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Have you ever had the experience of working with someone and they just didn't “get” you? They do all the things that wind you up, put you off, and drive you nuts. And, have you ever worked with someone, and you just didn't “get” them? You couldn't figure out what made them tick, and you know that you were underwhelming, as a manager and leader for them.

Of course you have. We all have.

So why do those situations keep happening? Particularly when we’ve also experienced the opposite – great working relationships that soar. Our working relationships are fundamental, if not critical, to our success and happiness.

Now imagine if you could keep your best relationships humming along for as long as possible. Imagine if you could contain the dysfunction of the messy ones so they’re less painful and more productive. Imagine if you could reset your solidly-OK-relationships so that when they wobble, they could more quickly get back on track.

Well, in his latest book, How To Work with (Almost) Anyone, internationally bestselling author Michael Bungay Stanier writes about a tested process that sets up working relationships for the best possible success. He understands that every working relationship, whether it’s with our direct reports, our boss, or our coworkers, will become challenging at a certain point. In this episode, we’ll discuss how to communicate about who you are, and what brings out the best and the worst in you.

Michael has a gift for distilling big, complex ideas into practical, accessible knowledge for everyday people that helps them be a force for good. He is also at the forefront of shaping how organizations around the world make being coach-like an essential leadership competency. His books have sold over a million copies, with?The Coaching Habit topping the Wall Street Journal bestseller list and it is also the best-selling coaching book of this century, with over a million copies sold. Seth Godin called it “the best book on coaching ” and Brené Brown said it is “a classic .”?

He's also written an impressive shelf’s worth of other notable tomes, including: Get Unstuck & Get Going , Great Work Provocations , Do More Great Work, The Advice Trap , How to Begin , and his most recent book How to Work with (Almost) Anyone , which we did a deep dive into in this episode.

In 2019, Michael was named the #1 thought leader in coaching. Michael was the first Canadian Coach of the Year, and has been named a Global Coaching Guru since 2014.

I first came upon Michael’s work via Box of Crayons , a learning and development company he founded, that has helped hundreds of organizations transform from advice-driven to

curiosity-led, and has trained more than a half-million employees for clients that include Microsoft, Salesforce, and Gucci.

Michael is a compelling speaker and facilitator, combining practicality, humor, and an unprecedented degree of engagement with his audience. He’s spoken on stages and screens around the world in front of crowds ranging from ten to ten-thousand, in fact his TEDx talk has been watched by more than a million people.

Michael has been featured by Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss, and Brené Brown, and has appeared on ABC, BBC, CBC, and innumerable podcasts―as well as in notable publications including the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Inc., and Fast Company.

He left Australia about 30 years ago to be a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University, where he identifies his only significant achievement there was falling in love with a Canadian, which explains why he now lives in Toronto.

And, some formative, but not likely causal experiences that have led to today, include Michael knocking ?himself out while working as a laborer when he hit himself in the head with a shovel, mastering stagecraft while in law school by appearing in a skit called Synchronized Nude Male Modeling, and Michael’s prolific writing career got its start when he sold his first piece, a Harlequin Romance-esque story involving a misdelivered letter, aptly titled, The Male Delivery.

Michael has such a wonderful set of diverse life experiences, so we started with how he became interested in coaching and his mixed experiences with having various coaches.

His productivity is remarkable—he gives talks all over the world, he writes a great weekly newsletter (The Works ), he has his own podcast, he writes significant books (many that are best sellers), and he nevertheless has a life—so I wanted to know how he manages it all, and he shared his methods.

As for his podcast, 2 Pages with MBS , he has brilliant people read?the best two pages?of their favorite book (some are old friends and colleagues).?He told us how that came about and his batch process for production, its high quality, and how he keeps up with his frequent episode drop rate. He also discussed is company, MBS Works , and how it came into being and what it does.

We shifted into discussing his newest book, but I first shared what others have said about it:

Brené Brown, PhD, New York Times–bestselling author of Atlas of the Heart and Dare to Lead said “My favorite thing about Michael’s work is his ability to deliver actionable, tactical strategies that are based on well-researched ideas and data, then packaged in a book that I can read on a flight. And the wisdom is real―it sticks.”

Amy Edmondson, Professor at Harvard Business School, author of The Fearless Organization and an old colleague of mine, said “This little volume has actionable advice on every page, and it’s a fun read, too.”

Seth Godin called it “A modern classic, this book will save relationships, careers, and organizations.”

Kim Scott, author of Radical Candor and Just Work said “Here is a practical, tactical guide to help you rebuild the most human of skills: conversation. Essential!”

Whitney Johnson, Wall Street Journal–bestselling author of Smart Growth said that “Michael Bungay Stanier’s genius for making the complex simple is on full display. Bravo!”

Stefani Okamoto, Director of Global Learning & Development at Microsoft said “This exceptional book provides the practical tools and self-reflections that will help you gain critical insights in how to approach any conversation successfully.”

We discussed the spark for this latest work.

As longtime listeners to my podcast know, I love to nerd out with authors as to book design and other aspects. We started with the title. I know it’s been a common question for him, but for those who may be wondering, I asked who is the “almost” he’s referring to? His answer was spot on.?

Along the lines of being an author, in one of his recent newsletters, he wrote that:

·??????of the 45,000 “front list” books sold in a year (“front list” meaning a book that is less than a year old sold by a traditional publisher)

·??????only 0.4% sell more than 100,000 copies

·??????86% sell less than 5k copies (they don’t break even), which is astounding, but worse than that is

·??????15% sell less than 12 copies!!

Given this dreadful math, Michael has a different take in hi mission with this book—a shift from a personal ambition to a purpose–driven outcome, from short-term to the bigger game. He discussed his mission for the book, is that goes well beyond “is it on a bestseller list?” to improving 10 million working relationships.

“In?How to Begin, I say a Worthy Goal has the three elements of Thrilling, Important, and Daunting. When I set my ambition to improve 10 million working relationships, I suddenly lit up all three of those lights."

His book kicks things off with the three factors of “The BPR – Best Possible Relationship,” which includes being Safe (a la Amy Edmondson), Vital, and Reparable. He discusses why he considers these as the hallmarks of a flourishing and resilient work relationship?

Michael notes the heart of the Best Possible Relationship is the Keystone Conversation, and it is the Keystone Conversation that builds the infrastructure. That infrastructure is Shared Responsibility, Permission, and Deeper Understanding. He went on to explain how they interact. He also wrote that the?unexpected focus?of a Keystone Conversation is what makes it work so well.

There are five types of questions for Building the Best Possible Relationship, and Michael walked us through:

·??????The Amplify Question

·??????The Steady Question

·??????The Good Date Question

·??????The Bad Date Question

·??????The Repair Question

We also discussed preparation for a Keystone Conversation and how best to deal with the associated awkwardness that can go along with it. Similar to his other books, Michael is really great at providing scripts/exact words?readers can use to invite someone to a Keystone Conversation, which makes things easier for both parties. That is so helpful.

The final section is on keeping alive the Best Possible Relationship, and he kicks it off with the idea that disintegration is inevitable which we discussed in detail. He also wrote about six principles of maintenance, to keep things flourishing after the Keystone Conversation. They include:

·??????Be Open-Minded (Stay Curious)

·??????Be Open-Handed (Stay Vulnerable)

·??????Be Open-Hearted (Stay Kind)

·??????Adjust Always

·??????Repair Often

·??????Reset as Needed

As an author and lover of good book- and graphic-design, I am always on the prowl for creative presentations of equally creative ideas, and How to Work with (Almost) Anyone does not disappoint. I really like Michael’s use of font variation; chapter endings with reader-tasks like “Do This” and “Say This;” checklists a-go-go; QR codes for videos, downloadable white papers and other goodies. We went into how he developed those ideas and formats. ?

We closed out the book’s discussion talking about his Bonus of Exercises and “Juicy Bits,” which are chock-full of resources and additional materials—and are a treasure trove. And I have never seen such a comprehensive Thank You section, I don’t even know that many people, and Michael let us in on the story behind that.

Michael shared his book promo tour plans, as well as the projects planned for the next two years. Wow.

Show notes for this episode include ways that listeners can get all of his books, listen to his podcast, and get on his newsletter list and connect.

Michael plans on his writing and work to serve as his legacy of a life well lived. I think he can be satisfied that he’s accomplished this, and we all are the beneficiaries.

You can listen to our conversation on?Apple Podcasts ,?Overcast ,?SoundCloud ,?Spotify , YouTube Podcasts ,?Google Podcasts ,?Pandora , iHeartRADIO , and pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts, or?download here . Please subscribe on your favorite platform and never miss an episode or click here to get our?monthly newsletter . It’s like a gym membership for your brain.?

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