How Identifying A Market Gap Led To Explosive Growth

Welcome to the Rialto Marketing Podcast. Today's episode is a Revenue Acceleration Series interview, where we talk to seven-figure professional service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience.

Join?Tim Fitzpatrick?and?Sandesh Sukumaran?for this week’s episode of The Rialto Marketing Podcast!

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How Identifying A Market Gap Led To Explosive Growth

Tim Fitzpatrick: Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a revenue acceleration series interview where we talk to seven figure B2B professional service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience. I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe you must remove your revenue roadblocks if you want to accelerate revenue growth. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. Super excited to have with me today Sandesh Sukumaran from Outcome Logix. Sandesh, welcome and thank you so much for taking the time.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Tim, thank you for having me on your podcast and giving me the opportunity to talk about our story. Thank you.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. You've got a ton of experience, wealth of knowledge, I think, to share here. So I can't wait to dig into it. Before we do that, I want to ask you some rapid fire questions. Help us get to know you a little bit, but also just help you add value right off the bat here. You ready to rock?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Yes. Let's go.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So very quickly, what do you do? How long have you been doing it?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Real quick, Tim, we are a technology services company. I call it a technology enabled staffing organization. Why I call it a technology enabled staffing organization is because we built our own platform which enables our candidates and hiring managers to upstream themselves and it makes them easy to hire candidates faster, especially for the hiring managers. We are a technology enabled staffing company.

Tim Fitzpatrick: What's the most important lesson that you've learned in running your business?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Most important lesson that I have learned is continually improve and innovate. Your customers, you would think that you're doing everything right till your customers point out or your candidates point out that there is something that is missing. You got to have an open mind and keep a mindset that you have to improve and innovate every single day. It is almost like wearing under garment. If you keep it long enough, it's going to stink. So you got to continuously change and innovate.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I love that. That's an analogy that will stick with me. And you know what? No matter where we are, even the people that we look at are like, Gosh, man, they've just got everything dialed in. No, none of us have it all figured out, no matter where you are. I love that. Last thing I want to ask you before we start digging into this is, we all know growing, running a business is hard. Is there any type of mantra or saying that you tell yourself or you share with your team to help push through those roadblocks, those hurdles when you come up against them?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Yeah. You got to look at problems as challenges and tackle it that way. One other thing that I always tell people is look at how you're going to come out of the circle of comfort level that you are in. So if you are, say, in a particular position, look at where else can you grow or go? If you have that mindset, you're going to bring people in, you're going to mentor. And by doing that, you're growing in the organization. That's what I tell everyone. And eventually, a lesson for myself is how do I make this organization to a point where even I make an exit? If I don't have that mindset, none of my staff will ever grow. So that's what I want to bring in the next 6 to 8 months or in a year, I want to bring in a CEO that can run a staffing organization for me. So that's what I always tell my staff.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I love that mindset shift of thinking as problems as challenges, because challenges, they do make us better. If your belief of problems is that way, I think it makes it not necessarily easier, but it keeps you motivated to push through. So I love that.?

Navigating the Process of Starting a New Business

Tim Fitzpatrick: So with Outcome Logix, you started Outcome Logix after you exited another company. Can you tell me more about just that process of deciding what's next? Because certainly there are a lot of people that have exited companies. There are a lot that haven't. And I think a lot of people who have not look at it and go, Gosh, well, that must just be so amazing and so great. What people don't realize is there are a lot of people that exit companies that struggle after that because so much of their identity was tied to that baby, that company that they grew for so long. And now it's like, what's next? So can you share what that process was like for you?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Absolutely, Tim. The genesis of Outcome Logix started even before I started with my previous venture. I come from a very deep technical recruiting background. I was a hands on recruiter for many years. So one of the challenges that I saw started even before I started my previous venture. So what I realized is entry level technical recruiting or HR people are not technical by nature. So that was a big problem statement. So that persisted through my previous venture as well. So when I decided to start this, I knew there was a problem statement facing all of us right in the face, but no one is willing to take that and tackle it head on. So when I started this venture, I knew I had to solve a problem, and that problem, we can get into it slightly later. Or if you want me to answer that, I can probably tell you what that problem is. How did we solve that? And that was the genesis of us starting Outcome Logix, Tim.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Got it. So you identified a gap that was occurring in the market, and you said, Hey, I'm going to create a business to solve this.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Absolutely. That was brewing in my mind from almost like this started in 2009 when I was in my first job. I had an epiphany moment where I said, I know where the problem is. How can this be solved? That led me into going into the next venture. We built a traditional services company, but along the line, I knew that I had to build a platform which will lead me into the next set of my challenges or solve those challenges.

Tim Fitzpatrick: That being in the back of your mind, even prior to exiting, it sounds like that really helped you transition from one to the next quicker than it might be for some people.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Absolutely. Sometimes, Tim, when I sit and reflect on myself, what I see a similarity is, I don't know if this is true, but I've heard this, it is almost my journey is like, they say, bamboo, before it shoots off, it stays in the ground for seven years. It holds on. It builds itself to a point where it's ready to go. And I see that being how we are. And that's reflective of how our numbers are from a revenue perspective in the second year itself. So we put a lot of effort in the base or the core foundation by building a product first and then using the product to provide services to our customers. So that's why, even when I said before, we are a technology enabled services company, which means we have our own platform and technology that helps our customers hire faster.

The Secrets Behind Outcome Logix's Success

Tim Fitzpatrick: I think this is a great segue into my next question because your Outcome Logix is a couple of years old at this point. Last year you grew 700 ish %. You've got 18 employees already. That's pretty rapid growth as far as most people are considered. I think the fact that you identified a big gap in the market is one of the huge drivers in that. But what else do you think has helped you grow so quickly? Any secrets you want to share with us, Sandesh?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Absolutely. I think one is the platform that we have. Second is the team that we have. They are rock solid. They are dedicated to making sure we provide a quality service to our customer. You need to have strong, strong family support that backs you up because the journey for such a venture is not easy. You got to have people who are right behind you and giving you that moral support as well. So I think those three factors have really helped us grow. If you're okay, I would take one more minute to identify what is the real driver behind it, in addition to the ones that I said. So what we have done is we've identified a problem. So what that problem is, is when a hiring team or hiring managers, especially when they're looking for technology related hires, they have to go through three primary ways how you can identify or get to the talent. One is you go to your internal HR organization or talent acquisition organization and tell them you need to fill a full time role. Or you go to agencies or staffing companies or services companies and you give them their acquisition. Third is you're frustrated by both of them. You're basically saying, I want to recruit from my own network. I know my people, I know who I want to hire. So the first two, if you look at it, the stakeholders, the entry level stakeholders generally are not technical. No one expects them to be technical, to be fair to them. So most often those stakeholders look at your acquisition more from a job title perspective or keyword perspective. So that is where most of the misalignment happens. That's where when you're looking for competencies in certain areas, the misalignment will happen because they don't... Entry level recruiters or HR people will not know what is C++ or Java or Hibernate or Microservices. That is where we shine. We built a platform and a product. What this is is basically it's an application tracking system. It has video interviewing capabilities built into it. But the magic really happens when we bring industry experts to do the first level. So what it does is it augments and it bridges the gap that the entry level recruiters might not have, or HR people might not have. This saves both the candidates as well as the hiring manager a lot of time because now instead of looking at thousands of resumes, you're looking at the top five candidates that an industry expert has given the thumbs up for. That has been our biggest reason why we are successful.

Tim Fitzpatrick: It's so interesting, Sandesh, because you've identified this problem in the IT space. This could be applied to so many different industries. This happens in marketing all the time. You have business owners that marketing is not their thing, but they're trying to hire inhouse people, or they're trying to hire an agency. It's really difficult to properly qualify people when you don't have a firm understanding of what those people should be doing. You may know what the skill sets are, but they're called, but you don't know below the surface what actually is that skill set. And that makes it really hard to properly interview and qualify people. So you've identified that on the IT space, and you have this platform that helps people work through that process efficiently and eliminate this gap. So I love that. The other thing I want to ask you, you touched on your team. And this is a common problem that's coming up with a lot of businesses is just having a hard time finding talent. Within two years, you've hired a fair amount of people. Are you finding those people US based? Overseas? Is it a combination of both? What does that look like?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Good question, Tim. So all the positions that we fill currently is US based. And these are all enterprise level organizations that are looking for the best talent out there. Because if you look at the nature of positions that we fill, these are positions where the companies are looking to build platforms or solutions in the next three months, six months. There is literally no time for someone to learn on the job. They are looking for the top, I want to even say, top 5 % of the talent pool which is out there. So I wish I could share my screen with you, but without sharing, I can tell you is we have a funnel where we can see where these sources are coming from. We literally get thousands of resumes. So it's very imperative that we get the candidate competency right for the hiring managers because interviewing is not their job. So their job is to make sure they find the best talent, and that's why they're coming to us. So we do bulk of that work. And then instead of showing them a resume, we show them how and who these candidates are, who really screen them. And the hiring managers or team can see that before they even get into the second round of interviews. In some cases, we've also seen that they can literally even not interview and say, Okay, I want that guy because I know he knows what he's doing.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So for Outcome Logix, though, for your inhouse team, are they all US based?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Some of them are. Most of them, I think, are also offshore.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. Okay. Because I think it seems to me like there's this default of, Oh, my gosh, it's so hard for me to find people and hire people. But I think people have too narrow of a scope. It's like, I have to have this specific person. They have to be US based. When in reality, they don't always have to be US based. And frankly, for the positions you guys are hiring for, they do need to have very specific skill sets, obviously. But there are times for our inhouse teams, gosh, sometimes we make the threshold so freaking high that the pool is so fricking small, would we actually be better off changing our criteria a little bit and actually finding somebody that... Maybe they don't have all the skill sets, but they've got the character attributes that are really important for our culture, and we just make the choice to, I know that this person is going to fit and they have some incredibly good skills. I just need to help them level it up and they're going to be great.

Sandesh Sukumaran: I totally agree with you. I think there are two sets of requirements that you're talking about. One is the hires that we make for our customers. Some of our customers are in the regulated industry or they need this person to be in the same time zone. Most of our customers, on the staffing side, we said we will only do the hires in the US. Most of our hires is North America. The other set that you're talking about is more on the operation side where you need those attributes that is going to take your culture, your values, and take it. Absolutely right. You don't need them to be a rock star from day one. You can always... Because what I've seen is some of the skill set is not there in the market yet because we use our own platform, which means we will have to train the new set of people onto our platform first and make them competent enough to use the way we send messages, the way we send emails, the way we communicate to our candidates. In fact, I don't know if you've noticed, we have basically upstreamed ourselves where we generally don't... Along with each job description, we even put videos. That's a whole new skill set for a lot of people. So you got to trust that people are going to do it. You got to train them. You got to bring those culture and values into it. So yeah, I agree. There is no perfect candidates in the world. You got to groom them. You got to trust them and make sure that they feel that they can fill into larger roles in the organization.

Overcoming Roadblocks and Preparing for Growth

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. So, Sandesh, one of the things you touched on earlier that I think could be easy for people to miss was you touched on you already have plans to hire a CEO to replace you. So you obviously want to scale the business. What are your thoughts on that right now? How do you plan to do that? And what roadblocks do you see potentially being in your way?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Roadblocks is our own scale, to be honest with you. So we have been very methodical and very surgical about how we want to go to the market, what is our mile marker look like. So for my own replacement, I have already identified someone within the organization. I said, the culture is to identify those people who you think can grow into your role. You have already started to groom that person into looking at all the aspects of the business, including HR, finance, and all that. Though we are very small, I think that it needs to be from within, and you start grooming that person into that role at this point.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. You've already got somebody that you're holding their hand at this point. But I think what's helping you is you're already thinking about these things. You're not just looking at the next step in front, you're looking much further down the road and already starting to plan for those things because I think we all know businesses, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. You got to think you're thinking long term, which I think is such an amazing skill set because too many people think short term. What can I do today to get this fix taken care of? And a lot of times those short term fixes are detrimental to the long term health of the business. But I think as humans, we're naturally wired to want those short term benefits.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Tim, I think similar to how you articulated that this can fit into marketing roles as well. It doesn't necessarily need to be just IT. I had a conversation with my general counsel and I was showing him the product and he said the exact same thing, Tim, that you said. He said, I have the same challenges that you are able to solve for your current customers because when I'm looking for attorneys, I don't really have time. I wish there was someone who could do all the prequalifications for me. So this just doesn't necessarily apply only for IT. It applies to marketing. It applies to any industry. So my hope is that once we have a good stability, good headcount, then I take myself out and sell the platform as a service because we are currently not doing that. We are using this purely as a differentiator for our industry and we want to, and thankfully, a lot of our prospects see it that way. I just had a very nice conversation with a large health insurance company procurement manager or VP of procurement. And she was amazed by the idea that we had and how we could bring value to them. So staffing and that solution we can do, but we want to take it to the other industry as a service. We want to sell services like recruiting or interviewing as a service also in near term. One other thing that we also are missing is selling the solutions part of it where you could take the whole project and do it. So a lot of opportunities lie ahead of us. That's what I'm more excited about because we are really solving this problem, but there is a lot of other challenges that we want to solve.

Tim Fitzpatrick: There's so many different paths you could take to scale the business. That's what I find so exciting because you just touched on licensing, interviewing as a service, you could take... Once you nail IT, you could take that exact same model, go to legal, go to accounting, marketing. The sky's the limit.

Sandesh Sukumaran: The sky's the limit. I think even recruiting as a service. Tim, we did all this. My accountant tells me that it is almost 900 % growth, but we did it with three recruiters and one account manager. We just added a recruiting manager very recently. And imagine if we could do this with such a small staff, if we were to give the same platform and provide few recruiters, that's a whole new set of service for us. That is low cost for a lot of organizations, especially in this downturn of there is a lot of doom and doom which is being talked about. But I see this business being so amazing. I'm very optimistic for what future holds for us.

Crafting Your Value Proposition: Overcoming Challenges in Marketing Messaging

Tim Fitzpatrick: One of the things that you touched on in the pre interview and some of the information that you provided us was you had to do with your marketing message and communicating your value proposition as elements of your marketing that you were concerned about. What have you done to work on this? And why do you think this is a challenge for you?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Tim, marketing is in my, at least, my opinion, marketing is like building a wall similar to the wall that you have behind you. You build that wall one brick or one stone at a time. Marketing is that to me. And to be honest with you, we have not done a great job because we wanted to run really fast. Marketing is often very important but never urgent for a lot of organizations. And we are a victim of that. We have done a great job for a lot of customers, but we've not been able to tell that story through either our website or blogs and things like that. We have not done a great job. That is something that I want to do this year is put a real good effort into building a message that resonates pretty well for our customers, resonates pretty well for our prospects, our employees, our vendors. They all need to be on the same page. I think that's my take on marketing. Again, I didn't put a lot of effort into it, but that is something which is going to be an initiative this year.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I think it's so interesting because, and look, you're not on the beach by yourself. With this marketing message is so difficult for a lot of companies. It's hard because we can't see the forest through the trees. We're too close to the fire. We can't think objectively about our businesses. But one of the huge advantages that you have, there are a few advantages that I think you have here. One, you have proof of concept at this point. You know that the problem that you're solving is widespread. It is a big pain point. So they see the value in actually solving that problem and you have a track record now that you can go back on. So although?creating a message that's going to resonate, it's not easy. It's going to take some work. But the best place to start and where we always start with clients is going back and interviewing their ideal clients and just sitting down and going, Okay, Sandash, you've got these current and past clients. We need to sit down and look at who are the clients you love working with, who are the most profitable ones, and who are you getting great results for. The intersection of all three of those, that's where your ideal clients live. And then we start to go out and we talk to them and start to really get in their head and start to ask them questions about what it's like to work with you, how they found you, what results they're experiencing, the problem that you solved, and really just start to understand them. Because once we understand them and we hear it back in their words and not what you think or anybody else on your team thinks, and that's not to say that it's not accurate, but we want to hear it in their words because sometimes we refer to it one way. This happens, especially in tech, marketing, things that are much more technical. We start to talk in technical terms and we lose people because that's not how they think of it. So once we learn how they're speaking about it, that's where the gold comes from. And it helps us craft that message that's going to resonate with them, that it grabs their attention and it gets them to take action. And that's how you're going to be able to create that message that's really going to resonate. And the fact that you have had the success you have already just, again, speaks to the problem that you're solving. The minute you start to talk about it in a way where it really resonates, all of a sudden the marketing vehicles you use, they have rocket fuel, whereas they had no gas or they had leaded fuel. And then the vehicles are going down the road, but once you give it that rocket fuel, bam, it really starts to take off. So it's so many of us struggle with message. I struggle with my message for my company because, again, I don't think about it objectively. But when we go back to our clients and hear it in their words, inevitably, things just... They bubble to the surface and you just point out. It just becomes really obvious. I'll give you an example, and hopefully this will help the audience, too. I'll give you a couple of examples. One, we worked with a residential siding contractor a while ago. This was probably four or five years ago. In that space, everybody talks about high quality number one siding contractor in Denver or wherever it may be. That's table stakes. Nobody, we expect that. It's not a differentiator. When we started looking at their reviews on Google, there was a woman who said, The thing I really loved about working with them was they treated my house like it was their own.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Wow. That's awesome.

Tim Fitzpatrick: That's it. The minute I read that, I was like, That's it. And that became their core message. Because look, everybody's selling high quality siding, but don't you want to work with the contractor that treats your house like it was their own? They're going to put on the booties. There's not going to be crap all over your house. The job is going to be done meticulously because that's what we do when we're working on our own house. Now, there was another one. This is a more recent client where in the client interviews, the client referred to them like a security blanket. I was like, Oh, my gosh. In their industry and what they're offering, they are like a security blanket for the company. Safe. When I'm uncomfortable, I'm not quite sure what to do, I want to grab my binky and suck my thumb. When you talk to clients, inevitably you hear things like this that just you're like, Gosh, I never would have thought about it that way. But when the client says it, it's like, That's it. That's the message. And how they refer to things. In marketing, we talk about SEO. Well, why do people want to do SEO? Well, they don't want to do SEO because they love SEO. They want to do SEO because they want to get found. We don't really necessarily want to talk about it as SEO. We want to talk about it as we can help your business get found and get discovered. Absolutely. That's the value in starting with that fundamental of you've got experience working with ideal clients at this point. Now it's just a matter of let's go back to them and interview them and extract all the information that we can from them so that we can really understand them. Because once we understand them, then we know where we need to make adjustments, shifts, course corrections, and then we can start to put all of that in place in our plan. So the challenge that you have can be solved, and it's one that a lot of businesses have.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Absolutely. Tim, I think that is the beauty of working with you. You're very simplistic and you explain the things very clearly. That's why we like working and hope we can extend this relationship with you. It's very simple and easy to work with.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Well, I appreciate that. And I think, gosh, it's so easy to overcomplicate things. We all do it. But when we can boil things down to their simplest form, it becomes much easier to implement and execute effectively. Sandesh, this has been a great interview, man. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. I just love how you think. And I think your company just has so much opportunity out there. It's exciting.?

In Conlcusion: How Identifying A Market Gap Led To Explosive Growth

Tim Fitzpatrick: So I want to ask you one last question before we close things out, and that's this. Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you do differently? And frankly, you can answer that based on Outcome Logix or any of your experience, but I know we all pick up things through our experience when we go, Gosh, I think next time around, if I would have known this, I would have been able to avoid that, right?

Sandesh Sukumaran: Yeah. So this is very early on in my journey, two years for a company. It's a very short period of time. We have grown, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't change a whole lot. I would look at continuing to put mile markers ahead of me and taking those in an incremental way and accomplishing that rather than saying, Okay, I want to do it all. So each challenge is break it down and do it that way. That's what I've learned and identified the right people who can do that. You can do everything. So that's what I've learned. I've started to delegate accounting to someone else. I feel what I'm good at is more of lead generation, things like that. I'm trying to focus on that.

Tim Fitzpatrick: One of the other things you touched on, Sandesh, too, and I'm going to pull this out because I don't know if you've learned this from past experience or it's just always been with you. But one of the things you touched on earlier was about getting family support and buy in when you started the company. I just think that is something that so many of us overlook. But it is such a critical element because no matter what your family looks like, kids, significant others, starting a business and growing a business takes a lot of effort. And sometimes there's imbalance at times. And getting that buy in and support from the people that are closest to you, I think, is so important. And it makes things easier when things become difficult, if that makes sense.

Sandesh Sukumaran: It does make sense, Tim. I think I'm truly blessed to have support from my family, especially my wife and my son. I can't discount him. He is a great supporter. In fact, on a trip back from New York, I was asking them, do you know what our logo is? Speed? So what I write on my LinkedIn is speed and quality of service leads to better outcome. That was after my son corrected me. I had put speed and quality of service can lead to better outcome. So he said, Dad, you're not sure about that. So I said, No, son. And really, he was like 12, 13 year old at that time. So I was like, Yeah, it makes sense. You know, what you're saying makes sense. They're watching you. They're giving you the guidance. They're telling you what to do. My wife, it's extremely important for me that she allowed me to do it because it's knowing that there will be no paycheck coming in from day one. It takes almost two years for you to even draw any salaries when you're in a startup and when you're doing the bootstrap. But when you start having successes, I realized that you are in a rush because as an entrepreneur, your ideas are now kicking in. Customers are coming in, they see the value, and you're in this zone where you're on top of things. But I realized that it's all because of her, where I am today. So I have a lot of gratitude for her to allow me to pursue my journey, and I would do anything for her if she wanted to do something.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Sandesh, I have really enjoyed this conversation. Where can people learn more about you?

Sandesh Sukumaran: They can find me on our website, outcomelogix.com, or they can also reach me on my LinkedIn. I'm an open networker. You can reach me. I pick calls. I'm an old school guy. I pick every call. Unless it's marked as spam, I pick calls. So call me. I want to talk to people.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Cool. So if you guys want to connect with Sandesh, Outcome Logix, and that's L-O-G-I-X .Com. And then at LinkedIn, it's Sandesh Sukumaran. We'll make sure that those links are in the show notes so that you can connect with Sandesh. I've enjoyed connecting with them, so please, I'd encourage you guys to connect with them as well. Smart guy, obviously knows what he's doing. Thank you. I've learned from you and I know other people will as well.

Sandesh Sukumaran: Thanks, Tim, for the opportunity. I think really appreciate this.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah, absolutely. It's been my pleasure. Those of you watching, listening, thank you for doing so. We've been digging into revenue acceleration. How do I scale? If you want to scale and grow and accelerate revenue growth, you got to remove your roadblocks. If you want to identify which roadblocks are slowing down your growth, head on over to?revenueroadblockscorecard.com. It focuses on the nine revenue roadblocks we see within marketing. It'll help you discover and assess those so that you know what is holding you back. If you want to connect with us, over on our website, you can do that at rialtomarketing.com. Thank you so much. Until next time, take care.

Connect With Sandesh Sukumaran

• Linkedin

Links From The Episode

• Outcome Logix

About the author,?Tim Fitzpatrick

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