Podcast Your Way to Hollywood: How Content Creators Can Find Success

Nothing's hotter right now in the film and television industry than podcasts. From Homecoming to Limetown Hollywood has taken notice that if you want to build your audience from scratch and create a buzz, podcasts can be a low-cost way to test your concept and create a revenue stream. Yet with so much content in the world from television, films, gaming, manga and other forms of entertainment, how does one produce a serialized podcast drama that not only breaks through the tsunami of quality entertainment, but competes against other podcast dramas?

Travis Vengroff, co-owner of the company Fool & Scholar Productions graciously answers these questions and so much more.

For those not familiar with your podcasts, tell us about them.

My wife and I are Fool & Scholar Productions. We are a two-person team who create a number of fiction podcasts that are audio dramas with a full cast, and intense sound design?—basically like listening to a movie. Our most popular show is The White Vault, where an international team of researchers goes to the arctic to discover the source of a mysterious signal. They discover that in the most remote part of the world, they are not alone. It's an intellectual horror podcast that features a truly diverse cast hailing from six continents, and we showcase many of their native languages on the show.

Our most recent work is VAST Horizon, which is a scifi about one woman who wakes up alone aboard a derelict space ship. It's a mix of adventure and drama as we jump between flashbacks of her past and her current battle for survival as the ship falls apart around her.

We also have a Dungeons and Dragons podcast called Dark Dice, which is a horror fantasy story. We've edited it in such a way where you really don't need to know anything about the game elements to appreciate the story, but ultimately the outcomes of the story are largely dictated by chance and intelligent decision making on behalf of the team. It also features a full-fantasy soundtrack with real hurdy gurdy, accordion, dulcimers, and a 40-person choir.

Finally, our first and oldest podcast is The Liberty Podcast, and it contains multiple stories set within a single colony-city in the distant future. The protagonists in our stories are generally scientists or ethnographers who are working to better their "Utopian military state" (huge air quotes) while trying to understand the dangers that lurk just beyond its walls.

What kind of success have you had so far?

With over 4 million downloads across the four feeds, our shows are all (except Dark Dice) in the top 1% of podcasts. Liberty & The White Vault have won awards over the years, and have been featured on radio stations, podcast reviews, showcases, and more while our newer shows Dark Dice and VAST Horizon were both nominated for awards this year. All of our shows have been in the top charts on iTunes, many have been featured on Pandora, Spotify, Himalaya, and Apple Podcasts. I'm particularly proud of our Webby Honoree for sound design and music for The White Vault this year as we were competing directly with Marvel's Wolverine. The White Vault and Liberty also have Wikipedia pages. We have had our works performed at multiple live shows in the US and UK, and we manage a number of really great Internet communities for our shows with fans who care about our stories and characters. I think that's our biggest creative win and we each take the time to read every review and mention our stories get. Finally, our Fool & Scholar Productions Patreon has grown to the point where both of us can podcast full time.

What led you to creating an audio drama instead of a book, or web series or film?

It's funny you should mention this because we started podcasting in audio drama as a means of pre-promotion a Liberty graphic novel series. I have a film & music background so editing and creating a production by ourselves without ever having to leave our home making a story podcast seemed too good to be true. We were able to quickly exceed 100 regular listeners, then 200, then 500, then 1000 early into our first season. These are people who still regularly listen to our work, engage with us on social media, and love our stories. We could never do this with the same regularity or creative control in any other medium. Even when we sold 300+ copies of our graphic novel at our premiere at NYCC, our podcast fans are so much more engaged with the content that's not only easier and cheaper for us to produce, but it's more fun. I'm going to finish my graphic novel series in May, 2020, and even if I get a publishing deal and hit the top 100 sales charts for the United States, our podcast's popularity will eclipse those numbers and have taken far less time to produce. We'll also have told over 30 hours of stories instead the equivalent of a film in comic form.

What are some of your greatest challenges in terms of creating or promoting your podcast?

The hardest part for us is balancing our most precious resource: time. We take about 1.6 hours to produce a single minute of audio between the two of us, and we produce over 45 minutes of content every two weeks. This does not include community management, convention appearances, live shows, or the additional promotion we do to get the word out. Since this is a bit of an unfair but practical answer, I'll also say that some very specific sound effects are very difficult to record with authenticity. It took me months to acquire high quality polar bear vocalizations, it's taken me weeks to find human teeth for an upcoming episode (we are a horror podcast after all), and it took us two months to find someone who could translate and speak Manchu—the near-extinct language spoken by 1700's China for The White Vault: Imperial spin-off series. The same can be said for Kaitlin's research while writing our stories and keeping them both scientifically and historically accurate. We both find these challenges really enjoyable, and while most of our audience is unaware of the work that goes into creating an authentic experience, I think almost all listeners will agree that our shows are quality in both writing and sound design. Podcast promotion has the same issue as I mentioned before in that we never feel that enough is enough. We always want to do more, and we never have enough time to engage our audiences in the hidden places on the Internet they call home.

What is your ultimate goal for the series and your career in general?

We're at a strange point in our careers in that we've only recently made the jump to full-time creators. We would be doing this if we retired, so in many ways we're already living the dream, even though the dream has many elements that are both stressful and difficult. So, I'd like to say something like, "we'd like our shows to grow to X-thousands of downloads, to give another TED talk, to lecture around the world (which we should be doing in 2020), to win all of the possible awards we can win for our productions, to empower X-number of fans to become creators in their own right, to get a TV deal that sees the light of day (and doesn't suck when produced), and to make more money", but the definition of success within the podcasting medium, and in our niche within podcasting, is constantly evolving so our targets are always raising and being redefined. It's a question I'm always asking myself, asking fellow creators, and one that many of the top creators have a difficult time quantifying beyond extremely personal "cool factor" goals or straight monetary goals. I personally would really would really love Nicholas Cage or Dwayne Johnson to be a guest character on one of our shows, and Kaitlin's two dream actors are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone.

But back on track, the medium of podcasting is still very new. Only about ~70% of Americans know what a podcast is, and out of those, only a portion know that fiction podcasts exist. They are essentially free audio books, often times with a full cast and no narration in all genres imaginable, yet because it has the word "free" I suspect that many who would enjoy them are skeptical of their ease of accessibility. After all, if it's free what value can it possibly hold?

Kaitlin and I would really like to see a growth of the medium (and specifically audio drama podcasts) to full mainstream awareness, and to that end we host panels, workshops, and lectures across the country. We also support a few key podcasting festivals around the country—Podtales is a new grassroots fan festival that we've not only donated to financially, but we've introduced them to sponsors, and planned a live show around in the hopes of introducing our own fans to the event. We also really love Podfest, which is an Orlando-based education-centric event. Over the last two years, I've somehow become the organizer for their fiction education track, and I really feel strongly that this is the path toward bringing greater professionalism and visibility of audio dramas to the world. It is also how the top peers in the medium will find new ways to challenge ourselves and improve as creators.

Finally, we would like to see indie podcasters make money so they can do things like pay their cast and earn a living. To this end we need to rely on and support podcasting apps that are innovating and laying down the path for this to happen, which in our current belief is Himalaya. (If you've never heard a podcast before, download the Himalaya app. It's easy to use and they care about creators.)

If someone is interested in creating their own audio drama, what are the steps needed from creating a script to uploading to a platform?

To make an audio drama podcast they will need a microphone, a DAW (editing software), a computer to edit on, and an idea that they can pull off with their current resources. If they want to write a zombie epic with dozens of characters, they may need to think of creative ways to find those dozens of actors if they don't have friends who would be willing to act. Production is like putting together a big puzzle with unlimited pieces at your disposal and no corner pieces. It can be as tall or wide as your ideas will take you, and ultimately it comes down to your creativity in putting together a means to bring your story to life. If you only have access to one actor you can have them be all of the characters. If you are afraid of foley (the art of creating sound effects), you can get free sound effects and music on freesound.org simply by crediting the sound effects you use. We give an hour long panel on this topic in greater detail and you can hear a slightly dated version of the lecture here:

https://libertyendures.libsyn.com/how-to-make-an-audio-drama-podcast 

In a very basic, very short answer: Write a script, find the resources, record the actors. Edit the actors in your software, add sound effects, adjust volume levels (mixing/mastering), and upload them to a website like Libsyn, who distributes your show to all of the places you want to be.

How cheap can someone create a quality episode?

The first season of our first podcast, Liberty: Critical Research was produced for right around $100 for 10 episodes. However, that's not taking into account the most important cost: time. We spent around 15-20 hours per episode back in those days between myself and Kaitlin. We were a finalist for a Parsec Award so I'd like to believe that it was fairly good quality, though I look back on it and cringe when I think of how far we've come.

How much should they pay the voice actors? 

Whatever you can afford to pay actors while still producing your show.

If you're creating an audio drama podcast, the odds are 99.9% that you're not a big budget studio and probably cannot afford to pay your actors nearly as much as they are worth. The reality is that you are not going to be able to pay every actor $335 dollars per day (SAG rates**) for being on your show, or you will likely find that you can no longer afford to produce new content. Talk with your cast, set mutually agreed upon expectations, treat them like the rockstars of your show that they are. Go out of your way to promote their new projects, share their V.O. reel with paying gigs you come across, recommend them to paying gigs, give them clear and open communication at all times, reply to their emails, send thank you emails or letter, give them free merchandise (if you make merch), treat them with honor, and above all else make them sound as good as you can by finishing your podcast in the best possible quality.

Unlike film, you're producing free content, and since you most likely cannot afford SAG rates ($335/day + breaks + food) do everything you can to do right by your team.

Where do they find talented but reasonably priced actors? 

Great places to find talent are the Audio Drama Audition Facebook group, casting call, and any of the dozens of voice acting websites online. You can also try craigslist, local theater troupes, or by asking friends and family. Many of our cast members had never acted before. Having them read an audition (which clearly indicates the pay) is the best way to find if the talent is right for your project.

Can you make a living by producing audio dramas?

It is currently possible to make a living producing audio dramas, it's just impractical for many. It's hardly a secret that the real money in podcasting is made in comedy and true crime. They are infinitely easier to produce, they are often times easier to write, they have a much wider audience, and they require many less moving parts. That being said, how can someone make a living creating audio dramas? 

• Live Shows ?— If your show is extremely popular and has a small cast (i.e. Nightvale) you can create a touring live show. Very few productions can pull this off as a means of making money and if your show is popular enough to do this, chances are that you are already making money in other way.
• Merchandise ?— By either creating your own designs or hiring (and paying) an artist, can create and sell shirts, posters, pins, and stickers. This is generally not sustainable in and of itself unless you're a mainstream show, though exceptions exist. For instance, our premium ($) story - The White Vault: Artifact has remarkably great sales and, as a digital story we distribute ourselves via MP3 on our website, it has a wonderful profit margin.
• Cross Medium Sales ?— Write books. This is a similarly difficult venture and book sales have their own entire process that I'm not as qualified to discuss outside of graphic novels. I probably have some of the highest book sales for an indie audio drama (outside of Locke and Key and maybe The Black Farm), though because I chose to create graphic novels & comics, my profit margins do not reflect this. I'd also add that there can be minimal crossover in viewership/listenership across mediums, so often times you will make money on your book despite being a podcaster.
• Licensing ?— Sell or license the TV/film/book rights to your IP for a sum of money. This is where many feel the real money is currently made, but it's not for everyone. If your show is successful, you will probably get random low-ball offers so always try to talk to someone more experienced in this realm before signing your project's soul away.
• Crowdsourcing ?— Currently the most viable way for an independent audio drama creator to make a living is to raise funds through Patreon, Kickstarter, or Indiegogo. It's important to note that you have to have some margin of success before you launch into a Kickstarter or Indiegogo, but that you can start a Patreon right with your first episode, or even in advance of it. We are almost entirely funded by our fans through Patreon and Himalaya+ (which is very similar to Patreon). Note that just like merchandise and live shows, these platforms (except Himalaya and Kickstarter) will not advertise your campaign and you should not expect people to come across your page and magically donate, unless you sent them there via marketing, press, or social media. This is our page as an example, and we're in the top 1% of Patreon: https://patreon.com/LibertyPodcast 
• Sponsorship ?— You can seek out relevant sponsors for your show, or work with a company/agent who will do this for you. On a good day you can realistically expect $40-$50 per 1,000 downloads (known as CPM or Cost per Mil). For most, $20 per 1,000 downloads is the norm. Downloads being how many downloads a single episode gets within 30 days from release.
• Platforms ?— Some platforms will pay for exclusivity or temporary exclusivity, such as Luminary or Stitcher. We have declined all such offers to date, but we know that there can be some real money made from this. Also, some shows like EOS10 have gotten a degree of fan backlash over this. Similarly, some platforms like Himalaya and RadioPublic will sometimes pay you based on your successes on their platform despite not being exclusive. We're not holding our breath, but hopefully one day Spotify follow suit and compensates podcasters the same way they compensate musicians.

I think it's also very relevant to say that no one in audio drama is living the big life as a celebrity, with mansions and multiple cars from money made on their audio drama podcast. The most successful creators either live frugally, have a salary from one of the big companies (i.e. Marvel, Wondery), or have other sources of income that sustain them.

How many listeners or downloads do you need in order to attract sponsorship?

It's never too early to seek sponsorship. That being said, if you have 3,000 downloads (per episode, within 30 days of release) you will see more success than if you have less than 3,000. It also becomes financially worth your time to do ($60-$150 per episode if you find a sponsor!). Various sponsors and agencies will approach shows perceived to be at the 5k, 10k, and 30k levels. I'd also caution shows about their format and choice of sponsors, as it can be really jarring to hear about the new McChicken-burger on a show that takes place in a vegan feudal Japan run by hampsters, or an ad for socks that cuts into the middle of figuring out who the murderer is.

Once you have enough downloads, how do you approach sponsors?

Similarly to the above, finding brands that you feel match your show or that your audience would identify with is the key. Approach them with a polite email, briefly explain your offering, and move on. You'll be lucky to get a response, and it can be very difficult to find a company that fits well with your show. We are really big on sound quality, and our sponsors have been companies like Rode Microphones and Klipsch Audio, who pride themselves on quality audio.

How do you create an audience from zero to enough to be attractive to financial supporters or sponsorships?

The biggest keys to success in audio drama (or podcasting in general) are to have a compelling story, to have acceptable audio quality, and to release regularly & consistently. Every two to three weeks is ideal. If you advertise your show in new places (and the same ones) you will further improve your odds at faster growth. The more you create, the better you and your team will become, and the better your show will consistently be.

Are you open to pitches from other writers? How do they submit to you?

As a two-person team (writer/producer), we are not open to pitches and only produce our own ideas. However, there are many teams on the 'Audio Drama Hub' Facebook group that will sometimes accept pitches or offer full-production of your story as a paid service.

How do we contact you if we would like to collaborate, sponsor your programming or hire you as a consultant?

Feel free to contact me via twitter as I'm always #amediting #amcreating #ampodcasting @AtriusEndures

You can find more about me at TravisVengroff.com and more about my works at: 

TheWhiteVault.com

VASTHorizonpodcast.com

LibertyEndures.com

** = for updated SAG rates, visit - https://www.sagaftra.org/production-center/contract/802/rate-sheet/document