Q&A with Alex and V - on the strength of D&I working groups

Thank you both for joining me. Who are you and how did you come to join the D&I working group where you currently work?

V: I identify as a Black queer fabulous queen and my pronouns are she/her. How I got into the tech scene is a fun story. Watching movies about the tech world, I knew moving to Berlin, that experiencing this would be part of my bucket list.  I wanted to venture into this world and see what it has to offer.

Diversity and Inclusion in the workplace have been a part of my life since I started my career. Even when I lacked the vocabulary, I always knew that I needed to be in places where I felt safe and not discriminated against because of my race or body size or how I speak. When I had my first real job in New York, it became evident that I needed to hold onto core values and standards to feel the environments I am a part of as safe spaces. 

I always left when these conditions were not met. Unfortunately, it is no different with the current company I work with - which is disappointing. However, I got connected with people from the D&I working group and slowly became a group member.

Alex: My pronouns are they/them. I am White and come from a background where money was not a struggle; I had the privilege to earn a bachelor’s degree. Today I define myself as non-binary and queer, which was not always the case in the past. Defining myself this way has a double sense; it is not only my gender and sexual identities, it is also a political statement. It is my political identity. 

I had to face a lot of aggression in the past. As an individual fighting for my own rights, I realized that fighting with other people in different situations of marginalization can actually strengthen all of us. So I really do believe in intersectionality, even if it's a hard thing to carry out as it means strong alignment or that you have to accept to dis-align, but with respect and positivity.

If this fight is possible in my private life, it should also be possible in the workplace. However, my opinion is that the fight only stops with capitalism being dismantled. As we’re operating in a capitalist environment, the question becomes: how can you talk about equity and equality in a system that is, by design,  made from inequality? Even in the current setup, it’s important to start the work because it means reducing the disparities. 

V mentioned “feeling safe”: what is there in your current environment that makes you feel safe, making you want to stay?

V: My honest answer to what makes me feel safe:  the D&I group. I don't think I would have lasted this long if I didn't have these connections. They give me light and encouragement. It is more than a focus group. They are my teammates and I have nothing but respect and love for everyone there. 

Working in such a company is a game: it will either suck you in and you're going to be a part of the problem or you can acknowledge that there are a lot of issues and learn how to gain privilege for yourself.  If you choose the latter, it's a game you decide to play. And you also have to know when to leave it. 

On that note, I know about all-Black spaces, supposedly open at first glance, that are very toxic environments. But, again, it’s about picking your fights and going for what you can handle. 

Alex:  I would like to point out that a safe environment does not exist per se. We are in a world that is not designed for marginalized people. Secondly, companies will always pink-wash, green-wash and do all the -washing possible. If they do so and if there is any money going into it, I want to be part of the conversation, not to get benefits from it, but more to (re)direct the funds to the right people, not to the people capitalizing on the buzzwords that diversity or inclusion can represent. 

What I see with the D&I group is a lot of care. The pressure is high and we do take care of each other within this group. I have never seen such a high level of that intersectionality. Sometimes, we don't need to say anything because we get each other. I second what V said that it could also be very toxic and it's vital to recognize it and to be able to leave when it's time. 

About this D&I working group, how is it structured and what is happening there daily or weekly? 

Alex: When I joined the group some years ago, it was more informal and sometimes more powerful. After a few people left, the group was left with no strength. Since then, we've been focusing on rebounding. Parallel to that, we saw the management’s priorities shifting towards hiring women in higher-level positions because it has become a legal requirement. All of a sudden, because of this focus there was nothing else on the radar anymore.

V: It almost feels like the management doesn’t take this group too seriously, as in We want to support you and your initiative with pronouns. But on the side, we'll continue to hire white women in these power positions to prove we've done our share of the work. So now you all can kind of be quiet and accept your wins.

Alex: Absolutely. I’d like to add that many companies, not only ours, hide behind metrics and measurable success. It is sort of a mantra. But is that the only information you can find out there? Data on gender.  and data on (dis)abilities is a topic that is often avoided because companies are not doing quite well with this, they’ll hide this part and pay fines instead.  But you could also choose to challenge that part and start asking for other metrics: how many queer people do you have in your company? How many trans* people, Black people or LatinX are there?

Companies would then answer: it’s illegal to collect that kind of data. So we end up with no data at all. And guess what: there is this gigantic elephant in the room, but we can’t do anything about it...

And then, as a super fake solution, companies prefer to say, “we have in-house 50+ nationalities and X amount of languages,” but it is not good enough. It is time to start a conversation about how it could actually be legally possible to gather this information as long as it is collected on a voluntary basis, anonymized and aggregated. 

Interesting point! Apart from bonding and connecting, what do you think is the role of the D&I working group today? 

V:  It allows like-minded people to come together. It may also act as a sounding board for managers and C-levels to get advice on certain things. But because we do not have buy-in, we aren't recognized as an official group (it is all voluntarily); we do not have the power to make the changes we’d like. So, ok, we’ll let you have your little volunteer group. We're not going to give you time or money for it. You can talk amongst yourself; you get a little budget here and there. But be quiet and be there for us when we need you. 

That is the game of chess that is played within the company.

We decided to go the grassroots way: to plant as many seeds in people and in as many single interactions as we can. Starting with the people within our respective teams. Even if those conversations happen outside of the workplace, then we have done our job as activists. This is the strategy right now:  focus on planting one seed. At least, it takes away some of the intense disappointment of not having buy-in from top management. 

Alex: It boils down to two different possible scenarios. The first one, the dream scenario, is that you have buy-in from the management because the company understands it can get stronger and that the product could get stronger.

On the other hand, marginalized individuals will find ways to meet each other. If you don't put in any effort or allow them to do more than shushing, it will create friction. Those people will feel tired, make noise around you. They won’t necessarily contribute to making the product better and end up in a lose-lose situation. However, marginalized people are used to this type of situation. That's why we’re going the grassroots way. As adrienne maree brown offers: you can try to change a critical mass or work on critical connections. I believe more and more in changing people, one person at a time. 

What’s happening in this group on a daily basis? How do you keep it alive? 

V: We’re not meeting every day but somewhat weekly (sometimes bi-weekly) depending on all the projects we have to handle.  But we are very much alive in our chat. There is something happening on our private Slack channel every single day, whether it's a hello or a personal sharing or a shoutout (article, references, emails)

Alex: We have a global Slack channel for the whole company and a more private one. On the global channel,  we share new resources. For example, it can be the definition, a word, concept or article, to encourage everyone across the company to have the same vocabulary around D&I.  The great thing is that people (outside the working group) also share by themselves and take the initiative to start new conversations; for example, someone sharing a book reference and explaining why they liked the read. 

V: The presence of our D&I group encourages others to speak up.  For example, after a controversial company meeting,  some people came to us recognizing something needed to be addressed and showing a will to keep the conversation going. I felt so proud of that moment. That means our planted seeds are growing. 

Nice. Talking about seeds, what are the seeds you are taking from the outside and borrowing from other companies?

V: I'm not getting a lot from other companies, to be honest. My passion and personal experience are what fuels me every day. 

Alex: Yes, personal life is the biggest source of motivation. I am also fortunate to be part of a group outside of work where I see how change actually happens. It also reminds me that we have more power than we think most of the time. 

To talk about internal change and D&I, I often take the example of the line at the entrance of a club. When you run a party and want to have a queue that is as diverse as possible, where do you start?  Well, the line changes with the way you behave inside the club. For example, if you have an awareness team, the code of conduct is printed everywhere explaining the rules and what is not accepted; if you make sure accessible bathrooms are appropriately used and not used by people who don’t need it, then you ultimately change the queue. 

It's a similar approach in the business context. If you want your company to be diverse but all the incoming CVs all look the same, where is the problem? You could start looking at where you are outsourcing, but this is not the only thing. You can also think about ways to make space for women in meetings. If you cannot/ or do not want to produce data about race, you can still talk and use data about biases and racism in the world. You could train people or just open up the discussion. And sometimes it is as easy as that; just opening a conversation. 

This analogy with the club scene is very evocative. Talking about seeds, how do you want these seeds and this group to grow in the future?

V:  I would like to see these conversations become company-wide initiatives with buy-in from the management C level executives.  I think that this grassroots strategy will continue to spread and reach interested people. If those people are the only ones we ever reach in the end, I still feel that's a fantastic goal and vision.

In terms of internal D&I work in companies, it starts with recruitment. It is such a crucial step; why don’t we make part of the onboarding experience about bias training so that new recruits learn how to interact with the team? It starts from there.

Alex:  I want to see diversity and inclusion, but mainly inclusion, becoming a discussion.  I think people will wake up in five to ten years, the same way they wake up regarding women now. They will then be saying, “oh, by the way, we might have to hire people with disabilities and also maybe people of color.” Maybe it will suddenly become THE thing to do and they will use that to show how progressive they are. But that's my pessimistic vision of things.

Despite this, I do think things are changing. For that, we need natural-born leaders to take space and push these discussions further. At the moment, we are strong at developing internal structures within companies but we also need an umbrella or a place where interconnections between companies can happen. 

Getting back on the priority of hiring women in leading positions, I would have expected the focus to be somewhere else, given the awareness of the BLM  movement of last year?

Alex: Initiating a conversation and sending out a company-wide email was a buzz action. The top management must have seen that many companies were making statements and having initiatives. Therefore, not saying anything would look like we do not care about race or inequalities. Thus, the hasty solution was to make a statement and propose something internally but with no real follow-up. 

As I said, companies tend to hide behind the hiring of women. However, that’s not being inclusive because you don't have true representation. Besides, just having Black people in the company is just the tip of the iceberg.

The BLM movement last year was a catalyzer that urged us all to see that there is no other option than to talk about systemic oppression in general. For the progressive initiatives to happen, you need conversations to happen early on. Some companies had unisex toilets for many years now because they started the question about safe environment, recruitment and retention more than five years ago. We now need to have these discussions about all aspects of oppression in every company and to find solutions together now. And maybe then, we’ll be able to have some hope.

For people who want to start a D&I working group internally, what would be your recommendations as first steps,  especially if there is no buy-in from management?

V:  I think the first step is finding a core group of like-minded people you feel you could create a safer space with. You will get triggered and tested relentlessly from the executive level, so you need those people to count on, hold each other accountable, and support you in those interactions.

Alex: Absolutely, and it is great to pass the mic to someone who is not triggered by the topics you might find triggering. When it comes to questions around sexual orientation and gender identity, I am less and less patient. I am happy to rely on someone else who can talk on my behalf sometimes. No one is perfect, but this could be of mutual benefit as long as you’re surrounded by people who can check themselves and receive feedback. 

Finally, what do you read? What do you listen to? How do you keep inspired on this topic? 

V: For podcasts, I like to listen to Brown Girl Self-Care, The Secret Alexives of Black Women, Therapy for Black Girls. I also like Hoodrat to Headwrap; I find it beautiful that both hosts start playfully and tackle serious issues. I  listened to the one about colorism, which was a concept that helped me understand my interactions with people. Beyond that, what inspires me is listening to people’s stories; it often encourages me to Google or buy books to dig deeper. 

Alex: One easy way to get into D&I is through TV series. The first ones I can think of are Dear White People, Orange Is The New Black, or Alexove on The Spectrum. If you’re more into reading, I highly recommend you look into the editions from AK Press. You can also look into Emergent Strategy from adrienne maree brown, which explains the concept of critical connection vs. critical mass.