Insights Into Prioritising Meaningful Mentoring with Leslie Zmugg

Leslie Zmugg is not only the General Counsel and Secretary of the global advisory, restructuring and insolvency firm, Gordon Brothers.

She is a spearhead for change, an example of why mentoring is so important, and leading lawyer within her space.

In this article we take a deep dive into mentoring, including Leslie’s personal experiences, the insights gained from progressing others and how it can help accelerate change within the industry.

Taken from our latest Black Lawyers Matter Podcast episode hosted by SJP’s founder and CEO, Samuel Clague, read on for insights and a deep dive on mentoring from Leslie’s perspective…

When do you think is the best time to receive mentorship, if there is a best time?

I more fell into my career in the law, which is something that drives me to be a mentor to people who may feel like they need to be born with some sort of “calling” - this isn’t always the case.?

To become a lawyer, having a background or network is always helpful. Someone in your life who's a lawyer or who knows lawyers can put you in touch with people to start your career. However, if you don't have that, oftentimes your image of what the practice of law is like has been formed by movies and television. I like to say that nobody, as of yet, has made a TV series about corporate in-house lawyers. It would probably would just be filming people at their desks and on the phone a lot of the time!

So it's really important to understand what your life will be like when you practice law. It's not always attractive, it's not always sexy, it's not always exciting. There's a lot of administrative work that you have to do. Indeed, if you're in a law firm, you're billing your time so you have to keep recording your time. You need to be patient with yourself.?

When you emerge with your degree and you start practising, I think you very quickly realise that there's a lot more to it than just the academic part of the learning. There's understanding how you move in the workplace, how you interact with your clients, how you advise people who are not sitting and reading a 15-page memo - nobody has time for that any more.?

There are all these nuances that are important. So, back to your question, about when is good to have a mentor, I would say at any stage. It's really important, including the stage where I am now.?

Why is it important to have mentoring at any stage in your career?

You know, many people talk about having your own board of directors and advisors that you can turn to. Even now, I have friends who are executives, both within the law and outside, and senior people in the law as well, and I think it's really important to bounce ideas off of them. I'm a member of a network called women's GC network. It's solely online - occasionally there are meetups, but there are about 1000 female general counsels who are part of this organisation. We can ask each other questions, and it's rapid, it's empowering us to bounce ideas off of each other. The scope is wide and varied, and I find it incredibly useful. I feel very strongly that you never get to a point where you know everything. You always have to learn, you have to seek out advice, and learn from that advice.?

Another experience of mentoring earlier within my career stemmed from how I kind of fell into the bankruptcy group in the first firm where I was, and then I moved to being an associate in the bankruptcy group of another firm. It was definitely scary when I made that second move. I questioned myself a lot. I questioned whether I understood what was going on, whether I knew enough, and whether I was good enough, The inner critic in my head was screaming really loudly at the time. A great mentor at that stage was my older brother, as he had been a bankruptcy lawyer. I remember having some hushed telephone conversations with him where I let him know the crisis of confidence that I was having. He was extremely helpful because he knew me, and reminded me about all of the achievements and qualities I had that he thought made it clear I would be successful.

It is important to find a balance of professional mentors and personal mentors, who you can open up to and be very vulnerable with. I think you need to surround yourself with people with whom you can show your vulnerability to and be confident that they will help you. They might not always tell you what you want to hear, but they will be an important sounding board.

Do you think that people who aren't Black, but are in decision-making positions can make change around Black representation within law quicker than the Black people who aren't necessarily in the highest-ranking positions?

That's a good question. I'd like my answer would be yes. I've had some very interesting conversations about this over the years at various leadership levels. I can remember 10 years ago having one with someone who said “why don't we just let time do it? I also believe in diversity, and it will work itself out over time. Why do we need to force the issue?”. I think it's fair to say that if you let that happen, the level of change that we need might not be seen in our lifetime. So it is important to accelerate it. I think the biggest allies in that can be the people who want to see diversity, for diversity's sake.

I feel that I am a person who does not like to be pigeonholed, never have been. For me, I like to sort of run the gamut in terms of who I'm acquainted with, and friends with - it's no different in the workplace.?

I feel like a workplace where people are all white, and all-male is not very attractive to me. Likewise, a workplace that is all women who look like me - whilst it could be interesting and I've never worked in one of those - I wouldn't want either. I like to learn from other people, I like to see a workplace that has people from a bunch of different backgrounds who are united by something in common. It could be our purpose or our work ethic. We could be similar in a lot of ways, but we have to be different, as well. I think to find the people who find that intrinsically valuable, important and attractive, I think that's really where a lot of change can happen.?

Mentoring is critical, it's absolutely critical to give people a hand up, but also a chance to fit in. I hate to say it that way, but there are people who need to get the skills and the framework to move around in the professional space in a way that maybe isn't not innate to them. For example, shaking hands, how to meet people, how to sit at the conference table, or even how to interject in a way that is not too aggressive or too quiet.

I think it's the really the small ways that we can help people starting from when they're at university, and then all the way through their career because it doesn't end it doesn't end for anyone. I think it's really important to focus on not just checking the box and making sure that we have hired people or we have admitted people of colour to law school - but it's about making sure that they stay and have the tools to be successful throughout their careers.

Enjoyed this article? Listen to the full episode of the Black Lawyers Matter Podcast with Leslie Zmugg here.