How to Conquer Imposter Syndrome in Your Job Search and Career

Imposter syndrome is a real and pervasive problem. It’s associated with burnout, depression and anxiety, and it holds us back from reaching our full potential and achieving career satisfaction. So, what can we do to conquer our imposter syndrome at work?

On this episode of Get Hired, LinkedIn News Editor Andrew Seaman speaks with Deesha Dyer , former White House social secretary and author of the book Undiplomatic: How My Attitude Created the Best Kind of Trouble. Deesha discusses her career path from hip hop reporter to White House intern to social secretary for the Obama administration, and shares how she overcame her own feelings of imposter syndrome at work. She also offers advice on practicing self-compassion, challenging negative thoughts and seeking support.

A transcript of the conversation is below. You can listen to the episode above or on Apple Podcasts by clicking here.

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TRANSCRIPT: How to Conquer Imposter Syndrome in Your Job Search and Career

at some point in our careers. But since the concept was first introduced by a pair of psychologists in the late 1970s, there's been a ton of research on the topic and how to overcome it. While not an actual syndrome or clinical diagnosis, imposter syndrome is a real problem. It's associated with burnout and depression, and it prevents us from reaching our full potential in a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way. So how can we quiet that voice in our heads that tells us we aren't good enough or up to the challenge? On today's show, we're talking all about imposter syndrome and how to conquer it in the context of work. So don't go away, we'll be right back after the break.

From LinkedIn News, this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's senior managing editor for jobs and career development, bringing new conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.?

Joining me is Deesha Dyer, the former social secretary for the Obama administration. She recently published a memoir called Undiplomatic: How My Attitude Created the Best Kind of Trouble. And in it she writes about how she landed one of the most competitive jobs in politics, White House social secretary, without credentials or connections, only to be held back by her own self-doubt. For years, Deesha struggled with imposter syndrome on the job, but she did eventually overcome it and she's joining me today to share how she did that. Here's Deesha.

Deesha Dyer: So Undiplomatic is my first book and it is really about my rise in the White House, the Obama White House, from my intern days in 2009. I was 31 years old in community college and just took a chance on a White House internship, and then was hired full-time, got promoted in several roles, until then I became the social secretary in charge of all the parties. And that in itself is a very attractive thing, but the whole time that I was there, I felt that I wasn't qualified, I wasn't deserving. I think I have what I call chronic imposter syndrome. And so for me, I wanted to write the book to make it real for people, like humanize it, this is the thing that does happen.

You do feel, even if you got the position, sometimes you don't deserve it. And for me, being at the White House and getting all these prominent roles, I think people thought, "Oh, she's so confident and she's so sure of herself," but I wasn't the entire time, but it was more of just me questioning why they choose me. And that kind of ruining my experience, spending so much time thinking about that. And so the book in itself, I wanted to not have it be a how-to. So I purposely was like, "Let me infuse lessons within these fun White House stories." So now is a great time because imposter syndrome, mental health in the workplace, is a big conversation. I hear nonstop from everyone, from as young as 10 to college, Ivy League, to professional workers that they have imposter syndrome. And so I'm hoping that my book will help motivate them, and it was time, it was time for me to put my story onto some pages.

Andrew: That's great. And also for people who are listening who don't know, a White House internship is very hard to get, and typically when you meet an intern, it's like, oh, my mom's the national security advisor or something like that.

Deesha: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Andrew: So just getting the internship is incredible, but then in one administration to go from intern to social secretary, which for people who don't know is like you're running the place.

Deesha: Yes.

Andrew: So let's start at the beginning because you were in Philly, you were writing freelance articles, and I think in the book you basically say, "Hey listen," you joked to your conservative boss I think, that, "I'm going to go work for the White House."

Deesha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: What was it that made you actually do that and just say, "Let me try."

Deesha: I think for me, part of it was when Barack Obama came on the scene around 2007, I was enamored, just like so many other people were in the country of this man, a black man who was like, "I'm going to be president." And I thought, "That's really nice and that's kind of adorable. He has these dreams." But we had never seen a black president before. But there was something about him that was magical in the sense of he was talking about community things and he was talking about politics in a way that I could understand.

So as I started to pay attention, like many people did, right? And then as he was going along, I kept in my head saying, "I'm this big community advocate in Philadelphia. I do all these things. Why wouldn't they want somebody like me?" But of course I don't have the other half, which is the education or the pedigree or as you mentioned, the connections. I didn't know anyone, but I really thought about, I'm curious enough to see if I can get it. I was really motivated by his campaign, but also I'm just going to try and see and if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out.

Andrew: Well, and also I think a lot of people think is you're going to go work for the White House. It's the big time and stuff, which it is, but also you're not getting paid a ton of money. And even as a government official for that important work, you get paid decent, but you're also in a big city and stuff like that. So you're uprooting your life. You're going from Philly to D.C., you're not taking a salary.

Deesha: Nope.

Andrew: So it's a risk.

Deesha: It's definitely a risk. And I could see how people, especially people that can't afford to do a non-paid internship, they don't apply because you have to figure out your housing, then you got to eat. They give you money to get back and forth to work.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Deesha: And you're just like, "Great." Then what I try to teach and talk to, especially people now, is just, just apply. Just apply and try it, because what happened with me is I applied, I got it. I went down to D.C. to try to get a job somewhere at nighttime, and then the job that I was leaving to go to the White House ended up raising and giving me $14,000. I had no idea that $14,000 was coming. So I try to tell people now just apply and see what happens, and then let's work out the money on the back end.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like that too, and I did internships in D.C. where I didn't get paid, so I had to take a little loan out to get housing down there and stuff.

Deesha: Yeah, that's real.

Andrew: Yeah.

Deesha: Yeah, it's real.

Andrew: And when you got to D.C. and you did the internship, what's your advice for interns to hit the ground running? Because especially in the White House, there are a lot of interns, there is a huge infrastructure. What's your advice to them to really just nail the internship?

Deesha: What I would say is that you have to remember, especially at the White House, although everyone's different, everyone comes with the same mold of political science. I have a blue or black suit. Everything's clean and tailored. And so I tell people all the time, try to be yourself in a space. What is it you like to do? For me, I loved hip hop music. I love hip hop culture. That's what I wrote my essay on. So I made sure that I always showed up as a cultured person. I never tried to dumb myself down, and that's what I think got the attention of a lot of people at the White House. I was a little bit different, not only older, but just different.

So I think the advice I would give is don't lose your individuality. Go in there and show up as yourself and also don't think you need to know it all. You're an intern. I think that too many times, I saw this at the White House, there'd be interns who would just pretend they knew everything. And I'm like, "If you don't know, it's okay. You're an intern. It's a learning experience. You're here to learn. You're here to contribute." So just remembering that, also meet people. I was very guarded. I was very like, "Who are these people? I'm not like them. I don't want to network," and I wish I would have a little bit more. So those are some advice I think I would give.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think this transitions into this. You have a chapter, I think, about the cost of being yourself.

Deesha: Yeah.

Andrew: And it's not always easy to be yourself. You obviously speak in the book about code-switching and that's something that I authentically cannot comment on, but can you tell us how you pushed through that? Because I completely agree that being an individual, standing out, that's how you get recognized.

Deesha: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: So how do you push through even those hardships?

Deesha: I say this with the privilege of I'm okay losing a job. A lot of people don't have that, so a lot of people have to code-switch for survival to keep their job. But I think that for me, when I tried code-switching, it seemed like I was a different person. I didn't recognize myself. I didn't sound okay. I was always paranoid. It lasted maybe for two or three days and I was like, "I can't act like this." That's not who I am at my core. I am authentically myself, and so when it comes to code-switching or even authenticity, we don't talk about the consequence of being yourself. And the consequence is, people are not going to like you sometimes, people will gossip about you, you may be left out of the happy hour or all of these things that we want to belong. We love belonging, but then there's this part, if belonging means sacrificing who I am, then I have to be okay with not belonging.

I was willing to let all that happen to me because I was like, I had a very up and down life, so to me, there was almost nothing that somebody could do that was worse than some other things I had been through. And I was like, "I want to look at myself at night." I have all these mentees and these young women who look up to me, and young men, and they speak to me like, you're so authentic. So really get comfortable and love yourself enough, and find your people. You will find your people. It wasn't this group of people, but I found a whole different group of people that were so amazing and loved me for myself.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I think driving home the idea of being yourself is important because I've been in the situation where, especially in D.C. because everyone, like you said, is in those blue or black suits and they all like, oh, my parents did this or I worked at senator's office. So you try and fit in and then, honestly, you just blend in. It sounds like from your experience, it was bringing your background and even the social secretary position is obviously huge, does so many things, but you also throw parties.

Deesha: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: So your background in hip-hop, your idea of saying, "Hey, let's bring these people together." That is what made you special in that role, right?

Deesha: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. I have been given this huge, immense honor and privilege of being in this role. If the president and first lady say, "We're going to have an event, we would like music." I'm like, "Oh, I know somebody who plays acoustic guitar and welcome people in with an acoustic guitar." Think how amazing that person will feel. They played the White House, this musician who's been a musician forever, and they get to do that and they get to say, "I played at the White House." Maybe that gets some more gigs. That power of what I could do, not only bringing the community in, but how I could change that person's life, and so I think that for me, I thrived off of that.

Andrew: It's incredible.

Deesha: Yeah.

Andrew: And then I guess for people who maybe are afraid to go for a job or even when they get to a job about, oh god, how do I do this? Because the thing that I assume, because I've only worked in D.C. from the outside, reporting, there's really no playbook because every event is different. When you throw a state dinner, I assume it's a ton of different variables depending on who the politician is or who the prime minister is, foreign news. So what would your advice be to people who are thrown into things where it's like, okay, I don't think there's a playbook or I don't know if I have the skills yet to do something like that.

Deesha: Yeah, like me being thrown into the Pope visit and I was like, "Excuse me." I felt like I had to go to Catholic Church because I was like, "I need to learn." But I think, what I would say, is we don't give ourselves enough compassion for when we do something new. When you do something new, whether it is trying a new hobby or going to a new job, you are not going to know what you're doing because it's new. That is the whole thing about life. We do things and then we go, you have the skills to learn that industry. You have the skills to put it together, and that's why you're hired, and you're qualified for that. But I think that we need to give ourselves more grace of when you do something new, regardless of what it is, you're not going to get it right. You're not going to know how to do it. I don't know about you, but I've never welcomed a Pope into a home. I've never done that before.

I've never worked for a president and first lady. Therefore, I'm just like, "Let me not lean on what I don't know how to do and my mistakes and be like, okay, this is not home." This is not a hip hop party, but I'm still welcoming people in. I'm still figuring out the food. I'm still figuring out [inaudible 00:12:52] run a show. So those critical skills that I have in order to put something together, I apply to the White House, right? And I think that that's what people have to lean into. What are the fundamental skills? What are the fundamental things that you're experiencing that you know how to do? And you could do them well. You just have to learn the environment in which now you're doing it, the players, and the protocols, and diplomacy. But I think that my advice is to have grace with yourself and to lean into those things. And if you mess something up in the workspace, then you mess it up and you're just like, "Okay, I'll do it better next time, or I'll figure out where I messed up." But that's just going to happen.

Andrew: We'll be right back with Deesha Dyer.?

Andrew: And we're back with Deesha Dyer, former White House social secretary and author of Undiplomatic.?

Also, I assume the climate is important because you had a mandate from the Obamas to say, "Listen, we're going to do things a little bit differently. We want to open this place up." And obviously you got to experience the White House from the ground up when you were an intern and you started progressing. And then the last two years I think they were like, "Let's just bust this open."

Deesha: Yes.

Andrew: So you also had an environment and that's also what drew you there. Would your advice be to say, find that environment where you're like, "I want to be part of that."?

Deesha: Yes, definitely. Find something that piques your curiosity. When I went to the White House, I was just curious. All those promotions that I got, yes, I was a good worker, but it definitely wasn't pay, so there's that. It was more of just, I'm so curious about this. I was an intern, then I got hired to manage the interns and the same department did travel in hotels, and I was like, my dream was somebody just pay me to travel. And that was back in the day before we had people getting paid to travel. And when I found out there was a role that travels with the president and first lady, and does their hotels, and they're saying in five star hotels. So I'm just like, "That means this is my dream."

So it was a curiosity for me, but I also really love to be like, this is a great job, let me try this. And then being deputy social secretary, oh, that's the person that can bring in anybody that they want. Oh, I won't go to that department. So it was also, so I think find the environment also that piques your curiosity in a way that always keeps you entertained and keeps you interested. Once you go into a role, and it's like... Again, I had no money, so different people, but once you go into a role and you get bored, that's going to affect your performance.

Andrew: And then you talk about imposter syndrome, I think right out of the gate in the book, and it's a theme that carries through. So can you tell us a little bit about your view on imposter syndrome? Because I think you do a really nice job, especially, I think it's in the introduction about, listen, imposter syndrome is definitely a thing, but also it can be weaponized too.

Deesha: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. So for me, it was an evolution. Imposter syndrome used to be this really heavy weight of I don't have enough education, I don't look the same as everyone else. I don't have the pedigree and that's my fault. I'm so down on myself for not having that. I'm not qualified because I don't have these things, right? And then I thought about it and I was just like, "Wait a minute. This seems like a scam a little bit." Right, this seems like a thing that is kept alive by oppression, by microaggressions, and bias, and so many other things where people, I feel, especially being a black woman, people are just like, we can't outwardly tell you that you're not qualified, but we can talk about how this memo is not very well written or are you wearing that? They can say those things. And I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, yes. I can't really talk. I can't really write."

The next thing you know, it's back on me. And so now I'm thinking to myself, "This thing has been kept alive, which holds us from our power, holds us from feeling like we're great." Obviously I was qualified for that role or these two powerful people wouldn't have chose me for it, regardless of my nose ring, regardless of my hoops, regardless of how I talk. And so I take people through the evolution of that. I didn't want to give an illusion that I went to the White House, it was all cured. You don't have to get a big job. And so for me, that's where I am with imposter syndrome now, is like, this is a scam. This is like, y'all are really doing a number on us. And in music, it's historically oppressed people, from LGBTQ, to black people, to disabled people. It's like, that's the people that I feel like have imposter syndrome the most.

Andrew: Yeah, I think the thing that really spoke to me is, when you were doing the application or something with your predecessor, and every time you would bring up something about the op-ed you wrote about an abortion, your eviction, or bad credit, or whatever, you were almost hoping, does this disqualify me?

Deesha: Yes.

Andrew: Because it's almost like you want them to rule you out so you don't rule yourself out.

Deesha: Yes. Yes. It's psyching yourself out first, because for me, imposter syndrome is my normal. So I wasn't depressed, I wasn't down. It was like, this is what it is. I'm not qualified, I'm not deserving. I'm not worthy, and I really did on the application, I really did look for things like, is it my age? Is it my school? I guess I'm going to apply. But I was waiting for that other shoe to drop. I was talking to my therapist, I feel great when I can validate my own imposter syndrome. I'm like, "See, I told you. I didn't get that job. I told you I wasn't qualified." He's like, "Just somebody else got the job. It doesn't mean..." You know what I mean? So I think that I was looking to feel better about myself by being validated.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah and also, I guess what is your trick? Because even now, I think you talk, after the White House, getting a call from Harvard and stuff like that, and you're sort of like, "Who? Me?" And I know I have to do that to myself too, but what is your tip for pushing through? Because usually what I tell myself is, what we talked about earlier, is everyone's kind of faking it at all times. So maybe I'll just fake it for a little bit.

Deesha: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What I do to push through is, number one, I'm going to be honest and say that a lot of times I haven't had a choice. There is no trust fund, there is no background. If I don't figure it out, I'm not going to be able to eat and live, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Deesha: And so I think that that's one thing. I think the other thing, what I tell myself now is, we're not faking it. We know what we're doing. We know how to do it. I'm qualified for this. And I think that I give myself that pep talk because if I am not confident in who I am anymore, no one else will be either, right? And so I think for me, I push through by being like, "I got here based off of who I am." It was just like, you are community minded, you are dedicated to people. You will do what you need to do for people. You will fight. I'm a fighter like no other. I will fight. And all of those things are just as strong to me as somebody who has a degree from Harvard. You have your special skill set.

So I think I remember, in the times where I feel like that and I have to push through was like, I'm coming with something that you don't come with. You are coming with something that I don't come with, right? And that's just human life, right? But together we make this collective to make something happen. And so now I give myself the opposite pep talk, walk in the room and be like, "Oh, yeah, I have something that none of y'all have. I got what I got. You got what you got." And so I think that when we look at it from its perspective of not comparing ourselves, and we look at perspective of what I bring to the table is valuable because no one else does that, that kind of makes you feel like, "Oh, okay, now I'm here because I'm contributing, right?" So I think when we take the comparison out and be like, "We all bring something that's going to make it dope, so let's go." That's how I push through really.

Andrew: It's fantastic, and I guess the thing about any job in the White House with a few exceptions is, they come to an end, they're finite. Sometimes they end at the end of administration or people last a few years. You basically had to turn over your job and to people who maybe were not willing, obviously it was an interesting transition. And this is something I don't get to touch on much on this podcast, but how did you leave your job? How did you mentally do that to be like, "I'm giving this up to move on to something else," and frankly kind of an unknown thing.

Deesha: Yeah, very unknown.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Deesha: So I would say that, for me, that was a hard time. It was a hard time from obviously the election and then until we did the transition of power. And for me, I was so exhausted, mentally, physically, spiritually, I was exhausted. So what I compare it to is when you run a marathon for eight years and then all of a sudden you hit a wall. There's no finish line, there's nobody cheering for you. You're just like, you hit a wall and you're like, "Okay, well, I guess I'll go home." That's literally how it was. It was like, I guess I'm going home with my one phone, and so I had nowhere to go. I ain't got no job, [inaudible 00:21:39] apply for unemployment. But I think that for me, I knew that I did what I came there to do. The day that we did the transition of power on the inauguration, I woke up because I spent the night there, the night before, or I didn't feel like we belonged there anymore. I just feel like we did what we had to do and it was time to go.

So whoever would've won, I would've left. The job was coming to an end. But I also am very much a person who believes in refreshing and renewing. So I was like, I think mentally what was hard, you go from being on this big job where you know insider things, and you're invited to all these parties, and then all of a sudden, all that just stops. And so for me, I was very thankful that I was older when I started the White House, and that I kept a sense of community, and kept a sense of normalcy with my family or volunteering, because I didn't put all my worth in the job. So it was different for me to be like, "Okay, well, it's over." It was hard, but at the same time, I experienced all this stuff and people being like, "You changed my life." So mentally I think it was just taking some time to let my mind rest from two phones a day, and national emergencies, and everything else.

Andrew: Before I let you go, I guess the one question I have is, there's so many people who are listening to this and say, "I don't really know what's next for me." Maybe they've been laid off, maybe they've been let go and you've been faced with this. What is your advice when you enter that unknown and go, "Okay, what am I going to do?"

Deesha: Yeah, it depends on your financial situation, but this is what I say, don't think there's anything wrong with unemployment, and nor do I think there's anything wrong with networking at any age, and nor do I think there's anything wrong with taking a job that's a little bit of a lower pay grade if you have to. And I think that a lot of times there is so much pressure on success, and I had a job that was $200,000 and now I can't get one of those. So now I'm looking at $90,000. While that is definitely a bruise to the ego, and I would understand, there is no shame. So I think that my number one advice is, let go of the shame and guilt, I'd say to let that go because that'll really eat you up, right?

The other thing I say is, network, talk to people. Someone very close to me was out of a job for a while. He got a job coach and they said, "Find people in the industry, and hit them up on LinkedIn, and ask whatever," and he's had these great conversations and meeting people. You never know the encounter, right? But I think that the other thing really is just, don't take it as a hit on your worth. Don't take it as a hit on who you are as a person. You are still a wonderful person with these amazing qualities and will bring... You're a team player, and you have talent, just right now, there's no place for that that you're seeing, but that doesn't erase all that you've done. And I want people to understand that because so many people are getting laid off, and so many people are unemployed, and they take it so hard because work is their life or work is how they get their purpose, but remember that you are a whole person.

So just make sure, again, it comes back to mental health and making sure you're taking care of yourself in those times too. And I know it's exhausting and hard to put yourself out there, but I've had to do it. I want people to know that after I had this great job, I still didn't get this other amazing job that I wanted, and I wanted that job hardcore. And I was like, "This is going to be great." And they were like, "Sorry, we're going with another candidate." Just make sure you understand your worth, your value, and how wonderful you are, even if there's no home for that right now in somebody's job.

Andrew: Yeah, and also, I really respect what you said about take unemployment. Especially in the United States, that's your money. You paid it in. And also, if you need to take a bridge job, the key is to not stop pushing, take the time you need, but also that doesn't have to be your final stop.

Deesha: A hundred percent. It doesn't, and also I think about a person close to me and he does night work, and he does part-time jobs, and he's met so many people and it's brought him more opportunity. I'm a big person of opportunity where you don't know what's coming.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Deesha: You have no idea who the person you met two years ago thought of you for a job today, and you're like, "Oh." So it's just like you have to have trust and faith in what's going to happen and who you are as a person. So, yeah.

Andrew: Thank you so much, Deesha.

Deesha: No, of course.?

Andrew: I so enjoyed this conversation and also your book.

Deesha: Thank you so much.

Andrew: That was Deesha Dyer, former White House social secretary and author of Undiplomatic. If you're leading today's conversation with a new learning to apply to your job search or career, I'd like to invite you to write about it in a review on Apple Podcast. Our team really enjoys reading what you've learned from our shows, plus it helps other people discover our community. Speaking of community, remember that we're always here, backing you up and cheering you on. Connect with me, Andrew Seaman and the Get Hired community on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. In fact, subscribe to my weekly newsletter that's called, you guessed it, Get Hired, to get even more information delivered to you every week. You can find those links in the show notes. And of course, don't forget to click the follow or subscribe button to get our podcast delivered to you every Wednesday, because we'll be continuing these conversations on the next episode, right here, wherever you like to listen.

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. This episode was produced by Alexis Ramdaou and Grace Rubin. Asaf Gidron engineered our show. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Dave Pond is head of news production. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Courtney Coupe is the head of original programming for LinkedIn. Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn, and I'm Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.