Get Hired with Carla Harris

How do you land a job and lead an incredibly successful career while also nurturing your passions? Someone who has done all of that and more is 摩根士丹利 's Carla Harris . In addition to being a senior client adviser at the investment bank, she is a sought-after speaker and author . Carla also has a successful singing career, selling out concerts at Carnegie Hall and the Apollo Theater.

Carla joined LinkedIn News Editor Andrew Seaman to offer some pearls on the latest episode of the Get Hired podcast , those include the secrets behind her success and how others can navigate their careers while pursuing their passions. They touch on taking charge of your career, balancing professional and personal pursuits, and achieving success in both realms.

You can listen to the episode above or on Apple Podcasts by clicking here . A transcript of the conversation is also available below.

TRANSCRIPT: Get Hired with Carla Harris

Andrew Seaman: How do you land a job, lead an incredibly successful career while also nurturing your passions? Well, we're talking all about it on today's episode.

From LinkedIn News this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's senior managing editor for Jobs and Career Development, bringing new conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.

Few people are more incredible to hear from in the business world than Morgan Stanley's Carla Harris. She is immensely respected in her profession. She has authored bestselling books and has been named to almost every influential business list in the world. And even with all of that, she has found time to have a thriving music career, selling out Carnegie Hall on several occasions and recording a number of albums. So when I was thinking about who job seekers would like to hear from when it comes to taking charge of their careers, I thought there was no one better than Carla Harris. To kick things off. I asked her if she had a guiding principle that she applied to her own career. Here's Carla.

Carla Harris: I think everyone needs to have an agenda for their career, and there are two pieces to the agenda. The first is the seat, and the seat is the job that you want. And there are certain questions that inform your decision to take the seat. What kind of skills do you want to get? What kind of experiences do you want to have? What kind of people do you want to meet? What kind of network do you want to build? What kind of career platform do you want to build for yourself? And how do you want the trajectory to look like? And so when you're considering a seat, all of those questions should come into play and that will inform why you are taking that seat. Because having that why is important to you, especially as you have ups and downs in your career. And it can keep you riveted and it can stop you from making emotional decisions when you don't get the promotion that you want, you don't get the assignment that you want, that you don't quickly have an emotional reaction and say, "I'm out."

You go back and you say, "Well, how does this fit with my agenda? How does this affect the timing of what I wanted to accomplish? Can I still accomplish it faster here than exercising the risk or taking on the risk to actually move to someplace else?" And then there's a decision about the house. The house is where you're prosecuting the seat. You have questions around the house and you say, "Do I like the values associated with this organization? Do I like the people? Is there a good platform for me? Do they have a steep trajectory? Will I have a respected voice? Are there candidates for me to choose a sponsor here?"

So those are some of the questions that you ask yourself before making the decision to go to an organization. And that's how I've thought about things as opportunities have come up because the question I get all the time is, "How have you been at Morgan Stanley so long?" Well, by having an agenda, I'm not easily enticed by an offer that might be $50,000 more than I'm making. I have to go back and say, "There are risks associated anytime you change organization A to organization B, and you better first make sure that you're being compensated for that risk. And then you start to think about whether or not it's going to impact your agenda in a positive way."

Andrew: Yeah, I am a huge fan of that advice. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people, they feel lost or they don't know what their why is. Do you have advice for people who maybe they're struggling to find their mission?

Carla: Yeah, absolutely. And I have to tell you, it's pretty common because most people come out of college and you say, "Okay, I got to get a job." And if you're not sure about what you want to do, it's easy to get caught up in that vortex. And as you say, four or five years into it, you're like, "Well, wait a minute, why did I do this?" And it's a really tough conversation. And here's my advice. Spend the time and say, "Of all the experiences I've had, of all the things that I've done, what are the things that I like? Do I like working with people? Do I like problem solving on my own? Do I like things that are entertainment and media related? Or do I think I'd actually to spending some time in hospitality?" One of the things I talk about in my second book, Strategize to Win, is to ask yourself these questions so that you can start to put a framework together around the things that you like. That's one piece of paper or the things that you enjoy doing.

Second sheet of paper, what are some of the things you'd like to learn about that you'd like to be exposed to? So maybe you have done financially related things all through your internships, maybe your first job, but you've always been interested in technology. So if money was no object, what part of technology? Would it be software? Would it be hardware? Would it be AI related? Ask yourself some questions around the things you might like to do.

And then the third piece of paper, now look at the things that you like to do, probably pretty good at, the things that you'd like to learn. And if you say, "Two years from now, five years from now, what kind of profile would I like to have?" Somebody who's done strategy, somebody who is very quantitatively driven, somebody who's had a lot of creative experience, somebody who's had experience managing other people. Now you can start to on that third sheet of paper, put together your job description. And here's a critical piece of advice. Don't think about a specific job. Think about the content. So you say, "The opportunity that I want next has this kind of content," three or four bullet points, because now you open yourself up to many opportunities as opposed to that one job.

Andrew: And something that I'm always curious about, and I would really like your opinion on is being realistic about careers. How do you tell people and coach people about being realistic about their day-to-day lives and how they should feel about their careers?

Carla: Absolutely. And I say exactly what you said, "You're always going to have up and downs on any given day." It may not even be job related. You may jump out of bed today because you had seven and a half, eight hours of great sleep. You're going to feel like a different person versus if you only got two or three hours. So your perspective on that day may not be job related. It may be about everything else that's going on in your life.

So if you're starting to feel like, "I'm not really liking this, or it's boring me, stop," and actually analyze what's going on. Ask questions like, why are you bored? Have you fully prosecuted the seat? Have you gotten all of the skills and experiences that you wanted to get? Okay, well then that's your answer. It's time to change the seat. And so often people stay in the seat too long simply because they don't know what else they want to do. But that should also be your wake-up bell to say, "Okay, let me spend this weekend now going through the same analysis that I went through to get this seat."

Andrew: And I really appreciate that because if you did that experiment or thought process with yourself maybe two years ago, a year ago, and you've been in that position, you're not a different person, but you're definitely at a different point from where you were. So you do need to revisit that. And obviously for job seekers, sometimes it's really difficult because they get thrust into a situation either through a layoff or they find that they're really unhappy at their current place. From your point of view, if you were a job seeker, if you were looking for a new opportunity, where would you start?

Carla: I think you start with the same analysis that we just talked about. And if you have been displaced or laid off, I'm going to ask you to reframe it and sort of think about it as an opportunity that you might not have taken on your own. And sometimes the universe presents the opportunity because you should have moved a long time ago, but saved for your fear, you didn't. Right? And say for your lack of confidence, you didn't. So now you've been forced to look at it. And if I was starting all over again, if I assume money was no object, what would I want to do? What would I want to get up out of the bed and do every day? What would really make me happy? And start there. And if you don't know, but spend some time throwing ideas out there, some things will be eliminated and some things will make you go, "Okay, that might not be so bad."

Now, here's an important thing. Don't convince yourself that you shouldn't go for it simply because you haven't had experience in that space. There are very few jobs where your prior experience is the prerequisite for you're getting that job. All you have to do to get the next job that you want is to understand what the buyer is really buying. What are the key success factors for that new role? Now you tell your story through that lens. So for example, I've been a career investment banker. I better have some pretty good quantitative and analytical skills. However, I can also craft a great email. I can craft a great presentation. I can present in a compelling way. So now I am looking for a job at the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. Maybe I'm looking for a job as a writer or a reporter, or both.

Well, what are the key success factors for that? You have to be able to communicate well, both in a written form and certainly verbally. You have to be able to connect with people very well because your edge is getting them to tell you something that they might not tell somebody else. You have to be dogged in your pursuit where you don't take no for an answer.

Now I'm sitting down interviewing now I say, "I'm really interested in getting a role at the New York Times as a writer and as a reporter. I think I'd be pretty good at it because throughout my career as a banker, I've had to connect with people really quickly, especially as a capital markets banker, where once the business comes in, now it's my turn to get them to trust me as we're going to go on the road for 10 days and then hopefully get this deal done successfully. And I need to have them trust me in the way that they don't doubt the recommendation at the time that I make it. I'm also a fast learner because I've worked in this industry, this industry, this industry and this industry, and I'm a pretty good writer because part of my job was to help these CEOs craft their story as they told it to the marketplace. And my understanding is that you have to be able to craft the story, communicate well in written and oral form, and connect well with people. So I think I'd be pretty good in getting started as a reporter."

Andrew: And I assume also with that exercise, would you suggest people really open up the window to the possibilities of what they can do based like you said on your skills? Because I know even in my own family, I've had these discussions where they've graduated with a degree in accounting, or they've graduated with a degree in psychology and they feel like they have to be in that profession. And I always tell them, "No, you can use those tools elsewhere." Right?

Carla: That's right. This is an argument that I have with graduates all the time who feel pigeonholed, and I have conversations with them about all the ways they can apply that which they've learned. "So you majored in accounting, guess what? You can also be a consultant because you have good analytical and quantitative skills. Guess what? You can also go into investment banking because you know your way around a balance sheet and an income statement. Guess what? You can go and work in the corporate treasury's office at a major corporation." And the same way with psychology people, "You know people, you like the way people think. There are so many roles for example, in HR, there's so many roles in organizations to create high performance teams. So think about how you might apply your psychology degree to something like that or marketing, because part of it is understanding what motivates people to buy." This goes back to our earlier point, don't think of one job, think of the content, and now you open up all kinds of opportunities for yourself with respect to a job.

Andrew: We'll be right back with Carla Harris.

Andrew: And we're back with Morgan Stanley's, Carla Harris, who is a bestselling author, recording artist, and LinkedIn Top Voice.

One thing that I often hear from people, especially job seekers, is the idea of networking and having a network. And I was wondering, in your experience, has your network served you? And also what networking tips do you have for people?

Carla: Yeah, I think your network is one of the most important tools that you will have in your tool chest, especially as it relates to maximizing your success. And networking for a lot of people, as you point out, is a dirty word. And it doesn't have to be. It's just about connecting with someone else and more importantly, activating the relationship. Because often people have a network, they know a lot of people, but then they are afraid of asking for an introduction to this person or asking for that person to listen to their story and see whether or not it resonates. What's the purpose of having relationships in a network if you don't activate it? And what I say to people, "To get yourself comfortable using your network, put yourself in somebody else's way. So every time somebody asks you for help or for a perspective, they're networking."

If you are an introvert or it does not come natural to you, then leverage your strength and your strength like me, it's probably that you're a good executor. If it's on the list, you get it done. So I'm going to say hello to five people at this conference, or I'm going to have coffee with three people in my office. Put it on the list. If it's on the list, it will get done. But if you keep saying, "I know I need to talk to somebody, I know I need to connect," it can become overwhelming. But if it's on the list, you get it done. So it's not as intimidating as you think.

And here's the other secret. When you're at a big conference, please know that people are as afraid of you as you are of them. So you might as well get the upper hand and go to somebody and say, "This is your first conference, first time you've been at this conference. How do you like it? Oh, by the way, do you have a card or can we exchange the information?" Ask, the worst they can do is say no. And if they say no, go to the next person. Don't let one person's rejection stop you from connecting with people.

Andrew: Exactly. And you mentioned rejection in there, and I think that's something that job seekers, they deal with all the time. They will fall in love with a job before they have it. They will maybe get an instant rejection from an application. What is your advice for dealing with rejection or those lulls in a job search?

Carla: Well, here's the thing. You know that there's a 50/50 chance that you're going to get it and that you're not going to get it. And even if it's the job that you think you really want, and here's where my faith actually comes into play, then I say, "If I've done everything I was supposed to do and I still didn't get it, then maybe this isn't the job that I thought I should have. Or maybe it's not the right timing." So I just keep going.

And because every time you interview for a job, every time you have that experience, it is now added to your experiential tool chest. You know how to say it differently the next time. You know how to answer a question a little bit better the next time. And if you can get feedback from that exchange, that's the most important. Now, I know a lot of companies are not into giving people feedback these days, but if you can't ask for it, you never know. But you should be grateful for the opportunity of having the at-bat because it has made you that much better and a little bit closer to the next one.

Andrew: That resonates with me so strongly, because I remember years ago, I applied for a role. I didn't get it. I got to the end. What they did was come back to me and say, "It just didn't seem like you were excited for this job." And it was actually a great conversation. And then the next job I applied for, I was like, "Okay, remember to tell them I want the job to be excited for the role," and I got it. And that's one of the things I now tell people all the time is, "If you're going in for a job, tell them you want it and be excited for it." And I still appreciate that rejection so much because it led me to where I am.

Carla: Absolutely. And I call it asking for the order. That's what they call it in my business. Because here's the deal, if you had two qualified candidates sitting in front of you, and one seems super excited about joining the team, and the other was, "Okay," who are you going to choose? And every single time the person answers, "The one who wants to join my team, the one who's excited." Absolutely.

Andrew: And something else I wanted to talk to you about is I'm a big proponent of people having a life outside of their work. And I know that you have that. You are an incredible singer. You've had a career as a singer, and I was wondering how you make that work because you're also an incredibly busy person in the business world, but you make time for something else. So can you tell us how you do that?

Carla: Yes. Well, first of all, I'm a big fan of having other things that bring you joy, because that's what creates balance. And if you have, whether it's singing or writing or mentoring people or working out or running, whatever it is, you have to have some of that in your day every day in order to create balance. And if you have that balance, you're going to always excel with respect to whatever your career happens to be. And the way that I make it work is I'm maniacal about my calendar. I use every minute in my calendar, and I found ways to integrate the two. So for example, I just did my sixth sold out concert at Carnegie Hall. Well, leading up to that, the days that I had to go into the office, I would leave just a little bit later because I knew it would make the traffic heavier and it would take me a little longer to get into the city.

Well, guess what I was doing? I was practicing. I was going through breathing exercises. I was singing notes. I was learning lyrics. But again, Carla, the singer is riding in the car with Carla, the banker. And when I got to work, then I was all about work. But up until then, I was working on the music. So I integrate the thing that I'm passionate about with my everyday existence. But you have to be really organized and you have to prioritize. So here's where I prioritized because I wanted to be successful as an investment banker, that meant I could not be a touring singer, so I could sing, but I was going to have to sing most often locally because I'm in the kind of business if a client calls and you got to change a meeting, you got to change a meeting, and you can't say, "No, I can't do it."

So I had to have that measure of flexibility around my avocation, which was singing so that I would be able to be flexible enough to be successful in my vocation, which was being an investment banker. I never got the priorities mixed up around that. But all my other time in my periphery, I was pursuing singing. I sang in local choirs. I sang in the Citywide Choir called the Mark Howell Singers. I sang at my church, but I also joined organizations where they knew there were going to be some times I couldn't show up at rehearsal because of work. And my commitment to them was that the next time I showed up to rehearsal, I would be ready. I would not be absent and not ready.

Andrew: And also, I assume it's not like you keep these worlds completely separate. The people at work know that you have a love for singing, and the people that you sing with, they know your day job. So it's not like the worlds are completely separate, right?

Carla: Not at all. And I'm a big fan of integrating them, right? You don't have to necessarily wear it on your sleeve or push it down to anybody else. I didn't walk around the halls of Morgan Stanley singing at the top of my lungs all the time, but people certainly knew that that was something that I did, I was passionate about. And when I had performances, either with the choir or on my own, I would invite my colleagues. So absolutely integrate them. But make no mistake though about the priority; work came first, and I never dropped the ball in 36 years. I never dropped the ball on the number one priority.

Andrew: Exactly. And before I let you go, I would also like to know if you have any message for people who maybe find themselves struggling in their job search or their career, because I think a lot of people, they feel that sort of society pressure to hit refresh and to change. What is your message for people who are struggling a little bit?

Carla: If you're struggling, find out why you're struggling, and definitely don't make changes because you're feeling societal pressure. The only person that really matters in this equation is you. You are the CEO of your life. The second piece of advice, talk to other people about how you're thinking about this. Every CEO has a team. Every CEO has a board of advisors or two or three people that they go to bounce ideas off of or to get input. And then number three, keep your foot on the gas and execute. If you give up and you stop, you're going to be exactly where you are. That's clear. But what if you push one more meeting, have one more coffee, and that's the breakthrough. So keep going until you get it. You just haven't gotten to the thing yet, but you need to be clear on what the thing looks like and what's going to make you feel like you can soar, and then you're on your way.

Andrew: I think that's a great note to end on. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Carla: Thank you. Thanks a lot for having me.

Andrew: That was Morgan Stanley's, Carla Harris.

Remember, it's up to you to put our advice into practice still. You always have a community backing you up and cheering you on. Connect with me and the Get Hired community on LinkedIn to continue this conversation.

Also, if you like this episode, leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts. It helps people like you find the show. And don't forget to click that follow, subscribe, or whatever other button you find to get our podcast delivered to you every Wednesday because we'll be continuing these conversations on the next episode right here, wherever you like to listen.

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News . This episode was produced by Alexis Elizabeth Ramdaou . Assaf Gidron engineered our show, Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Dave Pond is head of news production. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Courtney Chapman Coupe is the head of original programming for LinkedIn. Daniel Roth is the editor in chief of LinkedIn. And I'm Andrew Seaman . Until next time, stay well and best of luck.