The Pain Cave: Why Founders Must Sell to Find PMF with Robert Snyder

This week we dive into an incredible interview with Rob Snyder , Founder of Waffle , Reframe and (imho) the foremost expert on FINDING PMF.

We dove right into why so many founders get stuck in what Rob calls "the pain cave" – that miserable place where you've built something but can't seem to find customers who want it.

Rob's insight? Most founders have it completely backwards. (Check out the full interview at Founder Led Sales)

You cannot validate your idea without selling it. Period.

The traditional startup playbook tells you to research first, validate your idea, and then start selling later. As Rob puts it, "That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard."

Why? Because selling IS research – it's the only way to truly understand what customers want and need. Everything else is just theory.

Many Founders avoid sales like the plague. They'll do almost anything to delay getting on those calls – more product development, another redesign, attending conferences, fundraising meetings – anything but facing potential rejection.

Rob calls this "Snyder's Law" – anything a founder can use as an excuse to avoid sales, they will use as an excuse to avoid sales.

But here's what actually works: getting on calls with potential customers as early as possible, being genuinely curious about what they're trying to accomplish, and seeing if you can help them.

It's not about pitching or persuading people to buy something they don't want. It's about discovering demand that already exists and figuring out how to serve it.

Think about that for a second. The goal isn't to convince someone to want your product. The goal is to find people who already have a problem your product can solve and help them solve it.

"Demand is basically the substrate of everything. It's the thing underlying why people pull. Why do people buy things at all? It's not because we have pretty software. It's not because we've poked and prodded at their pain points and evangelized a great solution. People buy things when they are trying to accomplish something in their lives."

This completely flips the traditional view of sales on its head. Instead of pushing your product onto prospects, you're looking for signs that they're pulling information from you – asking questions, wanting more details, eager to bring in colleagues, following up unprompted.

When customers start pulling, that's when you know you're onto something real.

What I've seen repeatedly is that founders who excel at sales aren't necessarily "great salespeople" in the traditional sense. They're just deeply curious about customer problems and honest about whether they can solve them.

So how do you actually do this in practice? Rob suggests:

1. Start having 5-10 conversations every week with potential customers
2. Don't try to be "salesy" – just say you're working on something and would love to chat
3. In the conversation, focus on understanding what they're trying to accomplish
4. Watch for signs of "pull" – are they eager to learn more?
5. Keep iterating until you find a repeatable pattern where people consistently pull

When a pattern emerges where you can predict which types of customers will respond positively to your pitch, that's when you're approaching product-market fit. And only then should you consider making your first sales hire.

The mistake I see over and over is founders hiring sales teams way too early, often due to investor pressure. As Rob points out:

"Investors are asking 'how does this company grow faster?' but what founders hear is 'you should hire a VP of Sales right now.'"

Hiring salespeople before you have a repeatable process "pretty much guarantees that you won't figure out the repeatable process because now you're onboarding people and managing people and your time is spent on things that aren't the thing that matters."

I see this all the time. A founder raises money, feels pressure to scale, hires a VP Sales, and then wonders why their sales engine still isn't working. The answer is simple: you can't outsource product-market fit.

Here's what founders need to understand: startups don't follow a linear path. They evolve through the process of selling and serving customers. You'll discover some customers love you who you thought would, and others hate you who you thought would love you.

This constant feedback loop shapes your business in ways you couldn't have anticipated. And that's the point – your job as a founder isn't to validate that your original idea was right. It's to figure out what "right" actually is.

So if you're currently stuck in the pain cave, stop looking for shortcuts. Stop avoiding sales. Start having those conversations, be genuinely curious, and pay attention to where customers are pulling for more.

Because the only way out of the pain cave is through sales.

See you soon!

Seth

PS: If you want to learn more about how to master Founder Led Sales and build a sustainable revenue engine, join our free community at Founder Led Sales where we share battle-tested frameworks, resources, and connect you with other founders on the same journey.