How to Get Hired and Bust Inclusion Myths

Underrepresented groups face endless systemic barriers in the job search, workplace and beyond. Where do those obstacles come from? A lot of them emerge from myths perpetuated throughout the world of work. For example, people may say they're for diverse talent — as long as they're good. Or, they support women because they provide maternity leave.

Mita Mallick , who is LinkedIn Top Voice and inclusion champion, is out with a new bestselling book busting those myths and more to help transform workplaces. The book is Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths To Transform Your Workplace . Mita, who is also the co-host of the podcast Brown Table Talk , chatted about the book and what she hopes people will take away from it with LinkedIn News Early Career Development Editor Gianna Prudente on the latest episode of Get Hired. The two also discuss how to combat common misconceptions to ensure allyship happens both in the workplace and behind closed doors.

You can listen to the latest episode of Get Hired above or on Apple Podcasts by clicking here . A transcript of the conversation is also available below.

TRANSCRIPT: How to Get Hired and Bust Inclusion Myths

Andrew Seaman: A lot of the systemic barriers people face in the workforce are based on myths. We're busting some of those on today's episode. From LinkedIn News, this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs in the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn Senior Managing Editor for Jobs and Career Development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.

If you've ever experienced discrimination in the workforce, it's likely due to the person or people on the other side of the table coming to the meeting with a set of preconceived opinions based on myths. This likely rings especially true for people of color. Fortunately, we're joined today by Mita Mallick, who is out with the book Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace. She's also the co-host of Brown Table Talk, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts. Mita sat down with my colleague, Gianna Prudente, at LinkedIn's Talent Connect Summit to discuss the lessons from her book. Here's Gianna.

Gianna Prudente: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the recording of LinkedIn News's Get Hired podcast live at Talent Connect. And I'm so excited for this conversation, especially with the backdrop being LinkedIn's Talent Connect Summit. HR and talent leaders are here to discuss the future of work and that conversation cannot be had without talking about how we can create an inclusive workplace for all. So Mita, to start us off, share with us what inspired you to write Reimagine Inclusion?

Mita Mallick: I wanted to say the quiet parts out loud of what holds us back from making meaningful progress in this work. There are a lot of great books on leadership and inclusion out there, and I wanted to go back through my career and think about the things that I had heard most often that were myths. They're like stories I tell my kids at bedtime or stories we tell each other in the workplace. And when we hold onto those things that aren't true, it actually holds us back from creating more inclusive cultures.

Gianna: Amazing. I want to start with myths one to three, which covered the foundational skills we need to continually develop on our journeys to becoming more inclusive leaders. And you emphasize in the book that inclusion doesn't start at our conference room tables, it starts at our kitchen tables. Can you share what you mean by that?

Mita: So the most recent stat I have is we spent over $8 billion on diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts as a country. This is US alone. And I feel that we're doing this work backwards. So we spend so much time at work thinking of how we can chase inclusion and be more inclusive. But the work starts at our kitchen tables. And one of the exercises I provide in Reimagine Inclusion, which I'm sure you remember, is really about who are your friends and who do you spend time outside of work with? And so for anyone listening right now, I ask you to just quickly think about these things. Who do you spend your weekends with? When you're at line in the grocery store, who do you see? What bars and restaurants do you frequent? And as I ask you these questions, think about who is physically there, who do you see?

And then if I was to ask you, Gianna, who are the five people you call, text, or email when you have something to celebrate or something that's on your mind, if they all act like you, look like you, and think like you, the reality is most of us are still self-segregating in this country. So my question is, if we're not building cross-cultural relationships outside of work, how are you then expecting me, Mita, to lead a diverse team? I could have built a diverse team, but the question is am I fit to lead it? And that's where stereotypes come in. If we don't meet people who have different lived experiences than us, we don't realize it, but we bring that into the workplace.

Gianna: And you write in your book about expanding your social circle. So when you think about expanding it, what does that actually look like in action?

Mita: The statistics show that two-thirds of white Americans are still self-segregating, and similar numbers for Black Americans in the US. And so it really looks like thinking about where are you volunteering? Is it the same church, synagogue, temple? Have you thought about traveling to a neighborhood outside of your own? I once worked with a leader in Vermont who said to me, now, if you're sitting in the US, Vermont is statistically one of the whitest states in the US, "Well, what do you want me to do? Move? How do I meet other people?" And the global pandemic taught us, I mean especially a platform like LinkedIn, you can meet people anywhere virtually. And so with intention trying to meet people who have different lived experiences than you, whether it's where you shop, where you vacation, where you worship, and just thinking about those things.

Gianna: Yeah, it's all about being intentional like you said. In myths two, you talk about every day conscious and unconscious decisions we make at work, like who do I invite to this team offsite?

Mita: Yes.

Gianna: Who do I add to this meeting invite? You write that being an inclusive leader isn't just about making sure everyone's voices are heard and that they feel included. You say it's about access, amplification, and advocacy. Can you share what you mean by that framework?

Mita: So access is literally, did you invite me to have a seat at the table and is my voice heard? Do my contributions matter? Because let me tell you, in my career I've definitely been given a seat at the table, but my voice didn't matter. So that's one part of it. That's access.

Amplify. How are you going to amplify my voice and give me credit? So I could never understand throughout my career why I would do work that other people would present. Isn't that just strange? Why can't I present my own work? Why do I have to send the deck to someone else who's going to send it to the CEO or someone else who's going to present it? And one of the biggest things about inclusion, Gianna, is it's about feeling valued, seen, and recognized for our contributions at work. And it's the biggest retention tool we have access to.

And then when we think about advocate. Are you going to say my name when I'm not in the room? Are you going to put me up for opportunities? A job that I didn't even know was open? Are you going to bring up, "Have we looked at Mita's pay recently because we brought in a lot of external people? How is her pay compared to the other people that we've hired?"

So those are some of the three basic foundational things that I talk about when I talk about the framework.

Gianna: When it comes to amplifying voices, it's giving people credit for their work. And like you said, we all can probably remember a time when somebody raised their hand in a meeting and said, "Oh, that was me." And you're like, "What? I contributed that." How does a culture of recognition or praise really foster an inclusive workplace and what does that look like when done effectively?

Mita: Why do I stay at my employer? I stay because I feel valued, seen, recognized, celebrated. My voice matters, my contribution matters. I feel like I'm making an impact every day and people are actually recognizing me for it. So how does it feel to go to work and not get recognized for the work you're doing? Why would you want to stay? And I promise you, when I find that, I stay. And that's a price of belonging that I can't put a price tag on.

Sure, if I was working for you and I felt that way, maybe I'd move for $100,000 more, but probably not for 20,000 or 30,000. Or even in my career when I've led businesses that are in double-digit decline, I stayed. I didn't even look because I was like, "Wow, people really value what I'm doing here and respect what I'm doing here."

And so that's why it's so important that leaders think about how can you get the most out of your people? How can they reach their potential so your company reaches its potential?

Gianna: Yeah. And that last piece on being an advocate. You mention in the book this idea of being voluntold at work.

Mita: Yes.

Gianna: Meaning you're volunteered to do something without giving permission. And often that busy work can take you away from more impactful tasks. So how should leaders think about equitably distributing that work rather than just burdening one person with it?

Mita: Just because I am the best note-taker, doesn't mean you should ask me every single time. Because every time you're asking me to order the lunch, do the virtual happy hour, all these things that are team-building and are important, it's taking time away from the value I want to add at work in terms of the job you hired me for. So why can't we stop and think about how we actually rotate those responsibilities? Particularly when it comes to gender, we think about the burden women face in disproportionately taking on more office work, which as many people have researched and documented are non-promotable tasks. I'm not going to be promoted for how many virtual off-sites I put together. They're important, but that's not going to get me paid more or get me to the next level.

Andrew: We'll be right back with Gianna and Mita.

Andrew: And we're back with my colleague, Gianna Prudente, and Mita Mallick, who is the author of Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace.

Gianna: I want to jump into myth three, which tackles having conversations about race at work. You mention that too often we ask people of color to facilitate those conversations and we burden employee resource groups to push DEI agendas. You write, "We ask and expect those from historically marginalized communities to rise above the pain and trauma they experience and teach us about their pain and trauma." How does relying on historically marginalized communities to educate others harm DEI efforts?

Mita: I strongly believe that employee resource groups, ERGs are not your diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy. ERGs are important for community, conversation. They're an important partner to the work we're doing. But throughout my career, I've always asked myself, "Why is it that we go to the ERGs to educate us?" There's another tragedy that happens. We could pick up our phones today of another community that's hurt and harmed. And we ask that community to come and talk about their pain while everyone else sits and listens. And for me, I always talk about I'm on a journey to be an ally to the Black community. I'm on a journey, it's not a destination. And the only people who can tell you if I'm an ally for the Black community are my Black friends and colleagues.

There is a burden as an ally. I have to be the one educating myself on the issues facing the Black community versus constantly asking. And I do in safe relationships as I talk about in Reimagine Inclusion. But the last thing I'll say about this is storytelling is the oldest form of communicating in human civilization. And so I think it is an instinct for us when something happens to go and ask somebody how they feel. But imagine if I'm the only brown woman on the team and you come to me and say, "Oh, I saw there was another anti-Asian hate crime. How do you feel about that, Mita?" And you think to yourself, "Well, there's me individually processing it, but there's also intergenerational trauma that's been passed down." And by asking me to reshare that story or how I feel, I'm being retraumatized.

Gianna: So when we think about getting comfortable with talking about race at work, what does that really entail?

Mita: So you have to have relationships that are built with individuals if you want to have conversations around race. I was born having courageous conversations on race as a woman of color in this country. I can't remember a time that I didn't. So I think I asked leaders to think about if you've never had to have a courageous conversation on race, then think about privilege that you might hold in that. And that if somebody is coming to share something with you that's happened at work, that's traumatic, if I was to come share something with you, your job, I talk about, is not to be an investigative journalist, although you are a journalist, but in this situation you wouldn't say who, what, where, why? You wouldn't dismiss what happened. You wouldn't say, "Oh, you're being too sensitive," or, "That person, I've known them for a long time. Are you sure they did that?"

And so I think part of it is the reason why we don't want to enter into these conversations is because there's not closure. If I come and share something with you traumatic, you want to solve it. And solving systemic racism doesn't happen overnight. But for you to listen to me and allow me to hold space and check in and see how I can help, that's what's important.

Gianna: I think for so many of us, it's intuitive to say, "Here's how I relate to that." They're coming to you trusting in you given that space to let it out.

And now I want to talk a bit about the recruitment side of building an inclusive workplace, which you cover in myths four to six. You write in the book, "You often hear leaders say, there just aren't enough qualified Black candidates out there. It's not our issue. It's a pipeline issue. Of course, I want more people of color on my team. Recruiting can't find any candidates. This creates the myth that you can't hire diverse talent without lowering the bar." So how should leaders reframe their mindset around this belief?

Mita: So this myth I talk about is I'm all for diverse talent as long as they're good. And I ask us to stop and think about that statement. And I ask you to think, would you ever say, "I'm all for non-diverse talent as long as they're good."

So why is it when we talk about diverse slates, when we talk about hiring more white women, more women of color, more people of color, automatically we think that we're lowering the bar. And it goes back to do you have a diverse network? Do you have individuals, friends, colleagues from different communities? Because when you don't, that's when you start to think, "Well, Mita's different. She's the only woman of color I've worked with. I don't know if she's up for that job," because you haven't had access to individuals like me.

When we talk about the pipeline myth, I go back to Vermont for a second where I was working with a different leader. And this individual wanted to hire a head of market research. They had the goal of building a diverse slate. He wanted to diversify his team. And at the end of the day, he was not willing to offer a competitive salary. There was going to be no relocation and the job had to be in state.

And so then you ask yourself, "Okay, didn't we just create our own pipeline problem?" Because you've created so many internal barriers knowing that the availability of talent for people of color in the state of Vermont is I think less than 2%. And that's the population. I'm not talking about the talent for that role. And so I talk about oftentimes we create our own pipeline. Right? We've just created it ourselves. And so thinking about what are the internal barriers that you've set up.

Gianna: And with creating those barriers ourselves, you mention putting degree requirements on jobs. How has the push for skills-based hiring broadened the availability of talent?

Mita: There's talent that I'm sure we have overlooked over decades and decades because you didn't have this degree, that degree. I remember being trained as a marketer. What did they tell me in my first interviews when I was interviewing other marketers? I flipped to the back of the resume to see if they had an MBA and from what business school. And this was what I was taught in corporate America. And you ask yourself, "How relevant is that actually versus what are the skills, what's the expertise?" And really going back to what you're looking for in the job description and what are the talent and skills I bring to the table?

Gianna: And for talent leaders listening in who want to know how they can personally impact their organization's recruitment efforts, you share three ways, gaining access to diverse pipelines, creating fair and inclusive interviewing experiences, and assessing how talent is evaluated. I want to start with gaining access to diverse pipelines. How is that done?

Mita: We are all talent scouts. It's not recruiting's job to find talent. It's all of our jobs. LinkedIn. Oh my goodness, I can't say enough about LinkedIn. There are so much talent on LinkedIn that you can be meeting and just consistently be meeting people. Imagine if you could have two coffees a month, either in person or virtual. You're a CMO, meet with marketers because you never know what role will be available. And so that's the thing that I always see is when people are under pressure, "I have this job to fill, what do I do?" And it's like I go to my networks, which maybe aren't very diverse, which goes to the employee referrals piece, right? Employee referrals can really backfire if you are asking people to refer individuals who end up looking just like them, and we don't even realize that. So always be on the lookout for talent.

Gianna: And with fair and equitable interviewing experience, you mention ways to do this would be adhering to the same process for all candidates, taking notes and submitting an evaluation in a timely manner. Why is it important for candidates to go through the same hiring process and how can talent leaders ensure that this becomes standard practice?

Mita: So here's the live example. You're interviewing me and guess what you discover? We both played lacrosse at Stanford. We both Netflix binge the same shows. We both summer in the same beach in Massachusetts every year. "Oh my goodness, I didn't know we had so much in common." And so what happens? You immediately create an affinity bias. And I've watched leaders do this. Sometimes you won't even ask me the questions for the job. And then you get to debrief the interview panel. "I just loved Mita." And you're like, "Well, what did you love about her?" Well, it has nothing to do with the job description. And then you might actually accelerate my process and you might actually, because you like me so much, feel like I don't need to meet with as many people.

But let's say I was interviewing you and I perceived a difference about you. Whatever it is made me uncomfortable. It's how you looked, how you communicated, where you went to school. And then all of a sudden I'm like, "I just don't know about Gianna. I need her to meet three more people. I actually need her to meet four people. I actually need her to now do a business case," which is the whole thing that's happening in interviewing, because I perceive a difference. Rather than creating the same questions that are fair and equitable and making sure they are interviewing with the same individuals, same questions are being asked, you're sticking to their skills, value fit, and the job description.

Gianna: Yeah. And you've talked a lot about building that inclusive culture and fostering it, but that's only one part. Of course, once you have that in place, it's something you always have to protect and continue to improve and continue to build. What's your advice to talent leaders on maintaining an inclusive culture day to day and also long term?

Mita: This is the myth where I talk about we protect the a-holes because our businesses wouldn't run without them. And I ask talent leaders to think about how much are we willing to invest in a toxic leader who is chipping away at your culture? It's really interesting. We talk a lot about talent attraction, as we are here today, and this is a big part of what you all do in the conference, but what about when I'm here? And what about if I've had five women of color leave the team in 10 days? Is anyone watching for that? What are we doing with exit interview data?

Gianna: Yeah.

Mita: How are we thinking about how much we're going to sacrifice the company to keep Mita, a toxic leader, versus thinking about everybody else who's here who's being hurt and harmed by her. So I ask people to think about that. Why do we hold onto toxic leaders? What is it that holds us back from actually letting them go and moving on to heal themselves?

Gianna: The investment in DEI efforts, what you get from that, it seems so clear. But I think to so many, it can feel overwhelming. How do I even begin? Maybe I realize my company does have a major problem that needs to be assessed. So what would be your suggestion to talent leaders today on how to actually implement these strategies?

Mita: Read my book, and just one or two things at a time. It's like you're not going to boil the ocean overnight. Start measuring or tracking a few things when it comes to recruitment, when it comes to promotion, retention of talent. Start looking at your products and services and who are you selling to and why or who you're ignoring? I promise if you just start with one or two things and you have wins, then the momentum builds. But it can be really overwhelming. Especially if you're a startup versus a Fortune 10 company, resources are different, the landscape looks different. But you have to start doing just one or two things to see momentum.

Gianna: We're nearing the end of our conversation, but I want you to share what you hope people gain from your book.

Mita: I hope that people read my book and they're inspired to be more inclusive leaders and more inclusive human beings. And this work can seem daunting. The question I would ask everybody is, we're all chasing inclusion. We all want to feel like we belong. But ask yourself, who are you helping at work? Who feels more included and feel like they belong because of you? What are you doing personally to foster that, whether you're a leader or an individual contributor? And I hope you take away just one or two things from the book and we can show up differently to our workplaces tomorrow. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.

Gianna: Thank you so much for joining us, Mita. This is such a great conversation.

Andrew: That was my colleague, Gianna Prudente, and the author of Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace, Mita Mallick.

Remember, it's up to you to put our advice into practice. Still, you always have a community backing you up and cheering you on. Connect with me and the Get Hired community on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. Also, if you liked this episode, please take a moment to leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts. It helps people like you find the show. And don't forget to click that follow, subscribe, or whatever other button you find to get our podcast delivered to you every Wednesday, because we'll be continuing these conversations on the next episode right here, wherever you like to listen.

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. This episode was produced by Alexis Ramdaou. Rafa Farihah is our associate producer. Assaf Gidron engineered our show. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Dave Pond is head of news production. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Courtney Coupe is the head of original programming for LinkedIn. Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn. And I'm Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.