“There is a limit to what you can do and create and how much money you can make working for somebody else.” - Kathleen Shannon

Checkout this week's new episode of the #NoLimitsPodcast featuring the co-hosts of the Being Boss podcast, Kathleen Shannon and Emily Thompson:

Welcome to a special crossover edition of No Limits, we’ve got two rock stars in the house today – the women behind the Being Boss podcast. Kathleen Shannon and Emily Thompson. Cue the applause, they are authors, self-proclaimed ‘business besties,’ and if you like what we’re doing at No Limits, their Being Boss podcast is a must listen. They’re creative entrepreneurs who walked away from executive roles to start their own companies. They’ve taken the road less traveled and they are killing it. In this episode, we’re talking about the right time to make the leap, the power of unsubscribe, the problem with listicles, you know those articles that tell you the 7 steps to be more successful as an entrepreneur. And why sweating the details especially early on really does pay off.

R: Kathleen Shannon and Emily Thompson, welcome to No Limits!

K: We're so excited to be here.

RJ: I'm so excited to have you with us. So you are phenomenal podcasters. "Being Boss," one of my favorites, sincerely. I've been following you for years now. You've been doing this for what? Almost three years now?

E: A little over three years now.

RJ: Over three years. And you also have your brand new book, just out.

K&E: Yes!

RJ: Tell us about the book.

E: Kathleen and I have been talking about writing a book, not necessarily together, but writing a book separately for our entire friendship. It was always one of those like life/business goals that we were sharing with each other a really long time ago. And once we started "Being Boss" and started diving into the content that makes up the podcast, and what the brand is, it became super obvious that the book we were going to write was going to be written together. And that it would be about how to live and work as successful -- define your own success entrepreneurs. So it was a long gestation period. We’re glad that the baby is out into the world and that it's that it's here for everyone to enjoy I hope.

K: I know-- I know some people talk about spending years writing their books, and we wrote ours in four months. But it came out of years of conversation. So even before we started the Being Boss podcast which is where we talk about mindset, and habits, and routines, and boundaries and really building up your tribe and blending work and life and sometimes separating the two and hustling out your life as much as you hustle out the work. We've been having these conversations even before we were hitting publish on them. And that was a very rare and special thing especially as freelancers and creative entrepreneurs who are working from our homes trying to just get paid doing what we love. We were hopping on Skype, and having these conversations with each other because we didn't live in the same city and really talking about what works and what doesn't. And the little struggles and the big wins or the little wins along the way, and talking shop and getting into numbers and talking about money. And actually saying here's how much I'm making and here's how much I would like to be making. So the book is a conversation that is years in the making. And finally all in one place.

RJ: You call yourself ‘business besties.’ You both are entrepreneurs, you both had businesses. How did you connect in the first place?

K: Back in the blogging days. So we have always been content creators and so we joke, I had a blog back in the Live Journal days so-- I think we're about the same age. But this is like MySpace, Live Journal, very "dear diary" and I remember my first blog on a blog spot was about remodeling my home and it was about the traveling adventures I was taking. And then my biggest adventure was quitting my day job and working for myself. I don't come from an entrepreneurial family. And Emily was also blogging and so at that time it felt like a small world. And our paths had crossed and we actually met in person at a conference. And you know there is something about that face time that really seals the deal. And then we started hiring each other. So I was doing personal branding for creative entrepreneurs. And Emily was developing out websites and helping get online entrepreneurs into their own space online especially where they could be doing e-commerce. So, like jewelers who want to get off of Etsy. And so Emily helped me with my website and gave me some ideas to launch an e-course she's always had her finger on the pulse, and then I don't know if we're here yet in the story but she was like let's start a podcast.

E: Basically after several years of conversations that came from those early blog post comments, and meeting each other at the conference, and working together and even sort of passing clients back and forth over a couple of years, we got to know each other's work ethic and just overall sense of humor and all those little things that add up to a really good relationship. And then we decided to just start a creative project together. So we had been sharing clients, we had tried a couple of things on the side. What we really wanted to do though was make something together we went into creating the podcast with the idea of I don't know just doing something for fun and I feel like that's really when like a business bestie status went to the next level. Because it wasn't, at that point just having conversations for our own wants and needs. It was having them for the purpose of sharing them with others.

RJ: So you come together, you've got this podcast in mind. How long was it from the time you had the idea versus the first show?

K: Six weeks.

E: No no. It was less than a month. I'm pretty sure it was less than a month. I think like early December I sent Kathleen a text message or an email because I had had this idea we need to have a podcast. I sent her a pitch email-- is was all bulleted out. It was the most boss e-mail I've ever sent of pros and cons --

RJ: What was the biggest con?

E: The, biggest con was we both are going to hate how we sound, the sound of our own voice, but we'll get over it. It's like, we just have to-- that was the biggest con. We have to deal with the sound of our own voice. And then by the first Tuesday of January, so less than four weeks later we had a podcast in the world.

RJ: And how did you decide on the name, "Being Boss"?

K: We actually took the podcasts through my branding method that my branding agency does -- so is called The Braid Method. And so really relying on my sister who's my business partner over there, we were telling her about what we were trying to create, and these pillars of this foundational content that we really wanted to get across. We talked about our dream listener.

RJ: Who's your dream listener?

K: You know - other bosses! So probably a freelance creative entrepreneur, maybe probably a woman. But we're open to everybody, but we have attracted a lot of women listeners. And she's probably either young in her 20s or young in her career and maybe has a day job for a while but wants to quit and do her own thing or has the side hustle on the side, but is really wanting to try and figure out how to make money and make a living doing that thing.

RJ: With branding it's so important I think to know who your audience is and who you are. How did you come up with that?

E: Well we were almost "The Emily and Kathleen Show." That was the name of the podcast but that's before we really got clear on who the audience was. And at that point we had to rethink how it was we were positioning ourselves. We're not just going to be you know two chicks who are showing up and giggling at whatever it is we're giggling about that day --

K: But we kind of are.

E: But we do do that, obviously. We really wanted to provide these conversations to people who we knew were feeling exactly the way we felt. You know alone in our creative entrepreneurship. You know, sitting behind a computer by ourselves hours on end, wondering if anyone else is dealing with this or how it is that I'm even supposed to fix whatever it is I'm diving into at the moment. So at that point we had to turn away from the "Emily and Kathleen Show" and really think about the positioning of who it was we were talking to, and what it is that they want to achieve. And those people want to be boss. They want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms in a way that has them feeling fulfilled, either in their creative endeavors or in the business that will help them make money in that creative endeavor.

K: I would also say at the same time though we really know who we are and we're also really open to figuring it out as we go. So I think that whenever a lot of people are creating their businesses-- I am about to go off on a tangent, they too much about what their dream costumer customer wants and it kind of makes them-- they're kind of bending over backward and maybe even compromising, not their own integrity by any means, but their own desires.

E: And they're also making a lot of assumptions.

K: And assumptions. And so I think that there is a lot of-- you need to really know who you are and what you stand for and what your values are and what your message is.

RJ: That is so wise and I hear that theme a lot from business owners and creators here. Emily, your backstory; so you studied geography. Which caught my eye. How were you planning to use that?

E: I love this. You know my big beautiful dream, the one with sparkles and unicorns, was that I would work for the national park system. And I wanted to you know, go be a park ranger at Yellowstone -- which is, to get that spot, it's basically like winning a lottery.

K: I was about to say, let's go do that now.

E: Right? Exactly.

RJ: Would you still consider that?

E: Would I still consider that... Maybe?

RJ: You could still do the podcast.

E: Maybe I would, but also really maybe not. I'm legit afraid of bears. So really maybe not when it came down to it. And those outfits aren't super cute, though I'm sure those shoes are super comfortable. I don't know. I think I would rather visit them and you know use my entrepreneurship to give me really amazing long vacations so I can just go camp and enjoy them as a consumer.

K: And not have to dig a trail.

E: Exactly. Not pull someone out of a trench. I don't even know what. But yes I wanted to work for the-- I wanted to work for national parks. But I ended up potentially being more destined for a desk job. Digitizing maps which would have probably been all right but gave me the heebie jeebies.

RJ: Why? Boredom?

E: Boredom. Hardcore boredom. I would sit there for hours you know doing these assignments to you know get my degree and you'd get 18 hours into a project and the servers would crash, and I remember very consciously saying one day, I will never have a job that requires that consistent use of a computer. And then I became a web designer.

RJ: Kathleen, you were mentioning earlier, you're at your desk job and you thought "I have to go." What was the turning point where you were ready to walk away?

K: I became obsessed with Mt. Everest and I wanted to go see it with my own eyeballs. And that's a long trek to the other side of the world and it took a three to four week trip and I only had two weeks of a paid vacation. So I was blogging as I mentioned, I had gotten married. I posted my wedding invitations to my blog-- and this was right before of that Pinterest, Etsy generation where you could find really cool designs just at the snap of a finger. And so I had designed these really cool Wes Anderson-inspired wedding invitations and they caught the attention of a lot of other you know offbeat brides and couples who were asking me if I could design something like that for them. It's funny because I was the lead designer for the NBA that was in Oklahoma City at the time and I was doing a lot of really cool strategic work for financial institutions. And so then to be able to just design wedding invitations felt like design for design sake and that was really fun to me at that time. And then I also wanted to go to Mt. Everest. And so it was kind of this perfect storm of opportunity and then personal life desires to want to travel, that really nudged me out of the nest. Now I will say I was working with my sister. My sister is seven years older than me and she was my creative director. So I loved it. I loved my job. I loved the people that I worked with and I work with a lot of them now at my own agency. And so it was really great. I just felt like there was something bigger. I mean your show is called "No Limits," right? There is a limit to what you can do and create and how much money you can make working for somebody else. So I kind of compare it to renting your home versus owning your home. I was ready to own my home. I was ready to own my job, to make goals and to do it on my own terms.

RJ: So speaking of money after you made that leap, were you financially able to keep up and generate the same kind of income right away?

K: Yeah. So I should mention that I was in Oklahoma City. So this is a very location specific thing where I felt like I was afforded the opportunity. I mean as the cost of living is incredibly cheap there and I was able to make as much my first year as I was as a senior art director and then the next year I doubled it, and then the year I tripled it.

RJ: Wow. Did you do a business plan when you were starting?

K: No. No. No. So we were just interviewing you for our podcasts and we were talking about having the support of a partner and how incredibly important that is. And my husband definitely made it so that financially, but even more than financially, more like emotionally and energetically-- I had so much support in quitting my job and we knew that we could pay the bills on his one income. And sometimes I'm embarrassed to say that because I want to be so independent and to be able to say 'I could do this on my own.' And that's why I love having a business partner like Emily because she is the breadwinner. She is she's always been pulling in the money for her family. So I know that I could do it on my own, but I also really-- one my values and something I crave is security. And so it really did help me take that leap. But yeah. And I remember the day I quit. I was kind of freaking out about money a little bit. Of course. And it's not just the money itself. It's like, the money is a measurement of your value to the world. Right. And I wanted to be of value to the world and I wanted to be of value to my household. And the day I quit, my husband said one day you will be making more than I am. And he's an electronics software engineer. And then one day that happened and we high fived each other.

RJ: So Emily you have a theme for every year.

E: I do.

RJ: What's this year's theme this year?

E: It's peace.

RJ: What is that going to look like?

E: Today peace felt like and looked like me sitting cross-legged in my chair on the airplane eating some granola during airplane turbulence and trying to keep my cool. And I did, and it felt fine. And it usually feels very not glamorous like that. Or this morning having to wake up at 4:30 to go get in the tub as opposed to the shower because of some shower work that's happening and me sitting in the tub in the dark like just finding my moment of peace before you know a really full schedule for my day. Peace is little moments. It is in finding the quiet in any moment, very small, usually very loud and just being fine with it.

RJ: Kathleen, I feel like that plays into your message of unsubscribe. This article that you wrote about learning to unsubscribe I thought was fabulous.

K: Wow you're digging in.

RJ: I do a little research -- I have an amazing team. Taylor Dunn, Anie Osakwe, Michelle Boncardo. They help.

K: Yeah I mean there's so much noise out there. And with all the content that's being created right now and-- we're creating content in our businesses, personally and professionally, a long time ago and after 10 years that adds up, right? And so there is a lot of noise out there and everyone has a newsletter and an email list, and everyone has an Instagram and if you need to hit unsubscribe to feel a little bit either better about yourself or even just to get focus-- I kind of think of it more as putting the blinders on-- so that you aren't being swayed by what other people are doing, you're not falling into a comparison trap and thinking that the world doesn't need what you have to offer, then hit unsubscribe. And even if that means unsubscribing from my newsletter, that's OK too.

RJ: One of the things-- well that's not okay with me. Don't unsubscribe. But I appreciate where you're coming from. And one of the things I really liked as I was reading some of your work, the point about your success doesn't negate someone else's success. And the idea that we can all be successful doing the things that we're doing and I think sometimes that Instagram world can feel like oh well this person did this thing so my opportunity doesn't exist anymore--and I think that's really mistaken thinking.

K: Yeah you know it's funny because I think that even 5-10 years ago I could be sitting in this room being like 'why am I not Rebecca Jarvis.' What's wrong with me, right? Like thinking, this is so cool what an amazing setup. And instead of we can sit here and be inspired and say wow we need a studio space like this for "Being Boss.' And for me it's about surrounding myself with people who are going to inspire me and make me want to be the better version of myself as a mom, as a boss, as all the things, right? And there's enough room for all of us. All of us are creating things that will resonate with our dream customer or our friends or our -- you know whoever we're making things for. It will resonate in different ways. And it's so incredibly important. I would rather have 300 people looking at my work and really be impacted by it than millions who are just reading, I don't know, a listicle or something. You know what I mean? I want my work to be meaningful and impactful.

RJ: Well the admiration is absolutely mutual and one thing part of where my admiration comes from is I said it when we were doing the podcast for "Being Boss,"which by the way listeners you should absolutely go take a listen to the Being Boss podcast if you're not familiar with the yet because it's a great great thing. And I just did an interview with Kathleen and Emily that I really enjoyed. You guys are great interviewers. But one of the things that I think comes up a lot on the show is being real and understanding that all of these concepts are very personal. And so when one person says this is the thing that's the best thing doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be the case for you.

E: Yeah for sure. I mean it's one of those things where -- we're all-- we all see the books or the articles come through or whatever. You know these "blueprints" for success or "these are the six steps that you take" to get whatever it is that you want. And you only have to try one or two of those to find out that those blueprints aren't real and that you know you may get to your six figures or whatever but it's not going to super make you happy. There is a requirement that you are consistently looking at yourself and what it is that you desire and how it is that you define success and you take the steps that you need to take on your path to get there. And it will never look like anyone else's path. And if it does you're not going where you’re supposed to be going you're going where someone else is going. And I think that's a really important piece of that puzzle where you know, your success isn't going to take away from someone else's because everyone's path is different. We're not all heading to the exact same place. And the faster you can wrap your head around that and you know, reframe this idea of jealousy into inspiration or whatever it may be, the faster you're going to be going down the path that you want to be-- happily getting to a place that is your ultimate happiness.

RJ: How do you get unstuck if you feel yourself caught in one of these Instagram rabbit holes, or I'm not doing enough, or we're trying so hard but people aren't catching on.

E: I usually call Kathleen, quite honestly. I call up a friend of mine who's going to set me straight. Whatever it may be. Someone who knows me who knows what I value. Who knows what I'm working for. Who knows me and tell them 'Look I saw this thing the other day that has me totally jacked up I'm really angry about it or like sad or depressed or I feel like I'm not working hard enough' or whatever it may be and have them snap me out of it usually only takes about 10 minutes of a conversation for me to get back on my path.

K: We're also big fans of making lists and I think that we both do this anytime we're both feeling stuck-- we get out a piece of paper and just start writing. And I think that lists are even better than journaling because we're not getting in our head and going down to introspective spiral. That's not productive. A list might be things that you want to see or it might be things that you want to make or big goals that you want to achieve. And once you have it, I mean I have there's this magic about making lists-- I don't know if you make lists Rebecca, but I feel like in my past, I can look back at lists I made five years ago and I've accomplished almost every single thing. And maybe not on the timeline that I thought it would be but I accomplished it. And so if I'm falling down an Instagram rabbit hole where I'm starting to feel jealous or fear of missing out or guilty or any of those low vibing emotions, I make a list and then I get to action. I mean if I'm jealous of someone who is celebrating their most recent launch with mimosas, well guess what, I can go buy some champagne and OJ too.

K: There's nothing stopping me from having that same kind of life and so it really is taking that jealousy and turning it into you know action and inspiration.

RJ: Something we talked a lot on Being Boss that I really enjoyed was this idea of when to say yes when to say no. And in the context of that list, you make these lists and they're the big things that you want to make sure. How do you make sure that all the little stuff doesn't encroach on the big stuff?

K: I think that's such a good question. And for me I don't I have to say I don't actively think about it. I think it's about getting clear on the list and then pairing that with getting clear on my values and intentions. And we were talking on the other show, on our show about you know the over use of the word authenticity and I agree it's used a lot but it's a good word. And I think it's something that we are all really craving. It’s just being who you are a hundred percent of the time. And so I am always filtering everything that I do, the little steps along the way, through that lens of my values. Is this going to help me be who I am and become who I want to be? And is this going to help the audience I serve be more of who they are? And trust that the little decisions being filtered through those values and intentions one step at a time are eventually going to get to the big list goals. And I've also found over time that I can't really muscle my way through those big list items. Now, I've certainly done that. Like I've said I want to go see Mt. Everest. I buy a ticket to Kathmandu. I make it to Everest. But some of those other things are kind of just a happen chance. So for example whenever we were talking about promoting this book I said 'I don't know what it is but I'm seeing a stage, I'm seeing lights, we're going to be on a stage like a Good Morning America kind of situation.' I said this out loud to Emily, she can vouch. And now here we are with you. And that was just an e-mail that landed in our inbox, right? So I feel like there's this kind of this manifestation secret kind of thing that happens with list-making as well.

RJ: That's so awesome.

E: And I think again there is some magic to not forcing the list but just clarifying the list and then letting it all unfold as it needs to. And I think that's important. I think that sometimes you do need to muscle through and you know get to Everest, but sometimes you just need to wait.

RJ: I agree with that, experience too. I remember early in my career there were often times where I was kind of like 'well why can't I just do this other thing that's bigger than where I am right now' and people would say 'experience.' The reality is, sometimes nothing can replace that experience. You can read a book, you can spend extra time trying to get there faster, but sometimes it's just about going through the motions.

K: Yeah. And you get that experience by truly just showing up. And so Emily was talking about how there's not a blueprint and there's not a specific formula. But I think that the characteristic that we see in bosses and that anyone listening to this show can do is simply write a list and not be afraid of knowing what you want. I think that you know that's the scariest thing, right? It’s just saying I have this big goal and then admitting it to yourself by writing it down, I think that's one of the most powerful things you can do.

RJ: What's the scariest goal you've admitted to yourself?

E: TV show.

K: Yeah we want a TV show.

RJ: What is it going to look like?

E: We've had a couple of conversations about it. I see it being a little more like Cupcake Wars, which is like the profit. Kathleen is envisioning...

K: I see it more like a Netflix like Chelsea Handler, her most recent talk show I could imagine something more along those lines.

RJ: I’m excited to watch it.

K: But whenever it comes to those big goals-- so then I think about that. Well what's stopping me from having a TV show? I have an iPhone right here that I can film on and I've got YouTube at the click of a finger. So we could create that and make it happen. And so that's something else to where you can make do with what you've got. And you can start to create the feeling or just be creative-- literally create the thing without it being an opportunity yet.

RJ: And a huge part of that, I would guess, this is true for me and I'm assuming it's true for you is, not being afraid to learn along the way and experiment along the way you guys strike me as two people who are really comfortable in that experimentation. How did you get to that point?

E: By falling on our faces over and over again. I mean we all started out thinking, all right, let's win, win win win. But failure is part of the process. And you know once you've been in it as long as we have, which you know not that it's that terribly long but 10 to 15 years for me in terms of working for myself, seven or eight for you-- you just learn that it's going to happen and the experimentation part is mandatory. You have to go into things not with the idea of like-- obviously somewhat with the idea that I want to prove this right but go into it with, let's find the 15 ways that I'm going to not succeed that way getting it right is more likely going to happen. It's not glamorous by any means but it's real and that's that's how you learn and gain experience and find out how to make it work.

K: Over at Being Boss, we have a few different mantras that we're always coming back to and mine are always really esoteric like "money is energy". And Emily's is "test and change." That's something that she taught me early on in my career and that you constantly have to iterate and see what's working. She even has this column, this is in our book, actually this exercise-- what's working, what's kind of working, and what's not working. And then running through the scientific method of like 'OK what's my hypothesis' and then if everything-- if you're testing and changing and going into everything as an experiment, failure doesn't hurt so bad because you're actually kind of looking to fail so you have the information as to what's not working.

RJ: What a great way of looking at it. What is the toughest lesson you've had to learn along the way?

K: Mine has been patience. So Emily and I tried launching a workshop together early in our business bestie friendship. We were like, wouldn't it be so cool to get five or six people together in Austin, Texas and have a workshop around branding and building an online business. We launched it we branded it... And one person signed up. And that was it. We had to refund their money and shut it down.

RJ: Why didn't it work?

K: It just wasn't the right time. For me, I think that this is where a little bit of trust in something bigger comes in. And so for me it just-- I think it wasn't the right time. And then Emily comes back you know a few years later with the idea of starting the podcast. We start the podcast. We say hey wouldn't it be cool to go on vacation to New Orleans together, and what if we invited some listeners? We just opened it up. We didn't have any grand ideas. Seventy five people later -- we had a mini conference and that was without even trying. So this thing that we had tried so desperately for this workshop a few years ago, it didn't work. And then a couple years later it was just easy. And so this is where I think timing comes in. And that patience of timing and just waiting for it to come back around the right time is important.

RJ: Before we go to Emily because I want to hear your answer too, in between that time there had to be this massive amount of doubt. So what -- or maybe there wasn't. But what was it that said OK - I just, I know I'm on to something and I'm willing to keep going for it even though this really didn't work out?

K: I think that's where it being kind of more a side passion project like it wasn't a massive doubt situation because we were still just working our day jobs. We're like 'well that didn't work out. Let's keep going.' Let's keep you know nicking away at what we're creating at our online development studio and my branding agency. And we were-- just we were working too hard to be consumed with any sort of doubt. Don't you think?

E: Too busy. Too busy to care. Or too busy to worry you for sure. Too busy to have negative feelings were just we were working. We had things to do.

K: You know I also feel more out today or more like 'ahh' because we're launching this book. I feel like now we have farther to fall.

RJ: Well, you have built so much at this point.

K: Yes, we have built so much-- at that time too we hadn't built as much as we've built today. So these days, I'm more like OK we have teams of people that we employ. We are creating things that we love creating and we want to keep doing it. So more than anything we just want to sustain that.

E: Alright, here's my lesson. You ready for this. Yeah been thinking about this the whole time you were talking. Mine I think-- and maybe not so much the hardest lesson but the one that I see there are people struggling with the most and the one that I see the best rewards from... Is learning to pay attention to the smallest details. One of the things that I've learned from you know writing the book and sort of taking our careers to this next level is that one of the things that separates bosses who are doing it, and those who are just trying to do it is that attention to detail. It's about knowing those broad strokes but being able to break it down into the smallest things and making them either look great or you're delivering great products to your customer you're remembering to put the right things in your signature.

E: I mean it's very like big and all encompassing. But I think that if you want to be great at something you have to know and like hold those details of everything and really like give it that final finesse before sending it out into the world. And not to say that that should keep anyone from publishing the thing, or launching the thing. But once you take that step, you have to dig back into the details over and over and over again. And I do-- I know that it's that consistent refining of whatever it is that you're making or creating or putting out into the world or, you know, how it is that you do your dishes or whatever it may be. It's the attention to detail that will set you above everyone else. And that one for some it's super hard to learn. For me, has definitely been a process. Whenever I look back at some of the first websites that I created versus you know the last website that I created. The difference is in the details.

RJ: How do you balance wanting to get out there and do your thing with being a perfectionist around the details?

E: Right? I'm all for -- it's funny I ride this really fantastic seesaw with details and perfection and launching before you're ready. I have no problem sending things out into the world that are kind of maybe a little crappy. Like if-- because it's that getting it out and knowing that people's eyes are on it that's going to bring me back in to refine it for sure. And if you're just sitting back there refining it -- like, you're not-- it's not doing any good. It hasn't done anything yet. It almost doesn't even warranty your attention yet. You have to... You have to publish it. You have to send it down to world whatever it may be before you come back and tweak those details. I obviously have like a standard for that awful rough draft that goes out into the world. But I certainly don't struggle with really hardcore perfectionism.

RJ: A question we ask everyone on the show, worst advice you've received along the way?

K: OK I think some of the worst advice, or maybe even the thing that I see creative entrepreneurs do before they really get out into their business-- like into the grind of their business, is feeling like they have to spend money to make money. And you hear them all the time, 'you've got to spend money to make money.' And I think in some cases that's true. Like whenever you get to a point that you're scaling. But I think that whenever you are first starting out, you just need to make some money. And so, one of my mantras is just make a hundred dollars today and I feel like that can really get you into the flow and make you really creative about getting that one customer or selling that one piece of jewelry or whatever it is that you're doing. You just need to get one out there to start off with. You don't need to have beautiful branding. You don't even need to have a website yet. You don't need to hire a publicist. You just need to get that one client. And so that's a mistake or you know a piece of advice. I see people falling down and it gets them in debt. Sometimes they're branding out something and spending $30,000 dollars on an entire branding package for a career that they realize they don't even like once it's launched. So I would say you know on the flip side of 'you have to spend money to make money' is just get that one client, or sell that one thing and think about just making a hundred dollar deal today. It doesn't have to be 6 figures, it doesn't have to be 7 figures. Just get out there and do it.

RJ: So to the skeptic who says 'OK Kathleen, you know you make it sound simple but like a hundred dollars today is not the easiest thing,' on your days where you were trying to hustle and figure it out what did you do? How did you make that hundred dollar sale?

K: OK. I think you've learned by now that I'm a little woo woo. I like some magic. And so I had a mentor tell me you have to make space for what you want. So I had just launched my business and I'm a designer so I was able to create my own brand. And this was seven years ago. Beautiful web site. A few blog posts in the can, big launch party, and then it felt like crickets chirping, right? Like where are the clients? So my mentor told me you have to make space for them. And I looked around my office I was like 'I've got space, there's space.' And he goes No you have to, you have to get out a poster board and draw some lines on it.' And I had this huge chalkboard wall in my office and I drew 10 blank spaces on it, and then I drew like a magnet with hearts around it that represented my clients. Within a week I had filled up those spaces-- so obviously I did the work and I put the attention on launching this thing. And the visual goal-setting and making space I think it's equal parts magic and equal parts putting your attention on a goal and making it visual so I would come into my office see those blank spaces and I would send out some e-mails. I would call some contacts I would write some blog posts I would show up and put myself out there in order to reach those goals. So that's what it looks like for me.

RJ: Perfect.

E: Love that Kathleen.

RJ: Yeah.

E: I was there for those days. It was good. So I think I think some of the worst advice-- I remember hearing this a little bit. I've always been a little too headstrong for people to really give me advice. They're like 'we know she's not going to take it.' But I hear this from people a lot and this is the idea that you have to, one either go along the career path that you got your education in, or that once you choose your career path like that's it forever. And that's so wrong. And so, and not sad if you're doing it you're not sad for sure but for so many of us you know college is just part of the path. And it's only, like colleges four, five, six, seven, eight, nine years ... depending. Such a small part of your life. And you're not destined to choose the next 60-70 years of your life based on a decision you make when you're 18. I think there's so many people put so much weight there that they end up taking themselves down a path that is not their own. Instead of looking at that experience or even you know the first career or two that you get into, instead of looking at those as ways to enrich your life or add tools to your tool belt that will take you into something that you actually desire doing. So, it doesn't matter what that diploma says, it doesn't matter what your business card says. If there is something that you want to be doing or creating in the world those credentials don't mean that you can't.

K: I love that, and it also doesn't mean that you have to stop learning after college. I think that's probably something that we all have in common and certainly your listeners. If you are listening to podcasts you are a student of life you-- just want to soak it all up right? And you can keep learning along the way.

RJ: Well I learned so much from this conversation. Sincerely thank you so much to both of you for joining us here.

K: Thank you so much for having us, this has been a dream.

RJ: It's wonderful and the book is called "Being Boss: Take Control of your Work and Live Life on your own terms" Where can people listen to the being boss podcast?

E: You can find us at @Beingbossclub or anywhere that you listen to podcasts.

RJ: Wonderful. This was so much fun. Thank you for coming.

K&E: Thank you for having us!

Thanks so much for listening! If you like this episode, please subscribe to "No Limits" to rate and review!

Follow me on Social Media:

• Twitter
• Facebook
• Instagram