Relocating Smart with Christine Sperr

You can learn a lot about a country from books and the internet. Mosquito season, proper greeting customs, the coordinates to the local pharmacy -- all information that’s readily available at your fingertips.

What you won’t find is how you’ll feel the moment your biology kicks in, and you become inflexible, judgmental, or paralyzed by uncertainty. And THAT’S what struggle looks like for expats.

The logistics are easy. It’s having help with the human side of intercultural competencies that’ll make or break you when you’re abroad.    

As we eagerly await the resurgence of global mobility, we’re also not naive to the reality that old rules are gone. Relocation will involve uncharted complexities that’ll require innovative solutions. And if we’re being honest (and now’s the time for brutal reevaluation), expats have looong suffered a broken system that’s well overdue for a makeover.

This week, I’m joined by relocation guru and ExpatWoman.com Country Manager, Christine Sperr who’ll tell us the hard truth behind the industry’s shortfalls. We’ll discuss the inadequacies of standard relocation support services, where many organizations fail, and how to do it better. 

In EP 173: Relocating Smart with Christine Sperr

• Why “tick-the-box training” flops
• How traditional programs exclude millennials
• What aspect of accountability falls on the expat
• The need for safe spaces exclusively for women
• Simple ways boutique companies get it right    

Listen now and learn how we can maximize this clean slate to restart smart.

Read the unedited transcript below:

Hello, it is 6:00 am in New York, 1:00 pm in Johannesburg and 6:00 pm in Bangkok. Welcome to Expat Happy Hour. This is Sundae Schneider-Bean from www.sundaebean.com. And I am bringing to you today a special episode that was actually originally recorded in Doha Qatar. I’m a solution oriented coach and intercultural strategist for individuals and organizations and I am on a mission to help you adapt and succeed when living abroad and get you through any life transition.

“All great changes are preceded by chaos.” This quote from Deepak Chopra takes on a unique meaning when I look back when this was originally recorded at the start of March and now reflect on it at the end of April. COVID-19 has completely introduced chaos into industries that rely on face-to-face contact and mobility. Your own life might be through that phase of chaos, and you’re looking to create new changes. 

So this episode of Expat Happy Hour is taking a special look at how can we use this chaos to invite changes that are going to be best for all going forward. Specifically, when it comes to the relocation industry.

I had the pleasure of meeting with country manager from Expat Woman, Christine Sperr, face-to-face in Doha back in March before this entire COVID thing accelerated greatly. She is a managing director, and has been the managing director of multiple big-name relocation companies, including Santa Fe Relocation, Crown Relocation, the Pasha Group and Writer Relocations. 

If you’re an expat you understand how important the role a relocation company can have in your life. If you are an organization, you understand how the relocation service provider is like a partner for you when you’re moving your families and talent across the world. 

So this episode is a sneak peak with an expert on relocation giving you an idea what happens behind the curtain. Because Christine Sperr has heard and seen things from the inside of being in a relocation company. Myself, I’m the one who serves the organizations and the individuals from behind the curtain. Meaning I’m privy to things that maybe your employees don’t dare tell you.

One thing to say about before we listen to this episode. It relates to my episode Raw Edges of Entrepreneurship, Episode 166. How things don’t quite go as planned. When I landed in Doha, I found out that my podcast microphone was not being read by my Mac. So you’ll notice the quality of the audio is a little bit different than normal. Because we’re sitting side-by-side with a social distance during the interview rather than recording into direct microphones. 

So now I’m going to let you listen to the interview that I had with Christine. What I want you to do is think about, how is this the beginning of a conversation. If you’re in relocation. If you’re in a corporation who hires relocation companies, let’s say you’re in learning and development and work directly with expats. Or even if you’re a coach serving expats, or the one as the family member who gets sent abroad. What is it that’s working with the relocation Industries you’ve had contact with? What’s not? What has to change? 

Listen in to the conversation between Christine and I and then my invitation to you is stick around to the end to hear how I’m contributing to changing the relocation industry. And I want to hear your ideas on what you think should be done as well. 

So have a listen.

Sundae: So thank you for being on Expat Happy Hour today and it’s great to have you in person. 

Christine: Thank you for having me. 

Sundae: Wonderful. We’re practicing social distance today because this episode is being recorded during the whole coronavirus situation that’s rapidly changing. And so if you’re listening to this much later, It’ll be interesting to have context. If you listen to it live, you’re probably wondering “Wow, how come she’s in Doha?” That’s another story, that’s last week’s podcast.

So Christine tell us, I’m so curious. You have had amazing leadership responsibilities in the Middle East. I want to know more about you. Like how did you get to do what you’re doing? 

Christine: Well, it all started when I was at university and I felt the need to just get out, to get anywhere. So I went on Semester at Sea, which is a university that goes around the world and you study each country. And from there I decided to dedicate my time, which was logistics based in schooling but dedicated more towards the human element of logistics. And there’s no better way to do that than to go into relocation. 

Because it’s highly emotional. You have different people, different scenarios, different situations every day. But then you still have the technical aspects of logistics, of shipping, of customs, of country regulations. So it was kind of like the perfect storm, that the best hybrid where my interest level. And I worked in the United States for Grable and loved it and we secured a large project for Procter & Gamble to do their expatriate services restructuring in Asia. 

And at the time I asked my mentor Bill Grable, “Can I please go overseas as an expat, I really need to try this. I have the theory but I need to experience it.” And he supported me. And wow 18 years ago I left America and haven’t been back. And relocated around the world doing this and supporting people who are moving globally. 

Sundae: So I have kind of a provocative question. You say the human side of logistics. I definitely see the human side of the logistics when it comes to relocation. And maybe education has changed since then or maybe the business is changing, but how aware are they of the human needs in relocation over logistics? 

Christine: That’s a good good question. I believe to be in this industry you should have qualities like empathy, understanding, relativity so that you can relate to people. However, I find that sometimes in our industry. The people that are supporting global mobile families haven’t experienced it themselves. So they do lack that intelligence to support them in the best capacity. We can all read country guides. We can all give information off of a computer screen. But to truly understand what somebody’s going through with their children, putting them into schools, feeling isolated, feeling afraid. I think you almost have to experience it yourself. 

Sundae: Yeah, and that’s the big question I think. I mean I can’t expect from the relocation industry that everybody in the business has lived abroad or expats or whatever. But my hunch is from my experience with my clients, is that they could be doing more to listen to what their clients concerns are or to respond. 

We’re going to talk about good things in the relocation industry too. But before we do that, I know my listeners are like “Everything’s broken.” 

Christine: You have a global network, so I think that companies need to encourage the utilization of that network or better. You have colleagues that sit in all these locations. If somebody has a concern or has a specific need it’s taking that initiative and being proactive in helping them, connecting them to the right people. Not saying that Expat Woman is excellent at that. But there are organizations, there are colleagues, there is an infrastructure that exists. But it takes that extra step out of a workday to do it and know where to go. 

Sundae: I empathise with people who are in headquarters, whatever organization they are in. I’ve been there. I was the head of intercultural management. And I think our company was present in 23 countries. And I develop programs. And I don’t know how much on the ground questioning did I do in those 23 countries? Like it is easy to come to work badge in and have your coffee. I mean I get it. I totally get it. 

So what do you think? Well, there’s a couple of things are going through my mind. What do you think needs to change that is so slow to change? The industry just needs a nudge to get to the other side. 

Christine: Well, I think that a lot of it. I mean it kind of relates to this but it is quite different. So I’m going to take it off topic of what we’re talking about now. But I think the industry hasn’t kept up with their demographics of the people that are relocating. So our bread and butter for many years were the expat family who had traveled. More career assignees who go from one country to another to another. Accumulate things, possessions, collections and movies. And so those traditionally or historically have been with large oil companies or companies that have been overseas for quite some time. And this was a natural progression or career path for their workforce. 

So we’ve always been focused on this but we’re not focusing on the younger generation. The Millennials who don’t need the same support, who are very different creatures with their very different habits. And I feel like we need to look more into technology solutions and be more up-to-date with various demographics. And not just focusing on the older population.

Sundae: Like the old school. Yeah, right. So it’s time to sort of update how they see it. 

Christine: Absolutely. You need to take a step back. And whether that would be engaging in a think tank of young graduate students. And understanding if you were to relocate or if you’re from another country, what were your challenges? Here’s our model. Break it down, fix it. Give me something fresh. Give us something new.

That maybe is what we need to do. Because we keep, I see that the industry, I’m not going to say we, keep swirling around very the same topics all the time. And we just need to take a step back, get outside the box and really look at innovative solutions.

Sundae: I mean honestly when I get my first thought every location I think of a container. I think of my stuff. And now I know, people are talking about talent mobility. So that’s important. We’re not moving stuff or houses, we’re moving talent. And what do they need? And like you said it might not even be a Millennial but there might be a demographic where their stuff isn’t what’s important. It’s maybe moving their skills or expanding the region they are in.

I was just actually talking to someone here who is Italian. And he’s in the service industry. And he’s so happy to be in the Middle East in the service industry because he wants to add that to his resume. And then he wants to go to this other region and do it. And that he has a vision. So for him, it’s not so much about the housing or his things. It’s more about getting the geographical experience. 

Christine: Yeah, absolutely. 

Sundae: So we have got some work to do. So, why do you think it’s not changing rapidly? I mean everything seems to be.

Christine: Yeah, that’s a very good question. I don’t know if it’s lack of financial resources, lack of vision, lack of the necessary human element, the staff to develop and implement it. Or maybe it’s all of the above? I’m not sure. I don’t know why. But it will be kudos to the companies that can be fresh and free thinking and offer solutions to work forces that are mobile that really benefit them and add value. And if they can measure that ROI even better because then they can prove two companies how valuable it is.

Sundae: Okay. So now I’m going to ask another question. I don’t know how popular it’s going to be. But one of the things, I am an intercultural strategist and a coach so I’ve done intercultural training. Companies often asked for pre-departure training or training apparent upon arrival. And I was approached by a very large organization to basically welcome to fill in the blank of the country. And I’m like, “Nope, not gonna do that.” Because you can read about that. You can buy a book on that. You can find that out online. What we need to do is develop people’s intercultural competencies, how they manage uncertainty, build resilience. 

And maybe my perspective of the relocation is outdated. But when I was looking into what they offer I felt like the model was outdated. That it was still moving to China.

Christine: Shake your hand. Don’t shake your hand. Don’t eat what’s on your plate. That’s not relevant. We can Google that down in five minutes and have all of the information that we need. But resilience is a good one. I feel, oftentimes, I will meet an employee or a family whose transferring in and my gut instinct will tell me in the first five minutes whether they can cut it or not. It’s not about shipping, it’s not about anything else besides just their inner traits. 

Sundae: So, I mean the reason why that gets me so hard is because whatever budget is put into training, is going to training that ticks a box. And also for the person who is feeling like they want to prepare. They think they’re getting prepared but they’re not. It’s actually setting them up to fail because they feel security when they’re not standing on a safe floor. Does that make sense?

Christine: Absolutely.

Sundae: So what I’ve done. I have a thing where I help with building resilience and finding purpose and meaning and connecting with local cultures. But like when you’re there, not when you’re overwhelmed anyway, and you’re not consuming information.

Christine: You have a million things on your checklist, and you’re not present.

Sundae: And not the day you get there and you’re totally jet-lagged and nothing is sinking in. It’s the only one in the market that’s like that. I’m like why why is this not obvious to people?

Christine: Yes, ironically in the last few years we have a client in the cyber security space who offered their new hires very large salaries because they had a very specific technical skill and did quite a large batch hiring. 660 employees every month. So it’s quite a large rotation. But after a few years they were noticing their retention rate was dismal and they had no idea why.

 So they started asking, took a moment of time and started asking their staff why. And then the feedback was that while the compensation was great, that the employees didn’t feel they were supported, weren’t utilized properly, weren’t engaged by the company there or weren’t offered support. 

And when we did a cost modeling for them and we said, “Okay look at the packages. Look at what you spent in terms of shipping, flights, temporary accommodation, visas, projects. And then look at what it would take to put in a better training or integration mechanism when people come in. It’s a no-brainer. But still they don’t do it.

Sundae: It makes me wild. Okay, so I mean the research varies. But like I hear one annual salary, it could be three hundred thousand dollars. And it’s like for 2,000 bucks, I think we see the return on the investment. And this is the thing that I noticed, is that people from all the kinds of companies we talked about come to me. But not through their company. They come to me as individuals. Because they’re not getting supported and they are struggling. And I think there’s a couple things going on there. 

One, they might not want to be flagged as a problematic family. 

Christine: Don’t want to speak up, don’t want to rock the boat.

Sundae: Don’t want to look like they’re not resilient. So they might not go through the official channels. Some are really amazing. Like I’ve had some companies that actually fund the accompanying partner to find a new direction etcetera. But what I noticed is sometimes it’s as simple as, “I knew this would be hard. I didn’t know it would be this hard.” And to have that validation of “Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with me. This is hard. And now I have a sparring partner to sort of find a solution.” Rather than feeling like you’re being swallowed by a wave or you’re doing something wrong or you’re hiding it from your partner because you’re the one that caused the problem. 

Yeah and God forbid they find out you’re not happy. And I just feel like we need a culture shift. And I don’t think it’s expensive. I actually think it’s saving money when you think about all the money. 

Christine: When you do the modeling it’s actual data. And it was millions of this currency. So three to one to the dollar. But still the amount. And I don’t know if it’s because the people that see it, to get it don’t know what to do with it, don’t feel like that they would get traction internally. Or when companies are downsizing and are looking at budgets, this looks like a soft fluffy thing. That, “Why would we spend money on that when we can have something tangible?” I don’t know why companies don’t embrace it,they tend not to.

Sundae: It makes me crazy. Because honestly, we don’t have business problems, we have people problems. It’s about that and I also hate the word soft skills because it sounds like hard versus easy. Because it’s not. And managing uncertainty is hard, building up your resilience is hard. Yes, Not judging is hard, staying flexible is hard. Those are hard things. And we’re not even biologically programmed like that. We’re basically going against biology to not judge.

Christine: Because the company can’t measure, chart it or put it into a spreadsheet.

Sundae: I guess that’s true. So that’s really good Insight. So that’s a call-out to let’s say the training industry, the coaching industry to say, maybe you should figure that out. Like how do you then chart it? I have you know testimonials. It’s qualitative information. I do have some quantitative. Like if their performance from their team goes up by 18 percent. But systematically, what are coaching initiatives doing to measure? You’re right. But it’s like is there an empathy scale that we want. I mean, I don’t know. There’s so much knowledge I have about intercultural stuff. But you trigger me and you get me tired and I will snap. My poor husband. In that instant the knowing is not applied when you’re under pressure or whatever it is. 

All right, thank you for letting me vent about what I think needs to change. I think it’s important that we have the conversations. So if anybody is listening in the industry, this is in the spirit of, we can do better. And actually let’s have a conversation about what that would look like. And encouraging people in the relocation industry to reach out to their people or to practitioners and say, “How can we do better?” 

So it’s not meant as criticism. It’s more like I feel like I have a glimpse behind the curtain they don’t have. People tell me things that they don’t tell their companies. So why don’t they listen? Because it’s what their people really want to say, but don’t dare. 

So what do you think is really, what are they doing really well right now in the industry. 

Christine: Yeah good question. I think that they’re trying to listen to clients requirements and retool some of their traditional offerings. Maybe traditional 5-day home search isn’t really required because there’s a lot of information on a website. And you don’t need to drive somebody around for multiple days. Maybe that’s not required. But they need something that’s a little bit different. It’s flexible. It could be off hours. It could be more guidance. It could be more counseling toward, “Have you considered this this this this? Okay now that if you’re at a place where you’ve made a decision, here’s how we’re going to support you.” 

It’s really trying to redefine traditional programs. And I do see some of it. And it’s more the smaller flexible boutique companies that I think I have it right. Not the big relocation companies that are doing more of it. But you know, yeah, I hope to see that trend continue. 

Sundae: So the young more boutique companies or maybe trendsetters.

Christine: I think so.

Sundae: Improving a model so that the bigger companies will see that it’s safe and be able to experiment with it. That’s important. 

Christine: And I think that the smaller boutique companies oftentimes try to be more service oriented. And really look at the staff that they have and take staff that have relocated. And understand the human elements and little bit more than just transactional elements. 

Sundae: This isn’t a two-way street. If we are moving and I’m working with the relocation company. I also have a responsibility to make the most of it. 

What tips do you have, having been on the relocation side, for expats who want to make the most of their work with the relocation company? What should we do when we’re engaging with our relocation company? 

Christine: It’s a good question. I guess it initially, it tends to be based on the package that you’re offered by your organisation. A lot of companies don’t even have access to relocation companies because their companies don’t support that. But I think that oftentimes maybe that the point person that they’re working with isn’t the most knowledgeable or maybe the most worldly. So it’s asking the questions of “Well, do you have a colleague in XY destination who could assist me with this?” Asking for that connectivity. Because location companies have vast connectivity. They have global resources and people who are on the ground in that destination country who will know the answers. But oftentimes there’s that fear of connection like, oh, you know, they don’t put you in connection with the people. So yes, I think as a person relocating don’t be afraid to ask for expertise and ask for an alternative contact in the country that you’re going to. To ask more questions, things like that. I don’t see people knowing to ask more and asking often. 

Sundae: It makes me think about, there’s a word in German that comes up for me. It says “selbstverst?ndlich” like “It’s obvious.” So for me it’s like “Well, of course if they knew someone in the area, they would have contacted them.” And that’s not true. 

Christine: That’s going outside the box. That’s not on the check sheet. 

Sundae: It is also from the expat perspective, if we built intercultural competencies in our years abroad. We have to use them with the people that are let’s say domestically located. We can’t treat them like they’re an expat. We have to also put our hat on and go, “What is their frame of reference? What will be obvious for them?” And I think that we need to do that. And it’s hard to do that when you’re tired. But it’s kind of like, “This is how we can help her.” We can help ourselves by putting that hat on. That’s good.

Okay, so we’ve talked a lot about relocation. But you are a head of Expat Woman here. Which I have a connection with in my heart. Because back when I started my own company, I did an expat series for Expat Women. And that’s where I shared that picture of you where I am right next to Sting. I just died laughing. I’ll try to include that in the show notes or something. But when I saw it on the internet, I was like, I’m right next to Sting.

So tell us about why Expat Women. Why does it exist? What does it serve?

Christine: Okay so the founder of Expat Woman is Jane Jury. She was a career professional with Unilever, relocating around the world. And she relocated with her husband and two boys at the time into the UAE, three boys sorry. And it was the early 2000s when it was a little bit tougher than it is now. And there was a feeling of small villages. And she wanted to develop something that supported women who were relocating to a new country. Whether it was a hardship posting not moving just the emotions and the infrastructure around it. So she created Expat Woman in 2002. I met her shortly thereafter in 2003. Being a woman starting up a logistics and relocation company in the Middle East was challenging. Right time at the right place. And so I quickly felt a kindred connection with her and started working with her on programs for the expats that we were working with. 

Luckily my organization at the time secured several of the large financial and insurance companies coming into DIFC. So we had a lot of people relocating in. And it was a natural fit to what she was building. Ways for them to connect and integrate and have information.

Sundae: Wonderful and face-to-face.

Christine: And a lot of events. There was a lot of coffee morning events getting them together. Programs, seminars and then the online developed. And when the online developed that became the repository for information and communication. And it started to expand so it no longer was just in the UAE. If you look on the website we’re in several locations now. Offering content support, activities, a community for women. Now our viewership is 65% and so there are still men that go to our site. Even clients would say, “Oh, we love your site because there’s so much information on there.” But in the social media realm it is only women that are there.

Sundae: Why only women? I have my own ideas on this, why that’s important. But why do you think it’s important that the female experience is accentuated?

Christine: I think the times are changing. We all know that women are being hired in roles and they’re also the transferring professional. But traditionally it’s been, the woman has been the accompanying partner. I was trying to think of the PC term right now.

Sundae: Now they’re saying accompanying talent. Okay. 

Christine: So with women I find that we are very open and transparent and want to help each other. Where maybe men aren’t so much like that. We tend to share, bring along, cooperate. And so it’s easier to build that sense of community and that cooperation with a base of women. 

So that is the focus. You can do everything and then this is Expat Woman’s niche. On social media it’s a completely different dynamic. You want women to have a safe place to express their views and not my fear that somebody’s going to try and write them notes and try to meet them or whatever. So, it’s quite strict on that.

Sundae: This is a side note to any man who’s listening. No. We do not want you to send us an image of yourself or any part of your body in a direct message. How is that a good idea? Do the good guys know that happens.

Christine: No they don’t. I think they would be astounded to find out that even on LinkedIn it happens. 

Sundae: Yes I know I get these creepy guys, like no, the answer is no. It is not a good idea. 

Christine: So it’s trying to guard that confidentially. But also that spirit of community. 

Sundae: But also from a communication perspective. What I know from my communication background is that conversations are different. If there’s a room of women there’s a conversational topic. If you had one man in the room the conversation shifts. So it gives women a safe space and that does not mean that men don’t need safe space. 

They absolutely do, absolutely. But it’s about creating a space personally. As you know having lived in the Western World most of my life I would want to know, what do I need to know as a woman for example in the Middle East? Like what are some of the things I need to know? How do I navigate the space? How do I lead in this cultural context? I would be really curious. And that answer would look different for a male leader.

Christine: Actually it does.

Sundae: So that’s so interesting. So what else. So I want to know if people want to get in contact with you or there’s something that you really believe in. How should they get in contact with you? And what do you want them to check out next? 

Christine: Well, okay. So I am the editor monitor here in Qatar. So if you apply to join Facebook then that’s who you’re interacting with, you’re interacting with me. You can also reach out to me through the website platform. I’m not going to say daily, but at least two to three times a week. I do have ladies reaching out to me saying, “Oh we’re going to be coming to Qatar. This school is full. Do you have any recommendations?” 

So it’s almost like I utilize my relocation hat here quite a bit here, in trying to give guidance and support. I tried to give information and try to be non biased. But I try to draw the line there because it becomes very difficult. I’ve learned in years of being in relocation that people need that friend in the relocation and I can’t be friends with everybody. So please I hope that people understand that if I’m not over chatty or don’t invite and accept them into my personal Facebook space or something like that. It’s not anything personal. It’s just there’s only so much bandwidth to support people. 

Sundae: And there are amazing people out there that do that support or are qualified to do that. You do your job. 

Christine: I think they can connect you to people that are similar or can support you or give you options or give you an outlet. And then that’s what I enjoy and I hope that’s what I can bring to the community. 

Sundae: That’s excellent. Well, and that’s why I do the Expat Coach Coalition. And I have a group of expat coaches who are focused on global mobility so that there’s more than me. There’s people out there around the world to be that person. But not a friend. A neutral third party. Which has know-how on how to do the hard stuff and that’s different and I think that’s important. 

So Christine thank you for all the work that you’ve done with the expat community over the years. I think it’s wonderful. And thank you for coming here in person. It’s been wonderful. 

Christine: Absolutely.

So this whole conversation has essentially looked at, how can we, going forward, when we’re looking at the chaos and trying to find out how we adapt to these challenges, where do we come out on the other side? When we’re looking specifically at global mobility and relocation, what’s been working that we should keep doing? What’s broken that needs to be fixed?

I know that for myself. I’m on a mission to support expats just in time with the real things they are struggling with. I’m fed up with pre-departure training. And what I want instead is to help expats with their real challenges right when they’re having them. So that they can make the best of their lives abroad. That’s why I created the program Adapt and Succeed which is packaged in a flexible way. So that people can get the support with what they need right when they need it.

And it’s a way for organizations to support the thousands of individuals they are sending around the world.

And yes, this makes an impact, but I know that together we’re stronger. And that’s why I’ve invited a host of other professional coaches to join me in Expat Coach Coalition so they can be by my side as we serve individuals and organizations. 

If you want to be part of Expat Coach Coalition and go through this four-month program, which not only teaches you the tools to serve expats globally that have been tested for over a decade, but also amplifies how you can be showing up in your business both for individuals and organizations. Then I want to talk to you because our application process will be closing at the end of this week, and I want to talk to you. Because together we are stronger. 

Remember you’ve been listening to Expat Happy Hour with Sundae Schneider Bean, thank you for listening. 

I will leave you with an anonymous quote: “Sometimes our lives have to be completely shaken up, changed and rearranged to relocate us to the place we’re meant to be.”

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