New independence referendum imminent despite Johnson’s resistance, says Scottish minister
Βy Yannis Andritsopoulos, London Correspondent for the Greek daily newspaper Ta Nea ([email protected])
A referendum on Scottish independence will take place in the next couple of years whether Boris Johnson wants it or not, according to the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, Europe and External Affairs, Michael Russell.
A vote on independence “could take place within the six months of the legislation passing,” Mr Russell, who is also the SNP president, told Greek daily newspaper Ta Nea in an exclusive interview.
Russell said he is convinced that a referendum will be held in the next couple of years.
His remarks came as Boris Johnson rejected calls for another independence poll. The British Prime Minister suggested that a second referendum should not be staged until at least 2055. His comments prompted a furious response from Mr Russell.
“It is a ludicrous position for him to be in. He just sounds completely out of touch. If the people want a referendum, they will in the end have a referendum. Nothing that Boris Johnson says will stop that happening,” he said.
He added that “the idea of a referendum in 2055 is just nonsensical. It's a stupid thing to say and it really diminishes (Johnson) – if it is possible to diminish him any further.”
He went on to attack the UK government for the way it treats Scotland. “We are dealing with people who are making it up as they go along, because they are very frightened. Because they are frightened about the exercise of democracy. And when people are frightened of democracy, they are in the wrong,” he said.
Mr Russell appeared confident that the independence referendum “will take place.” He explained: “We will go into the next election in May having published the last part of the referendum legislation and if the Scottish people endorse it in the election it will happen”.
Asked if there are ways to override Westminster and secure a vote on independence, he replied: “There’s no sense in me telling Boris Johnson what I would do next, because he would simply try and anticipate that”.
He added, however, that the Scottish government is still considering a legal challenge to test whether Holyrood could stage a referendum without Westminster’s approval. “We have always said that that might be a possibility,” he stressed.
Mr Russell claimed that “Brexit is going to impoverish Scotland and the rest of the UK” and confirmed that if Scotland becomes independent, its government will apply to join the EU. “That’s the policy of the government. We've observed the acquis (communautaire) for almost 50 years, so there is no queue which we are at the back of. We're obviously very close to being able to join on that basis, but we will have to go through the process,” he said.
He then called on the Greek government to ‘guide’ and ’support’ Scotland on its way to EU membership. “We hope that you will work with us as we join the EU to support a new member, to guide us on our way,” he said.
Mr Russell also confirmed his support for the return of the Parthenon Marbles to Greece. “I have been a long-standing supporter of the repatriation of the Parthenon Marbles and I hope to see them at some stage in situ, in the (Acropolis) Museum,” he said.
Full interview follows:
Q: You were born in Kent to an English mother and a Scottish father. However, I take it you don't have an inner conflict about where Scotland belongs; either in the UK or out of it. Is that right?
A: No, because there is something we call the social union. It's analogous, I suppose, to what people in Ireland feel. There's been a huge amount of mixing in these countries. My mother was brought up in Edinburgh in actual fact, but to add to the strange story, she met my father when she was going to have her passport renewed, because he was a British consular official in Iraq after the war. There is a bit of internationalism, there is a bit of mixing together. And I don't expect that that social union will be affected in any way by Scottish independence. There is an old saying in the national movement that independence will rid England of a surly lodger and get a good neighbour. And that's how it seems to me.
Q: The SNP is pushing hard for another referendum on Scottish independence. However, Boris Johnson has said categorically that he would refuse to transfer the necessary powers to Holyrood to legislate for a new referendum. He went as far as to say that a new referendum should be allowed no earlier than 2055. What is your response to that?
A: Prime Ministers come and go. Democracy remains constant. It is a ludicrous position for him to be in. Other prime ministers have been in this position. Margaret Thatcher was very resistant to Scottish devolution for example and the establishment of the Scottish parliament, she said there was no demand for it. If the people want a referendum they will in the end have a referendum. And nothing that Boris Johnson says will stop that happening. He just sounds completely out of touch. He doesn't sound as if he understands the situation. And he certainly doesn't appear to understand that 17 opinion polls in Scotland in a row have shown a majority for independence.
I don't think he's particularly good at his job, but he's certainly not very good at understanding what's happening North of the border. So it doesn't put me up or down. The idea of a referendum in 2055 is just nonsensical. Just imagine the reaction that he would have had and Brexiteers would have had, had the EU said there cannot be a referendum on membership to the EU and secondly if there can be one it's another 50 years. They would have laughed that out of court. It's a stupid thing to say and it really diminishes him, if it is possible to diminish him any further.
Q: Boris Johnson also noted that Nicola Sturgeon promised the 2014 referendum would be a "once-in-a-generation event". What has changed since then?
A: Politicians use that term quite often. I think Jeremy Corbyn talked about the 2019 election as being once-in-a-generation. Politicians say these things. But in actual fact we understand that democracies require votes from time to time. What has changed I think is quite significant; when I was re-elected to the Scottish parliament in 2016 I stood on a manifesto as all my colleagues did which said if Scotland was taken out of the EU against its will that would be justification for another referendum. We said so, we told the voters that. The voters supported us in that. So that alone would say that something has changed.
When you actually look at how the UK government treats referenda, you realise that treatment of Scotland is very different. For example, the Northern Irish protocol and the Northern Irish arrangement for Brexit builds in the possibility that after seven years there can be essentially a parliamentary vote on changing that status. So why would the Northern Irish be able to do that every seven years and Scotland would have to wait every 50 years; it just doesn't make sense. We are dealing with people who are making it up as they go along because they are very frightened. Because they are frightened about the exercise of democracy. And when people are frightened of democracy they are in the wrong.
Q: If the UK government insists on not allowing a referendum to take place, how will you respond?
A: It will take place. If people want a referendum there will be a referendum. We will go into the next election in May, having published the last part of the referendum legislation and if the Scottish people endorse it in the election it will happen. And that's simply that. I do not assume for a moment that Boris Johnson faced with that will continue to say no. But as far as I am concerned there will be a referendum. If the people of Scotland vote for it, there will be one.
Q: Are there ways to override Westminster and secure a referendum?
A: I don't think there's any sense in me telling Boris Johnson what I would do next. Because he would simply try and anticipate that. But I postulate for your readers - you're in a newspaper that serves a nation where democracy was founded - if people vote for something they will have that thing. And that's it.
Q: Would you consider a legal challenge to test whether Holyrood could stage a referendum without Westminster’s approval?
A: We have always said that that might be a possibility. But I'm not going to go into detail of any of the things that will take place. The next step will take place is what I will talk about and the next step will be an election. Amongst other things, our manifesto (includes) the opportunity to hold a referendum on independence and we know that presently the majority of the Scottish people would support that.
Q: Do you think the majority of the Scottish people back Scottish independence?
A: Well, the opinion polls will tell us that that is the case. There have been 17 opinion polls in a row now that show that independence is the preference of the majority of Scots. I think that says something.
Q: Realistically speaking, when do you think an independence referendum will take place?
A: It could take place within the six months of the legislation passing and I think that's realistic. I'm not going to be tying down the exact date, because it will depend on when the parliament meets again. Covid has restrained matters a bit on that. We'll have to make slightly different arrangements. We suspended work on this during the pandemic; we're still very much in the midst of it. So I'm not going to set a date on it. But it is clear that people will be asked to vote for the referendum at the next Scottish parliament election. Should they do so it will then follow, and follow at as an earlier date as we can arrange.
Q: Are you convinced it will take place soon, say in the next couple of years?
A: Oh yes.
Q: No matter if Boris Johnson wants it or not?
A: Yes. It will take place. You can't say to people you can never vote on something. That just strikes me as a ludicrous proposition.
Q: You have repeatedly spoken out against Brexit. Why is Brexit bad for Scotland?
A: Just look around you at the moment. Essentially what we predicted alas is taking place. Brexit is very bad for Scotland first of all democratically, because we didn't vote for it. Secondly, economically, we can see already the barriers to trade that have been erected because we are a third country. I can see in my own constituency here there are businesses that are already in dire straits. This is going to impoverish Scotland and the rest of the UK. The reality is this is an economic disaster.
Q: If Scotland becomes independent, will its government apply to join the EU?
A: Yes, we will. That is the policy of the government. And we understand the chapters of accession and we know what we have to do. We are in a pretty unique position. We've observed the acquis (communautaire) for almost 50 years so there is no queue which we are at the back of. We're obviously very close to being able to join on that basis, but we will have to go through the process.
Q: Wouldn’t EU membership create a hard border in the UK, this time between Scotland and England?
A: No, it wouldn't. First of all, there will be no people border because the Common Travel Area will continue to exist as it exists with Ireland. But more importantly, any hard border would be only as a result of a decision by the English government, not by the decision of Scotland, because we would be in the EU so it would be essentially the same as an external border as Ireland has. That border is operating porously in Ireland at the present moment, so we would expect the same to happen.
Q: Thousands of Greeks live in Scotland. Many of them feel less welcome in the UK after Brexit, and many others who want to move here in the future will be unable to do so under the new immigration system. What is your message to Greece and the Greek people?
A: I would like Greek citizens and all other EU citizens to come here and to contribute. We are very much in favour of freedom of movement. We are a small country, with a small population and an ageing population. We need incoming labour, particularly in the rural parts of Scotland. We also know many people who have made good lives here and they've contributed greatly to the community. I have Greek friends who live here. As a result of which, we want freedom of movement to be reestablished, that will come when we are a member of the EU. We very much welcome people and I think most EU citizens find that atmosphere different in Scotland and much more inclusive and welcoming.
Q: This year Greece marks the 200-year anniversary of the Greek War of Independence, when Greeks rose up against Ottoman rule. As a representative of a party that values the idea of national independence, do you have a message for Greeks regarding this anniversary and the importance of independence in the 21st century?
A: We have a peaceful democratic process underway for independence which we are sure will result in becoming a sovereign state and willingly pooling that sovereignty as Greece has done in membership of the EU. So we would see Greece as an example in that regard, willingly pooling sovereignty having been through difficult times and even within living memory having been through a military coup d'état, you have followed a democratic path, joined the EU and benefited from it. So the first message I would have is I think solidarity with and support for Greece and its celebrations and we want to join in with them.
The second message is that we recognise the similarities between peoples; we visited each other a lot, we know each other well and we want to have that peaceful relationship right across Europe. And therefore we hope that you will work with us as we join the EU to support a new member, to guide us on our way.
Q: You are also an author and you have also worked as a television producer and director – say that the Scottish independence case is the main plot of a non-fiction book or a based-on-a-true-story film; what ending should we expect?
A: Oh it will be the happiest of endings. We will all live happily ever after. With all our neighbours. This will be a novel with a happy ending.
Q: Many politicians in the UK and worldwide have called for the return of the Parthenon Marbles to Greece. Would you support this cause?
A: I am on record as supporting that in the long term. I can't do so as a government minister, but as an individual member I think I actually moved the first motion in the Scottish parliament on the return of the Marbles. And indeed I once went to interview the current Earl of Elgin in his house to talk about the Marbles and I reviewed a very good book on the Marbles some years ago in my role as a writer and journalist. I have been a long-standing supporter of the repatriation of the Parthenon Marbles and I hope to see them at some stage in situ, in the (Acropolis) Museum.
This interview was published in the Greek daily newspaper Ta Nea (www.tanea.gr) on 23 January 2021.
? 2021 Yannis Andritsopoulos and Ta Nea All Rights Reserved