No Limits with Rebecca Jarvis: Meredith Kopit Levien Full Transcript

Listen to the full episode here: https://abcn.ws/nolimits

On today’s episode, the woman behind the business of The New York Times. As Chief Operating Officer, Meredith Kopit Levien has helped take The Gray Lady to unprecedented heights. In this episode we cover everything from the days that lead up to and followed Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey’s game changing story revealing decades of sexual harassment allegations against Harvey Weinstein, to whether The Times might someday accept payments in Bitcoin, to Meredith’s own path: becoming the company’s first COO in more than a decade. 

R: Meredith Kopit Levien, welcome to No Limits! 

M: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

R: I'm thrilled to have you. I'm thrilled to hear your voice, your voice is outstanding.

M: Thank you. Thank you.

R: You are the first COO in over a decade.

M: I think so.

M: You know I hadn’t processed that I feel very lucky to be there, I feel particularly lucky to be there in this moment.

R: And you’re the person really who's figured it out. I mean you and your team are the ones who have figured out the model that makes money in that business.

M: I would, I want to clarify I am not the person. The New York Times I think as well as anyone has, has figured out the necessity of expeditious digital transformation. I think we've figured out that news is a relationship business and we are on a journey to being a world class consumer brand. But it's, you know the collective of a lot of leaders at the Times and the family.

M: The Sulzberger family that has figured it out so not just me and my team.

R: But it's an important distinction because for so many years, people just assumed that you needed to give it away for free. That if someone was going to click on your articles online, there's no way people would be willing to spend any money. And The New York Times, that collective wisdom that you are a part of and a part your job is really charged with figuring that component out has figured out how to get people to pay for it.

M: Yeah I always say you can describe the business model, not the journalism not the mission, but the business model of The New York Times in five words “make something worth paying for.” And you know if you add a sentence, when most of the alternatives are free. And I think this year in particular I think The Times has had you know century and a half of proving that it does that.

R: And I think about the year 2017. October 5th, 2017 the day Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey published their piece on Harvey Weinstein. I really think the world changed that day. And when I when I read the piece at first, I had no idea. I think they've said this in interviews as well - they had no idea what the response would be. What did you think when you read their article with all of these allegations of sexual harassment against Harvey Weinstein, somebody who for so many years had completely controlled an industry and many people's livelihoods and careers?

M: I thought the world would never be the same again. And it seemed like the beginning of something that's going to take I have to say years to sort out. I think it is one of the most profound moments of journalism playing an extraordinarily important role in the world that we've seen in a long long time. And it to me against the backdrop of what the rest of the year has been about makes it even more interesting. A few days after the piece came out I was getting into an elevator and I hadn't seen Jodi or Megan and I knew Jodi a little bit. I barely, Megan I hadn’t seen them since it had come out. And the elevator doors, they were getting out of the elevator and I was getting into it and the elevator doors swung open and literally my like, I had this like physical.

M: I threw my arms around them like I didn't know what else to do.

R: They’re heroes.

M: They’re heroes inside the building, and I think they're heroes around the world. I was telling the story this morning that a couple, a few days after the story came out two colleagues and I two colleagues who senior colleagues at The Times who happened to be women, Rebecca Blumenstein our Deputy Managing Editor and Lisa Howard who is one of the leaders in our ad business and I went to Asia and we did a multi city tour of Asia and we were joined in Asia by three other women: our Beijing bureau chief, our head of our Chinese language web site. And one of our leading commercial people there. So it was like six women you know moving across Asia on behalf of The New York Times in this moment. That in and of itself was kind of a stunning and amazing thing. To us it felt that way. But everywhere we went you know Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shenzhen and so forth. Everyone was talking about Harvey Weinstein. It was amazing like you just got the sense of how big a story this was and continues to be.

R: When it comes to your story. I want to look a little bit more deeply at the work specifically that you do. You grew up in Virginia.

M: I did Richmond, Virginia. Which I always say is a conversation stopper. It’s a small town nobody knows anyone from there.

R: My producer Taylor Dunn went to UVA.

M: Oh so did I.

R: And I know you went to UVA as well. So that's not a conversation stopper here. That's a big starter here. So when you were at UVA you didn't study anything that would necessarily indicate the path that you ended up on.

M: Well that's, that's sort of true. There was no, you couldn't be… I basically am a lifelong lover of journalism: the craft of journalism, the idea of reporting, the role journalism plays in the world. I was like on my middle school newspaper.

R: I love that.

M: I mean, I think like if if there had been a newspaper in elementary school I would have been on it.

R: Do you remember what the newspaper was called?

M: I think it was the Wingspan?

M: I went to Byrd Middle School. I think that might have been the name of the yearbook.

M: But like I, like I've been… I remember my parents on it so I grew up in Richmond, Virginia which was this great place to grow up. Great town. I feel very lucky to have grown up there. My parents were New Yorkers. They were from Riverdale in the Bronx. And so occasionally, we would have the New York Times in the house. I grew up, I grew up reading The Richmond Times Dispatch and The Richmond News Leader. But occasionally we'd have The Times in the house and occasionally we'd have New York Magazine in the house because we went to New York to visit family pretty regularly. And I was just obsessed with both of those brands as a as a little girl and I was obsessed with the Richmond Times Dispatch and The Richmond News Leader and I remember being it must have been in late elementary school, or early middle school. Like going to the newspaper and like hearing from reporters and I just, I was interested in that my entire life. And I was always a reader. Always sort of a nerd for anything that was about civics and society and how society functioned together. So I went to college and I went to UVA because it was you know the best school in my state. And it's where I feel so lucky.

R: In state tuition?

M: Yeah it was where I could afford to go I feel so lucky that I grew up in that town in that state and could get in there. I’m sure I would not have gotten in had I not been from there. But there was no journalism program. So if if you kind of were interested in journalism which I was, you'd go work on the paper. And I did. I worked on The Cavalier Daily which was a great independently run college daily. Excellent excellent daily. Super formative to me and sort of seeing how all that worked. And I became a Rhetoric major that. That's sort of what you did. And I minored in History so it was sort of everybody advised me like you have to actually have context for understanding the world.

R: Sure.

M: If you want to do this and the best thing you can do if you want to be a journalist, or you want to work in journalism is to have knowledge. To have context, to understand what has happened before. So that's really why I focused on that.

R: Rhetoric also sounds like I didn’t mean to cut you off but Rhetoric also sounds like something if you were pursuing law.

R: Did you ever think about…

M: Many pre-law students also were Rhetoric majors. No I didn't think about that. I'm married to an attorney my child's name is Justice. He doesn't practice as an attorney, but he went to law school and he he loves the law. He and our child Justice but but no, I didn't. Much to his chagrin that is not in the things that I thought about doing. And I will say I graduated and didn't go into journalism I graduated. I needed to make money...

R: I was in the exact same boat. I realized if I go into journalism right away I have all these student loans, I will never come out from under them. So I chose finance as my initial path.

M: Right. I didn't quite make as as good a decision economically, but I ended up in my first job was actually a writing job but it wasn't in journalism. It was at a company called The Advisory Board which was like a consulting firm. And so I got off that path but only because of necessity - only because as you said I needed to earn a living, and my parents were convinced number one, I wouldn't ever be able to do that in New York as a journalist. And number two that I should go out in the work world first like journalism not being the work world.

R: Well I think that's actually, I think that's good advice because my mom is a journalist my grandfather was a journalist and they both said to me look, I mean my mom is she covers personal finance. She always said to me remember those student loans you do have to start paying them right away. But she also and I do think this is good whether or not there are student loans or finances are a question, learning a practice and seeing it from the inside allows you to be a better journalist. You understand, the wool can't be pulled over your eyes as much when you've seen it. On the other side.

M: I think that's right. Look I think it's like people telling me study History you know you have to have context for the world. And to be clear I've not, so I was a college journalist. I've not practiced in my professional life as a journalist. I now, I have spent a career I've spent the last 15 years of my career doing commercial work in support of journalism. And now I get to play this role in the digital transformation of what I think is the most important institution of journalism in our society and it is so gratifying to do that. So gratifying to have spent all these years so far in my career and hopefully those that come after supporting this work that I think is so foundational to society.

R: I was going to ask you, because you didn't end up doing the journalism path in the “traditional” sense.

M: I didn't.

R: Did you ever think I should be doing this. Did you ever think I wish I could or I regret the choices?

M: I’ll say two things about that I have no regrets - regrets about lots of other stuff, but not that. The… I I had a moment right when I was I think turning 30 where I thought I don't want to like I don't love what I'm doing in business. And so I thought about going to journalism school and going back to it. And I wrote a mentor of mine, David Bradley who is the owner of The Atlantic and said can I come talk to you. And he had he had like recently acquired The Atlantic and I went out to talk to him, and he basically said: just come work here like this is close to. Like come work here for a year if you don't like it, I'll help you go do your next thing and that was sort of it. I went to be literally to be an ad sales person at The Atlantic 15, 16 years ago. And for me the rest feels like history like I, just getting to be around it was so satisfying. You know my first year at the Atlantic, Michael Kelly who was the Editor at the time.

R: Incredible.

M: Incredible, such a stunning loss to journalism when he passed away. Cullen Murphy, Jim Fallows I mean just getting to be in the orbit of those folks was so satisfying to me and knowing that the work that I was doing supported many other people getting to engage with the craft they were making. I mean that, I loved it. So my career kind of took off from there.

R: You know you mentioned those early relationships in your career and how important having those types of…That network was to you finding the right spot. How did you develop that network initially? What are some concrete things that you did that allowed you to make real relationships and not just the kind where you say hi to somebody and then hope that they'll respond to your e-mail in the future.

M: That's such a good question. Doesn't get asked enough. Oh I'll say two things about that. One is, I have been exceedingly lucky in who my bosses were. So I was just saying this to somebody earlier today. And I think early in your career it is simply luck. As you get older, some of it is who you choose to work for and where you direct your effort. But number one I was exceedingly lucky and just working for people who really cared for me and cared about what I was interested in, and cared about what I wanted to do. And that helped and those people are still very much in my network. David Bradley is still very much in my network. My original mentor Elizabeth Keffer who essentially ran the commercial side of Atlantic for many years as someone who is still a dear, dear friend of mine. So that's one. Two. I was so deeply interested in the journalism, in the craft of journalism, in making the world more interested in journalism. I think probably early in my career people people who were journalists saw that.

R: They’re drawn to you. You’re not just the bean counter that they might be accustomed to in that role.

M: I mean yeah, like I've just been like I said I've spent a lifetime wanting society to have a shared fact base and being deeply interested in the manner in which that happens. And like, you can't fake that. And I think just being in the orbit of people like Jim Fallows or Michael Kelly or Cullen Murphy and I think to people like that recognized early on like, I was in it for the mission. And I think look I've been at The Times for four and a half years. I was at Atlantic Media for a long time before that, I was at Forbes for five and a half years in the middle and the through line has been I really believe in the mission, and I see my job as getting as many people in the world as possible to believe and buy into that mission first, sort of buy into the mission spiritually and now really buy into the mission by paying for journalism.

R: Frankly, it's very hard to sell something if you don't believe in that thing. It’s interesting you use the word a couple of times. Being in the orbit which I love. I love this idea that you know, when you you choose people in your life your friends, your partner in life, the people that you work with, you're in their orbit. How have you thought through career choices and differentiated between the very people whose orbit that you will be in versus the company and that mission.

M: Yeah, such a good question. David Bradley taught me the importance of looking at the people around you and saying does this kind of represent my ambition set, my intellectual interests, my value system. So I learned very early on that who you surround yourself with even more important in some ways than your boss. Like do I look around and do I see people who seem to want to work in the way that I work in and be on that path. So I think that's been a really important part of my career. We had, the company I worked for that David Bradley owned before The Atlantic had a very strong value system there were these two values that they always talked about the force of ideas, and the spirit of generosity. And the notion was you had to be an intellectually curious person who was capable of sort of getting to original insight on your own or with others and two, you had to have a servant's heart. You had to actually be in it to serve. And I was lucky enough to be at a company that had this really strong value system when I was 22. I've been looking for those two things for the rest of my career and I’ve been looking for people who behave that way who seem to share those values. And the older I got and the more I had people working for me the more I looked for people working for me who represented those values.

R: I know there's no such thing as typical, it's such a cliché but what does a typical day like in your life and what are the focus points of your job?

M: Yeah. So the CEO of The New York Times Mark Thompson who I've now worked with and for for four and a half years and who has a terrific sponsor, and mentor, and boss, and leader of The Times, he would say my job as COO which I've now been in for half a year feels like much longer.

R: It's been a long half a year.

M: Yes, it's been an important half year for me and for news. Two different things. he would say my job is to make the digital transformation from a commercial standpoint and a product standpoint happen faster at The Times. And that has meant I've spent the last six months, I've spent most of my sort of day job hours, my hours at the times remarkably inside the building in meetings. I am together with people all day long working on how do we coordinate across everything that we do at The New York Times which is technology and data, and product development, and design, and marketing, and advertising and everything else we do. And by the way the journalism - how do we coordinate across all of that to advance this notion of making journalism worth paying for. Making journalism so differentiated, so high quality that from a commercial standpoint against a backdrop of many many free alternatives millions of people will pay for it. So so, I spend all day long working with people to coordinate our ability to do that. And a lot of my time is spent on talent.

R: What are you like as a boss?

M: What am I like or what do I like?

R: Well sure. Let's start with what you are like, and then what you look for in people when you're hiring.

M: Oh that's such a great question. On the ‘what I look for in people’ goes back to the two things I learned when I was 22 which is kind of... Is this someone who is curious enough that they can do original insight and that they can do that collaboratively or on their own. But any case they have to be able to collaborate. And are they here to serve and they have the gift set that the organization needs to be of service at that moment. So easier question to answer. What am I like, I would say I have a voracious interest in where media consumption is going and how original, independent quality journalism fits into that. And by the way should drive that. And I have a voracious interest in how to make many many many more people in the world interested in that, conscious of that, and aware of that. And I think the people on my team would say that. So you know voracious interest in the task at hand.

R: High expectations.

M: Yeah I definitely have high expectations I can tell you I talk too much I keep saying My New Year's resolution of 2018. As a boss, will be to shut up and listen more.

R: It has to be frustrating at times however where you think OK the answer is so clear cut. Here's the perfect design. Let's all just fall in line and follow this perfect design.

M: Yes, I am working very hard to resist that.

R: I think everybody feels that way by the way - whether they're literally in the position that you are where you can essentially set it, it doesn't necessarily mean people are going to follow it. Or, there are people who are following something that was preordained for them in an organization and they're like this doesn't make any sense. Why do we have to do it the inefficient way?

M: Yeah, look I'll say it a different way. When you…You know I came up through the work. So there are parts of the business, advertising, now even marketing brand that I feel like I know intimately.

R: Yeah.

M: I've never lead a product organization. I've never been in a designer. You know there are lots of…I have a new products and ventures team. I've not personally done BD, so really like learning how to lead from a seat in the balcony you know. There were moments in my career where leadership meant being the director of the show. So like sending sending the cast out and making sure it all went well and then there were moments in my career where maybe I had a front row seat to the show but I wasn't like backstage directing everybody. I'm now in a moment of my career where I am learning in many ways to sit in the balcony where you have this great and very different perspective. You can see things that you know that the leaders of the functional areas or the cross-functional work can't see and your job… My job is to call that and say hey based on what I see... Are you thinking about this, are you thinking about this. But it's a very different exercise to lead from the balcony than it is to do it from the front row, or even backstage.

R: Is The New York Times ever going to accept Bitcoin as a form of payment?

M: Oh, such a good question I’m not going to answer that. You'll have to you'll have to find out.

R: OK. Well you're not saying no. So perhaps…

M: Look, I think bitcoin is such an I mean, I'm even more interested right now in just the story of of Bitcoin.

R: Yes.

M: I'm super interested in business journalism. We've got a huge push to re-imagine our own business journalism, invest in business journalism, the bitcoin story to me is like one of the most exciting stories about how technology is changing everything on the planet.

R: Yes.

M: But we've got one or two things to do on our pay model before we get to taking Bitcoin.

R: Well I'm really fascinated by Bitcoin. And just like even the history of it with the Satoshi Nakamoto this founder who you know we don't know if it's a he or she or a group of people who was on the scene in 2009 and completely disappeared in 2011. And then you have all these people who are millionaires but are they really millionaires from Bitcoin so that...

M: It's rich.

R: It is. It is. There's a lot there. When you look back on everything you were to go back 10-20 years ago in your career and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

M: I think, I'm still giving myself this piece of advice. I've just been in a hurry like I… You know I was born early. Like…

R: How early were you born?

M: Not so…A little bit.

R: But you were in a rush.

M: I’m in a rush! And I just need to slow you down. And I I wish I had moved more slowly and thoughtfully through particular passages and that's another thing you know I'm like really interested in millennials. And how they meditate and how they've like made meditation cool. Like I think one of the things that that generation versus mine is doing so much better, is just like mindfulness and thoughtfulness. So I would have liked to slow down through some of the passages and honestly like enjoy them more.

R: Yes.

M: Taken more from them, like I I've not been great. Like I love my work. But like loving it and enjoying it are two very different things. And I've like I missed out a lot certainly pre-40 on the enjoying. Because and I wasn't even I wouldn't even tell you like it's that I was so ambitious and I was trying to get the next job. It was more. It's just that like I don't know that I had the… That I could move slowly through things enough to take the joy from them that was there for the taking. I’m working on that now, and I'm also working on how do I create the conditions for the people on my team to do that so that they want to be there for the long haul and doing this work for the long haul.

R: Well said. That reminds me of Carolyn Everson from Facebook.

M: Yes who I know well.

R: She was here, another great conversation here on No Limits and she talked about the idea of Facebook having to make sure that there’s value in your work that it's not just about whatever the goals are, the objectives of the organization but individuals have to feel like they're being fulfilled by this as well. Do you meditate?

M: I don't. But I will learn to. I have made that an official resolution. I’m going to work on the… just talking less. They're probably related. I do though I'll tell you something I do now that I didn't used to do. The only time I am alone. And by the way that's like a gift in my life. That I get to be surrounded by amazing people all day including my family but that the only time I’m alone is very early in the morning. So in my old age, my mid-late 40s I'm now waking up very early. My husband like can't quite get over it.

R: What is very early?

M: Like some days I get up at five or five thirty.

R: Yeah that’s early.

M: For me it's very early. I didn't used to be that person. It's hard for some to believe I could be that person now. And I like go down, we have this like very comfortable spot in our dining room there's like a very comfy couch in it and I sit there like my PJ's and I do my think work then and I catch up on my reading, and if there's anything I have to do that really requires thought so and some mindfulness for the work, I do that. And so I have this like space for myself pre let's call it 7:30 when my little boy wakes up and I take that space now. I didn't used to do that and I sort of sort it out. I've got to have that. Or I'm just like not grounded enough during the day so that's become really important to me. To just like be able to you know be anyone's mom or boss or partner or servant or work for someone like, if I don't have that space to myself at the beginning of the day I can’t make it for other people.

R: Your point earlier about being in a rush really resonates with me and this idea of enjoying the moments and enjoying the journey and not you made an interesting point. It wasn't just about ambition or wanting more but there is this feeling that if there is a success then you have to make the most of that success and if you don't make the most of that success then you're wasting something.

M: Totally.

R: And not enjoying that.

M: Yeah.

R: And not saying that was really cool. And this is a fun thing. And instead just being like OK what's next, like what can we do more, what can I use on the back of this success to do the next thing?

M: I'll say for me. It really came less from a place of ambition. I probably look ruthlessly ambitious from the outside, I’m not. It comes from much worse place. I think ambition is like a productive thing. For me came from just a place of fear. So you know fear… You know I mentioned that when I was a little girl there was a moment where my dad lost his job and like that made an indelible impression on me and I think like, in the end it all worked out for him and he had a great life and an amazing family and did work that he really believed in. But from very early on, I had this fear like will I be able to be in control of wanting to do the work that I want to do and wanting to have the impact that I want to have… And being able to provide for myself my family. Like those things like very early were things that I was worried about. So I would say like I hurried a lot and I worried a lot. And I'm working very hard on both of those things to not do either, and I would say the only thing I give myself like I worry a lot about my child. I think everything else doesn't deserve the worry that I probably gave it early on.

R: I'm a very neurotic person so I can get on board with the hurry and the worry. What along the way is the worst advice you’ve received?

M: So I want to I want to set this up by saying my husband is like the best coach that I have professionally. Like he himself, we are so different in who we are in the professional world and I admire him a lot. And he he just, he is unbelievably brave. And I've learned a lot from that. But he actually gave me what came to be the worst piece of advice I've gotten. And also the the one that I'm like trying to get like the thing I'm still trying to get past. And I tell the story a lot. I took a very short maternity leave. And when I was going back to work I was the publisher of Forbes at the time. The morning I took like five weeks of leave, and the morning I was going back to work... I was a mess. And on my literally on my way out the door, my husband said “bye, love you don't talk about the baby.”

R: Oh wow.

M: I was like what. And he was like don't talk about the baby. Because they're not going to take you seriously as an executive! Like you are this bad ass executive. Don't talk about the baby. And like I think about that so much now. I have a six and a half year old that was only six and a half years ago. But I am so focused now on what it means for women and men who work who are parents, and spouses, and kids of aging parents, and or even who are single people who have obligations to other things. And I am like radically focused on how do we as an employer like honor the other commitments that people have in their lives. And how do we, in appropriate ways like let people bring their full selves to work.

R: Yeah.

M: And I'm I'm pretty obsessed with that. I don't think I did a very good job of that. It's a hard lesson. I don't think I was very good at that in my 30s. I was a boss for a lot of my 30s. And you know, I was a boss who outworked everyone. And so by doing that I probably made people around me. I probably still make people around me feel like, you know you got to like put in the time and it's really about putting in the service, and putting in the original insight. And those things don't necessarily have to be in hours and it's really about bringing your whole self to work because people are most comfortable when they aren't trying to compensate for something they really aren’t. And so that whole like don't talk about the baby. You know what I'm thinking about my baby six and a half I still think about the baby. I think about him all the time! I'm also thinking about The New York times all the time and how to get more people to care about serious journalism and like that's OK.

R: I think that's a great point. Yeah I think about the world has very dramatically changed. Also when I started 15-20 years ago working my mom would have given me the exact same advice I wasn't pregnant or having a baby at the time, but it was like don't talk about your personal life.

M: Yeah.

R: Do not bring your personal life to work, don't integrate it especially as a female. I worked in business in the beginning and it was really frowned upon at that time and I think the world has come a long way but there are clearly still industries where that doesn't exist.

M: Totally.

R: Jobs where it is not a bring your whole self to work mentality. But I also think that the world has changed so dramatically because it really is so much more 24/7. You know we all have our iPhone or whatever it is that keeps us connected to the job. Therefore it is much more integrated for many employees into their full life.

M: Completely. Like I you know I made a series of choices about where I live, where my son goes to school. Like I live and I work and my son goes to school within a 25 block radius so that I can you know so he can...

R: You maximize it.

M: It's like those are my life and that's a big life hack for me. That's you know, how do you find and by the way it's a privilege I get to do that. Like not everybody has that option. Not everybody can live close to where they work. So so I'm spending in my, again, at this moment in my career in as COO of The New York Times. I will say like I probably haven't always been a leader who's created a work environment where people can feel that way. Where they can particularly around just like putting in the time, and so forth and I'm working really hard now for us as a company. And just for my own like impact on the world. To make it a space where all different kinds of people: parents, children of aging parents, men, women. People who have other interests, and people who are different can feel like I can bring my whole self. And therefore I can be more productive when you need service or original insight from me.

R: Before we go. I've been personally thinking a lot about the sexual harassment conversation and every day we read a story about someone else. So many brave people have come forward and shared their stories. Where do you think it goes from here and what do you think will be the most productive outcome that this conversation has ignited?

M: I think the the really important thing this conversation has ignited is to say, that there are a set of behaviors that are, that sometimes go with power when power goes wrong that are utterly unacceptable. And that need to be like drummed out of the workplace, and frankly drummed out of society. So that is just like so apparent and clear to me. I think there's a whole other set of conversations around talent and inclusion and the relationship between people in work, and men and women in the workplace and you know inclusion is a broad topic it's not just about men and women. It's also about why are there so few people of color in leadership positions in large companies. And how do we fix that. And I think to the extent that we have broken open a very new place in the dialogue here, I'm really excited about that. I also worry that that we don't become so that people don't become afraid to talk about it.

R: Right, yeah.

M: I was in conversation this morning where I, look I think I think men have to be a part of this conversation. And I think there's a lot of fear around that and I understand that. One of the things I find myself saying is we have to treat everybody fairly and you know fairness means people can speak their minds. And we have to create a forum for that so I'm very interested. I think the Times has done a very good job of that, very interested in our continuing to do that. I'm very interested in the leaders I work with and myself, creating a forum for productive dialogue on our teams because look you know society is multicultural. There are men, there are women, there are white people, there are people of color. There are introverts and extroverts. I mean one of my big learnings is I'm an extreme extrovert. As I got older in business, I realized I'd probably like cut off a whole group of people who were introverts who had like all this value to add. Yeah I'm an ENFP like an off the charts one. And you know what like the last three or four big important awesome hires I’ve made are extreme introverts like. We need that. You need to surround yourself with people who are different from you to be effective. That is what stretches us by the way, that produces better products. That produces better journalism. So I am super interested in this moment in the world being one in which that conversation becomes more, not less productive.

R: I agree. And I also think sort of to your point and I'm not sure whether it's The New York Times or it's somehow in the public domain. My wish is that we can have a conversation where people test ideas and that we give each other space to say something out loud that we can reconsider. Like you know if everybody comes to the table with respect, and the ideal is that the best outcome for everybody: equality, more leadership for women, more leadership for underrepresented minorities in all of these different roles. But I do agree that there has to be the ability to have a conversation and for people to say things out loud and hear an alternative standpoint much like I think about college. You know I loved college because you could have these conversations and test an idea and say: actually you know what. Now that you've said this thing, I actually that's a great point of view and I agree with that great point of view. And I have my my thinking has been challenged. And now, we're all stronger for it.

M: That's right. And I… Look if you look at the current political climate, if you look at what has happened in I don't think this is the case of The Times but in to a lot of news. We are living in a time and in a society where people are interested in what they're interested in.

R: Yeah.

M: Not all people, but there is high interest and like feed me more of what I already believe and I'm scared about that on this topic because I do think we need to push each other. And an inclusive workplace is one that has many more women in leadership. Many more people of color in leadership but also men.

R: Yes.

M: And I think men have to be part of the conversation and we have to give them the space to be.

R: You piqued my interest on one last final topic which is clearly social media has fed into this idea that we live in bubbles, and we choose reinforcing ideas many of the much of the time we choose sources that reinforce our personal notions. I know you're not on the editorial side, but how does the New York Times think about that. And what do you think The New York Times’ responsibility is in forcing people to look outside of that bubble and challenging them to think potentially outside of what they already do?

M: Oh yes, so I mean we think about this and talk about this all day every day. Look, I believe that and I think The New York Times believes that journalism should provide a place for intelligent thoughtful dialogue from all perspectives.

R: In the comments section. I'm kidding.

M: Look, I think I know that the comments I always say like if you want to understand New York Times readers read the comments they're pretty darn intelligent. But I mean, look we've got a robust Opinion section and we do quite a bit of opinion writing online and that is some of… That is a lot of what people come to us for. And I, we really see ourselves as a place for intelligent debate. We hired a columnist from The Journal named Bret Stephens. Gosh, now like a year ago and you know the people were not quiet about their views of The Times hiring somebody with a pretty different viewpoint from some of the other folks you would see regularly in our Opinion pages. And we did it in a moment in the world where I think a lot of the public expected us to go the other way like. You know we we are not we are not the opposition to the current administration. We are not an advocacy organization. We are a place for intelligent ideas and debate of all kinds and you're going to see us continue to push it that way.

R: Meredith Kopit Levien thank you so much for joining us on No Limits.

M: It's such a privilege to be here. Thanks for having me.