Leading with Curiosity and Humility: An Interview with Nicole Wiggins

#enduringsuccess #leadwithhumility #authenticself #diversityandequity #chooseandbecome #trust #reinvention

Hello from Trish

Newsletter Intro

In the Choose & Become Interview series, I delve into the five critical choices that led me to enduring success, and I unearth the inspirational stories of my guests as they share their journeys to enduring success with us using this five-choice framework.???

Each Create Enduring Success newsletter edition highlights one episode that you can link directly to or start by reading the quick summary along with some quotes from my guest that stuck with me.???

Today's Episode

In today's episode I talk with Nicole Wiggins, Chief Diversity Officer at Navistar, a large manufacturing company based out of the Chicagoland area.

Nicole has been married to her husband, Julian for over 20 years, and has two amazing children who fill her cup - "everyone says their kids are amazing, but mine are really amazing!"

Nicole is so refreshing and fun to talk with, and even manages to skillfully turn the tables a few times to have me answer her questions!

Nicole's 25+ year career at Navistar has been a journey in and of itself, and provides a rich and thought-provoking backdrop for our interview questions.

Identify what is your purpose and what is going to be your legacy - what is going to make you feel joyful and to jump out of bed in the morning and realize every day is a new day to have an impact.

Watch now . . . or read the below. ?

Enduring Success??

What does it mean to you to create enduring success?

When I think of enduring success, I think of sustainability and continuing to reinvent and redefine.

Enduring success is not about perfection, and I think sometimes this is where we get mixed up.

I'll share just real quickly. I've been with the company I'm with currently 25 years next month. And I think when people hear that they assume you've been in the same position for however long you said you were. I think endurance is continuing to reinvent and redefine.

So, where I was successful in my early 20s as someone who was more junior in my career with young children is very different than where I am now. I recently watched your TEDx Talk and I was really inspired about how you chose to just be a better you, right? You didn't want your past to define you.

I think sometimes that's where we get mixed up is we think that if I wasn't successful in this one thing, then I'm never going to be successful.

I think enduring success is about sustainability, reinventing, and just understanding that your journey is your individual journey. It's not someone else's.

Five Critical Choices

Come along with me as I explore Nicole's journey to enduring success within this five-choice framework.

Make a First Choice??

Success begins with making a first choice.

Will you share one of the first choices that you've made that really impacted your journey to enduring success, to this reinventing type of success? ?

I think it was finding my purpose. I think that, at least from my experience, I've always wanted to do things that fulfilled me and was a contribution to either the people or the organization that I am a part of.

I'll give you a short story - when I had the opportunity five years ago to transition into the diversity, equity, and inclusion space, I really was asking a lot of questions internally to myself but also to the organization.

Why now do we want to make this a focus in our organization? And why me? And I think a lot of those open-ended questions are so important to enduring success.

So identify what is your purpose? What is gonna make you feel joyful? What is going to make you wanna jump out the bed in the morning and realize every day is a new day to have a new beginning and to make an impact.

It may sound lofty but I really feel like people need to think through what is my purpose? What's going to be my legacy?

And it doesn't have to be anything like, solving world peace or hunger or whatever it may be, right? But something that's gonna make you feel like at the end of the day or when your end is coming, because we all have that at some point, right? - I feel good about the life I live.

Once you created, once you said, I want to find my purpose, has it been consistent?

Let's say, it's stayed consistent and I have been adding to my purpose. If you would have asked me maybe two or three years ago, let's say pre-COVID - because the times we live in are broken up by pre-COVID, COVID, and now - what's your legacy? Without a doubt, I would say my children, without a doubt. And if you ask me today, I'll still say my children. Yet I'll also add - it is the impact I make on so many others as well.

And part of enduring success is embracing the impact I have on others, and that was difficult for me to realize.

The positive impact that I had on others and how so many people were and still are depending on me to help make a difference, to make their work better. It just amazes me the things that I think I'm just doing because it's the right thing to do.

When people come and tell me like how amazed they are by these things, I mean, I'm forever grateful. Yet that's what keeps me going, is realizing it's more than me, Nicole. I'll be honest, I probably fought it for a while where I'm like, okay, this is just about me, my kids and my family and my husband. But it's so much more than that.

I'm gonna probably pick up this part of the conversation when we go to the fifth choice. So I'll put that out as some foreshadowing.

Commit to a Two-Way Agreement??

The second critical choice I made was to commit to a two-way agreement. A two-way agreement is when two parties come together with the intent to achieve a mutually beneficial objective, they construct the agreement together and hold each other accountable. The power is in committing to it.??

Give me your thoughts on two-way agreements and or a specific two-way agreement that pops in your mind that has been impactful on your journey. And for me, it was an agreement between me and my sister.

Shout out to sisters! Shout out to big sisters! I have a big sister too.

So I'm actually going to take it a little personal because I was thinking, I liked your example about the employee-employer. And I think sometimes people don't realize that they are in a two-way agreement with their employer. And they're looking at the fact, why do I work for this company? What's this company done for me? And not thinking so much about what have you done for the company?

But on a personal level, my husband and I met on my 16th birthday. And he told me the day he met me, that he was gonna marry me. And I thought he was crazy. I was like, what are you talking about?

I am the age I am now - and we've now been married for 20 years and together for 25 plus years - and I realize that when someone knows what they want, they know what they want. Right?

And so in terms of a marriage in general, at least from my experience in my marriage, I feel like the two-way agreement is, yes, when you're married, you come together as one in a union, yet you both still have separate lives.

I was talking to a friend of mine just recently, and he probably doesn't realize that he impacted me in this way with this just a statement. I was fussing about something, you know, and he just recently got married, him and his husband. And he said to me that one of the things he does - shout out to Dylan, that's his name - but one of the things he does is, he realizes this is his husband's life too.

So I think a lot of times when we're looking to meet our own personal goals, we don't always consider the other person.

I think there are so many two-way agreements that are made that you don't think about it that way. Marriage is just one that you're aware of, or you should be! Like whether it's your employer, whether it's your role as a parent, your role as a leader.

Mentor and a mentee.

Yes, yeah, a sponsor and a sponsee, someone that you're sponsoring, something like that. There's so many and I really love the way that you break it down to a two-way agreement because that's very simplistic yet it's often not realized. Thank you for that.

And I have since thought about not only in my life, but then when I'm working with others, like where is the breakdown sometimes in two-way agreements? And sometimes I reflect, right?

Just let's be clear and set the expectations and agree on them, right? It all comes down to communication, totally. Communication.

Build Trust???

I'm going to move us because the thing is, is I could literally have an interview with you for each of these! The third critical choice I made was to build trust in myself. I had to first build trust in myself before I could ever figure out how to inspire the trust of others.

So if it's okay with you, I'd like to start with building trust in yourself.

It's hard. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that much. It is not an easy feat to build trust in yourself. I think, and I'll take it back to, it was probably about eight years ago. And there was, you know, for those familiar with the industry that I'm in, which is automotive.

(Oh shoot, my dog's about to bark. Okay, okay, I'm just letting you know, I see a UPS truck, sorry. I see her rearing up to go, and then she'll go back to sleep!)

OK, as I was saying, the industry is cyclical and there was a point in time where, you know, the company was offering voluntary separation packages to people in the organization. And because of my tenure, I would have garnered a really decent package. And at the time in my career, in my role, I was kind of trying to figure things out, to be honest with you. I was doing work that I wasn't sure was still serving me and I knew I was still serving the organization, but I wasn't sure if it was still serving me and my purpose.

And obviously I was still, I was gainfully employed, which was always a blessing, but I wasn't sure if that was something I wanted to continue to do. So I remember talking to my manager at the time because in addition to myself taking this into consideration, I also had to provide information on my team. And I've always been fortunate enough to have these very close knit teams.

And anyway, I'll fast forward to the conversation with my manager. He asked me if anyone on my team had been considering taking, you know, the separation and, and I said, yes, everyone, including me. My manager just paused, and his face was pretty interesting.

Let's say I felt so liberated in that moment because I didn't have anything else lined up. I had to really trust.

I had talked to my husband. I had talked to my parents about it and they were like, if you're really that unhappy, this is an opportunity. You're marketable, you'll find something within the timeframe that you have.

I really felt liberated, but I really felt I had to trust myself to even take that chance, which is interesting because that's a two-way agreement too. It goes back to the two-way agreement. Because what I did not mention was either you could take the package or I could have potentially been laid off. I was really taking a chance.

Oh, that is a risk, right?

Right. So I wasn't sure if I was going to be impacted by the layoff or, you know, if I should just, you know, kind of write my own fate and take the package. So obviously I'm still here, as I mentioned 25 years in six months.

But again, I trusted myself to have a conversation that I may not have had otherwise about what value I felt that I brought and how I didn't feel like I was being valued. It forced a conversation that so many of us don't have.

Because we make these stories up in our head a lot of times, right? About what we should try to do or how the organization feels about you. We make up these stories in our head all the time. So it really, I think from that time on, I felt extremely liberated and where I could be my authentic self.

Well, I could say what do you have to lose, but I mean, there's plenty I could have lost. Yeah, but I really, I felt, and hopefully you're good with that example, because I really felt like I had to really trust myself in whatever the outcome, I was going to figure it out.

Yeah, you had something to lose. And I love the example. And it also brings home your comment about communication. Because you had to choose to trust yourself, by communicating your truth in the situation where you had something at risk. And if you wouldn't have communicated that, you might not be leading the people you're leading today, right? And the people that you embrace, that you're impacting, that you embrace, you are the leader that's impacting these lives.

So, how do people inspire your trust?

See, I wasn't quite sure how to answer this. So, inspire my trust. So, how do they inspire me to trust them?

Being authentic and doing what you say you're gonna do. I mean, it's real simple for me.

You know, if you show up when you say you will, those are things that I think in terms of who I trust and depend on or rely on.

I have done this personal assessment thing and one of the things that I got back continuously was that I was loyal in a sense to where I'm going to tell it like it is, yet if I tell you I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. So I feel like I expect and I want the same from others.

I'll be transparent. I do have a small circle of those that I consider friends, but I do have a wide range of acquaintances. And that's not to say that I trust some more than others, yet what I will say is if you're in any part of any of those circles, you are someone who I feel that I can trust.

Was it Maya Angelou who said - trust when people tell you who they are, believe them the first time. I'm butchering it up a little bit, but that's the gist of it.

When people show you who they are, believe them.

And then, until they disprove that. You go in with the intent to trust them.

Yeah, it takes a long time. It takes a long time with anything, right? Well, I shouldn't say with anything. With trust specifically. It may take a long time. I know some people who just trust off the bat. But for me it does take a while to develop trust in someone, but it takes only moments to lose it, unfortunately. I'm trying to do better.

Isn't it something that you could have 20 years of trust and one moment, one moment can just ruin everything. And I think about that with business and personal.

Yes, and then think about it, because it's about relationships. And you have to be careful what you trust people with too. I have this conversation with my kids too. There are people in your life for different reasons, seasons, all that kind of thing, right?

Yet there are people that I'll trust they're going to be exactly who they are and they're going do exactly what they do.

So don't expect, and I had this conversation with my husband as well, don't expect everyone to be what you are. Because you'll always be disappointed. Honestly, if you expect people to handle situations or be like you are, you'll be disappointed.

Create Community and Belonging??

This leads me to the fourth critical choice I made. You talked about circles, you have few very close friends, and then you have a lot of acquaintances and wherever you're at in that, there's a level of trust.

The fourth critical choice I made was to create community and then belonging. And then I figured out, well, those two kind of go together. It's communities of belonging. I mean, Nicole, I was 30 years old, I had more professional success than I could ever have imagined, especially after the journey I came from. Then all of a sudden I'm looking around wondering, what is missing? And it's because I was friendly with everyone and friends with no one.

You went through it though.

And that feeling of belonging, I actually didn't even know what it felt like. Now I do, and I treasure my friendships.

But did you want to be friends with people? That's what I was curious about.

I didn't until then. Because I still felt like something was missing from my life. I was independent at that point. You know, I was healthy at that point.

But why? I know you're supposed to be asking me the questions, I'm sorry.

I had no desire to be in an intimate relationship. So that had no bearing in my world. And I was like, ooh, look at them. I mean, they're over there and they seem to have a lot in common and look at them over there. And they're talking about things outside of work. Like they know each other in a way that's not just work-related. And I felt like a gap. I felt like, wait, I want that.

And what I figured out is I had to create it. It wasn't just gonna happen. On that day, I was gonna all of a sudden belong somewhere. And so I created friendships with five women that are still, you know, to this day, an incredible part of my journey.

So back to you Nicole! Can I ask you, what does it feel like to not belong? And then I'm gonna flip it to what does it feel like to belong? But what does it feel like not to belong and what's your perspective on creating that sense of belonging?

I work in a male dominated industry. Prior to moving into this space that I'm in now, which is diversity, equity and inclusion, I was often the only, in so many cases, the only woman, the only black person, and was dealing with an age gap too because again, it was a traditional environment. Let's just say in terms of the jobs that are in this corporate environment there weren't many people who looked like me.

You rarely saw people like me in those positions and of respect and power, honestly, right? So to feel like you don't belong can be extremely lonely and empty.

So a lot of times you go to the survival mode, and you end up having your work life and then your personal life and never should the two cross.

And I think, during the early part of my career, people had me by 30 years with the organization. I'd ask a lot of questions as young people tend to do. And never would I really accept the answer - "we do it this way because we always have done it this way" - because that doesn't make it make it make sense.

So no, I think it's extremely empty and lonely. And not to say you have to be this extreme extroverted person.

If you don't feel supported, and if you don't feel like you matter or you're not seen or you're not respected, that could be extremely lonely and just unfulfilling.

There are times when, if I'm facilitating this type of dialogue with a workshop with teams, I'll ask people and I ask myself this. We know what it feels like to not belong. Write down a name of somebody who is in your world that you think might not feel like they belong. Put a picture to that, you know, put a name to that, put realness to that. And then what are you going to do to try to help create that?

I love that.

So how does it feel to belong?

Amazing. So I'll shout out to my current peers and the senior leadership team that I'm a part of. I often refer to myself as an HR transplant, because it's not a space that I've worked in my entire career or such, right? But they embraced me right away.

And a lot of times to your point, you have to build that community. You have to build. Now, let me say that I did know a few of the leaders prior to joining the organization from working with them over the years, but not directly together.

This work is definitely not easy in terms of creating a more diverse, equitable and inclusive environment, both internally and for our external stakeholders. This is probably by far the most challenging work I've ever done, because again, you're having to continue to reinvent. You're having to be more aware of what's going on in the outside world than you really wanna know.

I think that because I have such a strong community, that is what keeps me going. Now, and that's what makes me wanna create community for people in our organization, and to continue to build so we can understand each other, our differences, our similarities.

When I first got in this space, I was like, what's important for people?

Leaders wanted to make great community for our organization. Yet certain things within their communities were not up for discussion, honestly. Like people just, I don't know, they just really didn't want to talk about it. And that's a lot of people pre-COVID, right?

Yet what we were able to do during COVID when everyone needed community was to create that community and that sense of belonging. This is not just for our corporate employees, but people who have been working remote prior to Covid. Our manufacturing employees, our employees in our parts distribution centers. And so with that, going back to when I first started, I said, if people could just stop being a**holes, we'd live in a much better world.

I mean, seriously, if you start realizing your reality is different than mine and vice versa.

I was talking to one of the leaders a while back and he said - "our people want this, this and this." I said, you realize that other people want that too, even if they're not a part of your community.

And he had to pause because, you know, just simple human things like, I want my children to have a great education. I want to be successful. I want that. That's not specific to your community. That's a specific to humanity.

I think when you feel like you belong, you could have those types of conversations with people and you could show up and be your authentic self and you can feel like you're being heard, seen and respected.

And just because someone is not like you doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them. We have to respect people's differences, but we can also respect where we have our common needs and goals.

I love that. And that is one of the things that I've observed about you, and I think it's so important and so instrumental. In order to respect people's differences, you have to first understand what the differences are.

Yeah, so I've shifted from saying that, oh, I just asked a lot of questions to something that I feel like is a little more sophisticated. I said, I lean with curiosity and humility.

Because I do feel like it is, you know, ignorance is bliss, right? And we're all ignorant in some capacity.

Yet, if I want to know something, and I do, I'm curious about so many things, I lead with curiosity and humility because what other way is there to be?

Embrace Boundless Love??

My fifth critical choice was to embrace my boundless capacity to love. I'm not referring to love, the emotion. I am referring to love, the action, which is a choice.

Will you share perspective on this and an example of giving love? ??

So this is where I was fascinated with your story. Yet I didn't know if I was really ready to have these conversations, to be honest with you. And now that I've heard your story a few times I feel like it's being humble and having a certain level of empathy. While I can't personally relate to what you've been through, I can respect you as another woman and empathize with you to where I'm showing up, like I'm showing up here.

You're getting Nicole 100% here. And so I feel like I'm showing up, showing respect and ultimately love.

I'm not wanting to use the word love loosely, but I know I've been using that word a lot more. I'm one who's about giving people their flowers while they're still here, because I've experienced a lot of loss.

But when you show up as your 100% authentic self, I feel like you're giving love and you're ready to receive love that way. When you show up - this is who I am.

That's where it starts. You have to love yourself before you can love anyone else. And again I know you're asking most of the questions here but I think that's really what happened with you. When you figured out how to love yourself is when you were in a place to have that self-awareness to establish legacy, purpose and then to be able to give that to others. So you go ahead, girl.

Your examples just, just stay with me. Leading with curiosity and humility. To me, that's giving love. Showing up with your authentic self, giving and receiving love. There's a whole bunch of reasons why we don't, as human beings, show up giving all of our love - countless reasons.

And trust has something to do with that too, but you know, as you were saying earlier.

Yes, I feel like I need to feel safe with you, with the situation.

Yes, psychological safety, physical safety. There's a lot that goes into it. All of it goes together.

It all goes together. You have so beautifully put it all together, sharing your lessons of advice and wisdom and experience.

And Nicole, you choosing to show up and give me all of you today. And then even take some of me, take some more of me. I can't tell you how much I love it. I love it. I thank you so much for spending this time with me, for sharing your stories and your experience and yourself.

Final Thoughts from Trish?

After basking in Nicole's authenticity, and yes, her love, I think about all the reasons - and there are many - that we don't show up with the intent of giving and receiving love. ?

But when we do, when we do, that is when we truly create enduring success. Just like Nicole, we know our purpose, we define, we reinvent, we lead with curiosity and humility.

And I think about the communities of belonging - personal and professional - that Nicole has built by leading with empathy, respect and humility. And taking the time to ask the questions, to be curious, to understand our differences, and maybe even more importantly, to honor our similarities.

After spending this time with Nicole, I am more convinced than ever that when we lean into the idea of showing up in interactions to give love and receive it back, we all have the power to change the spaces we inhabit and create enduring success.

Episode Reflection and Action

• Do you know someone who may not feel they belong in a certain situation? Is there an action you can take - even just one - that might help to build this person's feeling of belonging and community?
• Where can you get curious? Has a friend, colleague or acquaintance said something recently that made you scratch your head because it just seemed so different from your reality? Is there a question you can ask that helps you to better understand their perspective and their reality?

Thank you! ??

Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Choose & Become Interview series.??Watch the full episode here.

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Wishing you all the best on your journey to enduring success.?????

Choose & become!????

Trish???

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Trish Kendall, an expert on creating enduring success, is proof that anyone can transform their life and become the most successful person in the world!????

Inspiring people everywhere, and providing a pathway to enduring success, Trish brings candid stories, humor in the face of true hardship, simple lessons, compassion, and love to all her speaking engagements and workshops.????

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