Podcast Transcript: 3 Tips on Managing Down to Be a High Performing Leader

Build High Performing Teams Podcast - Episode 010: 

3 Tips on Managing Down to Be a High Performing Leader

[00:00:02] Welcome. I'm Anna Oakes. I've been working with organizations, teams, and leaders for over 20 years, and there are two things that I am passionate about: high performance and restoring humanity back into our work and our workplaces. Join me as we discuss topics that make a difference in your day-to-day and your year-to-year for both leaders and their teams. These are the tools and conversations to build and sustain high performance. Welcome to the Build High Performing Teams Podcast.

Hello, HIPOs. (aka High Performers) Welcome to an episode where we're going to talk about “managing down.” I really love that phrase. “Managing up” means how you manage your leader. “Managing down” means how you manage the people that report to you. 

I don't love the hierarchical nature of that, that they are beneath you somehow. But, really what we're talking about is working with the people who report to you. So if you are a leader who has people-leader responsibilities - not all leaders do. Or if you are a leader of influence within your organization and you work with people on cross teams, things like that. Maybe you're a project manager who needs to give people direction? I think you're going to find some things that are helpful in this. And this is a question that comes up often with individuals that I coach. So these are leaders and executives from startups to Fortune 500 companies. These are people who are just like you and I - humans who are trying to figure it out. And a lot of times, I'll hear questions about this.

[00:01:36] Just yesterday I got a Vox (which is a little walkie talkie app that I use with my clients)...I got a Vox from a client and they were saying, “thank you for the coaching the past week” about them managing more effectively up and down. And specifically feeling more empowered with their people, that their people were more engaged in the work that they were doing because of the way that they were now leading and "managing down." And that they themselves were feeling better in their work because they were managing more effectively down.

So I'm going to talk about the three things that you can do. And look, there are a million things you can do here. There's no one silver bullet way. But these are three tips that I have to how you can more effectively manage down.

The first one is all about your leadership. I want you to think about what your role is. I think as leaders, so often we are misguided in what our role is. I interviewed Marissa Orr for the podcast recently. She's the author of the book Lean Out. It's a great book whether you are a Sheryl Sandberg fan of the book Lean In. I think they both have something to contribute to this crazy world of work that we live in. 

But one of the quotes that I like in her (Orr) chapter called "It's the System, Stupid." She's talking a little bit about the system itself. She says that people often disagree on what success looks like. And yes, that happens a lot. She goes on to say, "Multiply this lack of clarity across thousands of people doing thousands of different jobs, all with intangible, ambiguous long-term outcomes. It becomes incredibly difficult to draw clear lines between the work people do and its business impact. High performance is hard to detect and low performance is easy to cover up. It's virtually impossible to discern any person's impact. A strategy could appear awful in the short-term, but it turns out to be transformational in the long-term. If the person responsible is evaluated before the results had time to unfold, at best she'll get no credit for her brilliant contributions. And at worst, she'll be blamed for its supposed failure. In today's workplaces, it's hard to tell who's doing good work or even who's doing work at all."

[00:03:56] It's big stuff. So that just shows that the system in and of itself is flawed. That means that--and I'm not blaming any certain company because this exists at every organization that I've worked with, because humans are involved, whether it's a startup or a Fortune 500 company--you have to take your role as a leader seriously. If you have accepted the position of leader, then you are responsible for these people in one way or another. And you've really got to know your role with that. 

And that means that you've got to take that responsibility seriously in terms of coaching more than you are playing. And that goes to the player-coach model of, "I'm a sales leader and I've got my own quota to fulfill and I'm going to, maybe coach my sales staff on the side.” No, no. The bulk of your job is coaching and maybe a little bit of playing. And that means we've got to think about restructuring our work differently. 

So if you're in a big organization, really start pushing back on the amount of time in each of those distinct roles. If you're a startup or a founder and entrepreneur, you have the power today to shift the way that things are going. So take that role seriously. That also means that you cannot give away your power. And please don't misunderstand that. I'm not saying you have all the power. I'm not. You have some of the power. In fact, you have a very important role in that power. Which is to set the tone, to manage the work and make sure that your team continues to be successful.

[00:05:30] That's the power I don't want you to give away. A lot of times leaders will express concern over delegating work. They think, "Oh, if I give them that, they're going to think they're just doing my job." Or how much work to give away. Like, "Oh, well, maybe I'll just let them do this portion of the work." You know, I am a very collaborative and open leader. And as much time as my team has to spend on things, I want them on that. Yes, I do believe that people have their specific area that they're making their highest impact. 

But I don't believe in staying in your lane. I believe in going where the energy is needed. And that means leveraging the diverse skill sets of your people. But you can do that without giving away your power.

So keep your power as a leader. Don't give that all away. You can't lob it over the wall and say, "It's up to you guys.". No, you cannot lob it over the wall. But that also doesn't mean hoarding your work and saying these are the things that my team cannot work on.

One of the examples that I had recently was a leader who is experiencing quite a bit of change and frustration within their organization. And they do have just a few people who are considered high-potential, high-performer people on their team who have not yet quit. So they're looking to these individuals and thinking, "How can I keep them engaged in the work?" 

Well, the way that you're going to keep them engaged in the work is by having honest conversations with them. Now, honest has boundaries too. So honest conversation means that you're going to give them the detail about why something's important or why something's changing. But a lesson that I've learned in my personal journey as a leader is that you do need to keep your commentary to a minimum. And that doesn't mean don't be honest. That means there is a line that you need to draw as a leader that you are not going to overshare. Because in this situation that I'm sharing, there's a lot of change. And that means it's affecting the leader, too. It's affecting their performance. It can affect their career. It can affect them having a job in another month or two. 

So, as much as that leader is fearful and nervous, they cannot overshare and transfer their fear and nerves onto their people. So I think there's a difference between giving people a clear view of what's ahead and why something's important to work on, and really instilling fear in people. I am all about reducing the amount of fear in our lives as humans, and since we spend so much time at work, that means we've got to reduce the amount of fear that we are encountering at work, too. 

[00:08:08] So, my advice back to this leader is: engage them in conversations. 

What do you need to work on as an organization right now? Great. Pick that one or those two things and go to them and say, "Here are my ideas on why these two things are important. What are your ideas on how we can make these things successful?" Get them engaged in the conversation. If that employee, if that team member somehow leaves that conversation and says, "That leader just gave me all their work. I don't know what they're doing all day." --That's on them. That is not on you as a leader. If you're trying to provide the environment that is going to allow them to contribute, you are not at fault.

The difference would be if she lobbed that idea over the wall and said, "Hey, here's the problem and you have to go fix it," and doesn't really give them any guidance or any assistance. And I tell people that they need to add a little color as to what's going on, but let them figure out how to do it.

So we talked about how the leadership role is one of balance. 

Integrating your employees, but also not leaving them on their own to sort of figure things out without any guidance from you. In order to do that, you have to look at the way that you're structuring the work and the way that your work is structured. How do you make sure that you have the capacity as a leader to make sure that you're being the active, engaged leader that they need? [9.0s] So look at the structure. I think one of the best ways for you as a leader to ensure that you're structuring this correctly is to spend time on you, do your inner work. And that means a lot of different things to a lot of people. If you're spiritual, delve into more of the spiritual side and make sure that you are feeling grounded in who you are and in what you believe. Because if we are at all skittish--and I would certainly say I'm skittish at certain times in my life. I'm very honest with my team. When I'm going through something or when I'm processing something emotional, I'm very honest. So please don't misunderstand that I expect you to be made of Teflon. But when you are overly skittish, they're going to completely pick up on that.

 [00:10:34] So a few ways that I personally use or suggest to clients that I work with is to read books that you respect. Read books that are going to challenge the way you're thinking, that are going to give you new ideas. [5.7s] My caution for you is to not go too overboard. You could read so many books that you actually don't start to institute any of the practices. [00:10:59]Maybe one thing that you could challenge yourself on over the next month, is to pick one book to read. Get it done in the next two weeks, and then the following two weeks of the month, spend time thinking about that book. What did that book tell you? Go back and read the underlined, highlighted notes that you put in the margin. Really absorb that book and decide which of these practices make the most sense for my organization, for my team, for my leadership, and then put them into practice. [29.6s]

So reading is a big one for me. Meditation is another big one. I know you've all heard it, I use the Insight Timer app. I love it. I love that I can pick a themed meditation journey, sign up for that, whether it's a week or two weeks. And I can follow along with that. Let's call it 15 minutes a day. You aren't going to be thinking about things besides what the meditation app is saying. I know you are, but you can give yourself permission by saying "I'm thinking about X. I'm thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner. I'm thinking about my big presentation tomorrow." Just acknowledge that you're thinking about that and then get back to the meditation. I'm not gonna give you all the statistics. If you guys have not been living under a rock for the last couple of years, you have read the research on why meditation is important, but I do believe it's something that you should give 5 to 15 minutes a day on. At least in order to form a habit. So we've got reading and meditation.

 [00:12:34] Another one is accountability. Find accountability, whether that is a local meetup, a group on Eventbrite. Find a group that's talking about issues that are important to you. We've got Startup Week, Milwaukee coming up where a lot of founders, entrepreneurs, or even people who are interested in thinking about creating their own company, having a side hustle, etc., are going to get together. These are like-minded people, right? Not in totality. They all don't think alike, but they have a common interest here. So they're coming together.

Find people who have common interests with you and spend time with them. You can do that in very informal ways. You can also do that in more formal ways. I have a mastermind that I've been a part of for the past year. That is a paid mastermind. Next year, I will be doing an unpaid mastermind with many other entrepreneurs that I had become close with. So that group looks like two things for me. That group is inspiration and accountability. I am constantly inspired to hear what people are doing. Most of the people in this group, I would say almost all of them are doing something different than I am. We have very keen overlap areas. I think it motivates me to say, "They're not in my space. What are they doing over there that I could start adopting over here? Oh, I never thought about it that way." We start to think about things differently than we did before. So that's really where the inspiration comes from and my curiosity gets nurtured that way.

And then also accountability. Sometimes I'm thinking: I committed last month and I said I was gonna get this done. Now, I'm in a place in my life where I'm not just going to go do that because I said that I would do it. I want to make sure that I'm actually motivated to do it, that I have the resources, both emotionally and mentally right now and where I'm at to actually complete the task that I committed to the group on. But that does make me think about it. Why haven't I got it done? I said I was going to do it, and now here I am. I have a timetable because I made this commitment. So it's a nice little checkbox every month, every two weeks, however often you meet. You come back to that--Why haven't I done it? First of all, why did I say it was going to do it? Is the motivation and the intent behind that pure? What has shifted? Maybe I need to go back to the group and ask for help. Maybe I need to go back to the group and say, "Hey guys, I said that, but I'm backing that up, or I'm changing that to this because of A, B, and C.".

The accountability there isn't for me to go do something that my heart's not into right now. The accountability is to actually talk through and understand myself. [7.0s] Why I have or have not made progress on that thing that I committed to the group. So I'm a huge fan of masterminds. I have some close friends who are executives. They are business owners or they work for other organizations and they are part of executive groups also. So look in your area to see if there are groups, paid groups that your organization can sponsor. Or if you're a small business owner, entrepreneur, that you are going to invest your time in. These groups can cost anywhere between five to ten thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars and upwards. But start somewhere. And don't think you need to jump to the big daddies that are paying a hundred grand a year unless you feel like that's really where you're at. But make sure that you're getting in the right group. These groups have application processes to make sure that you are not doing the exact same thing, but you're at around the same level in your leadership journey as the other people.

 [00:16:22] Make sure that that group that you're getting is going to be comfortable for you, but also stretch you enough. For me, I don't think I need to be in a mastermind right now with entrepreneurs or business owners who've been in business for 30 years and who have a team of 50. They're thinking about much different things than I am. Whereas in the group that I'm in, we all have about three to five employees, and we're still sort of in that startup mode. Let's call it three to eight years out in their journey. Which is also a very different group than if I was just getting started where I was four years ago. I think a group can also be very, very beneficial for you. Those are some resources that I would highly suggest to make sure that you are getting grounded in who you are.

Back to where we're at. We're talking about managing the people that report to you, "managing down." We've talked about the importance of leadership. The next tip that I will share is all about connection. If you are a people leader and you have accepted responsibility for this role, please take it seriously. If you don't, please go do something else. Because building a connection is key with your employees. You cannot be an absent parent anymore than you can be an absent leader. Those two things are not okay. You have a role, and maybe you found yourself in it by accident. A lot of corporations have rules that you can't get promoted, you can't really move up the ladder unless you're willing to take on people leadership. Maybe you felt like that was your only option. Well, you're still in it. [00:18:07]So now that you're in it, what are you going to do with it? You're going to make sure that you're looking at these human beings who are looking to you for guidance, support, encouragement, and resources, and you're going to be present with them. The way that you can give them the guidance, support, resources and encouragement that they need is by building connections with them, both individually and collectively as a whole.

A couple of strategies that people have used historically to build those connections are weekly team meetings. And I know for somebody who talks about how antiquated our work systems are out there, there's still something to be said about structure. As a parent of now 9-year-old twins, probably about at the age of two, I realized how important rhythm and structure were to them as little growing humans. I quickly started to realize that for somebody who flies by the seat of her pants, or at least did then, that structure was probably going to be really important for me too. So that structure and rhythm were just really important for me and really, for the past seven years, I've been on this journey of figuring out what type of structure and rhythm is important to me to feel the things that are fundamentally necessary for humans. Safety is really fundamental. Think of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs that we all learned about in school. Safety is really important. So how can I make sure that I feel like I have control over the situation, that I'm safe with what I'm doing, that I'm organized? Those are really important things that I get out of rhythm.

 [00:19:51] So as a leader of people, think about the same thing. What type of rhythm are you providing? Do they understand how often the team is going to get to connect as a whole? How often are they going to get to talk to each other? Do they understand what to expect in that team meeting? Does it change? If it's weekly, every other week do you talk about project updates and every other week you use for strategy and brainstorming? I'm a big fan of, if you have a team meeting, I don't want you to talk about anything, at least for too long in those team meetings that could be sent in an email or written update. And I know what you're going to say, "It's just going to create more email." Yeah, I get it. But if I could just read the update that you just gave and there's no contact or conversation that's needed, why are we talking about that in the meeting? Let's spend that precious time. Add up the amount of money in the room. What are the salaries of these individuals? How much time did they have to spend preparing for this meeting? How much time are they going to spend in the meeting? How much time are they going to spend after the meeting, talking about the meeting? How much time are they going to spend after the meeting, doing the things that they got on their to-do list from the meeting? That's a lot of money. So if we're getting people in a room like that to talk, let's make sure that it's to use each other's energy, to use each other's brainpower, to leverage curiosity and ideas that come from each other. I want to make sure that you guys are using that time really correctly so you can structure that team meeting. So team meetings are one thing. And again, I get it. Do we want to be meeting to death? Nope. Do we want to be emailed to death? Nope. But there is a time and a purpose for each of those things.

Another thing on the rhythm and the predictability for the humans that report to you is that they need that one-on-one connection. So how often are you going to be meeting with them one-on-one? And make that commitment.

 [00:21:50] I'm still getting back in the habit of that after not being a people leader and being out on my own for a few years. I'll be in my fourth year of going out on my own, but this is my first year where I'm leading people again. I had outsourced certain tasks and things over the first three years. But now I'm a people leader again and with the fluctuating demands of being a business owner and a mom and a people leader, I'm not perfect. Sometimes like last week, I had a therapist appointment. I missed my one-on-one with one of my team members. I was super upset and I felt frustrated that I missed it. But what I needed to do was just go to her and say "I'm really sorry that I missed that. This is conflicting, and can we move it to a place that is gonna work better for both of us?" Because at that time it was my end-of-day right before I pick up my kids from school. It's not a good time for me. It's a time where things get really smushed. So how could I move that meeting to the morning, so she knows she's important.

Not only is it important to make sure these one-on-ones happen, I would suggest weekly, but also to think about the content. And what are you talking about in those meetings? Now, here's where I would say there is a place and a time for the tactical updates. As their leader, you need to understand what they're working on. I'm a big believer in weekly update sheets. Whatever you call those. Pick a format for your team and go with it. What are they currently working on? What did they make progress on? What are they stuck on, and how do they need help? It can be a very simple sheet, but having that sheet and making sure that you're getting that weekly update from all of your team members gives you the important information you need as a leader, so that when you were in the elevator with your leader or with another entrepreneur or another business leader and they ask you how your team's going, you've got the information that you need.

Then you can spend your one-on-one talking about how they could get better in what they're doing. If they listed concerns on there or if they listed red flags or areas of help that they need you for, that is your time. That's what you're going to spend time in your one-on-one talking about. I think leaders don't want to be too tactical or be too overbearing and ask them for their list of all their things. Like, yeah, that's where it starts is talking about the actual work. And not just going, "Okay, thank you for the update." No. Let's talk about that work. What felt really good? What could you do differently next time to make it go more smoothly to you? What did you enjoy the least about that work? Reall taking the time to ask these these questions, these open-ended questions, so that people feel like they are getting not only support that they need from you, but the encouragement and the mentorship that they deserve from a leader. So that's your opportunity in those one-on-ones to give them.

 [00:24:45]Another trick I give about one-on-ones is if you're having them weekly, that's four times a month (I'll do the math for you). One of those meetings should be spent on the engagement of that person. Where we're not going to talk about tactical updates. We're just going to talk about you. We're going to talk about your overall career goals. We're going to talk about the goals that you have in your current role. It's really about that person. And if that sounds painful, sometimes it is.

The best leader I ever had started this practice with me, probably when I was in my late 20s, early 30s, and I hated that one. When we got to that one every month, I'd say, "We don't really need to do it today. Like, let's cancel." Nope. She was not having that. Nope. We were gonna have it. Finally, the only way she got me to go on these is because she promised to buy me a Bloody Mary, which I was a really big fan of at the time.

So she said she'd take me out for a Bloody Mary, and we just got to talk. We got to talk about how my life was going and how my partnership at the time was going (I wasn't married at the time). So what did that look like for me? And then after I got married, she was with me through my pregnancy with my twins. Sometimes we would talk about things like that, and that's okay. It's a good opportunity for us as leaders to stretch ourselves. We've got those historical masculine and feminine energies, but guess what? We've got both of those in us. We may just be nurturing one over the other. So think about what side of those energies that you're using. And can you take that one-on-one opportunity to show more of the alternative side? And this is going to be probably a side where you get to be more empathetic and you get to talk a little bit more about those personal things. But it's got a huge ROI.

 [00:26:37] The rhythm is really important for you, it's important for your team. And that's going to help you build one-on-one connection and it's going to help you build connection as a team. So outside of team meetings, outside of one-on-ones, I would also suggest social outings and fun things. I won't go too in-depth today on what those could look like. That really depends on the interests of your team and your budget. But please get creative, involve your team in the planning and execution of these events, and just be smart. If you're going to do something, do it with gusto. Like, this is what we're doing and here's why we're doing it, because I just want to spend time with you. I just really like you.

I ran into an old coworker of mine who's now a senior leader at a company, and I was at a beer garden with my husband and my kids were riding their bikes around. And he was there with his whole team and they were just having some drinks. And not everybody was drinking. But there was food and there were drinks. And they were just sitting in a park and they were laughing. It made me so happy watching him with a team, because we were on that really awesome team together where we had a great leader who was able to demonstrate to us what this looked like and how we could form that rhythm. So it was really cool to see him actually carrying on that rhythm and that flow for his people. And I could tell what a strong connection he had with his people. And it made me really, really happy.

So take the time to build connection, guys. And it's not always easy. I'm going to add that little caveat or asterisk that says: I get there are people on your team who you're not always going to be 100 percent cohesive with, that you are not going to flow with. But it is your job to figure out how to improve that flow.

And building the connection through one-on-ones, through teams and through outings is one way to improve that connection. If you don't do any of those things, the connection with that employee, the flow will never feel good. It will stay where it is or it will get worse. [13.7s] So build in that rhythm to build the connection.

 [00:28:43] The third tip for you in terms of managing down and making sure that you're doing this really effectively, is understanding the skills and strengths of your team. What is their highest and best use? What types of skills have they built in other roles, whether that was in school or other jobs? And what types of strengths do they have? You can do this by two things. [00:29:10]You can use an assessment. I'm a huge fan of Clifton Strengths. It's formerly known as Strengths Finder, and that's by Gallup. That's a great assessment. I use it with the majority of clients that I work with, because it really does start to tell me where their natural inclinations are, and where they're going to shine and be able to contribute the most to their work, and therefore get the most gratification from it.

So you can use assessments. Another way to do it is by just spending time and observing them. Now we've talked about building the connection. You can get a sense of skills and strengths by the one-on-ones and the team meetings and the outings, but you will never, ever get as much information as when you observe them.

We're near the time of year right now where people are completing end-of-year performance reviews. And it's always a fascinating question to ask a leader, how often did you see your employee in action this year? Where are you getting your data and information? So make sure that you're not only leveraging those connection points of the routine, but you're also building in times to observe them. And the other way to do that is having them observe you and other people and having conversations about that. What did they learn? What did they observe? It's just interesting to hear what their takeaways were. If you give a big presentation, what were their takeaways? What did they hear that you said? How did they think you prepared? What did they think the best next steps are? These are great ways to get them talking. And when they do that, and if you set up that conversation right, they're going to be illustrating their skills and strengths for you.

I think it's our job as a leader. Part of our role and obligation as a leader is to make sure we're giving them the experience and the exposure to different things. And that's different projects, that's watching us in our zone of genius, whatever that looks like. And that is intimidating to many of you out there who are leaders. Giving them access to you means that you are going to be more vulnerable than you were before.

 [00:31:24] I remember I gave a talk to our top hundred leaders in our organization, and I had two of my employees there. And often there were some of my staff in the room because it was really necessary. They were senior HR people and they were serving the executives who were in the room. They were business partners for them. So I had two people in the room and I got up to give this talk. This has literally never happened to me before, but I turned red. My throat started to constrict. I forgot what I was saying. I barely made it through the talk. And I remember thinking not only how disappointing and embarrassing that was because the top one hundred leaders of the organization were there, but also because my team was there. And I thought, I must just look like a total schmuck to them. But it created some amazing conversation with them about what happened to me. It was an opportunity for me to share my own journey of self-awareness. To go back and figure out what happened. And yeah, they did the whole like, no, no, no, you did great. But now really tell me the truth. We have to talk about the impact that I just made on the entire team by bombing that talk. And so then we didn't only just keep it to the two people who were in the room, we took it back to the team. And I was the one who said, I didn't do a great job. I didn't represent this team or my ideas or our ideas very effectively. Here's what happened.

But it gave us a chance to talk about it and learn from that. So there's that experience and exposure, not just in the moment, but afterwards. And here's what happened. Let's go back to connection. I was vulnerable, which is an amazing leadership strength. An amazing leadership trait is for you just to display vulnerability, to show that you are human and that making mistakes, not only will they happen, but they're okay, and you can learn from that failure. But if you are not ever showing them this, you're missing out on opportunities for them to learn from you and by you. Making sure that you've got that exposure is really important.

I've talked about the importance of leadership and knowing your role, not giving away your power too much. We've talked about building connection both one-on-one and as a team, and we've talked about understanding their skills and strengths. So I hope as you think about how you can manage down more effectively, how you can lead my team more effectively? These three core tenants are not the only tenants out there, but the three that I think are really important and can span a lot of good things in your leadership career, are things that you could focus on.

I encourage you guys, get connected to me on Instagram, through the web page, through the blog. Leave a review here--I want to hear how these have served you. And I want to hear what additional questions you have. That's where these conversations come from, are the questions that I get from my clients and from the readers and listeners out there. So I want to thank you for following along and wishing you all peace and progress on your journey until next time.

Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Build High Performing Teams Podcast. Stay in the know by subscribing to this podcast, downloading all your favorite episodes, and leaving a review on your favorite podcast app. Lets get connected on BuildHighPerformingTeams.com. Until I talk to you next, sending you peace and progress.