wanted. What we've started to do now is say,
I want control over how that data gets applied to the entanglement between locations and we're making those choices. For example, I have a FICO score and there are only certain aspects of that FICO score that I'm gonna share with certain credentialed people if I'm buying Bitcoin or if I'm doing asset purchases in an ETF. There's information I wanna share with them that I know is relevant for them to help make decisions for me. So,
This very first concept I call the digital friendship. We are starting to move into a world where we are becoming digital friends with the community that we deal with. And that digital friendship concept is being embraced by Twilio's segment and other product companies are starting to figure out how to make the digital friendship work so it can be mobile and it can be integrated across the communities that you deal with. The second concept.
after digital friendship, right, is how do we interact with that digital friendship in a very personal manner? Before machines made decisions in a very computer vision oriented way, I'm going to say. Okay, the new norm is going to be the way that games operate. And so game theory is the next game theory is going to become massive in the world of how we do things.
David Kramer (23:06.574)
in this digital friendship space. Because game theory understands properties of how you characterize what you're doing and what to do with those. For example, if I am a runner and in my game, I like to run at a fast pace constantly for a long period of time and then slow down and take a pause and do something. The game operations start to understand how you operate inside the game and they start to maximize the stickiness.
to pull you into the game. They want you online in that game 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And they've done this across a wide spectrum all the way from five-year-old all the way up to 60-year-old people. I see them right now in World of Warcraft that I would have never thought. I'm hooked, man. I've been sitting here for 10 hours. So one, this digital friendship.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (23:56.959)
Hehehehehehe
David Kramer (24:02.21)
And then the art of taking that digital friendship and figuring out how to gamify it, those two constructs of hyper-personalization are gonna permeate our lives and remove everything around us other than that digital friendship concept. The future of how we're gonna transact in the future economy will be through digital assistance. And they will be hyper-personalized. They will know you, you will give them your heart. The privacy is up to you now.
and the regulations going into place. Blockchain is a good example. The two things about blockchain that are amazing, amazing is out of the box. It natively understands how to keep transactional permutation consistency. You know, can it be hacked? We'll work through the kinks of all of that. But that block transaction is trustworthy, and that trustworthiness enables me to start to interact with these systems at a different level of autonomy.
because I can go into the backend of a non-blockchain system and change the data record. Once I get it out in a Web 3.0 world, I can't change the data record. There's someone else that's the entrusted transactor of that data record. So as we become digitally personalized and we get our digital friends, as we understand in the world of that digital friendship, this gamification.
as those records stop being privatized to the platforms and publicly enabled onto these massive transaction farms that allow us to not be hindered by the privacy, right? This hyper-personalization is gonna kick in at Mach 5 and data-driven decisions are gonna make us do things that we have real data on that we didn't have access to.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (25:53.586)
Okay, this is great, right? So that was a segregated data driven, but just to recap what you mentioned in my own words, tell me if this makes sense. So there is, you mentioned digital friendship, meaning can I interpret that in layman's terms as, I'm willing to actually share some data with you as a provider. Nobody forced me to go to Facebook and write about my trip to Italy, but I felt like I wanted to write about it. I wanted to share some photos. So that information was volunteered to the company, right?
I want to agree that when you see data privacy, it always seems like somebody's forcibly extorting the data from you, but that may or may not be true. Because a lot of times we find, like you mentioned, you have trust in certain friends and certain respects. So you go talk to them about those items. So you have to find what you're comfortable with. You have to establish the digital friendship. Maybe you're comfortable sharing something on TikTok. Maybe not. Maybe you're comfortable sharing something on Instagram. Maybe not. So you have to make those decisions.
David Kramer (26:33.426)
Correct.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (26:52.978)
as individuals and we share the information which in turn allows those companies to actually curate and make these personalized recommendations to us. I mean is that a reasonable summary of those points?
David Kramer (27:04.99)
And they have to prove trustworthiness because the future is going to be that trustworthiness is going to be the salt and pepper of all of the digital platforms of the future. If you cannot be trustworthy, you will not get the digital friendship. If you don't get the digital friendship, it won't work. That trustworthiness is going to become more and more and we'll feel it every day and we're going to interact with you. So 100% you hit it right on the.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (27:31.822)
Perfect, so the third point that I had some other questions but going to the third point just to complete those three bullets, data driven and you had mentioned online purchases a few examples there. Even examples like you're at the restaurant, they know what you want to eat, at what time you might want to eat that, what are your favorite dishes. So you don't have to make those decisions. And I might even say that even if on that one day Kramer, if you are not thinking about eating eggs as much as you love them, maybe someone telling you that, hey, maybe you want to eat this.
might have actually reminded you of what you may have even liked, even you not knowing it even in a weird way, right? If that makes sense. So like, I think you mentioned at the top of the call, you know, paraphrasing what you said is they know more than you might know about your own self for instance, right? So data-driven to folks who are watching this, whether you're engineers, whether you're product managers, because each of us wants to, has an interest in data, but slightly differently, depending on who you're talking to.
David Kramer (28:06.269)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (28:29.418)
I've had conversations with product managers and product leaders. The way they look at data is different from how I might look at it as a developer. So if you could just speak to be data-driven and also in the context of a software company, like what are some differences between how two people playing two different roles might react to this notion of the data-driven attribute.
David Kramer (28:51.226)
Yeah, and this one here is where the nail in the coffin, I think, comes for what the future is going to actually do for us. So the way we look at data and that word in most constructs, we think of it as a number thing. But our brain and how we operate as a human operates on data that crosses all the boundaries, both verbal, visual, smell, hearing. We ingest this all the time.
and we consider that as humans data. And it's not just the numbers. In fact, the numbers on a real scale of what we process is a very small circle of what matters to us. A color that makes us feel warm because as a kid it had some interaction is data. We're processing that. And as we compute that, it comes to life as we look at websites and we pause for just a moment.
As we look at the beauty of a sunset that matters to us over the Grand Canyon versus over the city of New York, they're both sunsets. But some of us want the sunset over New York more than the sunset over the Grand Canyon. And the engines that are now in place are starting to watch our behaviors. And they're starting to classify that behaviors into data. That is amazing for us because we have done that for centuries since the beginning of
but never called it data-driven decisions. And now, as we start to interact at this next level, that data-driven decision process is gonna change the world and how we interact with it. For example, the very first thing that I watched with the Pro Vision from Apple, the very first person I saw that came back calls me up, he's excited, I got to see this thing, it's so amazing, it's so amazing. Well.
Okay, tell me about it. I didn't get to go. I was working. So he sits down and he's made a video of what he's seen. And he said, Look at the two things that actually happened. And I'm looking at it. And I'm trying to figure out what they are. And he said, Look at the color. It makes things around me. Oh, that's my color. Kramer. That's my color. Yeah, john, that's your color. He loves this weird purple. Okay. Listen to the music that it started to pay.
David Kramer (31:13.278)
because it knows I love music. Oh yeah, that is your music, okay? He's an Adagio, key of C guy, okay? And so it has taken this information that it knows and it started to craft the world that he's living in because of data-driven decisions that have nothing to do with numbers, okay? We're about to walk into universes now where numbers are gonna matter, but more important is the full stack.
And I think Google made the first play. They just released their equivalent to chat GPT, but they said, listen, it's gotta span the whole spectrum. And it's gotta take into its natural core the ability to hear, to see, to smell, to taste, to feel, all of those aspects have to now work inside the models that we operate in for data-driven decisions.
It's gonna be a totally different world that we live in. And our children are gonna be a part of that massive construct as they go to school without needing to go to school. They're gonna sit down, they're gonna get immersed in an environment. It's gonna be totally driven around what they like, what they wanna smell, how they want to feel, how warm is it. All that data-driven processing is gonna come online and we have now the power.
to actually do that in real time for the very first time in the history of mankind. And it's just gonna totally transform what we think of as data-driven decisions.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (32:54.794)
You know, I'm just mesmerized because these questions were not for folks watching. I did not send these questions to Kramer at all. Right. So these answers are so clear. It's, it's unbelievable to me. I'm sitting here and feeling the sunset that you just described to be honest with you. So I have a question about that. And then you mentioned music, a couple of things, right? So data driven and personalization seem like two different points, but they have very much, they have a lot to do with each other. One, you know, helps the other.
So you mentioned Apple's provision. So the music resonated, the colors resonated. Now you are more connected. You're making that commitment to that device and you're gonna offer more data about yourself. Now you're volunteering to providing this data. Now there is more data and then there's gonna be more personalization and then hopefully things get better and better from there. Now that's all the rosy side, which makes complete sense. But there is one thing that
pops up and I think about this when I say it out loud, I'm like, this is great, things are getting smarter and smarter, technology is getting better and better. I'm not gonna use those two words just as yet, the letter that's the first letter in the alphabet A, and then the one that looks like an I, I'm not gonna put them together just as yet, because I wanna save those two that for later, but I wanna understand, okay, what does this mean? Am I...
I'm getting out of college today. I'm just going to have a slight digression here. I'm getting out of college. I'm listening, I'm watching this. This is awesome. This is exciting. This seems very futuristic and it is futuristic. That is the truth. But I'm a little bit worried. I'm a little bit concerned. It's natural human emotions. Do I understand all of this? What does it mean? I'll give you an example before I end this question, Kramer. I talk to people about a lot of the things that change. There are different kinds of people, right? I mean, we're all different and unique.
David Kramer (34:23.933)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (34:49.822)
Some of us are super stoked about some of the things that are happening, right? Very excited, you know, there's a lot of unknowns. There's a lot of things you don't know, but you're still super stoked about what's coming in ahead of us, right? And then there's people like, okay, you know what? Sure, you know, there's all these things happening. Maybe it makes a ton of a difference, maybe it doesn't. And maybe even if it does, is it gonna affect me? I don't know, I'm not gonna worry about it. I don't care, I'm gonna be indifferent to it. And then there's a third.
David Kramer (35:01.219)
You're hyped. Yes. Yep.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (35:19.414)
领英推荐
group of people There are flat out just worried and concerned and scared and not sure what this means I mean, I read an article on New York Times a few weeks ago They talked about you know, South Korea if I remember correctly and it said, you know The the birth rate has declined plummeted and one of the reasons they mentioned was Parents are genuinely worried about the future of their children that are not yet born I'm paraphrasing some of what I read because they're not sure what
David Kramer (35:37.351)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (35:48.182)
what it means for us for jobs and whatnot, right? So what do you, before I go as more specific into these questions, how do you address, if I put these three as three categories of people, Kramer, how do you address each of them?
David Kramer (36:00.154)
Yeah, in fact, this I give a talk about this to some universities here about the, you know, the future of what I'm going to classify as the computer, the machine. You know, the word of our company was CC, Cooperative Computing. The reason that I called it that so long ago was because when I got out of school, I was promised something. I was promised that technology would be so amazing. It would make my life better.
And I'd have all these amazing outcomes from all the technology that was at my fingertips. And I found that most of the time, it just made it different and not better. It wasn't really any easier. It wasn't until we started seeing cloud transform the fact of setting up computers and making it quick. So there's these key concepts, okay? One key concept is this. There are those who make the air that others breathe, and there are those
who breathe the air from others. And you learn to start to be someone who makes the air that other breathe. When your fear goes away and you learn to embrace the reality of what it is, that's the truth of the thing, okay? As a quantum physicist, first truths really matter to me. Let's take the automobile. To a person who first embraced the automobile, looked at it and went, I really like that, right?
Well, what do I like about it? And why am I embracing it? They're giving of themselves over to someone else in the character and care. Cause with a horse, it was personal. I usually groomed it. I usually fed it. I usually rode it. If it didn't ride white, I went and trained it. I did all these things to make the horse mine. And with the car I'm giving over, the quality control.
the fact it's gonna go for 300 miles and not die on me. And I'm putting trust inside someone else's ability to generate a fantastic result, right? Now, that process of making the air that others breathe or breathing other people's air, right? Has two consorts to it, because just like there's evil in mankind, whether we like it or not, it's real, right?
David Kramer (38:20.934)
the machine's gonna start to think and operate more and more like mankind. There will be a construct of that thing that can be bad. And we have to really watch the biases that we're introducing to how those machines think and learn about us, so that those biases do not turn it into the part of us that we don't want to be. Now that's not an easy task, but it's still real.
So the fear that we have, those three categories, right? I really am amazed and I'm in wonder of the amazing things, the abundant thought, right? That lets us adopt it quickly, are gonna come from people that are able to embrace the change and manage the risk of that change in the way that they personally interact with it. There's gonna be a massive quantity of people that do that well.
The second are those that are the realest, right? I expected more out of it than what I got. I'm a little grumpy, right? Your second classification of, technically it's gonna function the way I want it to, but I'm not as amazed as what someone else is. And then the third person that's fearful of it, right? That fearfulness is probably a categorization of things that are seen through the eyes of others until they embrace it.
So, you know, that digital friendship that I said was so important is gonna have to live at every level of this future digital world that we live in. Because I'm not gonna trust a autonomous babysitter to my two-year-old daughter that I don't think has got the controls in place to not harm my two-year-old daughter that will do what's best for my two-year-old daughter. And out of those three people, one will say,
I'm so glad that I have this autonomous person taking care of it because this person can react faster than I can, can administer care in a much better fashion than I can, can understand things in the environment and hear stuff better than I can. The extreme end of that is someone who says, I have no idea what's running through the mind of that entity that's in my house, and it could go nuts and just crush my child, right? So we will react.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (40:42.911)
Right.
David Kramer (40:45.502)
that the same way we react to mankind in the world we live in today. I think machines are going to force us to start to look at humanity as a single entity and start to think of the machines as a single entity and as we start to evolve through that process as mankind living on one side and starting to adopt the other side.
it's going to become more and more a part of us learning how to adapt to what is going to become you know a thousand times faster smarter more efficient more effective at things than we are other than the certain core spiritual aspects that make humankind what humankind should be whenever we stop worrying about that circle of you know that outside circle that is
we can't control, we just worry about it, and it gets us down and gets us depressed, right? So in those three aspects, right? As we see our worlds adopting to what's happening, there is a book that talks about the fourth turning. Have you ever read this book? Okay, in the book, it describes curves that mankind has gone through, that it's like the law of gravity. And in those curves,
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (42:01.952)
No.
David Kramer (42:12.138)
are curves that are in cycles where the parent is afraid and the child is not. And then the child is afraid and the parent is not. And as we see our children come through the gauntlet and survive in ways that we never could and become amazing users and consumers of this new space, right, they will overcome the inadequacies of what this is.
by embracing, I think, humankind to pull through, to adopt to what that inadequacy looks like. We cannot do that today because today our inadequacies are against each other. Our religions, our beliefs, our races, all these other things that really don't matter as a species, that will matter tremendously to us as we start to look at this new technology, I think we'll start to embody each other's capability.
as human beings to adopt this technology and begin to adapt that as a species much more effectively, those three barriers will start to get broken down. We're seeing some of that today.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (43:20.114)
So which means if I were somebody who was intimidated, like, you know, worried about these changes, the breadth of these changes coming, you spoke to that, but Amai, can I say that you cannot delay the inevitable, right? Things will change. Just like, you know, cars, when you took the example of horses and cars, I mean, how long could you have argued that...
horse is going to be the only way we would actually transport ourselves. Cars were meant to come, they changed, they now become electric vehicles. So is it fair to say that sometimes, you know, all those exciting things that happen, they're typically outside where, you know, there's this diagram with two circles, right? Big one and a small one. I always refer to that. But everything that's exciting is happening in the tiny circle far, far away. So is it fair to say, Kramer, then whether you fear this or do not fear this, you're going to have to bring...
yourselves to accepting reality and the reality is in the next five or ten years even sooner, but I'm just throwing five to ten years. Things are going to be very, very different from how they were in the last 10 years. Is that a fair thing to say that it's going to be quite different the last decade compared to the next decade compared to the last one?
David Kramer (44:37.15)
I think if you think about the way we measure difference, let's just take that for just a moment and say, what would different look like, right? I think there's gonna be evolutionary things and revolutionary differences. The evolutionary things are gonna be more, there's gonna be a lot of them. The ability for us to have a car that drives us to work, right? It's not a revolution, it'll be an evolution, right?
The number of those things that show up because of what technology's doing is gonna be large and they will be adopted with less fear than the things that are revolutionary. For example, you may find that the best president of the United States is not a man, it is a machine. And our ability to accept that as a society and a species is gonna take a lot of thought.
And we've got to start to think about what do we want to occur? Someone that understands the economy, understands global politics, understands how to be human in the face of all things that are dangerous, understands how to embrace the society that needs the help and the leadership. You know, that may be a second nature to an entity that can operate and understand at a level so much faster than we can that it's better for it to do that.
That thing is revolutionary and not evolutionary. So the world that's gonna be drastically different in five years will have these small evolutionary changes. We will see lots of those happen all over the place. Then we'll start to face in the next 10 to 15 years, the revolutionary change. The frustration that one day I will have because my boss is probably smarter than I am, faster than I am, more elegant than I am.
because my boss is a machine. And it out thinks me, it out calculates, it knows what the budget is. It's able to massively do all this stuff so much quicker than I can, right? And as those digital people start to interact with us, and we have to cooperate with the computers, and we have to become one together, that's gonna come from the children that are five years old today, because they won't think anything about it. They're not gonna be afraid of it.
David Kramer (47:03.458)
And it'll take two generations for the fear from their parents to be dismissed by the adoption of the child that comes back into that second wave or the fourth turning, if you will. And so to directly answer, there's going to be the things that are evolutionary will be a lot. They'll just sneak up on us. One day we had cars. We didn't think about it. One day we had TVs. We didn't think about it. One day we had refrigerators. We didn't think about it, right? And so.
Those things that are what I call event horizons are very few. The gas engine, event horizon. What does event horizon do? It sucks everything into it, everything. And it started with a car, moved to a plane, then went to a train. That gas engine, the combustion engine was an event horizon, okay? The internet was an event horizon. No one asked for it, it just happened. And when it happened,
everything got sucked into it. This next event horizon that's coming up is that man machine interface, what we call AI is an event horizon. We didn't ask for it, it's gonna be here. And everything's gonna get gravitated to it and sucked into it. What we'll see is the next five years, the evolutionary changes, after that will become the huge revolutionary changes. Mankind, I think, has shown an ability to adapt. We'll have to adapt.
as a single species to interact with what will become another species.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (48:38.326)
You know, Kramer, you articulate things so beautifully that if for the next 45 minutes, you told me how economy should not be automated, I would still gladly accept all of them as well without disagreeing because it's just beautifully articulated. It's lovely. So going back to what you were saying there, right? So let's say that the advice is clearly not to be fearful. And I'll add one more thing to what you're saying there, even if it's a slightly different example, but not that different.
David Kramer (48:55.294)
Thank you.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (49:08.234)
You know, GitHub's copilot, for instance, just taking a very specific engineering example. When I talk to developers, there's always this fear, oh, you know what? You know, automation is gonna come get our jobs. Well, it always came to get jobs, but it's almost like the white-collared workforce was not particularly concerned because it did not come after, at least in my interpretation, right, right or wrong. It did not come for your job, so you were like, sure, doesn't matter as much to me, maybe.
David Kramer (49:11.674)
Yes. Yep.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (49:36.102)
Now you have this fear that it's going to come to your job. The reactions are, in my mind, a little bit more profound. It was always coming after jobs. The horse lost its job in that form and shape when the cars came. I don't know how horses feel or think, but if I were a horse, I would have been worried. Are the cars going to replace me? They sure did. I have to find a different purpose. So now when I talk to developers, it's like, oh my god, do I? It was kind of interesting because I almost had to.
David Kramer (49:44.727)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (50:05.186)
convince developers, really good developers, to use something like Co-Pilot because my initial thought was, we're gonna just embrace it like, yeah, sure, there's a better way to do something. Let's give it a look and let's see if we can help us. But it was not, that is not the reaction I saw. You know what I mean? I mean, it's a small sample size. I'm not generalizing it, but I'm just sharing my experience. And then when I said, okay, let's try it. We're gonna try it this week. We're gonna try it for three weeks. We're gonna then decide whether it made a difference or not.
David Kramer (50:21.563)
Yeah, yes.
David Kramer (50:26.116)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (50:33.522)
and then the reactions are very, very different. Now we are able to actually write code faster, better, because a tool is able to help us in being able to do that. So unless you get out of that zone of fear, you're not gonna be able to embrace it. But as you grow older, some of these things become a little bit more clear. I'm not saying age makes you wiser, but I wanna believe it does as I get older. But if I'm graduating today, Kramer, I'm seeing all of this.
I'm excited for the future, but it's natural to be fearful of things you don't exactly understand as well. How do you pretend that I'm grading out of college? It's going to be hard with all the gray hair, but imagine I were grading out of college today. What would your advice be to me to embrace this notion of automation and automated economy and shed all my fears and just be super stoked about marching forward?
David Kramer (51:28.646)
That's a great question. And I'm going to rephrase it or repeat it back to hear it. I'm 21, and I've entered. It's now five years later, and I'm 26. I've watched the world as it processes all the things it's processing, and it's gone through everything. How do I allow myself that thinking of abundance to adopt what it is that it's doing in a way that's meaningful? And how do I make that happen?
so that I don't interrupt myself for what I could take advantage of because of it, right? And I think there's two key considerations that need to be taken by that graduate student, right? Number one, you're now an artisan. We're moving from the age of the tactile into the age where artists are now, all of us have to become more artistic, okay? And why do I say that? So,
when I was in the Air Force we were just introducing the concept of drone pilots and Regular pilots were fearful of drone pilots. Okay, because what am I gonna fly? and so the drone pilot would be operating a cockpit and could operate two or three devices at a time if they were good and so their professional operational capabilities got better and better and better and the
Reality of what they were fearful of was different So they were less concerned about doing a mock 5g turn left Then a pilot would be when he knows that's going to hit my stomach and I might black out So they were able to push forward quicker We have to learn to be those in the next generation of our society and be really good at it. I run a calculator for my quantum mathematics and
That calculator requires me to understand some key principles, but I'm not gonna write those on the whiteboard. I know that looks very cool inside all the movies, but I'm just not gonna do that. And so those that are coming out now, they've gotta learn how to interact with that digital interface and the prompts, the chat GPT queries to get the best response from it.
David Kramer (53:52.05)
they've got to learn how to embrace that technical interface and how to adopt to that technical interface to get the most out of it, because it allows them a freedom to become an artist and a creator at a rate that's 10 or 20 times faster than what they could if they limited the scope of what they're willing to embrace and how they're willing to embrace it. So that one, find abundance in how you learn to do the things.
that accelerate your value. Accelerate your value. Find the value space and accelerate it, okay? And now you can go across domains. If you and I wanted to be a neurologist 15 years ago to learn that, to understand that, to process that, oh my gosh, now that information's at your fingertips. You and I can make really good decisions that we couldn't get you before about how to take care of our health that are real.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (54:45.3)
Right.
David Kramer (54:50.83)
They're not fake, right? And so that graduate student has all that information at their fingertips, and they need to become an artisan of data, information, how to process it to create real human value. We stop worrying about anything more than how we do that and do that effectively.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (55:11.442)
You said two things there, right? Many things, but two things I want to follow up on. Art. Being artistic is important. And it's very, it resonates with me because I love art. I have a lot of respect for folks who can play the music, who can draw, who are creative. I go to the Reston Arts Festival diligently every single year without missing it. I talk to a lot of the artists. It's very close to my heart for many reasons. One being, I have no such skill. Like zero, right? If I, if there was no engineering, no software.
they'll out be in big trouble, right? So I have a lot of respect, you know, for art. And I actually did a podcast not a while ago, Kramer, where I spoke to code also being art, right? I look at code because that's the only thing I know how to create, how that is art, because there is beauty in how you write what you write. The fact that it doesn't look so pretty the next day and you come back and you're like, oh my God, who wrote this? And then you do a get blame and it says you wrote it. You're like, no, I need to do this better. And you improve upon it as a person, right? Because you want to...
You know appease yourself and then be feel good about what you did art being artistic is important But being artistic and sorry all the artists because I again I'm not an artist But I'm just going to use that loosely believing that I have some skills in encoding treating it as an art That means you have to love what you do right unless you feel strongly about it like when you're talking about this topic Your energy and your interest in your passion towards the topic cannot be hidden
David Kramer (56:31.262)
Yeah, it's a great point.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (56:39.806)
right? It just cannot be hidden. So does that mean it's stating the obvious, but to make all of this happen as a fresh graduate, I need to find my calling. I don't want to say one thing before I want you to speak to your thoughts on it, Kramer is I loved Anthony Bourdain. I sorely miss that Anthony Bourdain is not around. It's something I still cannot come to terms with. And he said in one of the episodes that he found his calling when he was like 44 or something like that, right? Which means
David Kramer (56:57.35)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (57:08.586)
somebody who's brilliant at what they do may not have found their calling till 44. So the question I have is everything is an art. We need to respect what we do. We need to enjoy what we do. Otherwise we're not gonna be able to do it well. And we have to find our calling. All of this seems very complicated. How do I navigate this?
David Kramer (57:29.486)
And I think the thing that you brought out is really important for us to understand, right? Which is find my calling and how do I interpret that I found my calling is a very challenging thing I think today because of the options that we have in front of us, right? The number of things that we can capably do have gone exponentially up from where it was a hundred years ago. So one
how do you navigate finding your calling? We have this construct that there's three key things that have happened in our world. One, thought leadership has not kept up with how fast the world is changing. Number two, the art of possible has accelerated at a rate it's never been at before, so we struggle to keep up with the art of possible. But number three is the risk of failing through testing has gone down and we've missed it.
So in the old days, if you wanted to stand up a database and an API and all these other things, you had to go get a server. You had to stick it in a computer, stick it under your desk and power it up and get the monitor working, yada, yada. Now you click a few buttons and poof, it's up in the cloud. And then you click another few buttons with open source and poof, it's compiled. And then the next thing you do is you wire it up using, if you're on AWS, you just use AWS application that actually deploys all the components for it.
you got a mobile app. So the art of testing quickly and failing fast has gone up a thousand. It's you can test things you've never thought of before really quickly and you can now test what do I like to do? What do I want to do? What do I want to be responsible for and enjoy being responsible for? So your key construct of
What is it that we find that we love, and how do we find it and love it? Test many things as fast as you can. Write a book, publish it on Amazon. You could write the book with ChatGPT in probably two days. You can tweak it 10 times. You can find an editor right now in Amazon's online editorial services. You can publish it, and you may find out you just made a million dollars. Because all you gotta do is sell 300, you know.
David Kramer (59:55.706)
Let's just say you sell 10,000 copies at 10 bucks a piece You did something that you would have never thought of in your wildest dream and it would have taken you 180 hours You couldn't do that before try it next try cooking right try going out into Uh space and thinking about things that you may want to do out in space There are now ways that you can do that online You have unlimited risk To try thousands of things
until you find the right one. My oldest son, I put him through Oracle school. He gets all the way, three quarters of the way through, it gets to the end and decides this ain't for me. Got it. Then he goes to school to be a nurse. Gets about two semesters into that, decides that ain't for me. Got it. Then he goes to recruiting, which I would shoot myself in the head if I had to be a recruiter. That's an amazing job. And he's amazing at what he does in
But he did it fast. He did it quick. Now you can do that three, you know, four times quicker than you could have because of the ability to do that in these worlds that we live in now. So, fail fast. Understand what you love quickly is so crucial so that you can be passionate about it and it becomes a part of your life instead of a job.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:01:18.462)
I wish I got this advice two decades ago. I wish you had spoken to me two decades ago Kramer because it would have made a ton of a difference. So anyone watching this today, I think this is amazing. Fail fast and do as many things as you can is actually and your examples were lovely as well. I mean unsurprisingly so right. I'm just going to add a couple of more things for folks who are watching it from you know different parts of the world not just the US for instance because you
was born and raised in India. I was very young when I moved here. So I've lived in the U.S. most of my life, but still there are things, you know, again, they say when you migrate, time stops. So my, you know, I'm gonna speak to India when I left it, which is gonna be clearly wrong, but I'm just gonna say it regardless. You know, when you grow up, it's not like we were given very many choices. I'm not blaming anybody, but it was almost like, yep, you're gonna go do engineering, or you're gonna be a doctor, or one of these things. You had to pick from one of these three things, right? There was not that many things.
And I'm not saying I had a lot of other skills that I could have chosen to be a chef or an artist, but you never had those, you never asked yourself, you never paused to ask yourself, do I wanna do what I'm doing? Because I studied sales and marketing for a number of years alongside Engineering Gremor. And then when I'm starting to sell the products that we are making at Snowpal, I've realized that it's...
not it's quite detached from the readings from the learnings because when you do it practically it's very different right it's not like reading a book and it's great it sounds awesome but when you go to execute it it's a lot more challenging it's very differently challenging so right so i want to reiterate just stress even in a louder voice and just not a lot of wise meaning because my voice is just loud saying that try as many things as you can try and it's okay to fail as long as you
David Kramer (01:02:45.339)
it different.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:03:06.678)
you feel like you gave it your best. And then you try the next thing, you try the third thing, and you mention your son who was a brilliant recruiter, but it took different professions for that person to recognize what they were going to actually enjoy doing. Now, this might sound, only thing I wanna add is, depending on where you're watching this from, some of this might come across as privilege, if you will, as somebody...
David Kramer (01:03:20.859)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:03:32.066)
who's sitting in a place of privilege, like as people, you know, we've done this a bit, we have some choices when you pick, and you might be wondering, do I have these options available? I want to, I have a couple of thoughts, Kramer, but I just want you to speak to, what if I feel like this is great? I accept what Kramer is saying, I accept, I understand this, but am I, am I, do I have to, am I in a position to be able to do this? What do you, what do you have to say for somebody who-
David Kramer (01:03:40.658)
Yeah, that's a great point.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:04:00.211)
might be in those situations.
David Kramer (01:04:02.618)
Yeah, and this is an excellent point. I think this is, I take a bunch of teenage kids through this program that I do every year that allows them to see that it doesn't matter where you come from, it only matters where you want to go. Right? And we live in a world right now. I would tell you that if you walked out into any population we're at in the continental United States, the cell phone is in the hand.
of almost everyone, of every nature you can think of, all the way to the guy living on the side of the street quite often. We have in our hands the most powerful computer that we could have ever dreamt of 15, 20 years ago. And so there is nothing, nothing anymore stopping us because all the things that we talked about today are present in the palm of your hand.
So there's only one thing that will stop you from that exploration is which button you choose. Do you choose the chat GPT button and start interacting with the smartest entity in the world right now? Or do you choose the Netflix button? There's a time for that. Or do you choose the Reddit button or Instagram button, right? So you have choices at the palm of your hand to accelerate who you are.
in a way that you never have before, regardless of religion, gender, race, or tribe. None of those matter anymore. Now, there are certain places that are being devastated right now, and that devastation hurts us. Every one of us should be pained by that devastation. But outside of those, we have in our hand the ability to build our own world and see it and play with it.
very, very quickly in ways we never could have ever before.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:06:02.818)
So the choice is yours is what you're saying, right? You have to make those decisions. I have a lot more I wanna ask in that regard, but this is a good point to pause because I'm gonna, you know, I have more questions, but I wanna have teasers and I wanna convince Kramer to come back because I have a lot more questions in my mind before other people have me ask questions to ask you.
David Kramer (01:06:05.89)
100% yours. Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:06:27.818)
So we've talked a number of things in terms of, we started, a lot of this relates to automated economy, but a lot of what you recommended, what you've shared Kramer, I wanna say goes also beyond that, because a lot of what you've advised, what you've shared is a lot of it is personal and all of it is applicable to even situations outside the core concept of what we were having this conversation on, right? A lot of them.
to me it's a product, right? Your answers were less applications, more products that I could take those learnings and apply them to the best of my ability to a lot of different things I do, right? That's what I wanna say. Any thoughts before we end this first? I see this as one of many sessions that I wanna somehow drag you into. But any closing thoughts on this session, this conversation before we end this, Kramer?
David Kramer (01:06:59.261)
Yes.
David Kramer (01:07:15.431)
You bet.
David Kramer (01:07:21.998)
I think there's three things we should think of as we end this session. One, the automated economy is here and it's accelerating. Our ability to get access to anything we want that is good for us and wholesome for us is at a rate it's never been before. Two, we can participate in that in a way we never could before. All the way from the simplest and really easy things like taking data and tagging it to the very sophisticated.
creating algorithms the machines are going to use for the future. And number three is the abundance of what we think about and how we embrace this is how this will turn into what mankind sees it as the future. The machines are learning from our input data. And that input data when it's free of fear and it's abundant and it's amazing and full of blessing becomes that. So we want to put that into the system as much as we can.
as purposefully as we can to make certain that we're teaching this newborn child that's coming up what it means to actually live a full and abundant life and do so alongside of us as it becomes a separate species.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:08:37.57)
Thank you so much, Kramer. I'm gonna end this session with that thought. I wanna say thank you very much to Kramer for taking time. But before I hit stop, I wanna say that please folks, and I'm gonna include links so you can check out Cooperative Computing. The website is cooperativecomputing.com. And then if you go to https://www.cooperativecomputing.com/blog/automated-economy/, you'll see an article as well that speaks a lot to.
to some of the conversations we've had in this session here. So I think with that, I'm gonna just end this session. Thank you so much, Kramer. Super appreciate you taking the time.
David Kramer (01:09:16.314)
It was fantastic being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on again at some time. And I think the future is full of the automated economy. Very excited to be here.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:09:29.538)
So thank you.
Cooperative Computing:
LinkedIn: https://www.dhirubhai.net/in/htkramer
Company Website: https://www.cooperativecomputing.com/blog/automated-economy
Snowpal's Products: