How to reduce risk and improve impact with your next agency/consultant relationship

Outside help - whether it's short-term or ongoing - is a critical option for most marketing leaders. It's also fraught with risk, stress and more frustration than it should.

Last week's CMO Coffee Talk featured a wide-ranging discussion about minimizing risk and improving ROI when hiring agencies, contractors and other consultants.

Special thanks to Daniel Weiner for sharing his best practices, and to Jessica Garrett, MBA , Nicole Wojno Smith and numerous CMO Coffee Talk community members who shared their best practices and cautionary tales as well. Some of their chat highlights are included below.

If you are in the CMO Coffee Talk community, don't miss a Vendor Selection Rubric and In-House vs Agency pros/cons grid in the #swipefile channel in Slack.

And if you are a B2B CMO or head of marketing (must be VP or above) and want to join a community of 3,400+ of your peers, please let me know or click here to learn more and join in on the fun.

I’ve found that a big piece of it is the people from the agency that will be assigned to my project.

Yes, make sure to have the dedicated team established before signing. I’ve seen so many switcharoos to junior peeps after the first 3-6 weeks.

The actual team becomes an extension of your team

Why did you fire all of the existing shops on day 1?

It wasn’t on Day 1. It was month 2 and they had no paid search experts, results were terrible. A generalist agency doing things outside their scope

Agree. If they don’t show up strong in the sales process, how bad will they be once you’ve signed them on?!

Hiring agency for small jobs first, gives you a glimpse into how they work, their work product.

Same standard which is high.

Agencies have less rope

But sometimes it is not fair

As a leader, you have to give the agency the information about your business. They don't know the business like you do!

Agency sells a promise!

Often the scapegoat..

Depends on the level of agency (how much are you spending?) They’re supposed to be the experts with opinions and a strategic viewpoint.

The agency never loves your business as much as you do. We do hold them to a higher standard, because we’re often paying them more than an employee would cost for that role.

Are agencies and consultancies the same thing?

Agreed we pay them way more than most employees

But let them push you too— a good agency will push you to make you better, as well… pick the right one then let them do their thing and treat them like employees and make them part of things

good point. Agencies may be martech partners, where their reps are the AEs.

I feel SaaS providers have been taking over the roles of agencies for at least the last decade.

Just at cmo coffee talk always 100%… :=)

Keys to agency mgmt I have found successful:

- Full disclosure on data and business results - make them a true partner

What I hate when while interviewing the agency, they keep saying how they want to be an “extension” of your internal marketing team. What I’m hearing is - “I want to squeeze as much cash out of you as possible.” It’s like I’m scrolling through Bumble, and they are asking for a marriage. First, let’s go out on a date, see how we are in real life, see if we want to go on a next date, and if those dates work out, that’s going to be a long relationship.

https://www.demandrevenue.com/guiding-principles/

I also think a lot of times the? marketing leader is overwhelmed and being pulled in so many directions and they don’t give the agency the time & resources they need to help them be successful. They made offload the agency ownership to more junior marketers. And that also doesn’t set the agency up for success

Any tips when you're looking to transition from freelancers/agencies to another, however, want to avoid a gap in work coverage?

Love this

This is great! Providing real value to the conversation!

Love this

Add who recommended/source

I would be straight forward. I usually keep the old one, while onboarding a new one.

Can’t get to the swipe files fast enough to download this!!

I'd be curious if you see more success with companies that have a dedicated internal HC for each agency, vs a single head of managing multiple firms? Obviously budget is a big factor on multiple levels there, but managing an agency can also be a lot of work all on its own.

Also, I have recently had some weird experiences over the last few years with agencies who seem to have affiliate relationships with martech and feeling very pushed into changing technologies or approaches that seem to fit their partners.? Its hard to know if its about their efficiency and comfort or if its their financial interest.? Any thoughts on this?

Be careful when including a CEO in the agency selection process — they can be very likely to fall in love with the deck or the person pitching.

This is gold! Thanks for sharing!

Spreadsheets for the win today

Wow - this is through.

For those with agencies and/or martech providers, are you on 1) retainer, 2) project-by-project, or a 3) mix?

Love this!

Super cool!

Cool... any chance of hallucination and/or bias in it?

It also depends on your team maturity in ability to manage agencies .? An agency is as good as the brief and the client direction

Great topic! Can we spend some time talking about getting agencies back on track when projects aren’t going as expected

It's all about delivering a good night of sleep = confidence and trust.

Vaguely like she inhaled helium

One activity that’s worked well is have an every 3-4 week check in with the head of agency (not the account lead).? Rather than wait for QBRs or a standard report I am keeping the strategic / senior leaders accountable by having this regular check ins. We talk people, performance, changes, my team, etc.

great tip

Give 6 cos to start so they can learn and become you...

Her point above is so important. Being a good client is just as important as choosing the right agency

Agree 100%!

When interviewing an agency, I always ask - what will make us a great client? I want as many specifics as possible.

Often it's greener because it's fertilized with bullshit

If you have fired a couple of agencies in a year - take a look in the mirror.? It might be you.

It depends on how bad things have gone.

Myers Briggs for agencies… :-)

Important to realize their incentives aren’t always your incentives.

Please don’t clump marketing agencies with lawyers.? I don’t want the 15 minute docket charges.

2-way off-ramp

100% on the offramp clause. They often want to use their contract. Make sure you read it carefully. I always insist on (1) termination for cause, (2) general offramp

Phew - he never fired me as a client.? I guess I’m lucky!!

No one wants to work with assholes

Anyone else have experience with a CEO bringing in an agency that they've essentially already chosen because another CEO has recommended them?

But it’s okay if once a year they pitch you on new ideas

One way to get around it is by defining when the upsell and cross sell can happen... kind of like a free agency signing period. The best ones will be there when you need them and are trusted partners.

It’s all about how it’s approached.

And earned trust

great point on agency size

Yes - and the reality is that if you make this mistake you’ll get the B team

Yes. It was a financial disaster. They were fine, but charged silly money…I had to make a switch. It as tough.

You also need to know when to divest your agency so you can mitigate the risk if there is a catastrophic event (e.g. cyber attack).

% of media spend kills me

Who likes to be sold to?

I want collaboration with an agency as a marketing leader. I don't want to be pitched once a year....

I’m afraid to say yes, because all the pitchers will be coming my way.

A big issue with some agencies is inconsistency. Their staff turn-over can be tricky. That means that the experience might have been great once, and then, once we engage with them again, it can be horrible.

Great question. No hallucination but it could be biased. I reviewed thoroughly and edited, but I may be biased too… hard to say.

Thoughts on consultants / agencies pitching you when you’re promoting a job for a full time person to cover the role?

I don’t love it :/ I think it comes off a bit thirsty even though, sometimes, it’s not a terrible option.

It’s worked for me once, but then burned me and distracted me once too. Going forward I don’t think I’ll do it because if I’ve decided to do it internally, I should stick with my decision

Can we talk about the difference between Agency and BPO?? There are significant cost differences.? Where is the line that one gets picked over the other.

I think it’s volume/scale and repeatability of tasks

Thanks as always!

every Marketing platform seems to be getting AI features seems to be time for staff to get a refresh on platform training across the board!

everyday i just ask myself if I’m falling behind at faster or slower rate.

you just jinxed us all on budget...

You and everyone else who is paying attention!

I find that creative agency (graphic design, web design) to be the hardest to select just because it is hard to know if their line will connect with your team

I’m free but not cheap ??.

It’s a good thing I set up all the agencies at my last gig to fill gaps. They’re the only ones doing anything after I got liberated from the toxic workplace ??

gotta love the "make it viral" direction from bosses

OMG. Me too.

i did a little article a bit ago with ideas on how to run Marketing as a 1 person team. I have a Medium blog that I keep up to date.? there are some things that you need to do as 1 or 2 people to keep the lights on and then you branch out from there.? and then you figure out where you need help!

or the: let's do this! <sharing a competitor's social mktg>

Tell the CEO to save a baby from a burning building. That will go viral and get lots of press right away

One benefit of developing an agency relationship is the fresh perspective you can get vs. tunnel vision of being too close to the internal situation.? The key is their ability to truly understand your market, your customers and being accountable for measurable results.

I call it steak vs. sizzle

Advertising you pay for. P.R. you pray for.

I love being a solo marketer. I'm never bored!

When I was MUCH younger and working in an agency, I was the “switch” in the bait and switch.? So awkward.? I sat in a boardroom in a major fast food company, and got YELLED at for 3 hours about the bait and switch.

Every agency I’ve talked is super dismissive of AI

?? we’ve had a content partner using AI for some of the writing that is not coming out well. I’ll not opposed to it but it should be discussed up front.

AI is the future, it's just a matter of how you want to integrate the technologies. It's not all the same, and with understanding it's not scary.

It's going to be part of every Marketing automation platform in the near future. It's in HubSpot already and is on the roadmap or present in most of the other big and medium sized platforms

It is about protecting their content and cost structure.

When vetting a new agency, I always try to understand their goals for growth. Agencies with aggressive growth goals probably means churn; the group you hire today might be completely different in 6-8 months.

I get worried when I hear of CMOs or agencies who are dismissive of AI.

as long as the quality is there

Weird. I've not experienced this, but then I'm using agencies that I already know who were always ahead of the game on tech anyway. Like earlier adopters of other tech in marketing previously.

I don’t care how they do it as long as it’s done responsibly and ethically. I care about paying for outcomes and value.

I want my agency to use AI, they need to stay up with the times

I fired an SEO agency because of how dismissive they were of AI and they misinformed us about how Google looks at AI created content

We require plagerism checkers around AI for writing content.

I WANT my agency to use AI intentionally so that there is more time spent with analysis and thinking and getting product done faster.

Totally! recommendations are so much better, but obviously not enough

In my ideal world, I want an agency using AI but I wan them using it in alignment with my use policies (safe data practices, etc) AND the human in the loop with attention to final output quality

I think there’s a new model around prompt creation rather than content creation. I see that being valuable long-term. My team is using custom prompts to create content and campaign messaging.

WPP and Publicis are both investing over $300M in AI. If you deep dive with either of them they are using AI in ways that she would appreciate ??

I expect some cost savings - if they are gaining 100%+ efficiency then prices need to come down, but it's fair for them to keep at least half of that gain.

Completely agree.? Word of mouth / referrals are more informative.? Still requires vetting but hearing specifics about where they were successful before is very helpful

Also, using a Grammarly to check for accidental AI plagiarism.

from recent experience... never post on li that you're looking for a designer

Any experience in the group of working with "agency selection" consultants to help manage a search?? Did you find it valuable/effective?

I rely first on WOM from trusted sources, such as groups like this and Togetherdigital.com - people who have reputation in the game with regard to their recommendations.

my DMs are still lighting up

I thought it was a hack to grow your following?

AI/content -if the quality of the writing is there, its valuable, educational then great, but it easy to tell if its a bland, vanilla driven AI piece of content…

Also when it comes to any images they 100% have to be on board with company policy and there's absolutely no ifs/ands/buts about it because that can open legal risk

Making sure the agency can do the use case you need specifically is key. My company hired a web flow agency which was apparently “good” and recommended but they were a disaster because they were not familiar with doing a site with our complexity.

I'm up against another agency that wants to charge 3X what they should, by making the work sound bigger/harder than it should be.? That shit drives me nuts.

Of course, it was the hiring manager’s fault for not vetting them for that (but to be fair, she knew nothing about web dev which is another issue — it’s hard to hire an agency if you don’t know what they need to be doing)

I love agencies that? know what they’re good at/not good at and recommend other agencies. No agency is the best in everything. I wish the agencies would be more acknowledging of that and not compete against each other. It’s all about complementary super powers and working together

One of the best agencies I worked with - there success was based on their agile process…didn’t realize how important that was to the success

Had the same experience with an agency that did dev (and were buds with her hubby). The CEO hired them despite them not knowing Hubspot dev, they wasted so much $$ and time

Same here - I’ve used his services to make the process more efficient by shortlisting first, that way you have a curated list to do the final back channeling on. He also gathers context on projects so had contextual recommendations based on what I was looking for.

The worst is the agency that claims to be able to do everything and do it all well

Not sure there truly are competent "full-service agencies" anymore

Yes, they are ALL known for 1 thing more than the other

A leading indicator in the upfront discussions is what kind of questions the agency asks.? Are they deeply curious and do they demonstrate an aptitude of applying continuous learning.

Full service is a myth

Agencies are an extension of your team, so yes, it is about checking if we can work together and how we engage & communicate. The how matters. The what become the proofpoints.

It’s the Justice League -agencies, in-house contractors, team— complementary superpowers working together towards the same mission

As a former agency person, I have a high bar for agencies. I’ll only hire an agency to “buy” intellectual property that I don’t currently have on my team. Otherwise the cycle times are too slow and too expensive vs FTEs

No-one wants to work with assholes

Yes, 100%. My filter is - are they asking about our business, our industry and our customer? Do they show a commercial sense? Or, are they just asking about marketing tactics?

very important for agency to be respectful of the Marketing department at their clients and respect what they are working on day to day.? have had some that attempted to push the coordinator staff around, not fun.

Oof. I’ve been that exec that parachutes back in at the end ????♀?

My philosophy has always been that you have to put as much energy into the agency as you want a positive result.

Always need to make sure you have a clause in contract to evaluate in 3months/6 months to terminate agreement so aren’t locked in to a relationship that just doesn’t work

Let’s ask the agency: if you had unlimited opportunities, what types of opportunities would you choose because you’re passionate about that work and you’re best in the world in doing that work and can add the most value. That’s a decent litmus test of their core competency

I wish someone would create a course for junior marketers on how to manage an agency and a project

A good agency will pitch in a way that sounds bass-ackwards, talking about…

1) Your business first.

2) Then their work for clients (ideally like you).

3) Themselves last.

And sometime with all of these things as part of the process you select wrong...

Yes, and this is a great rubric…which agencies can play and work collaboratively in the same “sandbox” with other firms, freelancers, and in-house.

Agile marketing…

In my experience right now, many agencies, esp medium agencies are desperate for SOWs and are taking any clients they can get regardless if the client is a good fit or if they can deliver.

Can I just rant about some agencies which are not actually doing the work IN THIS ECONOMY?!

in my agency days, it was called that “sell and repent.” It was often part of the new biz playbook

Oof I am living that right now

Makes me think I should get back to offering agency-like services

I’m seeing it right now and it leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouths.

So true. I've been at a new company for 4 months and have fired 4 companies. Complete crap, and no one knew.

Managing an agency is such a huge part of hiring an agency and where many companies fail

I had a half day off-site with all my agencies at a company and that worked well because they built relationships and they got to know each other’s superpowers, and they understood the bigger mission. Got them out of the mode of competing against each other and being so tactical. Thank god! It was like babysitting children before LOL

The communication channel (or lack thereof) is so critical to agency relationships

Question: what if the CEO doesn’t like the design and cant articulate why. As the result, they don’t want to pay the agency. What is the middle man to do?

The problem is when a (bad a,d terrible) agency is strongly recommended by the CEO and you have to make it work...

Whatever you do, it does not work and you dread the conversation with the CEO about why you have to pull the plug

So much of agency experience depends on the Account Manager. I find many of them have never had marketing experience. They are good with people, not good with marketing.

I’ve had a few agencies that didn’t have a PM/AM and it was a shitshow

Good agencies also challenge us proactively to help us grow…

And depending on the scope of engagement, are you truly getting their A team or their B or C team?

Need to know which team you are getting UP Front… and ensure agency isn’t too big for you

Or how big the contract is. I'm pretty sure I was previously given a C squad because we wanted to start on a small budget and incrementally go up.

I want to double down on that point: many times people on the company-side don’t know what kinds of information help an agency, particularly a creative agency, be successful. I’ve worked on both sides, and find that being able to funnel informations both ways and set expectations is a huge value add. It’s not just information but also personalities, politics, people dynamics , what’s coming next that might not be reflected in a document. All of this helps with success of the engagement

Agreed but vital to watch the allocation of spend/retainer dedicated to Account Svcs; easier area to bloat hours and take from productive outputs. I look to keep that in the 10-12% range. North of that, and I start to get concerned...had one agency proposal that when I examined it broke down to 22%! Ouch.

Often the sizzle is delivered in presentations by A team, then a bait and switch.

This is why I like to hire a new agency for a 6 month contract to try them out and make sure it’s a fit once we get into the work

I expect the best agencies to partner with me on how to make my project successful. Some of that includes challenging my assumptions based on their experience working with hundreds of clients

So often the account manager is junior (unless you have the ability to demand the best staff)

That came up this morning too— initially for 6 months first….. less doesn’t make sense because they need to learn/become you...

And I always include termination clauses - (1) for performance/cause, (2) one for any reason. With reasonable out timelines of course to be fair to both

EXACTLY. I want my agencies to challenge our thinking

I think it’s also the role of the marketing leader to teach junior marketers how to hold agencies accountable. It’s something I learned early in my career and has been so helpful.

That's where the CEO needs to be in periodically. I try to have a steering committee for big corporate redesign projects... they aren't part of the day to day but they are part of the big decisions. Sometimes it's a token effort but it makes them feel like they were part of the process and had buy in. I got burned on that the first project I did that I hadn't created a steering committee. Like in sales... it's making sure to bring along the blocker in the process so that there are no surprises at the end.

Also many agencies have contractors, esp lately. I’m that world right now and it’s interesting.

Heck, I could’ve used a course on that as CMO. Organization isn’t my strong suit, and so I never tried to push it on an agency

Yes, good agencies should chllange ypur thinking but with a WHY.

It’s also ok to break up with an agency - and knowing when it’s time to do that

his team is great at using a bit of silence to say, “You’re being a dumbass” without actually saying it

I have heard that deafening silence once or twice!

Yes I love boutique or specialized agencies vs full stack agencies

That's my preference, too. I love that they can push back and have the confidence to do so.

I like functional agencies for certain things - but it does require me to have really tight ICP, personas, market insights, messaging, etc

Full service also scares me because that's so many eggs in one basket...

Also those vertical agencies can ramp up and deliver much much faster than others.

I'm over here laughing so much at the full service agencies suddenly claiming to be marketing AI expert agencies too, and the things they say about AI are shockingly uninformed

I'm sure ChatGPT helped them write their marketing copy.

I was at a full service agency. Once we established a large $1M+ relationship, it is natural to try to swap out the “A team” resources for the “B team” resources to create efficiencies and boost profit. Not to mention they want their “A team” to go out and win more business.

It happens ALL THE TIME.

Oh yeah, half of them have their copy start with "in the rapidly evolving AI landscape, you need an agency that knows how to use AI" ??

BTW shit show is not French.

Oh man now there are AI and ChatGPT agencies too? Please punch me!!

What’s going on with this chat, it’s cracking me up.

Everyone who can is claiming to be an AI expert. A colleague at my former firm told me they’re shifting their messaging to “capitalize on the AI trend.” It’s not a core competency of theirs but they wanted to get on the train out of perceived appeal. Sadly, customers will be disappointed.

100% - this is always a worry, and something I specifically address during in the vetting process

I think there can be a lot of good agencies technically and analytically. But I see "great creative" as the great divide. Starting out my career at XX, I have a very high bar...and it seems like agencies now look at creative as an afterthought or like they just seek "good enough". AI is only making the sea of mediocre sameness worse.

I know a few really good AI agencies, but they're building out AI automations and sophisticated AI systems/projects

Also it's ALL they do

One of our clients has 147 agencies for global marketing!!!

This morning it was mentioned to have an out in case it doesn’t work eventually— but I recommend this must be Two-way

147??! That sounds like hell

I agree. It feels especially true in B2B.

I've seen people who have told me they've never used anything other than free chatGPT position themselves as AI Experts - hahahahahaha

Oof

Yikes.

All agencies get complacent eventually. Start them on fire occasionally.

More than ever, we forget neurologically, every decision is made in the emotive side of the brain

That sounds like a big target on the CMO’s back with a bright sign that says “CFO: inspect us!”

Why not build this into the contract? having a handover....

Exactly. And scary! Sadly, it’s the customer who suffers.

The upside is it sounds like they don’t let Procurement decide on their agencies?!

Don’t forget that agencies talk about clients too!

Our brand reputations always proceed us… think long-term and do the right thing, professionally...

Prove it!

Agencies need to do the same

I’d love to hear perspectives on how to avoid being transitioned from the agency “A Team” to the “B Team” once they’ve been onboarded. How do you navigate/prevent this?

just tell them about the “B team” experiences in the sale process.

You right it into your contract

Another frustration is an agency's unwillingness to actually understand your business at a deep enough level to add real value.

What if they give you the C- team?

Sell team must be the sold team. Demand it or walk

The pitch vs old bait and switch ... ugh

Those are the worst and can be bucketed into “vendors” rather than agency partners.

After working with an agency for too long, they get comfortable (lazy).

We’re moving some ABM media work in-house and our agency has been amazing with the transition. So professional. So helpful. Which is smart - I may want / need to work with them in the future and I’ll certainly recommend them.

one thing that we get asked a lot before signing is to meet the Account Team (or at least lead) beforehand. Lots of clients ask for this. One client recently even asked that it be built in that if the person changes (for whatever reason), they be a part of the process....which may delay the project, but interesting.

“I pity the fool!”

I have one quick idea to add. When my team, especially junior team members, are involved in agency selection, I ask them to reflect on their experience as buyers. It stimulates some ah-ha moments in their own work marketing to buyers.

Agree!, I respect agencies that say I’m full of crap and that it will never work because it doesn’t align with the strategy or there isn’t a strategy.

YES, meeting the people you’re working with. I’ve had too many experiences where the founder/owner “sells” themselves and their A team and we then never see those folks. I only made that mistake once.

Cautionary tale to also understand the relationship the agency has with the CEO/founder. I ask those questions now during interviews after I got burned by a CEO for firing his BFF’s agency.

I definitely interview the team before signing.

Also, when I had good team of agencies I've introduced them to each other and had a sync call with all my agencies to facilitate some collaboration which worked really nicely

Regarding the A team. If you are wowed by big agencies because of their logos but can only afford their “minimum” retainer, you should expect the B or C team. You want to be at agency where most clients pay roughly the same amount so that all clients get A-team involvement

Where these relationships have gone sideways for me, we have been part of the problem….eg/ we just weren’t ready with GTM to set them up for success.

Absolutely - having an offsite for my Marketing team next week, including my PR, paid digital, and SEO agency resources are attending and aligning. We started this last year and the difference was night and day in terms of output and effectiveness afterwards

'If you don't get the A team, then you are with the wrong agency'....In my experience you always get the A team for the first month then all of sudden they get into a 'high' priority project....Basically the agency is firing you as a client!

My challenge has typically been asking all the right questions and getting the A-team out of the gate…doing exceptional work together….then over the course of the relationship (when everything is gelling well!) people get promoted out and at some point we look around and we’ve been stuck with the B team. ??

Exactly - this has been more my experience - and you’re in a position to either have a gap in progress, or try to determine which team you’re left with

This was my first CMO talk - loved it! Thank you for all the great discussion!

Excellent conversation.? Thank you!