Maria Herrera On Providing An Avenue For Artists To Achieve Financial Stability

I am here with Maria Herrera from?Evergreen Entertainment. We’re going to be talking about how to figure out how much your release is going to cost, how you’re going to pay for it, and all that stuff that we all worry about as artists. Before we get into that, I would love to have you Maria share your story and background. I know that you’ve worked with different kinds of artists over the years. Let them know what your journey has been in the music industry so far.

I started out as a major fan girl. I love Justin Bieber as a teenager. That was my in and my start. I had no idea what it took to be in the music industry at that time, but I knew I had to work in the industry. I eventually beat my way in with his team. I worked a lot on the fan engagement side of things, digital marketing for merch campaigns, tours and things like that. I did that for about 8 to 10-ish years, then I moved to Nashville from Florida. I worked for a few different music PR firms here in town. That’s when I started to work with a lot of independent artists and started to see how mismanaged many independent artists’ budgets are because that’s the way the industry is built these days.

Eventually, from there, I created Evergreen Entertainment to fulfill my own vision of what I thought the industry should be combating the toxicity of racism, sexism, you name it. Also, providing artists with transparent, authentically passionate support, not just on the finance side but also through PR, digital marketing and all the things. I’m happy to be here. Thank you so much for you for having me. I think it’s important that a show like this exists because there’s not enough real, accurate information for independent artists, especially right now. I mean resources for them to know how to navigate the business side of things, which is important if you’re going to have a long-term career.

I’m curious when you say there are not enough resources. I feel like there are many more resources now than when I started my first show in 2015. Back then, it was a total Wild West for indie artists because there were basically no more labels for them to go into and stuff like that. They had to start managing on their own. Where do you feel like indie artists these days are lacking in knowledge, even though we’ve got the internet where there are many places they can get information?

It is awesome how social media helps. Even on TikTok, I’ve seen many creators whose profiles are dedicated to educating artists and certain ones I look up to and respect. Unfortunately, I think at the same time, there’s been this increase in scammers honestly and people who simply want to sell a workshop that may or may not give artists genuine tools because they want to make money. It’s about navigating the digital age and the modern resources that we’re having these days, but also being aware that with all the good things that come with that, there are many bad things to look out for.

A lot of the time, especially for independent artists who are hungry and they’re trying to pursue their dream, it’s very easy to fall into traps because many times in this industry, people can present themselves as very authentic and that they have your best intentions in mind, but then 2 or 3 months in, you realize that that’s not their actual truth. There’s never going to be a clear-cut answer of, “You have to look out for this kind of business or person,” because they’re going to do you wrong. It’s about knowing your own intuition and having more and more experiences. Being able to vet people quickly is only going to come with more experience.

I think also sometimes, it’s not necessarily that the person that you work with is a scammer. It’s just that they’re offering you a service that you don’t need right now. I see this a lot with very early artists. They invest a lot of money in PR or radio or whatever, putting out their very first single and they have nothing to back it up. I feel like if people were doing their due diligence, they should say, “Why don’t you contact me in a year when you’re ready for this and when you should be spending this kind of money?” Everybody needs to work. It’s not that they’re not doing their job. They’re going to do their best for that artists but there’s only much you can do when an artist is first starting out.

I know, as a business owner myself, in the beginning, when we were getting our reputation on our footing, especially in Nashville, I did have those moments where people would come to me and I felt like, “You’re not as established as I would like you to be in order to do my best work for you.” On the flip side, artists have to be serious with themselves about these types of situations, business owners have the responsibility to be honest in those situations.

Maybe it means turning down money, but in the long run, and I’ve certainly experienced this, we are saying no to those things or, “Not now,” and being transparent. Using that as a teaching opportunity for these artists, it’s only going to benefit you on the business side because then you can have a better reputation. You can feel better about the work that you’re doing at the end of the day.

When you have artists coming to you, where do you want to see an artist before they’re ready to work with you and utilize all the services that you have to provide?

We’re flexible. We certainly work with some artists who are a bit underdeveloped. They maybe have a few singles out, but then nothing else besides that. In those situations, I would only agree to work with somebody if they’re upcoming music that we would be working on, I am very passionate about it as a music fan because then, I know that the pitching or networking that we’re going to do on their behalf, I can be authentic about and enjoy it at the same time.

The results will naturally come in those situations, but for the most part, we try to work with somebody who already understands how the industry works and has had quite a few years releasing music and playing shows. We’re not having to necessarily teach them about how to do distribution or things like that. We are maybe three steps ahead already where we can take this polished project that’s high quality. We know that in any interviews that they do, they’re going to be very professional in. That way, everybody can be operating at a little bit of a higher caliber. The results will be one million times better in that case.

How do you feel about maybe the branding side? Let’s say that their music is awesome, but they haven’t figured out who they are as an artist, what their story is, and how to brand themselves online. Would you take someone like that who’s got the goods and great music but they haven’t developed their marketing side yet?

That’s some of my favorite projects to work on. We have this thing called a branding and identity workshop, where we work for 2 to 3 months with the client to put them through a boot camp of questioning every little thing about themselves that they probably haven’t even asked themselves yet. Honestly, most of our Zooms with those types of clients are more like therapy-ish kind of sessions where we’re getting down to the nitty-gritty.

We’re having them reflect on not just, “What kind of genre do you want to make music for,” but it’s about, “What are your biggest passions outside of music?” All of those things are eventually going to tie into your music career in some way or another because working in this industry, so much of your personal life bleeds into your art. Getting to work with an artist who has this clean slate in terms of branding, we get to go on that adventure with them and help them decide, “What’s your color palette going to be? What kind of person, not just the demographic, that you’re wanting to attract? What are their habits? What other artists are they fans of? What kind of shows do they like to go to the most?”

Having those clear things already in place before we even try to do a PR campaign or market their next single, when they have confidence in all of that groundwork, they’re able to make content so much more naturally. All of the little struggles that we see artists on any level, even major label sign artists are struggling with social media right now. Whenever you have that clear identity to fall back on, everything is so much easier.

I love getting to brand artists. That’s pretty much the kind of client that we tend to work with most if they were to be more on the underdeveloped side of things. It would be more like, “We’re working with a clean slate. Your music is awesome. We’re very excited about you. We think you have a good head on your shoulders. Now let’s see if this is something that’s able to be made into something awesome.”

I’m definitely on the same page with the way that you do the branding. You’re right. It does make it much easier for them to create content. Otherwise, it’s like pulling teeth sometimes. What would you say to those early artists, the ones that are starting out, and maybe they’re trying to bootstrap their career? I know that they tend to feel like, “You got to have money to make money, but I don’t have money. I don’t have fans yet. If I do crowdfunding, who’s going to support me because I don’t have fans?” It’s hard to get that snowball move going down the hill. You feel like you’re always pushing it uphill.

It’s difficult to give advice to an artist in that situation if they’re not willing, ready, and able to accept it and fully digest it. I see many times people will give advice to a young artist or maybe somebody who has never even released music but they’re hoping to, and you can see that the advice goes in one ear and out the other because they’re just focused on the music. They want to write another song and release it without any plans or any thoughts. It’s hard to get somebody to believe it and digest it until they’re ready.

If they are ready to hear it and take the advice, before we talk about crowdfunding, investing or anything else, the most important thing is you need to focus on your personal finances first and have a personal emergency fund before anything else. I was talking with a friend about how we, in this industry, don’t talk about personal finances, not because much of your personal life will inevitably bleed into your artist career.

Having an emergency fund so whenever you’re working on your big EP release, if your car has a flat tire, you’re not going to have to pull from your marketing area in order to make ends meet. You have a backing and you can feel comfortable in your life, and then you’re able to focus on creativity more. That’s where I would start 100%. In terms of crowdfunding, especially if you don’t have fans, followers, or a network of personal friends who are super rich to be able to invest in you in that way, I know that this is frustrating for a lot of artists to hear, but you need to be thinking 1, 2 or3 years into the future, and you need to be saving as much as possible.

It is expensive to be an artist, not just because producing a song is expensive, but because taking days off of work to go and play shows or whatever else it may be. It takes out of your personal life so much. If you can start building a sinking fund that you know, “Three years from now, my biggest dream is to start releasing music. Let me start, every single month, put away $100 or whatever I can into a separate account. I know that that’s going to be there for me ready whenever I’m ready to release music and when the creativity has come to fruition.” You feel confident about a certain group of songs or something that you have.

When the music is done, then the artist is like, “Now let me start crowdfunding and looking for people to help me. I want to release this in three months.” You can do that, but I can’t say that necessarily it’s going to be as successful or you might not be as comfortable and confident with it if you had entered into it with 2 or 3 years of savings.

People don’t generally talk about that. We don’t like to have to say to artists, “Your first few albums are probably going to sink most of the money in the bank,” but it’s true.

I had an artist come to me the other day. They don’t have any monthly listeners. Their music is awesome but honestly, it sucks to have to say it, but there are a lot of talented artists out there. You can’t just approach a random person on the street or on social media posts and say, “Can everybody donate to my crowdfunding,” and expect people to want to jump at the opportunity because they have to have some sense or a return of value in that investment.

I know that there is Patreon and things where people can do different videos and stuff for their donators. If you have a network of people who are able to do that for you, I’ve seen a lot of artists have successful campaigns on that, but if you are a baby artist having little to no releases, the number one thing to do is to save your money as much as possible.

A lot of times, I do recommend that artists do a small crowdfunding campaign when they’re doing an EP or album release. Even if you don’t have a lot of fans, you might have those people that want to support and believe in you. Friends, your favorite uncle, or whatever, they want a chance to be able to give to what you’re doing. It doesn’t have to be high-pressure. It’s like, “Do a 30-day thing. Go out to people.” When you do crowdfunding, the people that support you the most are people that are already your friends and know you in person. It’s not random strangers.

It’s very difficult to get random strangers on the internet to donate to your cause. Even if you have a group of five friends and they can each give you $100, $500 with release whether that’s paying for your production, your cover art, or something can go a long way if it’s utilized the right way.

Let’s talk about release budgets. You can go from bare bones to going crazy. My mom keeps telling me there’s this artist she watches in Fox Nation. Her name is Kinsey. Every single commercial is for her new single. My mom was like, “How much is this person investing in commercials?” You can go from, “I’m putting nothing into this. I’m putting it out there and hoping for the best. I’m going crazy and promoting myself on television.” How do you know what kind of budget? Do you think it depends on where you are in your career? How much money do you budget for an EP release?

I think so. In the beginning, there is no sense in throwing thousands of dollars into ads because if the foundation isn’t there and you don’t already have a lot of releases for new people to fall back on, to digest, and things like that, then the ads are only going to go far. Obviously, if you somehow caught fire and you’re gaining hundreds of followers every single week or something, you should start investing more if you can.

A lot of artists, especially people reading this are still trying to navigate, “What’s my plan going to be?” It can be common to look at other major artists, like the artists that you look up to the most. If I looked at Ariana Grande and her music videos and I thought, “That’s what I want to do with my career,” you can do that maybe in the future, but not anytime soon.

A lot of people who aren’t involved in the industry as much as we are don’t realize how much money is behind those major artists. It’s easy to compare yourself to them. Whenever your video isn’t as cool as that artist’s then it’s easy to feel bad about yourself and therefore, you want to splurge more on your next video. It’s about having patience and understanding that, “This video might not cost $10,000. It might be a $1,000 video that I worked with my friends to make. Eventually, I will get there. It’s important for me to not go into debt or anything right now so that way I can get there comfortably.”

They’re spending that much money, first of all, because a label is fronting it. Second of all, because they know that they have distribution channels for millions of people to see it so it’s worth that. As independent artists, we do not have those distribution channels without spending a lot of money.

Not just on the video side of things, but even something like music production and getting your song produced. I’ve seen a lot of artists who have released no music yet but they have high standards for themselves. They say, especially here in Nashville because there are a lot of music producers here, “I’m only going to work with the best of the best, the guy who has produced all of my other favorite big country stars.” If you can get in contact with them and they have time, they would be willing to work with you, but for what price, and is that worth it?

I always say it is to a certain extent worth it to invest in the quality of your music on the production side. As long as you don’t delete those songs from Spotify, your future fans will be able to listen to them and you never know which song is going to stick with somebody and make them become a long-lasting fan. It’s important to make sure that your music is consistently high quality, but you don’t need all the bells and whistles right off the bat. That goes for working with PR or marketing agencies. It’s very easy to feel like, “If I signed with this company and pay them $2,000 A month, they’re going to make me a star,” when you know that’s not going to happen.

The thing is there are a lot of talented producers that cost middle-of-the-road prices that you can afford and you’re not getting your brother to record you in the garage or something. There are many producers that work for a very affordable decent wage. Maybe they haven’t won Grammys yet, but ask for some samples and listen to some stuff that they’ve done from artists that are similar to you.

Also, something else to pay attention to in those situations is your personal connection with that producer. Do you guys work well together? I would much rather work with a producer who inspires me and helps me find my sound more every time I work with him than somebody who’s going to try to make me sound like every other big artist that they’ve worked with.

I had a friend who had a producer that wanted her to make a very alternative sound. It was early 2000. She’s like, “That’s not how I hear my music.” It sounded cool, but it didn’t fit who she wanted to be as an artist in the long run.

It’s tough whenever an artist is less experienced and they’re starting out. Maybe they still haven’t even found their exact sound and they are susceptible to following other people’s pressures or advice. Unfortunately, I’ve seen some artists who even years into the future have this epiphany where they realize, “I haven’t been doing what I want to do. I have been doing what I thought everybody else wanted me to do.”

Let’s say an artist comes to you and they’ve had two albums or EPs that they’ve put out on their own. Now they’re wanting to have this next one be their breakout thing. Do you have a range of numbers of like, “This is what you need to spend to make this your breakout EP or album?”

With social media these days and TikTok, a lot that artists can gain through releases for free. As long as you have the time and energy to dedicate to it and you’re serious enough about it, there is a lot that you can bootstrap and save a whole lot of money on. In terms of numbers, it’s hard to say because it varies so much between genres, what exactly are you trying to achieve with that and what do you mean by break out? Do you mean that you’re going to be able to then use this to open for bigger artists on tour or do you mean that you’re going to gain 10,000 more listeners or something like that?

It gauges with that, but once you’ve released a couple of full projects, singles and you have that experience, that’s when you can start putting out feelers for working with third parties, whether that be simply hiring an assistant to help you make content or organize your calendar so that way you’re staying held accountable for things like that. A lot of people underestimate the power of being your own CEO of your music business company because your music business entity should be an LLC or a company.

You should treat yourself as you are the boss of that company. Who are you going to bring in? That doesn’t even necessarily mean hiring a person or a company that can mean, “Am I going to spend this money this month on Submithub, or am I not going to make that decision or not?” As far as PR, I have a very special opinion about publicists. I say that as somebody who still does PR for some of our clients, but we don’t necessarily do it in the same way that some other agencies do it. It’s easy to think, “I have to pay this person $3,000 a month, or else I’m never going to get any press for my stuff. This is my third album and I want it to do well so I got to shut up and handle it.”

If that amount of money won’t realistically make sense for you, it’s important that artists are very serious with themselves about that because you can say, “I thought about it and it is going to be a good investment,” but sometimes. it still isn’t. That’s their ego because of things like PR or getting playlist submissions. A lot of the time, those playlists don’t have a lot of followers or those logs don’t have a lot of readers. Getting that article can feel valuable to an artist, especially for a project that is near and dear to their heart. You have to be realistic and realize, “How much of that is fueling my ego versus how much of that is making a long-term difference for my music business?”

If you find a good PR agency, promotional company, or all the things with marketing and everything and you feel like there is a strong connection with them 2 to 3 albums in, this is the time to start putting those feelers out and see if that type of relationship will work for you. Don’t make any big commitments. Do not try to hire a PR agency for a 6 or 12-month contract. They will try to get you to do that because they’re used to working with artists with big budgets who are going to try to be super committed. You have to be serious with yourself and realize if that’s not going to work, but if there’s ever a time, that would be the time to start putting those feelers out.

It’s hard because artists are thinking in the back of their minds, “What is my return on investment on this?” A lot of times, it’s completely intangible.

It really is. There is a good amount of value in that because it builds your SEO and can help with credibility. You can use those press links for booking pitches or whatever else you want to do in the future, but to what extent? You need to realize, “When do I need to pull back from that?” I know a lot of small artists in town here who are working 2 or 3 serving jobs in order to pay their publicity team when they’re releasing three singles a year. They’re trying to pay a PR agency every single month because they feel like they have to. Their colleagues are expecting that of them because that’s the industry standard. If that’s not going to work for you, that’s not going to work for you. Those decisions are what’s going to make or break you to get to that Ariana Grande level.

You have to have the money to continuously feed it a bit to be able to make momentum. If feeding it is $3,000 a month versus $1,000 a month, it is a lot more doable at $1,000 a month.

Consistency, in my opinion, is more important than anything. If you can maintain a medium amount on the financial side or whatever that looks like, that’s much more important than, “These three months, I’m going to go crazy then I’m not going to be able to do anything for the rest of the year.”

That’s a really good point. What about investments? A lot of artists ask me like, “I’m looking for an investor.” How realistic is that? Are there people that invest in artists?

A lot of artists see that because I’ve even heard about a few artists in town who are getting great investment deals. It almost always is too good to be true, especially if it’s a person whom you don’t already have an existing relationship with. I heard about somebody who was playing a show and this random person in a state that he doesn’t even live in is a big fan and they want to invest. Having that money can make a big difference in your career, but at what cost?

There are all these technicalities. Just because you have an investor, it doesn’t mean that you’re going to get $5,000 a month or whatever, you’re free of that, and you can spend it however you please. Maybe that person is going to want to have a say in your career or they’re going to want to listen to your songs before you release them to give you the green light. In a sense, the control that labels have over artists can be somewhat similar to the control that investors can have over artists. If anything, it can have more of a toll on artists because it’s more of an individual one-on-one relationship so you can feel more indebted to that person.

You need to enter those situations very carefully with a very good head on your shoulder. I don’t think that it’s as common or as easy to find an investor as some artists who don’t have the experience might think. Because of that, they can be quick to jump at any little investment opportunity that comes their way so be very careful.

The biggest thing, whether it’s a label or an individual, is you do not want to give up your creative control.

It’s invaluable and priceless. I could talk about that all day long because having that self-confidence and self-reliance as an artist is the most important thing you can do no matter what your long-term goals are.

Let me ask you about what you guys do. I believe you called yourself a manager. How is that different from say an indie label?

We’re half and half. We have a few management clients where it’s more like your traditional management contract where we help them navigate. We pitch them for opportunities and try to help them grow their overall artistic career. We have some clients who are more on a service basis. They might hire us to help them with the marketing side of their upcoming EP release or something like that. We’ve built the company to be able to be flexible for independent artists. We have amazing long-term relationships with some artists. They trust us and we trust them.

That doesn’t mean that they’re working with us every single month. Maybe they come to us three times a year, but then every time we pick up, we pick up where we left and there’s no like, “You haven’t been with us. We’re going to put you on hold,” and then we’re going to spend a month lollygagging to say that we’re prepping for you, but then you’re still going to have to pay us and things like that. I’ve experienced all of those things so I’ve tried to structure the business against all of those things. That way, every single time an artist works with us, they get this wave of relief of, “Finally, I have somebody who I can trust and isn’t going to be super expensive, but I know I’m always going to get a return on investment.”

What’s most important to me is that the money that these artists are paying us, we are spending that time. We are going above and beyond. If we don’t get the results that we were hoping for because we also always make sure that we are genuine fans of our artists, we want good results for them. Maybe that means working a month overtime for free for them in order to meet our standards. That’s starting to set a precedent within my network and our company’s network of people realizing, “I can get that awesome label support that I’ve always dreamed of without having to get into that gross contract.”

What is the gamut of the services that you offer?

Aside from the more management type of clients, half of our company is digital marketing. Social media, helping them with fan engagement, coming up with creative marketing and branding plans behind songs, helping artists realize, “What’s the era of this single going to be and how’s that going to reflect on my social media? How’s that going to reflect in my storytelling, through interviews and things like that?” How can we make sure that those marketing plans are still tying back to the artist on a long-term basis and their general artists’ brand?

The other side of the company is more artist development, but not necessarily in the way that the industry has known it for all this time. We’re not doing so much like instrument lessons, interview training, or things like that. We’re starting to lay the basis in terms of PR. Going back to what I’m saying that PR is not always valuable. It doesn’t always make sense for every single release for an artist. Understanding when we implement a PR campaign versus when we maybe look at partnering you with an awesome nonprofit that somehow connects back to your music and how can we make it clear to the world whenever they Google you that you are not just another artist making great music. We need to give the world something to latch on to.

That’s the two different halves of what we do, but obviously, our day-to-day is crazy all over the place. Every single day is very different for me. Sometimes, that’s very anxiety-inducing, then sometimes, it’s awesome. I have those moments where I’m like, “This is why I do this. This is amazing,” in those magical little moments. So far, it’s been awesome. We’ve got to work with a lot of great artists. By being loud about our beliefs in the industry, we’ve started to attract like-minded artists. Working with them is like a dream come true all the time.

I love that leading with your values. What is your opinion about trying to get on playlists? Is it worth it anymore? I’m guessing most artists come to you and that’s one of the things they ask about.

There is the precedent that you need to be on all these playlists in order to get the streams and things like that, but the playlisting world is muddy these days. It’s only going to continue to get muddy as the digital age growing and evolving with more scammers and more people who are trying to make a quick buck with not maybe the best results in mind. Playlists on Submithub, you can go on there and you might have to pay $1 or whatever it is to submit but then when you look, they only have five listeners on the playlist. That’s where the thing about, “Is this an ego thing or a good business move thing?”

Most of the time, getting on playlists is just an ego thing. Algorithmically, that might help you because on release day for your song to get added to ten playlists will help Spotify to know that people are loving it and things like that. If those playlists are just bots, that can hurt you a million times on whatever you invested in that.

I’ve had many artists who have had to delete singles off of Spotify or had to start their Spotify page from scratch. It’s disgusting that there are many people out there who are ready, happy, and excited to take advantage of independent artists. Out of everybody in the world, independent artists are the ones who have the least money. They’re certainly not the ones to be taken advantage of. Because they are excited about their song, they believe that it deserves to get a lot of attention and be on a lot of playlists, they’re quick and happy to say yes to any placements.

We approach playlisting from an organic perspective. If we’re pitching an awesome independent blog that has an authentic community of people who trust their recommendations and then they have a playlist that therefore the song gets added to organically, that is amazing. We’re not going to enter into a campaign with playlists as our number one goal because if we do, we’re going to inevitably have to bend and say yes to opportunities that might not necessarily be the best long-term.

There are legitimate people on Submithub and you can research them. Our show takes some placements from there every once in a while when we run out, but we usually don’t run out anymore because we have a big following. That’s one thing to consider. The people are on there because they don’t have a big enough following to be getting direct submissions anyways and they want to make money off of it. Not that you make that much. It gets old fast to listen to songs in order to make $0.50 per song.

That energy or the monetary investment would be better spent looking to connect with an actual playlist curator who is independent and passionate. Maybe they don’t have a lot of followers but they’re stoked about your music and you can create a good initial relationship with them that as they grow and as you grow, you guys can grow together. Even on the video side, production, songwriting, or whatever it may be, having a network of people whom you can grow along with and not feel like, “I’m going to gatekeep this information for myself,” is what’s going to benefit you not just on the creative side but financially as well.

I agree with that. There are many talented people out there that are up and coming. You guys can work together to push each other forward. I always say all boats rise with the tide.

A lot of people feel like the industry has to be competitive because that’s what it’s been seen as pretty much since its inception. That goes along with what we were saying about having that self-reliance and maybe having your own personal emergency fund along with all those things. Taking the time in those early days to find the people whom you can genuinely trust long-term. That way, whenever you get yourself into a pickle, you have people to ask questions, advice from, or lean on. Even going back to the crowdfunding thing, those are the people who are going to help you crowdfund.

This has been helpful. We’ve talked about many great subjects and things that are near and dear to my heart. For sure drilling into the finance side is important. That’s obviously why we’ve got the show. Those things are very important to me. I have a finance background so I’m glad we talked about those. If people want to connect with you further, what is the best way for them to do that, website, social media or all the things?

Website is?EvergreenEnt.com. Our username on TikTok,?Instagram,?Twitter, and all the things is?@EvgnEnt. We have a blog that we started on our website. I’m hoping to be able to post more things about the business side of being an independent artist. People can check that out. We also try to do Instagram posts that educate artists as well. We try to give back to the community as much as possible.

That’s exactly what we do. I’ll see you on all the social media. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us and offering your informed opinions about being in the industry for as long as you have. I think it is valuable.

Thank you for having me. It’s important to share this information at any chance we get so we can all grow together.