How To Effectively Measure ROI With Content Marketing

Content marketing shouldn’t be difficult, yet it is for so many businesses. Our special guest today, Michael Brenner from Marketing Insider Group, is a content marketing expert. We will dig into all things content marketing including what it is, how it drives growth, common content marketing mistakes, and how to effectively measure ROI.

Join?Tim Fitzpatrick?and?Michael Brenner?for this week’s episode of The Rialto Marketing Podcast!

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How To Effectively Measure ROI With Content Marketing

Tim Fitzpatrick: Content marketing shouldn't be difficult, yet it is for so many businesses. That is why I've got a special guest with me today who is a content marketing expert. We are going to dig into all things content marketing. What it is, how it can drive growth, tips for you for implementing it in 2023, how to measure ROI, so much more. You do not want to miss this. Hi, I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe you must remove your revenue roadblocks if you want to accelerate revenue growth. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. I am really excited to have with me Michael Brenner from Marketing Insider Group. Michael, welcome, and thanks for taking the time.

Michael Brenner: Yeah, thanks for having me, Tim. Great to be here.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yes, I'm excited to dig into this. Content marketing certainly isn't anything new, but, man, it's still something that a lot of people are overlooking. So I am excited to talk about this. Before we do that, want to learn a little bit more about you. I'm going to ask you some rapid fire questions. Are you ready to rock?

Michael Brenner: I'm ready.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay. When you're not working, how do you like to spend your time?

Michael Brenner: Well, I've got four kids, so I'm mostly chasing the sporting events and practices.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay. How old?

Michael Brenner: 19 down to eleven.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay. Wow. Yeah, I can imagine they keep you busy.

Michael Brenner: Yeah, for sure. But it's tough.

Tim Fitzpatrick: What's your hidden talent?

Michael Brenner: Black belt in jujitsu. No, actually, I think my hidden talent literally is hiding looking calm in the face of stress. People think I'm pretty calm guy, but I'm actually quite bothered under the surface.

Tim Fitzpatrick:Are you really a black belt in jujitsu?

Michael Brenner: No.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay. That would have been a cool hidden talent, too. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Michael Brenner: Let's see. So my dad's best piece of advice to me growing up was always he had this thing on the refrigerator. It was one word quit your bellyacon. Basically, stop complaining. So that's always my go to. But professionally, I remember when I was in college, this mentor of mine said, 90% of life is just showing up, which I thought was pretty I thought it was pretty, you know, cynical at the time. But, you know, I think in our professional lives, you find a lot of people that aren't really checked in and are pretty checked out, and and I think, you know, I do think that's pretty good advice. It's just just show up.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. Yeah. I think if I the only thing I would add to that is show up consistently. Right. There are people that start to show up, and then they stop and yeah. So if we can just show up and do it consistently, man, you're ahead of so many people. What's one thing about you that surprises people?

Michael Brenner: Let's see. I feel like it's kind of my hidden talent, but I do like to do yoga. That's something that people are always that's interesting.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I like it.

Michael Brenner: Yeah, I'll go with that one.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Mindfulness. I will tell you as my younger self, totally overlooked mindfulness and anything associated with it, but the older I get, the more I gravitate to it, so I think there's a lot to be gained from it. What does success mean to you?

Michael Brenner: Gosh, I think just being respected and having a conversation with you in this situation is success for me. Just meeting people, being with people, being able to share guidance and advice in the industry, giving back a little bit at this stage in my life, that's really success for me.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Where's your happy place?

Michael Brenner: Beach with my kids.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Any beach in particular?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, we have a little shack in a place called Avalon, New Jersey, which is an awesome little getaway for us. We get down there for about I get to work down there for about six weeks every summer, so it's a lot of fun.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Good for you. What qualities do you value in the people you spend time with?

Michael Brenner: I think honesty, humor, sense of humor, kind of standard things. But I will say this, I'm sort of like borderline introvert, extrovert, so I always really appreciate there's always that one guy or gal who can lead the conversation when you're in a group, I always appreciate that person so I don't have to do it.

Tim Fitzpatrick: It's so interesting how many people I talk to that are geared towards being introverts, and most people who see them would not think that's the case. We just work hard at pushing through it.

Michael Brenner: That's right.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So before we talk content marketing, tell me a little bit more about what you're doing at Marketing Insider Group. What types of businesses you're working with?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, we're like 80, 90% B2B SaaS companies, a lot of technology startups. We have some large technology companies. We have a couple of e commerce companies as well, but like 80, 90% of our client bases. B2B SaaS companies that don't quite have a marketing department yet. They have product market fit. They maybe hired a couple of salespeople. They have a nice new website, but they don't have any content to fill it. They don't have any traffic coming to it. So we can kind of help them. We pivoted a couple of times when I left the corporate world, Gosh, about ten years ago, I started doing strategy and speaking, but a lot of my strategy clients were like, we appreciate the strategy, but we really need good content. And so basically just kind of came up with I like, you believe in consistency, showing up consistently. That's really what we do is we help brands consistently show up on the web with quality content.

Tim Fitzpatrick: And from a content standpoint, do you specialize in any particular type of content or are you getting involved in articles, videos, podcasting? Where do you sit in that realm of content?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, we're not a content agency. We are really specifically, I like to say we're a content marketing agency, but what that means is it's kind of a full package service. So we do keyword research, headline development, we propose that to the client and upon approval, we write once or twice a week and then we measure using SEMrush or Ahrefs. We basically say, hey, we did a keyword strategy, we're writing content and we're measuring the result. So essentially our deliverable is traffic and leads, relevant traffic that hopefully converts to leads. But in the end it's all articles. We don't do videos, infographics, that kind of stuff.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Got it. So what you're saying is?blog writing still works.

Michael Brenner: I mean, if you think about it, I don't know if we want to get into Google and SEO and Helpful Content Update. The Helpful Content Update basically said if you have thin content pages, if you only promote on your website what you sell, we're going to delist you from the rankings. If you provide helpful content in the form of blog articles, those are the companies that websites that win. And so once the technical aspect of SEO is covered, which is now fundamental foundational for any blog site, it's just content. And so we fill that need. 90% of our clients all saw increases after the Helpful Content Update in August and the ones that didn't just have really bad websites. And so that's another thing that needs to get fixed. But yeah, so I think content still works. Content will always work. I always love to say that, if you think of marketing as a Venn diagram, the one circle is the shit, that the crap. Sorry, excuse me. Yeah, and it's all good crap that we all create that no one cares about. And on the other circle is the stuff people actually want. And so content marketing is the overlap. It's the stuff that it's the expertise that a company has that actually answers a question that a customer actually has. And so that will always work, it's what marketing is.

What Content Marketing Really Means for your Business

Tim Fitzpatrick: So I want to take a step back. We started digging into content. How do you define content marketing?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, it's actually a good segue because I have a different definition that I think a lot of people in the industry because a lot of people confuse and I like to say a lot of people confuse marketing with content and content marketing especially, I find, like in the UK, for some reason in some countries and brands in Europe, they think that content marketing is just another name for content. And creating a white paper, doing an ad, it's content marketing. For me, content marketing is strategically publishing consistent content that maps to buyer interests. So it's CNN and Fox News publish articles every day about the political world. Well, brands need to do the same and it needs to be not what you want to say, but what your onheest is actually interested in, and then I kind of finish that with and the brands that do content marketing, they can point to a measurable result. So what's the ROI of an ebook or an infographic? Probably not a lot, if any, but you can point to your website that publishes consistent content focused on customer needs, and you can show the pathway to conversions of revenue.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay, I want you to say that one more time, the definition, because I think this is easy for people to miss. You talked about strategically publishing.

Michael Brenner: I'll boil it down. Consistently publishing customer focused content on your website and measuring results to ROI.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I love it because there are so many people out there creating content that they're not measuring the ROI from it. Some of them just don't have any idea how to even begin to measure the ROI. And I love how you talk about being strategic about it. You're going into it with open eyes. You've got a plan of what you're going to do and why you're actually doing it. We're not just throwing spaghetti up against a wall hoping that it's going to stick.

Michael Brenner: No. And I think it's also important to think about it as a counterpoint to the campaign mentality, which, like a lot of our clients will say, why are you going to do an annual content plan for me that the world's going to change in three months. And what's really interesting is the world really doesn't change every three months. Like, you know, the, the gaps that you have on your website today relative to your competition on SEO and search and keywords and volume of traffic are probably the same today as they will be in twelve months. And so just because Chat Gpt was launched, or China launches a weather balloon, those things are not going to change the keyword gaps on your website.

Content Marketing and How it Drives Growth

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. So this leads into my next question, which is about content marketing and how it drives growth. You obviously may think a little bit differently about this than others, but can you break that down a little bit? Because you guys are really, you're doing the keyword research, determining what types of articles you need to create, and then you're actually creating it. But I'm assuming that because you guys are doing the SEO research up front, that's what's driving the growth long term.

Michael Brenner: Yeah. Content marketing helps to build a foundation to help two different audiences understand what you care about. And those two different audiences are important. One is the actual audience you're selling to. How do they find you? Well, they find you because someone else told them to go find you because you're known in the industry as an expert. Or the second audience is Google. Google tells you to go there because you rank for that topic. The only way to do that is through consistent publishing. And so content marketing drives growth because you're building awareness, but not in classic branding, marketing, traditional marketing sets you're building awareness by helping people consistently. Back to the helpful content update. Websites that publish good content are going to start to earn the rankings and the traffic and the authority and the awareness that comes from that. The other thing I love to say is people are searching for questions in Google or with their peers every single day. And so every day you don't publish is a day that you're missing out on an opportunity to answer those questions and earn the trust of your audience that could potentially buy from you. It's like salespeople, they don't think of themselves as selling on Mondays and Tuesdays and golfing on Thursdays and Fridays. Like those days are over. Salespeople sell all the time. Marketers need to create helpful content all the time.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So with the blog articles you guys are creating, specifically you're answering specific questions. But my guess is focused more on longer search terms for very specific questions. What are you doing on the site itself to try and capture leads? I mean, do you have consistent calls to action throughout articles in sidebars? What are your thoughts on that?

Michael Brenner; Yeah, we actually just published an article Monday on website redesign mistakes to avoid. We had one of our best case studies last year is a company that they did stick with us through some pretty tough economic times on their side, but three or four months in they were like, hey, we're getting all this great traffic, all these great SEO results, but it's not converting. What's wrong with your program? And I'm like, dude, look at your website. You're the only B2B software company I've ever seen that doesn't have click here to get a demo on their website. There was zero calls to action or pathways to conversion as I like to call them. And so one of the biggest redesign mistakes I see, for example, is a single column article format. Designers love it because it's clean and readers like it, I think maybe, but websites that have a second column that says subscribe here, click to download our template for whatever. Click here to read one of our most popular articles which are all things that you'll find on my website. They all generate next actions and that's what websites are designed to do. The number one web redesign mistake is form over function and that means double column blog article page where 90% of most traffic goes to on most websites. A secondary color call to action like get a demo or talk to a salesperson in the main navigation offers embedded in your content like website. We've got offers like every four lines like download this ebook, check out a case study. We're not trying to be annoying, but we're just giving people an opportunity to off ramp to something that's going to be valuable. And so those are some simple things that folks just miss because I don't know if they're lazy or they're paying attention to designers who are really good at convincing them of beautiful websites that don't perform the function a website is supposed to perform.

Tim Fitzpatrick: I also think, too, that this goes back to the strategy and understanding why you're doing something right and having a 10,000 foot view of, what does this path look like? Right. And if you come at it from that side of it, like, you don't want somebody just to read the article. You want them to take another step. Right. And so if we don't tell them what that next step is, they're just going to leave. Right. And so I think a lot of?people just overlook the strategic and the planning side?of it at the expense of just taking the action. Well, we're publishing blog posts. That's what we need to do. Thank you for touching on that, because I love that. So we might as well dig into ROI here while we're talking about this, because you touched on this, but what are some of the things that you guys are doing to measure ROI with content?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, I mean, we're looking at a pipeline generated from blog articles, which basically comes in the form of someone reads an article, they click on an offer is really what it comes down to. We've got webinar recordings, ebooks, white papers. That's probably the easiest path. Second would be Contact us, which doesn't happen as often as I'd like. It's like, 0.1% of all traffic clicks on that button, but a good 50% of those people convert to clients for us. And we very clearly in the contact us form state, what budget do you have? And I list my two price points or three price points. And then the third and this is my favorite, because it's just so easy, is we nurture email subscribers, which email doesn't deliver for us what it used to, just like social. But the subscribers that we get, we nurture in a nine partner email series that it kind of goes back and forth between helpful and subtly promotional. A good 50% of our leads come from that nurture series, which, if we get 10-20 subscribers a week, and then we get I mean, I really get probably one lead a week, you know, from that nurture series. If somebody that read an article maybe six months ago and wasn't ready, you know, but now they are, or they get a new CMO or whatever. So, you know, those are the main ones, obviously, contact us, the lead directly capture and then the nurture over time.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So are you tracking I want to break this down because I think it's important for people to understand this. Are you guys using Google Analytics or another tool to track those conversions from the site and the blog content?

Michael Brenner: Yes. Just pure Google analytics. So we have events set up for each of those actions. Email subscribe, contact us, all of the lead forms. We also have a fourth. I have like a calendly integration so people can book a slot with me. So those are the four events that we track in our Google Analytics. We use goal tracking and some value generation estimates. So I can see sort of short term what the value of those conversions are. And then obviously, we track and measure those leads over time to see if they actually convert to ROI.

Tim Fitzpatrick: In your email marketing, when people subscribe, when they've come through a blog post, are they tagged in that way? Do you know in your email marketing where they came in?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, for sure.

Tim Fitzpatrick: You do. So you know that they came in through blog or some other channel.

Michael Brenner: Yeah. So we've got in the conversion rate optimization world, they're called funnels. So we've got a couple of funnels set up. We've got the email subscriber funnel, which is the nine step nurture series. And then if you download an ebook or watch a webinar, you get a different series of a shorter, like maybe three nurtures. I think if you download the webinar recording, or you register for the webinar recording, the second step is you get the ebook. The third, I think, is you get a free PDF from my book. And then the fourth is, hey, buy some stuff.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So from a blog standpoint, the best way to track ROI is using Google Analytics, setting up events, goal conversions, as you touched on. You can assign dollar amounts to that based on whatever it is that they opted into. And that at least starts to give you an idea of how much your content is actually starting to generate for you.

Michael Brenner: Yeah, exactly. We have clients that use HubSpot, clients that use Adobe Experience or Adobe Analytics and other applications that can measure all of those things. But we always ask the question at the end of the first year, well, we ask upfront, how are you measuring ROI? And then at the end we always ask, can you share with us some of the metrics? And it's really cool. Our Hubstock clients always have a pretty clear picture. Adobe clients have a pretty clear picture. Google, you have to kind of take Google for us smaller, I think firms is easier to you still have to make the leap from the analytics to your CRM platform, but whatever tools you're using, make sure you're measuring those events that kick off a conversion.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah, it's the only way you're ever going to know.

Michael Brenner: Exactly.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Which I actually think, okay, so I hope I'm not going down a rabbit hole here, but I think that's also another reason why it's so important to have the main content that you're creating housed on your website. If it's somewhere else that you don't control, it becomes a lot more difficult to measure it. Do you agree with that? Do you think differently about that?

Michael Brenner: No. That's why I mentioned I usually say on a destination you own or a platform you own. In my definition, I said on your website. For most companies, it is your website. But yeah, a YouTube video has no value because it's on YouTube. And so I actually wrote an article about how to embed your YouTube videos, unlist them on YouTube, embed them into articles, and create articles on your website and link to the article from the unlisted video on YouTube. And again, there's nothing wrong with people that have huge social followings, huge YouTube subscribers. Don't even get me started on TikTok. But the point is, as my friend Joe Politi always said, that's rented land. And I was around back when people thought Facebook was the next coming of marketing success. And then Facebook decided to change their algorithm. And people went from like 100% exposure to the followers and fans that liked their brand page to less than 1%. And imagine if you built your whole marketing strategy around Facebook, and then 100% of your fans would see your content, and the next day less than 1% of your fans would see them. That's what you can control on any of those social platforms. Instagram and TikTok are platforms that people can use to, I think, present some cool brand messages, do some interesting storytelling. You got to get them back to your website.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yes, Michael, I talk about the same thing. It's okay to use rented channels, but make sure you're driving them back to a place that you own. Your website. Get them on your email list.

Michael Brenner: Yeah. I'm currently trying to consolidate research on the source of traffic for websites. It's pretty interesting, the sources that I'm getting, there's about three and I'm looking for, I might actually use my own clients and mask it, but less than 2% of corporate average corporate website traffic comes from social. And I always talk to my B2B founders and I'm like, the first hire you made was an intern to manage your Instagram account. You spent 40 grand on a 20 year old kid to post memes on Instagram when you could have spent 40 grand on two articles a week with us. That's going to drive so organic is 80. Organic and direct is 80% of average website traffic. Page is only six. And it's really interesting, even in ecommerce, Instagram or social type approaches are only 5% and paid is only 12%. So even in the most direct consumer sort of type of company, social and paid are a significant minority of the traffic. It's all organic.

Tim Fitzpatrick: So unless and this becomes, I think, a little bit more difficult to track, unless that social traffic is converting on the social platform, it's not driving a lot of conversions on the website.

Michael Brenner: Yeah. To me, the only thing that makes sense, if you're selling nutritional supplements or if you've got a relationship with Kim Kardashian and she's pitching your spam index products or whatever, if it's not an actual ad, I haven't seen any people pulled out like Warby Parker from 2015. Example of how they generated business through some campaign on I think it was Snapchat. There's like three examples of companies that have produced ROI from social media content, and none of them are recent. So again, I think there are reasons to use social platforms for distribution. For credentialing, just, hey, we're a real brand, we have real people, we're fun, but driving leads and business and revenue and pipeline? Absolutely not.

Content Marketing Tips to Implement in 2023

Tim Fitzpatrick: So this has been great. I love this conversation. Let's talk about some practical tips to implement in 2023. What are your thoughts there?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, again, like I said, just show up. And as you added, I think perfectly is consistently like, if you're going to do one thing. My prediction for 2023 content marketing was a return to the basics. Just get back to a consistent publishing schedule of keyword focused question and answer content. If you're not doing that today, you're losing ground to your competition in the industry. So that's a practical tip. Focusing on content on your website, over social and paid. It's just getting harder and harder to generate any kind of value or any even traffic from those sources. My favorite tip, I don't know if you've interviewed Andy Crestina from Orbit Media, have you been on here?

Tim Fitzpatrick: No.

Michael Brenner: So he's a good friend of mine, you should have him on. But I have to give him credit for this tip. It's my favorite practical tip. Go to Google Analytics or whatever analytics platform you're on and run a list of your top ten traffic pages. And then you can go to the Goal Tracking report or whatever platform you're using and identify your top ten converting content pages. So article pages and link them to each other. So in your top traffic pages, in the first paragraph or two, you can make it you make it a text link or make it like a little like, bonus. Check out my content marketing template article here. Link those two things together, traffic and conversion top pages. It's just the simplest way to drive value from the traffic that you're getting and traffic from the conversion pages that you're getting.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay, so this brings up another question for me. What are your thoughts on people call them hub pages, pillar pages? For those that aren't familiar with the term page on your website, that is geared around typically a very specific topic and a lot of interlinking between the content there out to other posts on the page. From a strategic standpoint, how do you feel about hub pages, pillar pages? Do you use that as part of your planning? What are your thoughts on that?

Michael Brenner: So we're not an SEO agency, so whenever I have a strong opinion about SEO, I want to caveat it with that. My personal experience and personal opinion is we don't lead with pillar pages. We believe that people want content written by people, for people written by a human. Pillar pages generally feel very Wikipedia like. What, why? How, when, where, who? Six examples. Click here to learn more. They're very formulaic. It's exactly the kind of content this is where it gets interesting, though. It's exactly the kind of content that Google says it's not going to rank as high, but in actuality, they still do. So that's why I have to kind of cavest it. We have clients who ask us to do pillar pages, and we support them with that. But it's not all that we do for anyone. We'll write a 4000 word pillar page on what is kind of keyword, short tail keyword, and then we recommend at least five to ten articles that support trends, tips, lists, more fun, more personal. I don't know if your audience doesn't know there's a new e in the EAT formula from Google. EAT was expertise, authority, and trustworthiness, and they've added a second e and its experience. Experience means, Hi, I'm Michael Brenner, and when I worked at SAP, I found this worked. Boom, boom, boom. Here's the article. Pillar pages do not they just generally formulaically, don't include that kind of experience factor. And so that's why I think we're right. But the data also says that the pillar pages work. So we'll support a client that asks us to do it. We don't lead with it in our strategy.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Okay, we cannot finish this conversation without talking about Chat GPT. We just can't. Because I know that there's a lot of people that are just drooling over this from thinking, I can use AI to automatically write all my articles and everything, the world will be complete bliss. What are your thoughts?

Michael Brenner: Wow, such a big question. I guess in general, I want to say that the noise it's generated is really interesting. And there's a marketing influencer who I often disagree with, not publicly, but just privately in my mind. On November 15, he published this article that was like, five years ago. I predicted AI would take over my job. Five years later, and here it turns out I was right. And I just kind of rolled my eyes, like, okay, so first of all, you're a know it all because five years ago, you knew exactly what was going to happen. Second of all, Chat GPT did not take your job. You're a marketing consultant. In a webinar, I just did two weeks ago, I typed Chat GPT, get me some leads, and it said, as a generative AI, I can't get leads, but I can tell you, here are five tips for companies that you can use to get leads. And the five tips were, like, the most basic things, like create content, go to conferences. So A, the noise is interesting. The overreaction is even more interesting to me. But let me level set on my opinion. So we have writers. One, I'm concerned about any of them lazily using Chat GPT instead of writing an original human generated article. So we've made it really clear to them, we're testing a couple of tools. They're not there yet. One. For example, originality AI. We ran a test in three different examples of articles written by not Chat GPT, but another AI generated tool. I won't name the tool, but Jasper Writer and I forget the third one that we looked at, but it was one written by one of those platforms. It said that three of them were 90% likely human generated. So it was wrong. Now it it gets 100% AI generated content from Chat GPT. It figures that out most of the time. Google has said that they know what's AI generated content and it will penalize the site that uses it. So our writers know that we're testing and looking to make sure that they're not using it. But we know Google is not, at least right now, saying that they're not going to rank it. But at the same time, I've told our writers, use it for outlines, use it for research, use it to help make your job easier, but you still need to write the article using the EEAT formula. Use expertise and experience and trustworthiness and authority. An AI engine can never do that. So that's my thoughts there, where I do think so I don't think it's going to replace writers. I would be scared a little bit if I was a programmer because I actually think things that are like, don't require human sort of a human voice. It's actually pretty good. I just read an article about a guy who asked Chat GBT to write him a WordPress plugin and did it in less than a minute and he said it was actually pretty good. So those folks, I think, should be worried where I'm really interested to see where this is going to go. And Google, I think, just announced recently today, maybe their integrated Chat AI search engine. I'm interested to see how it impacts search. I believe helpful content will always win. I believe human generated first person experience is always going to be helpful. But I'm really interested to see how it impacts Google and their search dominance.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how they choose to integrate it in with what they're doing. I also read an article are you familiar with Scott Galloway?

Michael Brenner: Yeah.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Interesting dude. He wrote an article about tech because this is not the first time that we've said tech is going to replace humans. And the article he wrote was really fascinating about, hey, when this has happened in the past, the exact opposite has actually happened. We've actually created more jobs from the tech. Now they might be slightly different jobs, but there's more jobs being created as a result of the innovation, which I thought was really interesting.

Michael Brenner: I kind of refer to it as the paradox of AI. The more AI we use, the more human we need to be. And it's a similar kind of thing. Like there's this sort of, you know, correlation that happens with any innovation like this, where it doesn't do what we think it's going to do. And knee jerk reactions are usually never right.

In Conclusion: How To Effectively Measure ROI With Content Marketing

Tim Fitzpatrick: Yeah. Michael, this has been a great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time. Any last minute thoughts you want to leave us with today?

Michael Brenner: No, but Tim, I'll talk to you anytime. I feel like we can talk for hours. Sorry if I yammered on, but this was fun.

Tim Fitzpatrick: No, it's all good, man. So where can people learn more about you? I've got the link scrolling down here. We'll make sure those are in the show note, but really quickly, website and where on Social?

Michael Brenner: Yeah, marketinginsidergroup.com. Check out our content, you'll see our approach. Subscribe to our newsletter, if nothing else, just to see our nurture series. I'd love to hear your thoughts. And my main channel for communication on Social is LinkedIn. And I would ask anybody, if you reach out, mention that you saw the show, and Tim and I'll get it back to you so I can give you some credit.

Tim Fitzpatrick: Awesome. I love it. If you guys have liked this conversation, go connect with Michael. He obviously knows what he's doing. And learn more about how they might be able to help over at marketinginsidergroup.com. Those of you that are watching, listening, thank you for doing so. What we talked about today, content marketing to me, is all about lead gen, lead conversion, which are two of the common revenue roadblocks we help clients remove so they can accelerate growth. If you want to discover which roadblocks are slowing down your growth, jump on over to?revenueroadblockscorecard.com. Less than five minutes, you'll be able to discover that and start moving your roadblocks so that you can grow. If you want to connect with us, you can always head on over to RialtoMarketing.com. Thanks so much, Michael. Appreciate it. Until next time. Take care.

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