Interview with Maomao Hu, COO of Kora

Noah: Well, we are here with Maomao Hu, COO and co-founder of Kora. May I ask like a basic question? How does the Kora token system works?

Maomao: We’re building our own blockchain. Basically, Cryptoeconomics– you make it economically expensive, as well as cryptographically hard to attack a given system, or you use the economic cost to secure like a given system. So, that’s the basis of Cryptoeconomics and Kora. We’re running a delegated proof of stake blockchain, with bunch of stuff on top of it, but that’s at the root of it. That’s kind of the trust machine. We’re using the Kora network token as a staking token.

Noah: So you have partnerships in Nigeria; are you elsewhere in the world right now?

Maomao: So, yeah. We have two–. We are investigating a series of pilots in Columbia, the country, around coffee [inaudible], and that’s a very good market. There’s always a lot of money going through it, which is always good; it’s a growing industry. There’s a co-op bank in Bangladesh, that would be essentially the core banking systems, so between those two, that’s enough work for the whole year. I’m not looking for new pilots right now; between those two, I’d be quite happy.

Noah: And you have a Beta thats works, right? You have a working product, as opposed to 99% of the ICO’s .

Maomao: We do, yeah.

Noah: How long have you been in the blockchain space and how did you first get into it?

Mamao: Not that long. I feel like you don’t really join the space, until--it’s like everyone says they are aware of the space, but I just feel like you’re not really in the space until you do a startup; let go in all sheer abandonment and jump right in. I guess, by those standards, got in April of last year.

Noah: That’s when you first founded Kora?

Maomao: Yes.

Noah: What was the idea behind that? What’s your background in, if I may ask?

Maomao: Originally I was a management consultant, working in financial services/financial technology, and that’s when I first got exposed to blockchain, and before that, what I was interested in Occupy Wall Street, and, really, around their message of wealth is unfairly distributed. That’s what goes all the way back to, kind of, a deeper systematic understanding of the world. I went to school for graphic design and then end up going into finance and technology instead; started working on A.I. When i was a consultant, I was running an AI practice, so I was figuring out how to tailor offerings for a clients that were AI-centric. Then co-founded an AI company, and then I ended up doing Kora.

Noah: You said you saw an unbalance, a sort of inequality in the financial world. How does Kora seek to correct that and do you feel that thematically, or morally, there’s an obligation for people who practice in blockchain to try and change the world?

Maomao: I don’t feel like there’s a moral obligation for anyone to do anything. It’s a moral obligation for who that sets the story. I mean, if there’s a moral obligation, does that still make it moral? You don’t have to do anything to make it an obligation.

Noah: That’s true. The only reason I really got into blockchain was I believe so wholeheartedly in the message of shifting balance of power back into the people who need it, and restoring that balance because, as I told you, I wanted to use my talent as a storyteller to, again, relate the transformational aspects of blockchain and I don’t know if that’s a moral obligation, but it’s more of a why I got into it as well, and, maybe, why you did Kora.

Maomao: Why is that so important to you?

Noah: Well, I think, I’ve seen a lot and I like to think that people have to fight for something more than themselves in the world. That there’s more equity and equity is--we may not be able to do much by ourselves, but if we try to do something better together, that makes everything better and blockchain seems to represent a community aspect that believes in something like that.

Maomao: That’s interesting, because we must get back to that in a second, because it’s relevant, but I kind of disagree with half of what you are saying, and agree with the other half. I don’t necessarily agree that, as people, we need to fight for anything, but I do believe that, just for a purely almost economic standpoint, if we all work together to make towards a common goal, which enriches everyone, then to a certain degree, in many fields that is desirable. You       reach an outcome that’s better for everyone. I really do believe that that’s the case, in most points of life. The issue, I think, getting back to blockchain, is that it’s hard to work together with someone towards something for a shared goal if you don’t trust them.

Noah: That’s true. 

Maomao: To me, that’s what blockchain is really all about. It’s very simple--people in the blockchain industry see it as everything. They see it as a payment machine; you see it as a currency; you see it at a marketplace; you see it as an AWS; you see it as a ‘pump and dump’ machine; you see it as a casino; to me, blockchain is very simple. Blockchains are, consist of, data structure that can achieve reliable replication of data inside byzantine environments; which means that in environments where [if] everyone’s out to fuck you, you can still get your message across, and you can have people trust that you can still get your message across. What that really means is that, that’s trust. That trust is a very specific thing, that very really specifically defined thing, that still trusts in a certain way.

Noah: So philosophically, is that like blockchain is the ultimate distrust in the morals of humanity, since we have to create an operation where trust is absolute. You know you can trust somebody, but you have to have data to back that up; you have to have an outlet; a blockchain.

Maomao: People have been using algorithms for a long time. Cryptography goes back thousands of years. People are using cyphers- people are using encrypted- each person had their private field, and so you put three of these fields together, it’s a holding stake and that’s how you prove that document. People hide codes inside their banking documents, for it to write in a certain way. So I think all these things have been around for a long time; there’s ways for people to establish trust in certain types of technological ways, because what’s the alternative? The alternative is to know someone, and to spend a lot of time with them, and basically decide, unilaterally, that for whatever reason, you believe them when they say they are going to do something, and I think that freaks people out. I think that, a lot of times, that’s not good enough. 

Noah: That’s fascinating. I saw the use case of Kora was getting farmer’s money faster, directly. Fiat Currency or cryptocurrency?

Maomao: So, just to push back at that statement. I wouldn’t say the purpose of Kora is to get farmer’s paid faster–

Noah: That was the use case you had on your site?

Maomao: Yeah, that is a use case. Usually when people talk about cryptocurrency, they talk about Bitcoin and Ethereum; they talk about denationalized currency. With Kora, you would have a national currency that is cryptographically secure, that benefits from the Byzantine Fault Tolerant properties on a blockchain, without it being a denationalized cryptocurrency. Does that make sense?

Noah: Yes.

Maomao: In the sense, we facilitate a transfer of cryptocurrencies without really caring what those cryptocurrencies are, and with the goal of being accessible to as many people as possible.

Noah Klein: You also mentioned, you worked within the banking system as well, right? You want to be to be compliant with all regulations and be the motive of transfer, right?

Maomao: Even banking is kind of a monolithic term because there’s whole lot of financial divisions inside banks, inside the financial system.

Noah: There was an interesting part of the panel where Navroop criticized you for practicing in developing parts of the world as predatorial or colonial. What is your response to that and how do you feel about Kora focusing in places, like Nigeria and other places like that, as opposed to first going for, maybe, the unbanked in the United States, or others who don’t really have access to financial services?

Maomao: I think that’s a tricky question. Because colonialism, what it really represents is the imbalance of power between cultures, and, like it or not, me and my co-fonder are both more highly educated than a lot of people that we are working with; what does that represent? To really discuss that point on the basic– my users love the fact that it helps them get paid faster. To say this is colonialist, it seems overly abstract. To another certain degree, to go all the way back, when the British were colonizing Africa, they tried multiple mechanisms actually. They used local currency; they tried taxation; they tried like imprisonment; they tried corporeal punishment. Also, the only way it worked was taxation, where if they didn’t pay [the] tax, they killed you or take your field; they forced you to use currency that way. That’s was what really destroyed local economy under the British empire. So, in that sense, it’s really an expansion of state power. I don’t know if I call it colonist because it’s not like it’s a colonial power–

Noah: Now that’s interesting because I spoke to another guy, whose head of a blockchain called Neurochain, his name is Dr. Billal Chouli from France, and integrates artificial intelligence within the blockchain. Really fascinating stuff and he told me about a paper from an NSA guy who describes in 30 years or 20 years what the future of the world would look like, and the future of the world will be broken up into major corporations, and not nationalistic borders. So Amazonia, Google, Facebook in the same sort of colonist aspects.

Maomao: Funny you mention that. So I actually I went to [inaudible] school and I, kind of, did my undergrad thesis on essentially how corporations use marketing as a way to create alternate realities to control to its populations and so fascinated by corporate power for a long time. I think that power is only the initial thing. The idea that you replace this Amazonia, that has its own borders and police, to me, it’s over simplistic because if the nation state is going out of fashion and power, there’s something about it that’s inefficient, so why would you assume that the more efficient model would look just like it? I mean, if anything, corporations have [inaudible]power in many ways of life. The top 5 tech firms own A.I. at this point, they have all data, they have the top researchers, and they have all the money and have all the revenue models. In that sense, they’ve already taken control. I think that corporations should centralize the projects and many other things, like some countries still have monarchies; some have strong communities; some have a religious kind of power. All of these kind of forms are the landscape of power- I do think it’s changing but I don’t think corporations are replacing the nation state any time soon.

Noah Klein: Do you think, with the onset of blockchain and the precipice, we are facing right now now, we are going towards complete corporate technocratic, elite domination- internationally- a plutocracy- something along those lines– and blockchain coming out,what do you think is the future of the sort of nationalistic borders, or nationalism, will look like in the next 30 years, with the onset of these technologies, and the onset of these sort of different ways of thinking about life?

Maomao: Can you repeat that last part? What do I think what’s going to look like in the next 50 years?

Noah: 30 years. Actually, borders nationalism, national identity in the next 30 years with the onset of these technologies that bring the world, literally face-to-face, as well as, or we could go the other way; I was just wondering what your take on that is.

Maomao: 30 years? I don’t have a clue on what’s going to happen in 30 years.

Noah: What about 10 years, if I ask you that?

Maomao: 10 years? How many blockchain companies have their own military?

Noah: How many blockchain companies are owned by the military?

Maomao: Have their own military, none of them, right? I think that’s your answer. Borders are defined by a monopoly of violence, in certain territories, and at least that’s my belief, and that’s really not something that Westphalia said– defending our territory. In 10 years, I don’t think borders will change very much, but that doesn’t mean power is not going to shift.

Noah: Yeah, What about since the course of wars have changed, in the last few years from actual military engagement to cyber, do you think that tech companies, or blockchain, or emerging technology, have the edge there, in reshaping the future?

Maomao: Absolutely not. I think if anything, they are going to come running back constantly to the nation states protect them because who is better at cyber warfare: A blockchain project or Google or the NSA, for that matter?

Noah: That’s why I was saying Google. I don’t think Google and the NSA are necessarily one in the same, right?

Maomao: Yes, they are definitely not the same. NSA is the State and yeah, talking about Google and Facebook, who have been getting hacked left and right. I feel for them getting hacked left and right. [inaudible] So I actually think, if anything that blockchain project and corporations are going to try to come to the nation state for protection.  

Noah Klein: What do you think economically that will look like? Do you think blockchain will still retain decentralization, or do you you think with integration into the nation’s state, or the partnering of it, there will be a centralization of the currency and a peer-to-peer model will die?

Maomao: I mean decentralization– I wish I can give you a straight up answer, but decentralization is a multi-layered thing. I think there’s going to be a lot of projects that come up within regulatory frameworks. Denationalized currency, like Bitcoin, or Monero, are actually going to do quite well,   but that doesn’t mean that they are going to completely replace the dollar, or euro. Let me put it this way, I think the monopoly of USD does place a certain inefficiency on our global financial system, and when the market sees deficiency, it tries to profit from it; so I think that actually might be going away. I do think the world is going to get a bit more multi-dimensional, and it could be more centers to power.

Noah: That’s fascinating. Where does Kora want to station itself in the world?

Maomao: So, Kora’s just infrastructure, and I mean, we try to say that, that in itself is so wishy washy; everything is political. Really what Kora is trying to do, trying to say financial services they’re all basically the same. You send money back and forth; you have a certain agreement. They are all basically the same. It’s just absurd to you spend so much money in rebuilding the same system, using the same database, why not just do it once and, everyone can use the same system? It’s the centralization of software. Kora is trying to play economically; It’s simply cheaper to use Kora than anything else, and we know that’s true. Certainly that’s in the market we are deploying in. Our goal is to really just become the lowest common denominator for financial services where all things are– all our options are exhausted, always but use Kora. Whatever that means, I guess to a certain degree, it is quite subversive, basically saying here’s this huge financial system which the large companies have this huge technological advantage on which they can sit on it and let’s make those technological advantages obsolete. So they don’t have to keep the services; you service yourself. I think that’s the overall message; whether it happens or not, I hope that [it will], but we will see.

Noah: Are you hopeful for the future? For Kora?

Maomao: I’m not hopeful or unhopeful. My co-fonder is a very hopeful person. I try to keep things how they are.

Noah: And how do you see things right now?

Maomao: I think there’s a lot of opportunity for Kora and for certain Blockchain projects, especially as you mentioned as power shifts; and as new technology comes onto the scene. I hope we can take advantage of it.