How do Businesses use Operations Leader to Executes Success in Software Technology Companies
From Planning to Execution: How a Head of Operations Enables Successful Software Technology Companies

How do Businesses use Operations Leader to Executes Success in Software Technology Companies

Navigating Complexity and Ensuring Operational Excellence in the World of Technology

Who are the readers of this blog: This blog is intended for a wide range of readers, including industry leaders, companies that are looking to expand or facing productivity problems, HR teams, as well as individuals who want to pursue a career direction in operations management.

I. Introduction:

In today's fast-paced business environment, successful companies rely on effective operations management to deliver products and services efficiently and meet customer demands. In software technology companies, where innovation and disruption are the norm, this becomes even more challenging. Companies must navigate complex product development cycles, maintain quality and security standards, and keep up with changing industry trends.

In this blog, we will explore the crucial role of a Head of Operations in enabling successful companies in general, and specifically for software technology companies. As someone who has over 17 years of experience in operational management, business operations and development, marketing, and customer services, I have worked with many startups and medium to large companies. I have extensively researched the operational structures of these companies and the role of a Head of Operations in them. Through this blog, I aim to share my expertise and provide insights into the key functions and responsibilities of a Head of Operations, and how they drive the success of a software technology company.

In the following sections, we will first provide an overview of operations management and the challenges that software technology companies face in this area. We will then discuss the critical role of a Head of Operations and the key competencies required for this position. We will also explore the common operational structures in software technology companies and the challenges that arise when communication and work coordination between departments are not optimal. Finally, we will use a test case scenario to demonstrate how a Head of Operations can identify and resolve complex operational issues to ensure the smooth running of the company.

II. Day-to-day operations of Software Technology Companies

Day-to-day operations refer to the routine tasks and processes that a company must perform on a regular basis to keep its business running smoothly. In software technology companies, these operations encompass a range of activities such as software/application development, quality assurance, project management, customer support, and other related tasks. Furthermore, successful coordination between the software/application development team and customer-facing teams is crucial for ensuring smooth operations and satisfying customer needs.

The evolution of day-to-day operations

Over time, the day-to-day operations of software technology companies have evolved, especially with the rise of new technologies and the increasing importance of digital transformation. Companies are now expected to deliver high-quality products and services while also ensuring a seamless customer experience.

This is where the role of the Head of Operations becomes crucial. A Head of Operations is responsible for overseeing the day-to-day operations of a company, ensuring that they are executed effectively and efficiently. This includes managing workflows, identifying and addressing operational inefficiencies, and ensuring that all departments are working together seamlessly.

How a Head of Operations ensures the success of day-to-day operations

To ensure the success of day-to-day operations, a Head of Operations must have a deep understanding of the company's goals, strategies, and resources. They must also be adept at managing teams, developing processes, and making data-driven decisions.

Some specific ways that a Head of Operations ensures the success of day-to-day operations in software technology companies include:

  • Developing and implementing processes: A Head of Operations must develop and implement processes that enable the company to meet its goals efficiently and effectively. This can include everything from software development processes to customer support processes.
  • Managing workflows: A Head of Operations must ensure that all workflows are functioning properly and that team members are working together seamlessly. They must also identify and address any bottlenecks or inefficiencies in the workflows.
  • Ensuring quality: Quality assurance is a critical aspect of day-to-day operations in software technology companies. A Head of Operations must ensure that quality standards are met across all processes and that customer satisfaction remains high.
  • Improving customer experience: In software technology companies, the customer experience is often closely tied to the day-to-day operations. A Head of Operations must ensure that all departments are working together to provide a seamless customer experience.

A successful Operations Head should possess several essential skills and qualities. These include:

·????????Strategic thinking is crucial for a Head of Operations to have a long-term vision and understanding of the company's goals, strategies, and resources. They must also have excellent problem-solving skills to identify and address any challenges that arise in day-to-day operations.

·????????Communication is another critical skill that a Head of Operations must possess. They must communicate effectively with all teams and departments, ensuring that everyone understands their roles and responsibilities. They must also foster open communication channels across all teams to encourage collaboration and problem-solving.

·????????Leadership is essential for a Head of Operations to provide guidance, direction, and motivation to teams. They must lead by example, demonstrating their commitment to excellence and ensuring that teams are working together effectively.

Data, metrics, and key performance indicators (KPIs) are critical tools that a Head of Operations can use to monitor and optimize day-to-day operations. They can analyze data and metrics to identify trends, patterns, and areas for improvement. KPIs can help them measure progress towards achieving specific goals and make data-driven decisions.

Overall, a successful Head of Operations plays a critical role in ensuring the success of day-to-day operations in software technology companies. By developing and implementing efficient processes, managing workflows, ensuring quality, and improving the customer experience, they can help the company achieve its goals and stay ahead of the competition.

III. The Need for a Head of Operations in Software Technology Companies

Software technology companies face unique challenges in their day-to-day operations due to the nature of their work. These challenges include coordinating multiple departments, managing complex workflows, ensuring quality standards are met, and providing excellent customer service. As the company grows, these challenges can become increasingly difficult to manage without proper leadership and coordination.

This is where a Head of Operations comes in. The role of a Head of Operations is to oversee the day-to-day operations of the company and ensure that all departments are working together efficiently and effectively towards the company's goals.

Factors that give rise to the need for a Head of Operations

Some of the factors that give rise to the need for a Head of Operations in software technology companies include:

  1. Managing complexity: In software technology companies, there are often many moving parts that need to be coordinated. This can include software development, quality assurance, project management, customer support, and more. A Head of Operations can help manage this complexity by developing and implementing processes that enable the company to meet its goals efficiently and effectively.
  2. Ensuring quality: Quality assurance is a critical aspect of day-to-day operations in software technology companies. A Head of Operations can help ensure that quality standards are met across all processes and that customer satisfaction remains high.
  3. Providing strategic direction: A Head of Operations can work with the company's leadership team to develop and execute strategies that drive long-term growth and success. This includes identifying opportunities for improvement, streamlining workflows, and optimizing resources.

How a Head of Operations enhances operational efficiency and effectiveness

By having a Head of Operations, software technology companies can enhance operational efficiency and effectiveness. A Head of Operations can improve coordination between departments, identify and address bottlenecks and inefficiencies in workflows, ensure quality standards are met, and improve the overall customer experience. They almost all the time use data, metrics, and key performance indicators (KPIs) to monitor and optimize day-to-day operations.

An integrator (or an Ops lead) can help ensure that all departments are working together efficiently and effectively towards the company's goals, providing strategic direction, and enhancing operational efficiency and effectiveness.

Type of Operational leaders

An Executor (Implementation Leader)

An Executor is an operational leader who plays a crucial role in implementing company strategies. While the CEO focuses on the overall vision and direction of the company, the Executor takes charge of day-to-day operations that make that vision a reality. Working closely with senior leaders, they ensure plans are executed effectively and efficiently. The role requires strong project management skills, attention to detail, and the ability to lead cross-functional teams. An Executor must also have a deep understanding of the company's goals and be able to translate them into specific objectives for the operational team. This involves strategic thinking and overcoming obstacles that arise during execution. Similar to a general leading an army, the Executor prepares the team to go into battle, motivating and inspiring them to achieve objectives. They are critical in turning a company's strategy into reality.

A Change Agent

An operational leader who is a change agent is brought in to spearhead a specific strategic imperative, such as a major organizational change, a planned rapid expansion, or a turnaround. This type of leader is expected to have unquestioned authority and commitment from the employees, and is responsible for ensuring that the project is executed effectively and efficiently. The top board of the company must show 100% backing and trust towards this leader throughout the entire project, and beyond. A successful change agent requires strong leadership skills, the ability to drive change, and the capacity to motivate employees towards a shared goal.

The Mentor: or one may say “The hand of the King”

A mentor is someone who has been brought in to guide an inexperienced CEO. They bring in diversity and tons of experience from multiple domains, offering far-sightedness and foresight. The type is someone who brings a wealth of experience and a diverse perspective to the table. They have likely had successful careers in multiple domains and have a far-sightedness that allows them to see beyond the day-to-day operations of the company. The mentor's role is to offer guidance, feedback, helping them to make strategic decisions and avoid common pitfalls.

In many cases, a mentor is like the "Hand of the King" ?(ref. Game of Thrones). The Hand is the second-in-command to the King and is trusted to make decisions in the King's absence. Similarly, a mentor can be seen as a trusted advisor who can make decisions and lead the company in the CEO's absence. The mentor role is typically created when a CEO lacks experience in certain areas, and the company needs someone to fill the gap. Mentors are usually brought in to provide guidance on strategic issues, such as business expansion, mergers and acquisitions, and product development. They are also responsible for day-to-day operations, ensuring that the company is running smoothly.

Some examples of successful mentor-CEO relationships include Steve Jobs and John Sculley at Apple, Eric Schmidt and Larry Page at Google, and Warren Buffett and Howard Buffett at Berkshire Hathaway.

The Other Half

The Other Half is a perspective where an operational leader, usually in the form of a COO, is hired to complement the CEO's expertise, style, knowledge base, or personality traits. This dynamic duo works as true partners, sharing the same room and responsibilities, but with complementary skill sets. For instance, if the CEO is a technology guru, the COO can handle the operational aspects of the business. Or, if the CEO is creative and aggressive, the COO can be the calm and balancing force. One such example is the partnership between Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon, and Jeff Wilke, the COO who helped build the company's logistics and fulfillment infrastructure. Another example is the partnership between Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, and JB Straubel, the former CTO and operational mastermind behind Tesla's electric vehicle technology. In both cases, the COOs played a critical role in building and scaling the companies, making them an essential part of the leadership team.

A Partner or Co-Leader

The Partner is a type of operational leader who usually works in co-leadership with the CEO. This leadership style is characterized by a close working relationship between the two leaders, often with shared office space, and the ability to complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. The Partner is different from The Other Half in that they work more closely with the CEO as a true partner, rather than serving as a complement to the CEO's skills and experience. This type of leadership is especially effective when the CEO and Partner have a strong rapport and are able to work together seamlessly towards a shared vision. The Partner must have a deep understanding of the company's strategy and goals, as well as the ability to execute on those goals in collaboration with the CEO. Ultimately, the success of this leadership style hinges on the ability of both leaders to communicate effectively and work towards a common purpose.

Others

Other types may be brought in for the Company’s face saving, to promote someone who is Next in Line for the CEO seat or saving the Most Valuable Player from loosing it to the company’s competitors.

IV. Common Structures in Software Technology Companies


Software technology companies are some of the most dynamic and rapidly-evolving industries in the world. With advancements in technology happening at lightning speeds, it's essential for these companies to have structures in place that allow them to stay ahead of the curve. In this article, we'll discuss the most common structures found in software technology companies, the communication gaps that often arise between departments, and the hazards of these communication gaps in customer-facing departments.

Overview of Common Structures

There are several common structures in software technology companies, including functional, divisional, and matrix structures.

  • Functional structures are the most common and are based on grouping employees by their skillset or function. In this structure, employees work under the guidance of a functional manager who oversees their work and performance. This structure is ideal for organizations that specialize in a specific area of technology.
  • Divisional structures are based on grouping employees by product or service lines. Each division operates as a separate unit and has its own team of employees and managers. This structure is ideal for organizations that offer multiple products or services.
  • Matrix structures combine the functional and divisional structures, allowing employees to work on multiple projects simultaneously. This structure allows for more collaboration and cross-functional communication between teams.

Challenges Between Departments

Apart from other smaller challenges, Communication gaps is the most common problem in software technology company, and they can have a significant impact on the overall success of the organization. These gaps occur when different departments or teams fail to communicate effectively with each other.

One of the main causes of communication gaps is a lack of understanding of the roles and responsibilities of each department. For example, the development team may not fully understand the requirements of the sales team, or the marketing team may not understand the technical limitations of the development team.

Another cause of communication gaps is a lack of transparency between departments. When departments work in silos, they may not share information with other teams, which can lead to misunderstandings and errors.

Hazards of Communication Gaps in Customer-Facing Departments

Communication gaps in customer-facing departments can have a severe impact on customer satisfaction and loyalty. When sales, marketing, and customer support teams don't communicate effectively with each other, it can lead to a disjointed customer experience.

For example, a customer may be promised a specific feature by the sales team, but the development team is unable to deliver it. This can lead to frustration and disappointment on the part of the customer, which can ultimately result in lost business.

Another hazard of communication gaps is that they can lead to customer support teams providing incomplete or incorrect information to customers. This can lead to further frustration and a negative impression of the company.

In the next section, we will use a real-life test case scenario to illustrate the operational challenges that can arise due to communication gaps and how the Operations Leader can address them. We will explore how effective communication strategies can be implemented to ensure that all departments work together seamlessly, resulting in enhanced customer experience and improved overall company performance.

V. Test Case Scenario: Addressing Communication Gaps in a Software Company

As an operations leader in various software technology companies, I have faced numerous operational challenges, particularly in the area of communication gaps between departments. One of the biggest problems that management faces is bringing about change in the team to tackle this issue, but often fails to address the root cause - lack of foresight and understanding of working relationships. I will share a real-world example using a Test Case addressing a common operational challenge and how an Operational Leader would tackle it.

Real-World Example (Test Case)

Consider a large software company providing an enterprise-level solution for service providers. The software is extensive, and large engineering teams work on both core and legacy functions that are still in production at many clients' environments. Other important departments include professional services teams that build custom solutions, technical support teams that support customers, customer success teams that ensure customer success, marketing teams that generate demand for the provided solution, and sales teams that promise and sell the solution, among others.

However, when a bug occurs in the software, the technical support team is contacted. This is where everything starts to fall apart. The support team has no knowledge of the issue or the faulty component. They quickly generate a ticket, and following the current service level agreement (SLA), the problem is escalated to the floor manager and then to the head of the support team. As time passes, they review the documentation and speak to their peers in the engineering department. No one has any idea about this new variant in the solution, and nobody knows whom to turn to for help, resulting in delays and frustration for the customer.

This, in turn, causes embarrassment and panic for the customer success teams, leading to blame games between the business solutions, project management, sales, technical support, engineering, and professional services teams.

It turns out that this particular solution was developed due to a commitment made by the sales team who had no idea that the engineering team would never be able to deliver it on time. To resolve this issue, the sales team made a special personal request to the business solutions team for assistance with the customer. While this may have seemed successful at the time for both teams, they were unaware that their actions had unintentionally violated several poorly implemented standard operating procedures.

Finally, when the problem reached a boiling point, the service level agreement with the customer was breached, resulting in a frustrated call from the customer to the CEO threatening millions worth of business.

How a Head of Operations Would Tackle the Challenge

To address the challenge of communication gaps between departments, the Head of Operations would take decisive actions to ensure that this is not a repeat mistake and would enhance the overall customer experience. One such action would be to improve the software release process. They would ensure that anything released to the customer goes through a proper channel and has all the required release documentation, training documentation, and more.

The Head of Operations would work to reduce the knowledge gap between teams. This would involve providing tech support teams with more training and knowledge sharing on the product from engineering, and sharing knowledge of the customer's production environment with the Business Solutions teams. The Head of Operations would also focus on creating new sets of SOPs and re-aligning the company direction by re-defining the core mission of the company.

The company's SOPs would need to be shifted so that the Tech Support team is treated as the heart of the company, and the company's mindset should shift to treating the Tech Support team as internal customers. This approach helps ensure that they have the necessary tools and information to resolve issues quickly, efficiently and the required backing from the whole company when it comes to providing world-class support to the valued customers.

Furthermore, to help bridge the communication gaps between departments, each department should have a rolling schedule to work for a few weeks under the Tech Support department. This will help them understand how Tech Support works, how customers use the enterprise solution, and how to handle customer issues in times of crisis. This will also help all departments understand the importance of Tech Support and the role they play in keeping customers satisfied.

In conclusion, communication gaps between departments can cause significant operational challenges for software technology companies. However, by understanding the problem, mapping it out, and addressing the root cause of the issue, the Head of Operations would be able to bring about change and reduce the communication gaps between departments. Providing Tech Support with proper structures and treating them as internal customers would help them handle customer issues more efficiently. Additionally, working under Tech Support for a few weeks can help other departments understand the importance of Tech Support and the role they play in ensuring customer satisfaction. As a result of the new alignment and the efforts done by all of the related departments, the company would be able to provide 5-star support and beat the company's competition in the market.

VI. Key Skills and Qualities of a Successful Head of Operations

A successful Operations Management Leader requires a range of essential skills and qualities that enable them to effectively manage the day-to-day operations of a company, while also contributing to its long-term success.

One of the most important skills for a Head of Operations is the ability to think strategically and develop a clear vision for the organization. This involves being able to anticipate industry trends and changes, and identifying opportunities for growth and innovation. A visionary Head of Operations is also able to develop a long-term plan and streamline the organization towards achieving the company's mission and vision.

In addition to strategic thinking, a successful Head of Operations must possess excellent communication and leadership skills. They must be able to effectively communicate the company's vision and goals to employees at all levels of the organization, and inspire them to work towards achieving these objectives. They should also be able to manage and motivate teams, while also fostering a positive and collaborative workplace culture.

Another important quality of a successful Head of Operations is strong decision-making skills. They must be able to make informed decisions quickly and efficiently, while also being able to evaluate risks and assess potential outcomes. A successful Head of Operations must be able to balance the need for short-term results with the long-term goals of the company, and make decisions that align with the organization's overall strategy.

Effective problem-solving skills are also essential for a Head of Operations. They must be able to identify and resolve operational issues, and find innovative solutions to challenges that arise. This requires a high degree of analytical thinking and the ability to evaluate complex data and information.

Overall, the skills and qualities of a successful Head of Operations are critical for the long-term success of a company. A visionary and strategic Operations Leader can help an organization to position itself for growth and success in the future, while strong leadership, decision-making, and problem-solving skills can help to drive operational efficiency and productivity. By possessing these skills and qualities, a Head of Operations can contribute to the overall success of the company and help it to achieve its mission and vision.

VII. Is there a difference between the Strategic Leadership and Operations Leadership

Operational leadership and strategic leadership may sound like two distinct approaches to managing an organization, but they are often interconnected and interdependent. Operational leadership focuses on the day-to-day management of an organization and the execution of specific tasks and projects. On the other hand, strategic leadership involves setting long-term goals and developing plans and strategies to achieve them.

Operational leaders are responsible for overseeing the execution of the organization's operations, ensuring that processes and procedures are followed, and monitoring performance to ensure that goals and targets are being met. They are typically concerned with optimizing efficiency and improving productivity, often by streamlining processes and cutting costs. This is the foundation for setting long-term goals and organization's overall direction.

Strategic leaders, on the other hand, are responsible for developing the organization's overall direction and long-term goals. They assess market trends, anticipate changes in the industry, and develop plans to position the organization for success in the future. Strategic leaders often focus on growth and expansion, identifying new opportunities and developing innovative products and services to meet the needs of the market. These goals can only be planned and achieved if the current operations are aligned with them.

As you can see that these two approaches may seem different, they are actually interdependent. Operational leaders need to understand the organization's long-term goals and objectives to ensure that their day-to-day activities align with them. Conversely, strategic leaders need to be aware of the operational details of the organization to ensure that their plans are realistic and achievable.

In fact, the best operations management leaders are also strategic thinkers who balance the short-term and long-term needs of the organization. They understand the importance of executing day-to-day tasks effectively while also keeping an eye on the big picture and making decisions that will position the organization for long-term success. They are able to identify opportunities for growth and improvement while also ensuring that the organization's operations are running smoothly and efficiently.

In my personal opinion, If the strategic leadership role and operational management role are separated, it may lead to several challenges for an organization.

Firstly, there can be a lack of alignment between the strategic goals of the organization and the day-to-day operations. Without a clear understanding of the overall strategic direction, operational leaders may struggle to make decisions that support the long-term goals of the company.

Secondly, there may be a lack of communication and collaboration between the strategic leaders and operational managers. This can lead to a disconnect between the high-level vision and the actual implementation on the ground.

Thirdly, there may be conflicting priorities and decision-making between the strategic leaders and operational managers. Without a unified understanding of the company's goals and priorities, there may be disagreements about how to allocate resources and prioritize initiatives.

Finally, there may be a lack of accountability for the overall success of the company. If strategic leaders are solely focused on long-term planning and operational managers are solely focused on day-to-day operations, it can be difficult to hold anyone accountable for the overall success of the organization.

Once again, in my opinion it is best if both the strategic leadership and operational management roles are held by the same person, although I understand that in very large corporations, this can be difficult to achieve. However, aligning these two roles can be a significant challenge for an organization.

The best operations management leaders are also strategic thinkers who can balance short-term and long-term needs, ensuring that operational decisions align with the overall strategic direction of the organization. However, it is also important to recognize that strategic leadership is typically taken up by the CEO, while implementation is taken up by the operations leader.

In conclusion, while strategic leadership and operational management are distinct roles, they are closely interconnected and both are essential for the success of an organization. Separating these roles can lead to challenges, and it is best if the operations management leader is also a strategic long-term thinker. Nonetheless, in large corporations, it may be difficult to find individuals with the skills and capacity to effectively perform both roles, which can create challenges. Hunting for one and finding one may bring vertical growth.

VIII. Conclusion

The Head of Operations in a software technology company is like the nucleus of the organization. They are the hand of the king, the general to the army, and the integrator of all the different functions. With their integrator abilities, they bring together the various departments and teams, ensuring that everyone is aligned with the company's vision and mission.

Operations specialists are the process builders, mappers, and developers. They need process development, building integration, and engineering skills to design and implement efficient and effective processes. These processes are critical for the success of the company as they enable the organization to scale and grow.

Without the Ops leader, there is a risk of no vision on the other side of the table where the engineers are at work. The integrator/ ops head makes the process and includes the data to get it. The operations team makes decisions based on numbers and KPIs, which helps the organization to optimize its performance.

In conclusion, the Head of Operations is a critical role in a software technology company. They play a vital role in integrating different functions, building and mapping processes, and making decisions based on numbers and KPIs. Without them, there is a risk of lack of alignment and vision, which can negatively impact the company's long-term success. Therefore, it is essential to have a skilled and competent Head of Operations who can lead and drive the organization towards its goals.

Quick Tip for HR while selecting the right leader or Individuals looking to follow this path

Key points of an effective Operations Leader

When it comes to selecting the right leader for a role or for individuals looking to follow this path, there are a few things to keep in mind. While education is important, it's not the only factor to consider. Leaders can come from all types of backgrounds, and it's important to look for individuals who have relevant experience, whether that's in the tech industry or another related field.

One key factor to consider is real-world experience. Look for individuals who have faced different challenges in different environments and situations. This shows that they have the adaptability and resilience to tackle whatever obstacles may come their way in a leadership role.

Another important skill to look for is situational awareness. This means the ability to understand how different parts of an organization work together to achieve a common goal. Look for someone who has experience in this area and has used it to make bold, visionary decisions that may not always be obvious at first.

In addition to the above, it's crucial to select an individual who is a team player and has a personality that commands respect and attention. The individual should be able to inspire and motivate others to work towards a common goal, and possess excellent communication and interpersonal skills to effectively communicate with team members, stakeholders, and clients. Keep in mind that a successful leader is someone who can not only lead but also collaborate and work effectively with others.

In summary, when selecting a leader for a role or looking to follow this path, focus on relevant experience, real-world challenges, and situational awareness. These factors can help you identify individuals who have the skills and qualities necessary to succeed in a leadership role.

My advice for HR: Include DISC Profiling

Using DISC profiling to select an Operations Leader can be a helpful tool in identifying candidates who have the right personality traits for the role. The DISC assessment measures an individual's Dominance, Influence, Steadiness, and Conscientiousness.

For an Operations Leader, it's important to look for someone who scores high in Conscientiousness and Steadiness, as they tend to be detail-oriented and focused on accuracy, which is critical in operations. They should also have a good level of Dominance and Influence, as they need to be able to make decisions and communicate effectively with different stakeholders.

By using DISC profiling, HR can screen candidates for these traits and identify those who are likely to be a good fit for the Operations Leader role. However, it's important to note that DISC profiling should be used in conjunction with other selection tools and not be the sole factor in the decision-making process.

Additionally, it's important to consider the candidate's relevant experience, real-world challenges, situational awareness, team player attitude, and the ability to earn respect from others. All of these factors, combined with DISC profiling, can help ensure that the right Operations Leader is selected for the role.


Thank you so much for taking the time to read this blog. I hope you found it informative and helpful. If you have any questions or suggestions about the blog, please do not hesitate to contact me. I would love to hear from you.

Danish Aziz Awan

CEO - Eigen Recruitment - B2B

1 年

This is an excellent article Shoeb. While reading through this, I could relate to every line. Hand of the king. ?? No doubt there. Execution is everything, but that is only possible if you're a people's person, and a great problem solver. Thank you writing this detailed article! Startups, organizations or corporations, I believe everyone can relate to this.

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