"The Silent Killer of Conversation Is Boredom"

Networking can feel like a chore — awkward small talk, dead-end discussions and the ever-present fear of running out of things to say. What if there were a science to having better conversations? On this episode of Get Hired with Andrew Seaman from LinkedIn News , 美国哈佛商学院 professor Alison Wood Brooks joins Andrew to explore the mechanics of great conversations.

Alison, author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves, shares insights on choosing engaging topics, asking better questions and creating meaningful connections — skills that can transform everything from networking events to job interviews.

A transcript of the episode is below. You can listen to the conversation above or on your favorite podcast platform by clicking here.

TRANSCRIPT: "The Silent Killer of Conversation Is Boredom"

Andrew Seaman: We all know the feeling. You're at a networking event, chatting away, and suddenly the conversation runs dry. You've been stuck in small talk for way too long and you can't find a way out. This moment is exactly why so many people dread networking. So today on the show, we're learning about the science of conversation, how to choose topics, ask better questions, and create meaningful connections. Stick around to learn more.

Andrew: From LinkedIn News, this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's editor-at-large for jobs and career development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.

Today I'm joined by Alison Wood Brooks. Alison is an associate professor at Harvard Business School, where she teaches an award-winning MBA course called Talk. You may think that some people are just naturally great conversationalists, but Alison's research shows that excelling in conversation is a learned skill. I know this to be true because I personally am not great at one-on-one conversations. Fortunately, there are tools you can use to have more effective ones and avoid conflict and misunderstandings along the way.

In Alison's popular course, she teaches her students how to navigate discussions by picking the right topics, asking good questions, and finding opportunities to show levity and kindness. And now with the release of her new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves, she's sharing these insights and skills with the world. I kicked off our discussion by asking Alison about her career journey and what inspired her to write this book.

Alison Wood Brooks: I am a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I had this epiphany early on in my career there that I hadn't really, I'd been studying emotions, but I'd really been studying how people talk about their feelings. And I realized that we as a field had not actually studied real conversations between real people at large scale, and there was a huge opportunity to do that.

So I pivoted and started studying not just how people talk about their feelings, but how they talk about everything and developed a course that was very popular and is very popular at HBS, called Talk. And then I realized, well, not everyone's going to be able to take this course.

Andrew: I hear Harvard Business School is a little bit selective.

Alison: It's a little selective and it's not that big. So let's write a book that everyone can get access to because I think this can be helpful to everyone. Conversation is a shockingly tricky environment. It feels like we should be awesome at it because we learn to do it when we're toddlers. We spend our whole life doing it. It feels like it should be second nature to us. It's just something we do.

But when you look under the hood, it's so much more complicated than that and it's almost like an impossible coordination game. And today, I think in our culture, there's so much going on that makes it feel very uncertain, very risky. At least in America and elsewhere, people are feeling very polarized and sort of separate and apart. The Atlantic just wrote a really big cover story calling this the century of aloneness. So in this century of aloneness, I think we are very much trying to figure out how do we interact with each other, how do we connect in ways that feel rewarding and meaningful and like our brains were built to do?

Andrew: The book is structured through the acronym TALK, T-A-L-K. So can you run us through quickly what the acronym is and what those stand for?

Alison: Yeah, so TALK is an acrostic acronym. T stands for topics and how we're choosing and managing topics all the time. A is for asking, ask more questions, ask better questions. L is for levity, and levity are these light sort of sparkly moments in conversation, things that are an antidote to boredom. And K stands for kindness, just relentlessly pushing yourself to think about your partner's needs and how you can help them get what they need.

Andrew: Got it. I think especially with topic, people sometimes, they don't know what to do. So can you tell us a little bit about the idea of choosing a topic?

Alison: Definitely. So one thing that I think can be quite helpful is to realize you're not just picking one topic or a couple of topics. You always have your hand on the steering wheel. You're always sort of navigating and managing these topics. So of course you're going to get it wrong sometimes, but it is important to read your partner's cues. If it seems like this isn't going to be rewarding for them, for you, they don't seem energized by it, then we can pivot and it's okay. You don't have to feel bad about missing the mark, but it is important to pivot quickly to something else.

Another tip that we find in our research to be quite helpful is thinking ahead, even a tiny bit. We've run experiments where we randomly assign people in one group to think of a few topics that you might bring up when the conversation is underway and another group where we don't tell them to prep anything. They just go in and talk normally, spontaneously. A lot of people are very aversive to the idea of thinking ahead about topics. It makes some people think, oh, is this going to make it rigid or feel scripted? Or it's like, oh, I shouldn't have to plan topics. I'm going to know what to talk about.

But when you look at these two groups of people who plan topics and those who don't, people who plan have much more productive conversations, they're more enjoyable, they're less anxious. When you get to that panicky moment where you're like, "Oh, geez, I know I should shift to something else," it's much smoother to do it because you know where to go next, and it's just much more enjoyable and productive. So this is true, even when you just spend 30 seconds thinking ahead about what you might talk about. It helps you remember things that you should ask them. You can push yourself to remember, oh, what did we talk about last time that maybe I need to check in on? It's just topic prep [inaudible 00:06:17].

Andrew: And especially if you're going to, let's say a work event where you don't really know everyone. I hate just starting with, "What do you do?" Because even though it's a go-to question that everyone asks, I think it's kind of boring and every conversation then heads down that same path.

So sometimes I'll mix it up and at one birthday party, I remember I didn't know anyone but my partner at the table and I just said, "Hey, we're saying what our greatest fears are."

Alison: That's so fun.

Andrew: It took people by surprise, but at the end of the night, I don't think anyone at that table told anyone else what they did for a living, and it was just refreshing not having to talk about, "Oh, that's fascinating. So you work on Fifth Avenue," or something like that. It was something new and fresh.

Alison: Totally. There's great heterogeneity and variety in whether people like talking about work outside of work. Now you can just give it a go and see what their energy is like and switch away if it doesn't seem to be working, or like you're saying, you can come prepared with a more interesting topic that helps you go down a path that might seem more fruitful or rewarding for everybody involved.

Andrew: For people who are listening to this, obviously they're interested in growing their career, getting a new job, and obviously they're in situations where they're networking. They probably don't know a lot of the people, they worry that they're just a plant in the corner or standing at a table. So if you were going into that environment where you wanted to get a job or network, how would you prepare for that?

Alison: Okay, so there are so many situations where you're going to be having to talk to strangers. When you're conversing with strangers, it can help to think about topics in this formulation of the topic pyramid because so many of us hate small talk, and at networking events, even in conversational interviews, so many work contexts, it feels like you can get trapped in a small talk loop. The problem isn't with small talk itself, it's that you stay on small topics for too long.

And so we talk about in the book about a pyramid with three layers. The bottom of the pyramid is small talk topics that you could talk about with anybody. It's a very important social ritual. It's a place that you should think of as a treasure hunt or as a launch pad. You have to do it, so lean into it, but don't stay there too long. You should be looking for doorknobs to more interesting rooms.

And the second tier of the pyramid, as you ascend to this pyramid, things get more personalized. You know when you've gotten there because it no longer feels like you're doom spiraling in small talk. It feels more substantive, more meaningful, more connective. And many conversations are destined to stay there in the second layer. And that's great.

The peak of the pyramid, the third layer, is deep talk. We know when we're there, too. It's like only the two of us, Andrew, could talk about this specific thing in this specific way at this specific moment. And many of our conversations, it feels like you're on a search journey to try and find those magical moments when you get to the peak of the pyramid. Not every conversation is destined for the peak, but when you are there, you should appreciate it and maybe acknowledge it and be like, "God, that was so nice. Thank you so much. That really felt special."

And just knowing that every conversation is going up and down the pyramid all the time. You might circle back to a very basic sort of small talky type of topic that's very grounded and relatable, and that's great, but just don't get stuck in the small talk layer for too long.

Andrew: Up next, the art of asking good questions. We'll be right back with Alison Wood Brooks.

Andrew: And we're back with Harvard Business School professor Alison Wood Brooks. When it comes to asking questions, because that's obviously another big part of being in those networking environments, what is your strategy in those situations where maybe the other person is not giving you a lot and you just feel like you're asking over and over again and it's making you uncomfortable?

Alison: Two things. One is maybe you haven't landed on a topic that your partner is actually excited about yet. So one way to wade your way through that is to ask them, "What are you excited about lately?" And just really in any networking situation, I think often many people go in trying to prove themselves, trying to prove how competent they are, how charming they are, like, look at me telling all my stories.

What we find in networking data is the opposite. People who are interested in other people are the ones who come off as the most interesting. So focus on their perspective. What are you excited about? Why are you here? What's on your mind? What are you feeling good about? What are you feeling annoyed about? Rather than, how can I prove to you how smart and funny and qualified I am? It's a pretty profound mindset shift. It's less about self-promotion and more about interest in the people around you.

Andrew: And something I notice sometimes when I'm at business events or networking events, things like that, is that sometimes there are people that get that idea and they want to know everything about you. But then what sometimes I notice, there are people that don't leave space, because I would like to learn about people too, but every time I ask them a question, they turn around and say, "Hey, but actually what about this?" And then they ask me a question instead of answering. I assume that you do have to leave a beat and you have to have that reciprocal relationship in the conversation, right?

Alison: Yeah. In our data when we studied question asking actually, people who ask a lot of questions are better liked, but it doesn't mean that they're better known. So you can imagine if you're sitting in a panel and there's four panelists and a moderator, we really like the moderator because they're asking interesting questions. They're triggering disclosure from other people. But we don't get to know the moderator, we don't get to hear their ideas. They're probably not as memorable to us.

So keeping in mind that primarily your goal number one should be ask more questions and ask better questions, but also, yes, you must balance that with a bit of self-disclosure. Otherwise, you'll be that likable but forgettable person who was asking questions at the networking event.

Andrew: Completely agree. And obviously when you have the L and K of talk, it's levity and kindness. And I don't want to go as in-depth into those because obviously we don't want to give the whole book away, but I really appreciate you including those because as someone who, I hope I'm not a very serious person. I'm serious, I think, when I need to be. But in my family, if there's a funeral, yes, it's sad, but at the same time we sort of joke, "Remember when this happened," because people just feel better.

Alison: Andrew, you are a joy. The very first time I talked to you, your levity was striking to me. It's unique and it makes you very special. I think what a lot of employers are looking for are people who take their work very seriously, but don't take themselves seriously. You're not above finding those moments, those fleeting moments of laughter and joy that are very necessary for people to feel comfortable and safe working together.

And also to not feel bored. We all know that hostility and anger and conflict can derail a conversation or a collaboration. The silent killer of conversation is boredom. People, especially today, our attention is pulled in so many different directions. Our conversations need to be engaging and exciting and have these sort of sparkly moments that pull us in, whether it's from humor and laughter or just from warmth, like, "Hey, you're amazing. Let me give you a compliment. Let's shift to an off the wall topic because it's fun for a little while." You were talking to me about your sweater earlier. That's all really important for us to feel like we know each other, like we're in it together, and like we can sit down and do serious work together.

Andrew: Yes. And also I think that plays into the kindness side because I think levity often allows people to be themselves more and they don't feel as on guard or there's not as much tension.

Alison: Yeah, kindness is the ultimate masterclass. You have to be thinking about your partner, pushing yourself to think about your partner more than yourself.

Andrew: And that actually does bring me to my next question, which is sometimes people just are not going to click. What should you do in those cases? Because I'm guilty sometimes of if I am somewhere where the conversation has tapered out, I don't know where to go, I'll look around and say, "Oh, Bob over there, have you met Bob?" And then I basically pass the buck and hopefully they'll have better luck than I did.

Alison: Yeah. And they might, right? That pair might find a better conversation than you found. And it's totally fine. There are so many people in the world and we're not all a perfect fit for each other, and that's okay. My colleagues have done some research on conversational endings. Almost everyone walks away from a conversation feeling like it didn't end at the right time. So knowing that, you can just end it, be like, "Okay, well this happened. Bye-bye." Right? Just go. It's okay. You might have better luck next time or you can introduce somebody to somebody else standing nearby.

Andrew: And the other thing I want to tack onto this conversation is your chapter on difficult conversations because I think job seekers, people who are having a difficult time in their careers, that's something they deal with a lot, whether they're being turned down, maybe they're in interviews that don't go well. What is your advice for navigating difficult conversations?

Alison: Even conversations that on their surface seem like they should be fun and easy can become difficult at any moment. And usually in every one there's going to be moments that are easy and fluid and you feel connected and things are great and your goals are aligned, and probably also moments where it doesn't feel easy, where there's awkwardness or you confront some sort of substantive difference.

So in those moments, I think two things. One, realizing that it's normal. It doesn't make you a bad colleague, it doesn't make you a bad friend. It doesn't make you a bad person. And number two, being equipped with the skills to confront those difficult moments. My colleagues at Harvard have this amazing research called Receptiveness to Opposing Viewpoints, where they look across thousands and thousands of conversations. The people who are good at managing these difficult moments, what are they saying? What are they doing?

And there's a very concrete recipe that includes repeating back what someone has said to you, acknowledging what they've said. "So what I hear you saying is that you think that abortion is bad because blah," literally just saying it back out loud can be really affirming to the other person, or they can correct what you said and say, "Oh, actually I didn't mean that. I meant this other thing." So acknowledgement.

Affirmation, before you go on to do anything, you have to affirm that person. You have to say, "It makes total sense that you feel this way about this. For a second, let's suspend that and what if we consider this other perspective?" And whether you go on to have this very differing perspective or not, you have to validate them first, to show like, hey, I care about you as a human being, even if we have very differing beliefs.

Andrew: I think that was such a master class in how to handle that. And I always think back to some research that I used to cover when I was a medical reporter called the Family Acceptance Project, and it was about how religious families can have conversations about LGBTQ topics. And like you said, they found that, "Hey, I love you as a son or daughter or person and you love me," they could have that conversation grow from that mutual belief. And it's not going to necessarily not be difficult, but it's a strategic way to navigate that conversation.

Alison: Strategic and skilled, and authentic is a better way to approach it rather than, "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right."

Andrew: And also I think having that conversation in person or over the phone because digital doesn't do nuance. So it's good to get someone on the phone. It's good to maybe go to coffee or something with them and have that conversation because that's where that nuance and that feeling actually lives.

Alison: And it lives there for very clear reasons. On the phone or in person, you are getting more information richness from them. You actually are seeing more of their body language. You're hearing better acoustics of their voice compared to just text, where people start using words like because, therefore, when they're explaining their arguments, and it's very hard to be on the receiving end of that kind of language. And people are less likely to use that language when they're with someone face-to-face.

Andrew: Per my last email.

Alison: Per my last email, let me tell you how it is.

Andrew: And before I let you go, for people who say, I'm still terrified about conversations, what is your best advice for pushing through that anxiety and putting yourself out there to have conversations, start practicing, and really be good at that?

Alison: The first thing I would say to them is, you are not alone. Everyone feels anxious about the social world, about interacting with other people, and it's for good reason. Conversation is an environment that is relentless and cognitively demanding. It's uncertain. You don't know what your partner's going to say and do, and it's really this thing that unfolds very, very quickly. It's the perfect recipe for anxiety. So you're not alone. It's totally normal. Even the best communicators experience a lot of high arousal emotions and stress, and the way that they cope with it is through effort and listening and trying to focus on the other person.

So what you can do is try new strategies, see what works for you, what doesn't. Ask the people around you, "Hey, how's this going? Have you noticed any positive change in me?" Seek their feedback. For my students, I ask them to often record their conversations and listen back to them, which is both mesmerizing and mortifying. So buckle up. But it helps you quite a bit realize what seems to be working for you and what isn't.

Andrew: I think that's a great message. Thank you so much, Alison.

Alison: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. It was a delight. I loved it.

Andrew: That was Alison Wood Brooks, a professor at Harvard Business School and the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves. Before you go, we want to hear from you. Get Hired launched an audience survey to help us understand what you want to hear on this show. You can find a link to the short survey in the show notes for this episode. I'd love it if you could fill it out.

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. The show is produced by Grace Rubin and Emily Reeves. Assaf Gidron engineered our show. Tim Boland mixed our show. We get additional support from Alexandra Kuznietsova and Ali McPherson. Sarah Storm is our senior producer. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Dave Pond is head of production and creative operations. Maya Pope-Chappel is director of content and audience development. Courtney Coupe is head of original programming. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn. And I'm Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.