SCALING UP! H2O PODCAST INTERVIEW: BURSTING NANOBUBBLE MYTHS

Trace Blackmore at the Scaling Up! H2O podcast interviewed John Crisman,?Moleaer’s Senior Water Process Engineer, on the challenges facing wastewater treatment plants and how nanobubbles can help solve them.

Listen to the full podcast, 337 Bursting Nanobubble Myths, Nov. 10, 2023. John’s interview starts at 11:33.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Trace Blackmore

I know you're going to enjoy my next interview. My lab partner today is John Chrisman, senior water process engineer with Moleaer. Welcome, John.

John Crisman

Thank you, Trace. I'm glad to be here and this is going to be a lot of fun today.

Trace Blackmore

We always have fun on the scaling up H2O podcast. So buckle up, the fun is getting ready to start. Well, I'm curious, what does a senior water process engineer do?

John Crisman

Well, Moleaer is a company that is new and we create nanobubbles in situ and nanobubbles are in new technology and my job as water process engineer is to find value within water and wastewater systems that nanobubbles bring.

Trace Blackmore

So we've had a few episodes on nanobubbles, so I'm looking forward to deepen our knowledge of this and we're going to get all into that. Question I have for you, and I'm sure this is probably why a lot of your customers reach out to you is so water scarcity. So a lot of times we really don't realize how scarce our water supply is because we're very fortunate in the United States. We go to the faucet, the water comes out. So hence we must have plenty of water. But that's not what your clients are having to deal with. So what does a typical client call sound like for you?

John Crisman

Well, that's a great lead in, so how I got to Moleaer is completely about water scarcity. So in my experience working as an operator in California, great place for water scarcity, I landed a job in the Central Coast with a special sanitary district and an interesting thing happened. We started having issues with our wastewater treatment plant kind of out of the blue. Kind of timed up with the governor declaring an emergency for the drought and really what it came down to was water scarcity, not the way that most people think. Our wastewater has become a lot more concentrated and people's habits haven't changed, even though they're conserving water. So a lot of those habits are using soaps, surfactants, different types of disinfecting agents, quantum area, ammonium compounds, and all of these things used to have enough dilution. Because of the extra water that was coming in, now we've taken away that water, we still have the same amount of waste and we still have the same amount of chemical products. So a lot of our customers call us because they're having random issues with loss of nitrification in their wastewater treatment process. Odors have increased. Problems with foaming and their anaerobic digesters, and it's totally random. All the engineers look at it, they think everything's running fine, they're operating within their existing parameters and they want to know what they can do about it.

Trace Blackmore

I was just reading about something you just mentioned and it was talking about things that the pandemic have caused. And of course during the pandemic, I think we all learned how dirty we were. We never washed shopping carts before the pandemic and I think we've gotten back to not washing them again by the way. But one of the things that everybody relearned how to do was wash their hands and I don't think anybody ever thought that, OK, we're washing our hands more. We're using more soap. We are having an impact on our wastewater systems.

John Crisman

Yeah, it's very interesting. And in fact, I was preparing my technical paper for the upcoming left tech. So I was doing a little extra research to see what's new, what's come about from our look back at the pandemic. And one of the interesting articles that I found was from Lysol, a great maker of disinfectants, hard surface disinfectants, and they increased their production 12X and it's remained that high since the pandemic and then another great article says 70% of that goes to wastewater treatment plants. And so there's been a significant increase of these chemicals into wastewater facilities. So it's the unseen consequences of changing human habits.

Trace Blackmore

Lysol makes soap. They also make a lot of disinfectants, so all of that's not being used up when we're using it in our household. So that's going to the wastewater facility. What's that doing to the bug population of our wastewater facilities that are supposed to eat all these things?

John Crisman

That's where it hits us the hardest. So all these chemicals can be considered amphiphilic compounds. So they're surfactants or surface active agents, so they're trying to remove oils from your skin, from your clothes, and use water as a solvent to wash it away. When it comes to our wastewater treatment plants, those types of chemicals want to keep contaminants in solution, so things like primary clarifiers and gaffs don't operate as efficiently. But those chemicals carry on whether they're bound to the solids, to anaerobic digestion, or whether they're going to activated sludge. And they actually inhibit the respiration of nitrifying bacteria. They directly kill the bugs, and in the anaerobic digesters, they inhibit methane formers. So a lot of issues there when it comes to treatment efficiencies, you need more air on the aerobic side. On the anaerobic side, you're dealing with sour digesters not performing the way that they should.

Trace Blackmore

John, I'm assuming the Lysol article is dealing more with the residential waste. How are things changed with industrial waste?

John Crisman

Well, that's very interesting. I actually discovered this problem with disinfection chemicals and surfactants back in 2016 because of an industrial user. I was managing sanitary district and running their industrial waste program. So I was always working with industrial users to make sure that they. Weren't going to harm the municipal plant, and sure enough chemical toilet waste is very, very difficult on wastewater treatment plants and we were able to work with industrial users to change to different types of deodorant chemicals and eliminate some of those bulk discharges. But it really opened my eyes to all the other industries that are using them, specifically food and beverage industry. So things have changed a lot for them because recalls on food products make headlines all the time. There's not a single food producer that wants to go through a product recall, looks really bad. So all of these industries use these types of disinfecting products as clean in place procedures before and after every batch in their process. And that in itself is going to the wastewater treatment plants. Some of the industries have pretreatment and they actually find out that they kill their own bugs in the industrial pretreatment and then others where they're discharging to the municipalities, they're starting to see the impacts of those clean in place procedures.

Trace Blackmore

We have an adage in this industry: the solution to pollution is dilution. So it sounds like we just throw more water through this, we can dilute it we can get back to normal, but we started this conversation all about water scarcity. So what now?

John Crisman

Yeah, precisely. I mean, we have to do something to actually deal with these chemicals and not just dilute them out. And to your point, the problem with water scarcity and the increased concentrations of waste is going up in industrial facilities too, as they recycle more of their own water and use less. So really we have to come up with a solution and that's how I found the company that I'm currently working for.

Trace Blackmore

So and we're going to talk about that in a moment, but I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, I know they've seen mandates with phosphorus and what they can release with that. And before that, I think we saw it with molybdites and then with zincs and probably tins going to be very soon. And if we go all the way back to probably the 80s, we're looking at chromates and all the things that have been eliminated. So surely there are going to be some sort of laws enacted that we're going to have to do something. What do you think those laws are going to be?

John Crisman

Well, I think the. EPA has already identified how these types of substances are going to be covered and it's really when a plant does their toxicity assessment, the risk assessment, and industries that are contributing to NPDES holders or industries that have NPDES permits are going to have to look at whole effluent toxicity and at that time they're going to have to do inventory of all the chemicals that are coming into the plant and making sure that they're not contributing. So I believe that the framework is already there, it just hasn't looked into that aspect of it yet.

Trace Blackmore

If you don't mind, take us through that process so somebody has a permit to discharge. They're discharging. Maybe they're not even looking at what they're discharging and then something happens at the plant and an investigation is started. What is that like?

John Crisman

Yep. So your plant can be running amazing and you do your quarterly whole effluent toxicity and you get high numbers, you get high numbers twice. Now you have to do something about it, and I believe it's called the TRA, toxicity risk assessment. And you basically have to go through your entire plant and do an investigation to figure out why that happened. In a lot of plants, a couple that I've worked for, they never had the toxicity issue again, it was fleeting and they had to do this massive study and increase their sampling frequency, at a huge expense. So it's not something easy to deal with. And one of the possible contributions could be an industrial user or somebody upstream.

Trace Blackmore

And just in case any of our listeners don't realize this, this is serious because they're going to say you can no longer discharge. And then what do you do?

John Crisman

Exactly. You have to find, you know, some new form of treatment. Taking it to the next level and usually that has a huge capital implication and operations and maintenance costs that go with that.

Trace Blackmore

So typically what we do is we try to figure out what's in the water that we don't want in the water. We figure out how to get it out of the water and then it goes somewhere like a landfill or something like that. How are you involved in that process?

John Crisman

So our company and our technology actually works to partially oxidize these types of chemicals before they get to the biological process. And so we're able to break them down to a level where they're no longer toxic and instead they're actually food for the biological process.

Trace Blackmore

John, you shared with me an article about some work that you did with Goleta, California. Can you tell us about?

John Crisman

That, yes, definitely. I used to actually be the operations manager at Goleta before I came into my new role and that's where I discovered this problem. And so I actually found in a treatment plant operator magazine that Moleaer was removing surfactants from wastewater using nanobubbles. Since surfactants have been my issue for years now, I had to get them on site as quickly as I possibly could. So within two months we had a full scale pilot installed at the headworks right after screening and grit removal, but before primary clarification. And we're just pulling a side stream out of the a channel and recirculating it through a nanobubble generator. The results were immediate. Visually, there wasn't stable foam on the top of the basins. Both the hydraulic equalization basin, the primary clarifiers, everything cleaned up and odors went away. But I really saw improvements to the biology. Much more stable operations, consistent nitrification, denitrification and ultimately we were able to save about 40% on our energy bill through more efficient oxygen uptake from the bacteria, more efficient oxygen transfer and ultimately, we could do more with less biomass under aeration, so it was very exciting, something that ultimately made me want to be part of what this new technology is and bring that message to the entire community.

Trace Blackmore

We have done a show before where we talked about bubble size does matter, so maybe we do a recap here. So we've got macrobubbles, microbubbles, nanobubbles. What's the difference?

John Crisman

So I can quote the size of nanobubbles. Nanobubbles are about 100 nanometers in diameter. That's the average. But nanobubbles have a very unique properties to them, different than micro and macrobubbles. When we talk about micro and macro bubbles, we're usually talking about oxygen transfer, dissolved oxygen. Nanobubble's aren't actually big players when it comes to either of those things. They really act as a chemistry that's so unique. So in clean water, nanobubbles are actually stable, and so they don't really diffuse much gas until they ultimately burst. Instead, they have a charged surface, they're hydrophobic, they don't coalesce together to form microbubbles, and because of those interesting properties based on their very small size, they actually attract certain chemicals to them, oils, surfactants, QACs. fats, grease. And when that bubble that's storing all this energy inside of it. First, it's literally releasing that energy that's breaking apart those complex compounds.

Trace Blackmore

Something I found fascinating when I was researching this was how the bubbles affect the nitrogen load as an operator, why is that so important?

John Crisman

So as far as what we're seeing with reduced water flows into wastewater treatment plants, our waste is fundamentally changing. And part of that is that the biological treatment process is starting where we don't want it to. It’s starting in the collection system, it's starting in our primary clarifiers. We're actually converting a lot of our organic nitrogen into ammonia along that process. So when you add nanobubbles into that system you actually change which biology is going to start working first and prevent a lot of that ammonia release to the system. So you do see a significant drop in nitrogen loading from the point that nanobubbles are injected to wherever they're going to a biological process.

Trace Blackmore

When you were working at the plant in Goleta, what's something that, you know, that you really feel, that if everybody knew it could really make a difference?

John Crisman

Ohh, that's a great question. Well, one thing that I've learned from wastewater is that knowing just one thing doesn't go too far, that you have to learn something absolutely every day. But what I would say to other operators is consider these other types of chemicals that are coming into the treatment facility. Engineers typically aren't taking them into account for the design of their treatment plants. So if they're operating their plant within the loading design and it's just not working, sometimes it's not your fault. Sometimes it's something else that's coming in. And so there are tests out there to test for QACs and other surfactants, but really the best thing is look for the signs. And that's really like digester foaming, stable foam on your primaries or your EQ basin. If you come in and it smells like laundry detergent on a Sunday morning, you're getting a lot of it.

Trace Blackmore

I don't know if all municipalities offer this, but I live in Gwinnett County, Georgia and in our water bill, they invited us to the water plant to kind of discuss some of the issues that they were having and what the end user could do. And we now, because my wife and I did that one, I just thought that was just so cool. So why wouldn't I do that? We now have a lower tier on our sewer. Anyway, what we saw there was so much solid waste that they had to comb out, rake out. I learned what a muffin monster was. I think they did a dirty jobs with Mike Rowe on that one. So all of that, you know, you don't think, oh, if I put this dental floss down the toilet, it's not going to be a big deal or this non flushable wipe. But when you see when everybody does that and what they're having to haul off, oh my goodness. So you've experienced all this. You've lived all of this. How can you speak a little bit into that?

John Crisman

Definitely. And you know my shameless plug for Goleta Sanitary District is that they have done an amazing job the entire time that I was there for for over 9 years, reaching out to the community and bringing the community into the wastewater treatment plant to see what's going on. And so through community outreach, you can do a lot. Through newsletters, you can inform the public. Goleta didn't have a fog problem at this time, and that was due to community outreach. Actually, I wrote the article in the local paper to inform the community about overusing surfactants. Everybody switched out from, you know, high flow washing machines to low flow in California, yet they're still using the same amount of surfactants, so it definitely helps to make those type of outreach to the community.

Trace Blackmore

So you mentioned fats, oils and greases, and that's the big problem that our county has. What are some tips that in the household we can do to help lessen that load when it gets to the water treatment plant?

John Crisman

Definitely. Well, back when there was newspapers around, it was great to mop up all your oil and grease with the newspaper and toss it in the trash. But one thing that you can do that's really easy. They sell little squeegees for your pots and pans or you can just squeegee them out into the trash before you go ahead and wash your pots and pans. A great way to keep that out of the storage system, and in fact it's a great thing for a small sanitary district or an area to pass those out at community outreach events and engage people on how they can do that.

Trace Blackmore

That same question, but now for industry.

John Crisman

Ohh for industry with fat, oils, and grease. Yeah, that gets a little bit more challenging, of course. The biggest industries that contribute are food service industry and it's all about good capture between the restaurant and the pipe going out. And so having properly sized interceptors to collect oil and grease and properly maintaining them.

Trace Blackmore

John, my apologies. I normally ask this at the top of the show and I was so excited to get into our interview, I totally forgot. But I'm curious what got you into this industry?

John Crisman

Well, that's a great question. I really love water and wastewater now. So I I like telling this story. I actually started out just finding a job, any job that I could when I moved out of my parent’s house and that job was installing the underground utilities. And so I was actually putting in sewer mains, water mains and I saw the guys working for the city and I was like, you know, I know a lot about this. I bet you I could do that job really great. And so first job, water distribution treatment operator and getting into the treatment side on the drinking water was great and I saw the chemistry, the physical separation processes. I said I got to really invest in this and so became certified as quickly as I could, moved up as quickly as I could. And the next step was taking a wastewater job. There was a little bit of a pay increase, but more than anything, when I got involved with wastewater, I said this is where I'm going to spend the rest of my life and through increasing certifications, studying hard, going to school, getting a bachelor's degree in engineering management, I was able to manage a sanitary district and now I'm working with a water technology, a startup water technology company bringing a solution, really to the planet with an innovative technology. So every conference that I go to, I'm around my people.

Trace Blackmore

John, you mentioned certifications. What certifications do you hold?

John Crisman

So currently I have a California Grade 5 wastewater treatment certification and a TCQ Texas Class A certification on top of that, I have in California a drinking water too. In both treatment and distribution. And then beyond that. I'm a CWA laboratory technologist 1.

Trace Blackmore

So some of those I've heard of. The question I have is if somebody's working in this field, how do they find out what certifications they should hold?

John Crisman

That's a great question. If you're in California, it's usually pretty obvious your employer knows it, but really it's great to reach out to your local WEA. They usually know what requirements there are, and they usually have class listings for your area, so they're a great resource for that.

Trace Blackmore

When we were speaking right before the interview started, you were telling me, you just got back from Wisconsin working with some cheese makers. Tell us about that trip.

John Crisman

Yeah, definitely. We had an interesting installation of our technology in Wisconsin. So I got to learn not only about the cheese making process itself, but a lot about dairy wastewater and the best way to treat it. And I got to meet some really amazing wastewater operators. And so this trip was really to highlight the work that we had done with them and the amazing work that they were doing at their wastewater plant to both recover all the resources and all the energy that they could, but I also got to get in a room with about 70 operators and they were all industrial waste, all at different dairies and great experience to find out what the needs were of the industry and share my little bit of knowledge on this novel technology.

Trace Blackmore

I'm trying to remember my knowledge of cheese making because we've got a couple of plants, so I think Rennick, which is like a stomach enzyme, they put in the water and that creates the curds in the whey they discharge the whey. What issue does that create downstream?

John Crisman

So it really comes back to some of the issues that most industrial waste has in the food and beverage industry is that they have to clean like no other. Interesting part about walking into a food facility, they literally have foamers to hit your boots as you walk through every door and that's just going down a drain into the wastewater plant, but each day and between each batch, they have to do a thorough cleaning. And so those slug loads of disinfectant and surfactants just create all sorts of havoc for wastewater treatment plants and the operators. And then the other thing with industrial waste versus municipal is that it's not a constant or consistent flow and there's usually not great communication between the production floor and the industrial facility. So when you're expecting to get food on a Monday for your plant and it doesn't come, that can do a lot of damage, especially when they double production on Tuesday. There's a lot of unforeseen issues that come into an industrial facility that really create challenges.

Trace Blackmore

I'm willing to bet a lot of people are nervous to contact the municipality because they think if they now put themselves on the radar that's going to cause some sort of pain for them later, and you're saying that's not the case.

John Crisman

I was referring more to the production in the factory and the and the industrial wastewater, but you're right. It actually helps a lot to have that communication between the industrial and the municipal. If you're discharging to them and you can give them a heads up, opening those lines of communication just creates transparency and just really helps the relationship.

Trace Blackmore

I can only imagine if that relationship was established and there was an issue and that company gets flagged, they're going to say, oh yeah, that's John down at the cheese plant. I know him. I'll give him a call, we'll take care of this instead of probably going full blown investigation, I'm guessing is that is that possibly what could happen?

John Crisman

Oh, absolutely. When things occur at a municipal plant and you don't know why and you have to go find it when you find it, eventually you're usually not very happy about it. But when there's great communication, you can work together. There's a lot of room within treatment plants to make adjustments for an increase in load or figure out a way that they can bleed that to you. There's a lot of things that can be done.

Trace Blackmore

Well scaled up nation. With technology, there's always the possibility of having technical difficulties and this was one of those times. We had an Internet issue and we were unable to finish the recording. But don't you worry, the only thing that we missed was the lightning round and I'm thinking maybe there's some more information we can get John to come back and share with us. So we will ask him the lightning round questions at that time.