GOING LEGIT AND LEGALLY PROTECTING YOUR HUSTLE WITH SARAH KORNBLET WALDBUESSER

Today, I am so thrilled to introduce you to my attorney because one of the biggest questions I get in coaching programs and, from those of you that work with me privately is:

Ruby - who is your attorney? Who do you work with, with all things contracts and trademarks?

And so, I'm, so excited to do an interview with my attorney Sarah who is also the founder of Destination Legal! So, welcome Sarah!

Thank you so much for having me Ruby. So happy to be here!

I've got so many questions for you today. Some mainly selfishly for me (and I'm sure everyone reading will find it really useful), but also just so interested to ask you questions from my community.

And, all that good stuff around how to set up particularly a coaching business in a way that you feel really safe and protected from a legal standpoint.

But first let's talk a little bit about you and how you became an attorney. Walk us through your journey. We love the career story here!

Yeah, absolutely. And mine has definitely not been a straight road that's for sure. You know, I have had this huge travel bug and I knew I wanted flexibility in whatever career I chose and when I was in college (I'm aging myself), but that was back in the late 1990s, early 2000s when it was still kind of normal to just have a job for 40-50 years and retire. It's not so much that way now, but I couldn't see myself doing anything for that long. And so when I thought about law school, it kind of seems like - what can go wrong? There's a lot of flexibility there. I've always wanted to help people and I love school. So it just kind of felt like a natural step. There aren't attorneys in my family or anything like that. It just sort of felt like the right path.

I quickly realized after law school while I was working in a midsize firm in Washington, DC, that I didn't want to be a lawyer (or so I thought). What I realize now is that I didn't want to be a partner in a law firm, in an office, billing 15 minute increments for 80 hours a week.

That did not sound appealing to me at all. So I started looking around for other careers and other options. I thought about the Peace Corps, I really was interested in helping women internationally and so I kind of stumbled into public health and global public health and international legal issues around disease surveillance. It's this really interesting area. And I ended up working for a think tank in a university in DC.

By all intents and purposes, I had my dream job because I was traveling. I was helping people, but yet I was still supremely unhappy. I was stuck in a windowless office for eight months of the year, even if I was getting to travel to Africa and the middle East and Asia, it was still traveling for work. It was still traveling while not being able to do really what I wanted to do.

I'm sure like so many of us, I just had a moment where I was just like - this isn't it. I'm not happy. What can I do?

And that's when the soul searching comes in and it was through Googling things like 'work while you travel', 'travel while you work' that I stumbled upon online business. And this was about eight years ago, when things were really starting in terms of the laptop lifestyle.

I found these two guys who had a podcast called The Tropical MBA and I would listen to it every day to and from work and basically they talked about building businesses online that you can run from your laptop. A couple months into that, they were offering a two week course on an island in the Philippines. So I was like, this is it this is the next step for me.

I quit my job. I cashed in my 401k and I went to the Philippines for two weeks to learn how to start an online business.

During that time I started my first legal business called The Bootstrap Lawyer. And it only lasted for six months but that was the first iteration of what later became Destination Legal.

Sarah, I have the biggest smile on my face! It's a look of awe and resonance. Oh my gosh, you go girl, you just quit your job and went to the Philippines. That is amazing!

It wasn't all sunny and roses! Four months later I was back living with my parents. I wasn't making any money, I didn't know what I was gonna do and they wanted me to get a real job. So I placated them. I started applying but on the side I was still building my business.

I started doing some consulting and about six to seven months after being there I decided that if I wanted to have a business and travel with digital nomads. I needed to go and be around them. So I saved up enough and I knew I had some income coming in from consulting and I bought a one way ticket to Thailand.

So was this the start of your year and a half of being a digital nomad?

Yes, exactly.

And was this around the same time that you started Destination Legal?

No. Interestingly, I really fought being an attorney online for a while and there were a couple of reasons for that. One was I didn't like being a lawyer at a firm so I was like, how could I possibly enjoy it for myself? Secondly, this was back in 2014 or so and running a virtual law firm where you're offering legal services online was still very new. There were only a handful of attorneys doing it. There's obviously legal issues around how you practice law and can you work across States in the US and things like that. People were really in the midst of figuring it out and I was a bit intimidated by it.

So during that year and a half, I actually ran a drop ship furniture store and I did some marketing and stuff for a fair trade organization that was based in Thailand. But throughout this whole time, I met a bunch amazing entrepreneurs and people with online businesses and they were all asking me legal questions. They were asking for my help. So finally, I started dipping the toe in the water of what that might look like and eventually I gave in, was introduced to the coaching world and I saw an area that really needed my help. And I really enjoyed working with coaches and business owners, helping them get protected.

So that's kind of how I stumbled into what is now Destination Legal.

Can I just say, before I hired you, I was looking around for someone like you, but it was very hard to find you Sarah (everyone that is reading just check out Sarah's website here) and when I did, it was so amazing. What I love about your business is the very first thing you see on your website is literally 'Protect Your Passion' - which is obviously your trademark and, 'Legal made easy for your online business'.

I could have fallen off my seat when I saw that and then I started scrolling and seeing 'If you're a coach ... if you're a business owner ... if you have courses ... if you have a membership site' and I'm like, yes, that's me! I was so excited. So of course we had to get in touch and hire you.

I wanted to ask you is, what do you love most about working with online coaches? It really does seem to be such a big part of what you do, or is it all that you do? Is it mostly coaches that you work with?

It is mostly coaches. In terms of trademarks, I work with some eCommerce brands and some other types of online business owners. But I would say coaches and then course creators are probably my main customer base. And I really love coaches, I love the coaching world. I've always had coaches. I think it's such an amazing ecosystem that has developed. It's small but it's big. As a side note, in between the furniture store and really diving into Destination Legal, I looked into being a health coach myself because I want to help people. And I quickly realized I actually didn't want to do that. But, through that I found so many coaches that turned into clients and people that needed help.

Protect your passion is my passion and I really feel so strongly about helping coaches and women protect themselves because legal is such a scary piece for so many people, but it's so important.

You cannot build a successful business without a strong legal foundation.

I think it stops a lot of people from moving forward and it doesn't need to. It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. It doesn't have to be scary legal, right? I want it to be legal ease. And so the more people I met and the more help I was able to give them and see how it made them feel more confident, supported and, able to really grow - that's the best feeling for me.

So maybe you know this or maybe you don't but, two years ago I actually had my digital course copied and it was really the catalyst that brought me to you to find you. And it was a big wake up call that I really needed to protect my work and hire an attorney. But I had no idea of the importance of IP up until then. One of the things that really made me feel so confident, I think it was more of an inner confidence, was that I had my work protected after working with you and, after looking at trademarks and all those sorts of things.

I want to ask you in your opinion, when do you think we should start really looking at protecting our work? How early on in the journey? Typically, what do you see with your client base?

That's a great question. And it's an interesting answer because my initial thought is it's not right away, right? It's not necessarily one of the things that you need to think about at the very beginning, but then yet I just someone purchased a trademark today and they haven't even launched yet.

It really is an individual decision. It's so important because it's really, especially with trademarking, it's the only way to own your brand, to own your name, to have this business asset and, to make sure that nobody else can come in and use it. With the trademark, you own it and you now #ownyourhustle, right? That's yours and nobody can come in and have anything similar. Doesn't that make you feel so confident and powerful?

So confident and, the reason why I wanted to trademark 'Own Your Hustle' was because I was on LinkedIn and I searched my hashtag #ownyourhustle to see what's going on, who was tagging me and whatnot. And I saw this lady had written a book somewhere in Africa called Own Your Hustle and my heart just sank. Writing a book is on my list of things to do one day and I just remember writing to you, or maybe Michael wrote to you saying, I think we need to start trademarking. That was like, the moment we were like, let's do this.

Yeah. That's the gut test. That's the answer to your question - when should you think about it. It isn't whether you're one month in, six months in or five years in. The question you need to ask yourself is - exactly what happened to you:

If somebody came in tomorrow and sent you a cease and desist letter saying you had to stop using your name, program name, course name, retreat name, whatever. Would you get that gut punch? Would your stomach sink? If the answer is yes, it's probably time to trademark.

If you're like, 'Oh well, it's okay. I'll just rebrand' ... It's not a big deal then so maybe you don't trademark. But if you do get that gut feeling of 'I don't want to lose this', then it's time to really own it because that's the only security that you have.

That definitely was the feeling, just a real sinking feeling. And it was only 12 to 18 months in, but where I showed up every single day using the hashtag, using #ownyourhustle. And to think that that could have been taken away from me .... So yes, everybody - do the gut test. Then it becomes addicting, right?

You guys can't stop (haha).

I know we have so many trademarks that are currently in the works or in the process of being approved. So that's actually a question that I know so many people are wanting to know. How long does it take to trademark and what is the expected timeframe generally and, how do you even get started?

Well, it really varies. We can talk about yours or we can not. That's up to you.

Let's talk about ours!

Well. So a few of yours have sailed through really wonderfully. If you get a trademark registered within seven to 12 months, you're doing really well. So with 'Own Your Hustle' and 'Ruby Lee', we didn't have many issues. And now we have one that is kind of taking longer and it's going to be more of a drawn out process.

It's really hard to say at the beginning how it's gonna play out because The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) in the US is filled with attorneys all of whom have individual minds. So it really is dependent on which attorney again and what they think and, if there's other conflicting marks or if there's anything close. If you do get an office action or you get questions from the attorney, it can definitely draw out the process.

So I would say the quickest one I've gotten through has been six months and I've had others that are going on a year and a half, and we're still having issues. So it really does vary.

To get started, talk to an attorney. You can try trademarks by yourself but I've had so many people try and then they mess something up and they come to me and it ends up costing them more than if they had just started with an attorney. So while there's some things that you can do on your own, this is one of those things that maybe you wouldn't. Like you wouldn't do your own root canal or you wouldn't perform surgery on yourself. There's a reason that lawyers go to law school, we're trained in this.

So if you're interested, the first step is to do the gut test and, if you're ready, the next step is to talk to an attorney and then they really will help you through the process. And the other nice thing about that is it's totally hands off for you. So I tell you what I need, we might work on your website or preparing things for the application, but otherwise it's completely hands-off and it's being taken care of.

I am so happy you're looking after it for me because that is the last thing that I want to be doing - even just trying to translate what a legal office is asking for. So yes.

And I'm happy to be really transparent here - the pending trademark one that's really taking some time for us is, I think, is the name of the course that I'm doing around LinkedIn. I found it so interesting because this wasn't even a thought before I had worked with you. I thought, 'Oh, I'll do a course and I'll call it LinkedIn BrandBoss'. Then Sarah said to me, 'You know, the name LinkedIn is their trademark, it's their company'. And I know that there are a lot of other coaches or content creators who've got courses like 'Instagram Made Easy' or 'First on Facebook' etc. using different brand names within our course names.

So what are some things that we can really think about when, when naming our courses to really get on the front foot around trademarks and IP?

Such a good question. I think the number one lesson and takeaway here is that you should really try to avoid using another company's trademark because they can come after you for that. So if someone for example with a course name 'Instagram Made Easy' is amazing and they're making six figures, multi-six figures or millions a year, Instagram could come after them for trademark infringement and actually get some of those profits. I know there's a lot of people in the online business world and people think 'They won't come after me'. But you just never know.

So if you can, try not to use a trademark name in the actual course name. You can use it in your tagline or in your branding on your sales page. And, if you go to any of the platforms, there's usually a section on IP and intellectual property, and they tell you what you can do. So, LinkedIn will say, you can use the name LinkedIn, but you can't use it in your domain or you can't use it in XYZ places.

In the trademark world, the more unique the name, the better. So that is something to consider. I think it's so amazing that we were able to get 'Own Your Hustle' because it is such an awesome phrase. When I first heard that from you guys, I was like, 'Oh my God, I can't imagine that's still available'. And it was and we went after it so quickly.

The thing is - it can be a race to the trademark office. So, if we filed on Monday but somebody else had filed on Sunday, USPTO would process their entire application first. So that date that you filed the application really does make a difference.

I was so thrilled. I think we drank some Prosecco to that. It felt like almost the same feeling of getting handed the keys to your house. It's like, you own this now, this is yours. It was amazing.

Okay so switching gears a little bit. Recently you helped me a lot with a client exit and it was so comforting to have you there (seriously guys, check out Destination Legal) because a client exit is never easy. There's contracts and perhaps payments that are still outstanding, not to even mention the awkwardness that both parties go through. One of the things that I have to say in even emailing you and getting your help and support and advice was just a knowing that - contracts are there to really help us as coaches rather than second guessing our every action, what to do, what to say.

What are some things that you can say to coaches who are just starting out around the importance of having contracts, especially to do with exiting clients or having payments that are still outstanding, mid coaching relationship?

Absolutely. I would say the way it happened for you was an actual really nice scenario. I've seen others that have not ended so well. As you said, contracts are there to protect you. Contracts are like car insurance or health insurance. You don't want to need it, but you are very glad that you have it if you do need it.

With legal, it really is a matter of when, if you're in business long enough and you're growing a business, you're going to run into this issue and you're gonna run into legal issues. Without a contract you have nothing to refer to and you have nothing to fall back on.

Contracts are there to protect both parties.

They're there to ensure that the boundaries are there and the communication is clear around what if there is a late payment, what if they missed a session or what if they want to leave. The contract really provides that details to refer to. If you don't have that, then you're really at the mercy of the client almost. You might lose sales, you might lose that client and, there just a lot of issues that can pop up if you don't have that in place.

I had a client yesterday say to me 'I've got a client of mine who just hasn't been booking in calls and our time is coming to an end. What would you do?' and I said to her, 'Do you have a contract?' and she's like 'I don't'. So that's the feeling of being at the mercy of the client who didn't really have any parameters to play within. There was sort of like an agreement based on the sales page, but it wasn't actually an offical agreement.

So what are you thoughts on copying and pasting from the internet and just sending it to someone a makeshift contract. I know a lot of people do this and think 'I'll just Google what a standard agreement looks like and then put my logo on it. What are your thoughts on this?

Yes, I have thoughts on this ... so, don't do it. It's not a good idea and there are many reasons for this.

1. You don't know what you don't know. Most people don't know what needs to be in a contract. If they're Googling, they might see something that looks okay, but they're not going to know if it really is going to fit their business. They're not going to know if it has the right clauses or if it's going to protect them. Sometimes it can make things worse having a contract that isn't right or isn't valid and you think that it is. It is just dangerous to do that because then you're walking around knowing that you asked Google for help and, you're not going to have that sense of confidence had you purchased a template from an attorney or had it written by someone that knows your industry. That's the other big thing.
2. But also copying things like that from the internet is copyright infringement. Anytime you're copying something that somebody else has written, it's copyright infringement and that person could come after you. For example, my contract templates all have one license to use them and you can not share them. If I find out that that a person was sharing their template or something else, then there can be legal ramifications to that. So it's really just not a good idea.

Fortunately, these days there are attorneys and companies like Destination Legal, where you can get a coaching contract for a couple of hundred bucks. It's not going to cost you $5,000 to pay a big law firm. This can be a couple hundred dollars that can save you literally tens of thousands, potentially your entire business.

It's one of those things just to, just to get it done and check it off your list and know that you did it the right way. You want to build your business on, on a strong foundation.

Thank you so much for just setting the record straight on that, Sarah, because it's one of those topics that you kind of think no one's ever going to notice and might think 'I'm just a small coaching practice. I want to look bigger than what I am. So I'll just doctor something together'. So I think this is the arse kicking that we needed!

I've had people come to me, lots of them, admitting that they've done that and asking for help. We're all doing the best we can, but once you have the knowledge and you know, what needs to be done, you'll feel so much better. I've had people say 'Oh my gosh, I just bought your template. I can sleep better tonight because I know that I am legally protected now'.

Yes. Okay, so if you're reading this - this is the time don't do a copy and paste job, you were meant to hear this. So shifting gears again, this question is really around your business model. I love it as a business coach and, studying how entrepreneurs really run the online businesses! Most of your business is almost passive, I would say. Like you can purchase templates and contracts ... and obviously still speak to you about trademarking an IP.

I know that there might be a lot of lawyers reading this and, same as you, wanting to get out of the billing and the consulting and being in the 9-9 lifestyle. How did you first begin to set up your almost passive income business and having these amazing contracts out there, I would love to learn the basics of what you did to get started.

I think I was inspired by my environment because back when I was traveling as a nomad and I was with a lot of other service providers and people that were building businesses, and I was looking at the different models and I was very intentional. First of all, doing custom contracts for people all over the world all the time. I'm not interested in trading time for money, right? I'm not interested in counting my hours and doing things like that. And the other piece of that is wanting to help as many people as possible.

If I'm doing a custom contract, it's way more expensive obviously than a template and, I wanted to make it affordable.

It's kind of a win win there because you're right, once I write the templates, I may update them occasionally but contract law has been around for a long time. It's not changing. We do updates for things like GDPR and privacy policies when we need to but - a health coaching contract is a health coaching contract. So, it was very intentional because I do love travel, I love freedom and I love flexibility. I knew back when I started this business that I wanted something that could run without me so that I could be with my kids when I had them and, something that really has the potential to scale.

A digital product, whether it is a course or a template, is really an interesting business model to have (we're working on a course as well - the Legit Coach - so stay tuned for that) and I love the idea of helping as many people be protected as possible.

It's interesting that you say you had a hard time finding me because of course I know my own space, there are a good number of online attorneys out there, but I forget how big the internet is. And so I see them, but a lot of people don't and so the more I can help spread the word and teach - the better.

Yes. I remember going 'Okay, I need to find a cool lawyer who understands cool branding and isn't just going to make my contract sound really super scary'. When you read some contracts and it's just like- oh my God, how am I supposed to say something like this to my clients? But, the reason why I didn't find you initially is because I was just trying to Google and do my own research for an attorney.

Guys, you can ask if you're in the coaching industry - just ask people! As soon as I started to ask my community online, your name came up so many times. It was just like 'Go to Sarah', 'Go to Sarah', 'Go to Sarah' so I did!

So where can everyone best find you, work with you and, purchase your templates and the amazing work that you put out there?

Yes. absolutely. The legal shop is at destinationlegal.com and you can also find information about Make Your Mark?, which is my trademark package on the website as well. You can find us at Destination Legal on Facebook and Instagram. And just reach out email or send me a message. I'm not a scary lawyer. I promise!

One last question! So a lot of my clients are based out of the US do your contracts carry over to other countries? Like how does that work?

Contract law has been around for a while and fortunately Australia, Canada, the UK and US are all based in this common law system of law and the same basics apply everywhere.

As with any template, especially even in the US as we have 50 different States here, I can't guarantee that the template meets a hundred percent of law anywhere (just because there can be minor nuances to things). So I always say, if anyone has a question, absolutely have a local attorney in your jurisdiction look it over - but they are customizable for countries around the world and there are directions on how to utilize them.

One of the important things is just knowing that these templates are for your industry and not just some random thing that you might find on legal zoom or things like that.

I've never had anyone come back and say this was an issue or didn't work or anything like that but I always do include that, disclaimer, that if you have any questions about your own locality, that you should always talk to an attorney.

Well, thank you so much, Sarah, you have been so fun to interview and to ask all the questions that I'm sure others have wanted to ask their attorney, or their soon-to-be attorney.

For the readers - I actually have an affiliate link for Sarah in this post so make sure you click on that and, I hope you found the information in this interview super useful!

Sarah - I so appreciate the work that you've done for Michael and I in our business and I'm so proud to be using Destination Legal. It just wouldn't be the same without you. x

Thank you so much. It's been great chatting!

_________________________________________________

LISTEN TO THIS WHOLE PODCAST EPISODE HERE

FOLLOW SARAH ON INSTAGRAM HERE AND WEBSITE HERE

GET 10% OFF SARAH'S TEMPLATE IF YOU USE THIS CODE: RUBY

JOIN MY 6 MONTH LINKEDIN MEMBERSHIP: LBB ACADEMY HERE

FIND OUT MORE ABOUT COACHING WITH ME HERE

GET SOCIAL WITH ME ON INSTAGRAM

FOR PODCAST SPEAKER ENQUIRES, EMAIL [email protected]