International expansion and localization best practices from B2B CMOs
Don't trust AI to do your translations. Do not bundle "EMEA" into one marketing region. Hire and trust in-market professionals if you're serious about the market.
These and countless other best practices and cautionary tales were cited in last week's CMO Coffee Talk discussion centered around international growth, localization and market strategy.
If you are in the CMO Coffee Talk community, don't miss some localization templates in the #swipefile channel in Slack. Otherwise chat highlights below offer a wide variety of reading, learning and "don't do it this way" resources and advice.
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Rest of world....such a poor way to state it.
It goes down all the way to basic communication in emails that is completely different
One of the worst things companies can do is refer to their regions as “emerging markets.” This is a big thing in financial services and it drives me nuts. I lived in Asia for a long time, which helped me understand how condescending that is.
And those regions don't like to be thought of as emerging ??
Accidentally wore the perfect shirt for today. “Data is Dope” campaign that killed it in the US and then bombed with expansion. Built on colloquialisms that didn’t play outside of the US.
I used to work for xxx, HQ in China. We were the Americas team, but it was HUMBLING also to be referred to as “the foreigners.” Incredible cultural experience
One thing that International Marketers need is access to the same quality web, email and journey technologies that US Marketers have.? often they have to run things using much older platforms or they just don't get access to what the us team uses.? I have been the outreach and US contact for my colleagues from xxxxx across multiple Marketing roles. My US colleagues with some exceptions never really had them first in their thoughts - I had to remind them, and schedule meetings when I knew my friends would be in the office.
You can’t just sign up distributors/partners without caring for them and feeding them, that’s just obvious
As my grandmother used to say: “Listen to the people.”
Partners and distributors need to be treated like direct extensions of your sales team
My favorite “oops” was when I was literally brought into a company to transform them into SaaS…and then, when I packaged the product, etc., finally learned that the model wouldn’t work AT ALL in Asia…where a lot of our money came from ????♀?
Back in the days, my first email introducing myself to a new German partner I got back a capital letter (in RED) response because I made so many cultural mistakes in the email
It’s disheartening how many field marketers in international markets feel like a side car.? their roles are so critical in providing insights in those markets.
Understanding job titles within local markets and using the right ones is so important to establishing credibility.
You are supposed to drink vodka in the sauna with the Russians!
I can talk about my experience running a global team at xxx if you need someone - just trying to think of an angle? - maybe around creating alignment and scale? - or running ad ops at MSFT where I had to build a?? transcription strategies and simplifying
could be managing people in different cultures vs the external side of it?
Don't discount localization German speaking countries and most Latin America countries will not be using your website or product if it is not in their language
Sure - but you know I took people OUT of countries and made them regional in Europe - so anti boots on the ground
Nastrovia!
that's an interesting angle too
And relying on browser translation is NOT good. You need separate sites.
LOL. I lived in Moscow for two years and no-joke about the vodka!
A great book to read when dealing internationally “the culture map” written by Erin Meyer. She does an amazing job mapping out cultures on specific vectors and how they relate to each other.
As my former CTO said, “You Americans start at 0 and go to 10. We Russians start at -10 and go to 0. Don’t worry, we’re fine, just know the culture.”
It’s like meeting with my previous Irish team and beer. I’m not lightweight, but I COULD NOT come close to lasting the evening
The Culture Map is great: https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Boundaries/dp/1610392507
It's critical to know the difference between internationalization, localization, and translation.? They are not interchangeable and can make all the difference
A former Marketing colleague based in UK helps US and other companies expand to EMEA. If you need help let me know, will make the introduction.
Need field marketing and product marketing in country or at least region, depending…
This happens in the US too.? At a prior company, we never sold anything in Minneapolis until we got a local rep!
Exact same experience in Moscow in the 90s. Audience totally stoic throughout all prezos. Thought we bombed. End of day, at the dinner table, they came alive. Super nice folks, very technical. They were just listening intently.
And a French speaking Canadian salesperson does not work in France.
In Market.... always
In market - another vote
I’m a big fan of in-market but who have lived in and/or have been educated in the US, so I don’t scare the sh*t out of them
Having been the first US hire for a UK company, it was very different the cost of marketing talent, agencies, etc. from the US to London. They were shocked at the cost to invest in the US.
Being a foreigner and having worked both in Europe as well as Americas, this study I find still helpful when thinking through how to work across cultural boundaries; it’s 6 variables to pay attention to - and don’t forget what your culture is to best appreciate the differences.
Power Distance Index (high versus low).
Individualism Versus Collectivism.
Masculinity Versus Femininity.
Uncertainty Avoidance Index (high versus low).
Long- Versus Short-Term Orientation.
Indulgence Versus Restraint.
If anyone works for a Western Tech company seeking to enter China, I hired this company, ADG, to help my prior tech firm and they were AMAZING in helping, end to end. Culture, connections and execution itself. Founded by a couple, wife from China, husband from Silicon Valley. Great combination.
I'm going through the opposite of reaching into Europe -
My HQ is in UK, and I'm leading the charge into Canadian & US market expansion. Language aside, I'm finding the "personality" approach to the is quite different. and in Canada there is also a difference in EN vs. FR. So, we have quite a few variations of language and approach.
Get this... I did some work in Manila. When I walked i, I saw the?disappointment on people's faces. I heard someone saying in Filipino (I understand/speak the language), "I thought we were getting an American speaker, instead we got a local." LOL Americans come with a lot of credibility in some areas of tech. And I looked "local." ;-)
Uitstekend!
Laten we een Nederlandse groep beginnen :-)
Gezellig!
We see the difference for localization in the US where we plan outdoor advertising. Using the right terminology on billboards state by state or even city by city can make the creative not land if you’re not using the words that people use in that geography.
Same for international, even with tone and boldness from the US versus European exposure.
I'm sure they changed their minds once they heard you!
Lekker!
Yes, exactly. For example, in many French companies, the top titles of a division/department are "Director", and it's equivalent to VP in North America.
(we actually also have that here -- Director of the FBI, of the CIA, of NASA, and many more... but these are mostly governmental or academic orgs)
Better chocolate in Belgium :-)
Same for French speaking countries/regions (France, Quebec, etc.)
EMEA
good translators are hard to find! and if you find one - hang on to them!!
Aww, too kind. It was great because we got the best of both worlds — American experience brought into the Philippines by a Filipino American. Then we ate a lot of food. ??
Goed idee!!
I experienced a very similar situation.
Had a chance years ago to present to Ministry of Telecommunications in China. They made us use an interpreter who repeated everything I said sentence by sentence. Prezo took forever as a result. At the end, they asked all their questions in fluent English. You just never know.
Yup been there!
I'm from a Bulgarian family, and LMAO, in a good way!? ??
I love that idea of Culture Packs
And isn't Bulgarian food amazing?
Culture packs! Love this!
The accelerator I coach for does a big seminar for everyone on Japan (and maybe others, but I primarily work with Japan) so we don’t offend the heck out of them. Strikes me that would be good for marketing teams as well
Noooooooo…. Lots of brilliant jerks continue to be hired
A good friend who is the CFO of a large Japanese company told me that he uses a translator because it gives him extra time to form his answers even though he understands English quite well.
So much meat! ??
the OK symbol ?? is NOT ok is Brasil
great insight
I’ve had people use real-time translators into Japanese even with fluent English - they really want to understand
US-Australia is even more fun. Especially after a few drinks when they tell you what “double fisting” means to them
Our company was historically abbreviated SS internally.? You can imagine how that went over in Germany when we expanded there.? Standardized on SMAR (stock symbol) but took a while to get folks to change.? Needed company-wide comms
My Colombian colleagues were kind enough to let me know when I joined XXX that you must ask how someone is doing prior to jumping in to the topic at hand. Otherwise Colombians will find you incredibly rude.
Further to the local freedom comment: I had a Portuguese distributor who was adding moustaches to humanize the tech equipment they were selling. Classic situation of needing global brand governance.
Also lots of veggie dishes -- depends on where they took you to.
(quite possible they thought "American, must love meat...")
HOLY CRAP that’s a painful cut
716?!
Ah, been there lived that
OR - Demand Gen can hit their lead goals with some translated PPC, SEO, etc. and they hit their goals with no attention to downstream customer experience? ... pass the buck.
SS... oy vey...
absolutely! something similar happened to me. The company I used to work for thought being in many markets was more important than being strategic and had grown bloated. When I took over in 2007, I was told my first job was to right the organization. Of course, we all know what happened in 2008. However, even then our sales grew more in less markets than what we had before. thanks for sharing
That's such a brutal first assignment. Thank you for sharing your methodical way to address the situation
Incredible story and great breakdown. Thank you for sharing!
When translating marketing assets, be aware that some languages use significantly more words (and longer words) than English. You may end up with double the amount of characters.
This is a great translation and localization tool for anyone looking for one: https://www.dhirubhai.net/company/redokun/
I had a tough love convo this week with a number of regional teams on where we expect growth, and it might be tough but there is simply not enough TAM in some markets to spend marketing dollars there
absolutely - and this REALLY matters in product UX ... if the app was designed in English, you're gonna have a problem if you didn't leave enough space for those types of languages.
I'm glad my first few assignments in my new job this year are easier, such as to do an AI launch and establish data driven marketing ??.? I've leaned so much on this CMO group to set myself up for success.? Love this group ??
how much of market research do you do with an "in-house team/resources" vs. "outsourcing it"?
I was "gifted" all things translation/localization when I started at Smartsheet as we started to grow in EMEA and APAC - which I led.
Working with an outside expert was WELL worth the investment.? And https://www.nimdzi.com/ - specifically with CEO Renato....? was a relatively small investment that very much short-cut my ramp time to understand how to do this well.
There is a difference between a “General Manager” and a sales person who is in charge of an office.
Oof. Hiring must be done in-market. HR practices don’t translate.
I like having someone in field marketing who's job includes deeply understanding the local market and customers, develop strategy, and is relied upon by corp for local market insights to?influence product roadmaps,?etc. Otherwise, field marketing oftentimes gets relegated?to execution of in-market events, campaigns, localization, etc.
Saw this happen and fail... saw marketing as somewhere to send tasks vs. strategic partner
Agree. Don’t always make others adjust to your timezone schedule, make it fair
Also interviewing there are so many things that pass and you won't see them unless you know the country and the culture from education, the way they talk, how to 'read' their CV. Always get someone local review their CV and interview them
And “Eurocations!”
And to let someone go is a loooong process in certain countries.
The thing with translation is that it only focuses on communication, but as marketers we look for relevance and connection, which requires transcreation. Similar dynamic to marketing to US Hispanics or US Asian consumers. A translated piece might say something, but it doesn't connect.
And 2-year maternity leave in Germany… must plan for contingencies
Letting people go, maternity leave, hiring.. it’s all so different in Europe.
First in last out in Sweden ..
Hahaha no one has mentioned “burn out” yet. That was a fun one to get to know.
And don't think that that because you speak American English when you interview someone in the UK you judge them right or even read their CV right
Great point, and it goes beyond text. Colors have different meaning in different countries, same for symbols
France. Very, very difficult to manage people out.
France and Germany
We had a rotating schedule for our Global team meeting? to take time zone off the table (as much as possible). It would rotate between morning, afternoon, and late night in any given time zone.
Cost of redundancy in Germany, the Nordics and France require you to think twice before hiring and scaling in these countries.
领英推荐
Welcome to the company… I’ll be on vacation the next 2 months by the way… see you next quarter :-)
At one point, i had to point out to a company that NO ONE was ever fully awake for our team meetings…but with the Chennai/Seattle time difference, we couldn’t really do anything about it
France, Germany, Italy - works councils, trade unions, garden leave, long maternity leave, etc.
BEFORE HIRING OUTSIDE US, RESEARCH FIRST.
ALWAYS.
Yes workers councils big barrier to implementing new technologies
embrace the European culture - and try to bring some of that work life balance they have BACK to the US.
Garden leave is an important one here
consider augmenting your team with flexible managed services.
Just flesh out a POV on where you need to play and win before you research ;)
Pay in the local currency is a factor to think about
I’ve said this before - never give your product a name that’s two identical syllables because it’s very likely a word for poop in some language
Lack of TP with in Middle East…
Japanese and Chinese culture for business very hierarchical and ceremonial
Physically get in the market, too. I feel you better understand things and anticipate sensitivities when you've actually been in the market and talked to ppl
Ensure you have a product marketing person in each region at minimum
For us, this was a big strategic decision, primarily based on the need for additional TAM
That’s the right way - I am being a bit sarcastic because too often it’s pretty tactical and opportunistic
Agree. Hire a generalist first.? I also have done well with long term contractors since hiring / HR employment rules are so different
I have had good lucking hiring in-country local marketing generalist who can also manage a few SDRs
Also the history (speaking as a Korean American :-)
They have history together too!
Yes, that's how I've done it before and it worked out pretty well
Yeah for sure but deciding on when to provide marketing support was definitely in debate. I've heard of some companies wait until they hit $1M in sales before any marketing is allocated
The hiring process in some international markets is also much longer than in the US
As is the off-boarding period!!!
At will employment is an American thing!!!
Before or after a field marketer ;-)?
Also watch the employment laws, especially in Central Europe!
Also many companies sell via an indirect channel as they expand into new regions opposed to direct sales team so marketing support ranges from design to product support.? Generalist tend to do well and again support a long term contractor until the market is validated.
Acquisitions expanded us internationally, mostly Australia and New Zealand.
I see that sales usually hits the market first. Marketing often follows sales into the country/region in B2B software.
There so many new AI localization tools too that make it much cheaper to produce campaigns, content and videos for local markets
Look at return and ROI on a multi-year basis, like 5-year Net Present Value vs expecting return in your first or second year.
completely agree with using distributors
And what do you all prioritize in terms of localization (which specific pieces of content)?
Absolutely - in some countries you should be hiring “consultants” and not “employees” for a while since it’s incredibly difficult to let people go
11 Labs and Synthesia are also worth looking at
I recommend finding a field marketing person that has experience with sales support content creation as a start
In some cases a local PR agency also, depending on the investments in a specific country/region.
When you’re a small business, but have “world-wide applicability” for your product/service, how “bad” is it for start ups to be “blind” to different sensitivities internationally and being “American”.
Is it unreasonable to expect that “it’s good enough to just have a USA approach for messaging”
+1 oui oui
Worse in Germany I think
UK can be challenging too
Yes, been there before with French hires. Worth avoiding as long as you can in “start-up land”
And most UK marketers just want do sponsor race cars ??
France and Germany very, very different laws
One other thing: our APAC team leader was in India. Some of his success was due to personality and experience, but this did seem to work culturally - certainly better than a Japanese person working for a Korean.
Germany 2 years
You can use a company like GP (fka Globalization Partners) to be the employer of record to hire globally. They handle all laws, taxes, etc.
I have 5 out on MAT leave
There are also lots of good services (For example - Papaya Global) that take care of all the logistics of payroll/benefits/compliance etc for remote employees
The role of the Chief Market Officer plays here as a member of the ELT.
We have some sales here, and a huge opportunity, but marketing isn’t supporting us. —the age old story
In terms of leaning into new countries, it can be a good practice to simply lead with a channel sales partner there for the first year (or two or three). They know the market, the language, the companies, the buyers, etc. They can save you a lot of time but allow you to learn the market through the collaboration.
France is tricky. It is very difficult to grow in France without at least a Sales person who speaks French and who ideally IS French. It’s a high-context, relationship-driven business culture. That said, all that’s been shared here about the difficulty of letting someone go in France is true. It’s wise to hire French when the growth trajectory is ready and needs that, AND to hire very carefully….
Yes, that's a great idea. Local PR can support content and campaigns
An events marketer who also writes great sales enablement content - love it but sounds like a tough find. What sort of profile did you end up with?
And a “test & measure” culture: let’s start with one country or 1 channel partner campaign and make sure it works. Hold sales & channel accountable for delivering the incremental business from the investment
Yep. A member of my former team just started her maternity leave. She plans to be out for 2.5 years. Companies are required to hold the job for 3 years.
Inflation in Vietnam has been interesting to deal with
A CFO can potentially hedge against currency fluctuations if it’s a priority
Esp in Japan and China
Separation negotiations can drag out in Europe too
+1 - A value prop of “my product will make everyone 2x more productive (AKA you can lay off half the team) does not go well in Asia.
I worked in Germany for four years. On day one as an employees, I had 7 weeks of PTO available.
Also, be aware of laws in countries like France that prohibit emailing workers (or expecting responses to emails) after primary work hours
and if you didn’t use it, you could roll it over YOY
“Getting into new markets isn’t like changing underwear.” Can we get Coffee Talk shirts with this quote??
She asked a clarifying question: hire a product marketer in-region before or after a field marketer?
Product vs field first depends on how different the buyer persona, buying process or competitive dynamics differ between the regions
I’d take field marketing in first. They’ll align to the sales people who are already in region.
LOL … you can quote me on that!
A generalist field marketer is my first choice - someone who can multi task and understands how to get shit done.
“garden leave”
That’s my recommendation as well.
“Eurocations!”
I was always so jealous of that garden leave
Oh, I may. I just may. ??
You American you!
I'm in Germany and every conversation started with: Welcome and I'm going on vacation next week ??
I had a colleague in Germany that went on vacation for six weeks to Indonesia.
Side comment… I just returned from Croatia and Italy— their food is Much better than ours!
Yes but the customers are also out of office all of Aug
The first hire is a mini CMO/VP of Marketing
Love Kyle’s point about hiring a generalist first. Flexibility is key when opening a new market.
Can’t wait to go back and visit the food and coffee (oh…and my colleagues) in Vietnam.
What is Croatian food like? Don’t know their dishes.
I have a new appreciation for Tomatoes!
I only remember the wine from my trip there
Italian cuisine - for sure.
Does that also apply to Croatia?
Croatian food wonderful — Lots of seafood!? And they have a wine country near Rivinj and truffles center in “Stria”
“Istria”
Very bad? - North American posturing is not as well received internationally
A competitor?
Ah yes, I remember the DACH region well from my previous company (SAP consultants).
They understand English more than they let on but high preference for French and German to get listened to and respected...
We are using AI to localize collateral and content
Any AI tools you recommend that have worked the best for translation?
Any specific tools you'd recommend?
Great approach. Review by local channel partner or other native speaker with sector knowledge is needed as a final check, but it saves so much time and money.
That’s huge— what a productivity enhancement… any issues or errors with CHAT GPT4?
Enterprise ChatGPT (4)
One other caution — see what your actual brand means in the local market. One of ours in French was….very much not safe for work and we didn’t know that until after we started sending emails/content from it ??
Translation: Always have a local/native speaker review.
Industry terms and brand words can be tricky
great point
supply chain is a pretty international word, but translators always mess it up
Numbers and dates need to be checked in AI translations too
YES need local validation! We used open AI to create Portuguese version of our website - extremely efficient (fast and low cost; summer intern project)
Personal story: Large, famous international company I did marketing for in Israel in the 90's. They launched a new product. Name of product was "cool" in English, but had a pretty negative meaning in Hebrew... not what you want a product name to be.
So, it's not just translating -- product names can also be an issue!
For my book, I used ChatGPT to translate my bio into 10 different languages. I then posted those bios on all of the local Amazon market places.
Rather than International.? Use Market or Region
100%! Don’t call all non-US “International!”
HQ is another term to be careful with.
Fantastic
Thanks everyone. have a great weekend.
I can use that session on multi-generation
My first visit to this call - wonderful discussion! Thank you.
Helping Tech Founders Go To Market (Growth, Leadership, Sanity)
6 个月Thanks for sharing these valuable insights on international expansion strategies.