Fighting the Fear of Failure with Ryan Estis

This is Episode Two of Season One of the 12 Geniuses podcast. My friend Ryan Estis shares his journey of leaving Corporate America to start his own business. Understandably, Ryan encountered doubt (his own and from others), fear, and indecision. In the end, Ryan's determination and willingness to experiment has enabled him to create a business that has exceeded what he thought was possible.

This conversation was first released on the?12 Geniuses?podcast on October 29, 2018 and can be found on your favorite podcast app. The following is the edited transcript from that conversation.

Don MacPherson:

If you have ever wondered what separates top performers from everyone else, you probably discovered it is just a couple differentiators that determine wild success from average results. My name is Don MacPherson, and for two decades, I've been working with executives to help them optimize performance at the individual, team, and organization levels. Now I interview exceptional performers in athletics, music, entertainment, and business, so we can all learn from them. Welcome to 12 Geniuses.

In this episode of 12 Geniuses, our guest is Ryan Estis. In January 2009, at the height of the Great Recession, Ryan chose to say goodbye to Corporate America, to start a professional speaking and consulting business. Fighting back the fear of failure and leaving behind a comfortable executive position at a Fortune 500 company, Ryan overcame the odds and built a business over the last decade that finds him to be one of the most in demand keynote speakers in America. In the first part of this interview, we are going to hear about Ryan's entrepreneurial journey. In the second part, he will discuss some of the ways his clients are fighting off disruption in an economy being changed by new technologies, business models, and shifting demographics.

Ryan, welcome to 12 Geniuses.

Ryan Estis:

Thanks, Don. It's good to be here.

Don MacPherson:

So, in January of 2009, your company was laying off 30% of its workforce. And you said, “Include me in that.”

Ryan Estis:

I did. Yeah, that was our fourth round of layoffs in about 12 months, by far our largest. And I just felt like it was time for me to make my move. I disagreed with the decisions that were being made in the business. They were beyond my control. We were part of a publicly traded company. It was a pretty specific formula, managing headcount to revenue, and obviously our revenues were stressed given the circumstances. It was the Great Recession and I didn't want to spend the sweet spot of my career running a mediocre business sideways. And so, I took a deep breath and it was an abrupt departure. I mean, literally, within 24 hours of receiving that phone call and 30% that decision, I was out.

Don MacPherson:

What was your state of mind? Fear, excitement, liberation? What was going through your head at the time?

Ryan Estis:

It was more fear than excitement. It was a difficult time. I mean, obviously, it was a difficult time for any business, let alone to think about beginning one's entrepreneurial journey. I'd worked inside that company for over 15 years. So, there was a lot of security and stability. I was good at it. I knew how to do it. I had a lot of support around me. The idea of packing up and going home and opening up my laptop at the kitchen table the next day. I think the harsh reality set in that we're in the middle of a recession, this is going to be tough.

My back was against the wall and it was sink or swim. Yeah, it was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of anxiety, but I think for periods of time, some of those things can actually propel you forward. I had made my decision. I walked and then the bet was on me and what's going to happen next. That's what it was like. Look, there were a couple of sleepless nights and there were moments of time where I had the phone in my hand, thinking about calling my boss to beg for a job I didn't even want back, but that was the best phone call I didn't make.

Don MacPherson:

The good news is everybody was supportive, friends, family. They said, “This is a great time to quit your business.” Is that basically how it went?

Ryan Estis:

No, no, that's not how it went. And people told me I was insane, that it was destroying my career. People thought I was having some kind of a midlife crisis, and said it was the absolute worst time to start a business. It was inconceivable. I wasn't going to make it. That people starting consulting, training, speaking, doing those kinds of things, people were leaving those industries, looking for jobs, for stability because the marketplace was stressed. A lot of what I was bringing from a services, and a consulting, a speaking perspective, that's discretionary spend. Companies don't have to pay for those things. And certainly, it wasn't the best time, but looking back at it all, it actually proved to be a pretty good decision.

Don MacPherson:

You're approaching 10 years.

Ryan Estis:

Right.

Don MacPherson:

And in 2009, when you were starting the business, what did you think it could become?

Ryan Estis:

I never thought it could become what it is today. I think it's exceeded even my grandest expectations. But I thought that if I put everything I had into it and continued to develop my skills and evolve, that I could have a solid and successful management consulting business that was supported by speaking as one revenue stream, and the primary marketing outreach for that business. That was my initial inception.

Don MacPherson:

And when did you realize that was going to be a success? How long did it take? Was it several years?

Ryan Estis:

Several years. It was. I would say?I made some critical missteps out of the gate. I formed partnerships. I took on project work just to cashflow the business that I really wasn't interested in that consumed a lot of the lion share of my time to deliver on it and minimize my ability to go out and do other things and build other things that I was interested in. But I think by the third or fourth year in, the first couple of years, I was just trying to get to the end of the year so I could play another year. That was the mindset. Do enough, get enough traction where you can conceivably say, “Yeah, it makes sense to keep going.” But I think year three, year four, when I got focused and started to see momentum, that's when I thought, “Okay, this is it.”

Don MacPherson:

And at what point would you have circled the wagons and gone a different route? Did you have a point where you said, “If I'm not here, then I'm going to go back to corporate America and find a similar job?

Ryan Estis:

Yeah, I did. Well, so I did have a point and I had a very clear plan with my financial advisor, that if I ever picked up the phone… I had set aside a chunk of money to cashflow the business and to live. And beyond that, if I was going to call and need cash out of investments and savings, if I was going to start to deconstruct that, then my financial advisor’s only appropriate response was, “It's time to get your resume together.”

So, we had a very, very clear plan. Additionally, during those first couple of years of uncertainty, I was also interviewing for jobs. I’d get calls by headhunters, friends. That was also creating a distraction. I had too much emotional energy and investment in this idea of a plan B. And it truly was once I got committed and focused and clear, that energy created momentum that I ultimately think was the catalyst to drive me forward, the business forward, and help it become what it is today.

Don MacPherson:

You said that three or four years in, you knew this was going to be a success. At what point were you able to match your income from the job that you had quit?

Ryan Estis:

The fourth year out, I exceeded my income. Then I knew. I said, “Oh, wow, this proved to be a good decision.” But I want to tell you that wasn't the goal. I remember driving home my last day at work and thinking to myself, “If this transition enables me to have the freedom to work for myself, and to focus on work that I love, and to do the kinds of projects, and work with the kind of people that I really truly enjoy, I would be happy having half the income I had in my corporate job.” Money was not the sole driver. It was almost a search for meaning. And so, the fact that I had eclipsed my best year effort in corporate America by year four, that was icing on the cake.

Don MacPherson:

That's great. And I really like the way that you framed that because money was not the way that you were measuring success. So, one of the questions that I love to ask people is, how do you define success?

Ryan Estis:

For me, it's about impact. And it's hard to measure, right? How do you measure impact? But ultimately, I have a sales background and I'm running a business. So, we certainly have metrics and things that we're tracking on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annual basis to make sure that the business is healthy, and that we can continue to grow. And we're servicing clients and we're adding solutions to it. I want to build a healthy business that supports, not only me, but now we've got other people that I feel some semblance of responsibility for, that are part of it, and we have partners and those kinds of things. But ultimately, if I get to wake up every day, and look forward to that day, and work with, and for people that I truly love, that's a good life.

And so, for me, a big part of this is freedom. It's life on my terms, it's work and life on my terms. So, I always say, I retired from work when I was 39 years old. And I went out on a journey to chase my dream. Sometimes I pinch myself because I'm living that dream. And look, that's not to diminish the challenges and that it's not always perfect. It's still work, but it's worthwhile to me and there's nothing else I'd rather be doing. That decision, that decision in January of 2009, that inflection point, as difficult a decision as it was, it has proved to be the single greatest professional decision of my life.

Don MacPherson:

Congratulations.

Ryan Estis:

Thank you.

Don MacPherson:

It wasn't without some obstacles.

Ryan Estis:

No.

Don MacPherson:

What was the biggest obstacle or the handful of big obstacles that you had to overcome?

Ryan Estis:

I think one of the biggest was just my own lack of certainty or self-confidence in doing something I had never done for the first time. I think that's certainly natural. If you're doing something for the very first time that you've never embarked on, and for me, it was entrepreneurship. I'd never started a company. I’d never worked on my own. Since graduating from college, I worked for a company and drove to the office. And so, overcoming some of the self-doubt and acquiring the confidence to know that, whatever the obstacle I was going to encounter, I have the skillset and the resolve to solve those problems when I'm in it. I think that's critical for any long-term successful entrepreneurial endeavor. I think it's one of the hallmarks of an effective entrepreneur or solopreneur is to place some bets, to take some chances, to know there's going to be adversity.

Anticipate that, but have the confidence and the resolve to know you can handle it when it shows up. And getting there was critical. And I think, naturally too, for a long time in this, for the first five, six years, there was a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. I had something to prove. So, there was a lot of comparison and there was a lot of thinking about so-and-so's doing this and I need to do that. I wanted to prove to everybody that I can make it

I just don't think about those things anymore. I'm not as motivated by what other people are doing and what they think of me or my business. The thing I think about now is, what do I have to give to my clients, to the people that are in the audience when I'm speaking, to the team that I'm working with? So, it really has been this journey for me of having something to prove to having something to give. And we have something to give, your life's a lot more rich and full too.

Don MacPherson:

Any regrets?

Ryan Estis:

Yeah. I have one. That I didn't do it ten years sooner.

Don MacPherson:

I wondered if that was going to be the case.

Ryan Estis:

I have a very good friend who's been an advisor to me on this journey and a very successful entrepreneur. When I quit my job, I called him and I said, “I don't know, I'm scared. I hope I made the right decision.” And he said, “You're going to have one big regret around this choice.” And I said, “What?” And he said, “That you didn't do it ten years sooner.” And he said, “And when you know that's the case, on the day you believe that in your heart, I want you to call me and tell me, “Today's the day.” And five years in, I made the call, and I said, “I made a huge mistake.” He said, “What?” “I should have done…” He said, “I told you.” But it's a good feeling. That's a regret I can live with.

Don MacPherson:

Had you started ten years earlier when you were 30 years old, would you have been as successful as you are now?

Ryan Estis:

That's a great question. I would say probably not. There were some important business lessons I think that I was provided through my 30s. We went through an acquisition. We were part of a Fortune 500 company. I got exposure to different kinds of clients working internationally. Things that just… And expanding my skill set and range, particularly as a leader, and getting more responsibility, becoming our Chief Strategy Officer. I think that skill and competency, perspective, and experience set, have been instrumental in my ability to evolve as an entrepreneur. I think the timing was right.

Don MacPherson:

When you're speaking to these big audiences, you must have people come up to you afterwards and say, “I want to do what you do. I want to start my own business. I want to create a following. I want to go and keynote and be on the big stage. Or I just want to start a business in general. You've been a successful entrepreneur.” Is that true? Do you have a lot of people who come up to you?

Ryan Estis:

Yeah. I think it's probably the question I get asked the most. Not in the room, right? But it's after in the hallway, or an email, or in a LinkedIn note. There's probably not a week that goes by that someone doesn't reach out asking me for perspective and guidance on my journey. So, it's something that I've written about and talked about a lot because I get asked about it a lot.

Don MacPherson:

And what do you tell people?

Ryan Estis:

There's a few things. Number one, for anybody that really wants to start a business or go out on their own, you have to have the uncomfortable conversation about cash. Every business, every lifestyle, and everybody is different, in a different situation. Just getting people really clear and giving them some perspective. And then I talk about the confidence too, the resolve that it takes, having the patience, having the right mindset, the discipline, the fortitude. I think what a lot of people battle, I mean, what their… A lot of times, I think, what people are asking me for is almost permission. They're asking me, “Is it going to be okay if I… I want to do this, but I'm afraid.” You somehow slayed that demon, you conquered it.

And I always tell people that's going to accompany you on this journey, but you have to look inside yourself and say, “Can you handle it? Can I live my life in a way while that's an accompaniment? Can I navigate the uncertainty?” Everybody's risk tolerance is different. I would say I'm not a big risk taker. I'm a fairly risk-averse guy. But I think what can give people confidence, I would say conduct little experiments. If you want to do consulting work, take on a project in your spare time. Start a side hustle. For me, fortunately, I was speaking as part of my corporate job.

I created an opportunity inside the context of my corporate environment to test my skill and competency in that arena so I could collect the feedback and help myself determine, is this something that would be viable for me to pursue? And the better I got, the more feedback I got. I even had a coach while… I had a business coach while I was in corporate America, helping me discern, “Hey, is this viable?” So, I studied it. I probably put two years of research work into studying consulting, training, speaking, content creation, writing before I actually made the move. I think that helped give me some measure of confidence. And then you just have to do it.

Don MacPherson:

So, you talked about three things. You talked about cash, how much money do you need and what sort of runway do you have?

Ryan Estis:

All of those conversations. Yeah, how much do you have? How much are you going to need? A big one for me is, what can I cut? And the answer is everything.?

Don MacPherson:

And you did, right? You cut-

Ryan Estis:

Everything. I played golf two or three times a week, every summer until the day I started a business, and I have not played a round of golf in nine and a half years. Now, some of that is symbolic to honor the sacrifice that's required to be an entrepreneur. Would I like to go play a round of golf tomorrow? Yes, but it's going to take five and a half hours, cost me 120 bucks by the time I get a hot dog and a couple beers after the turn and lose a few bets to my friends.

And it'd be a heck of a way to spend a nice Saturday, but startup entrepreneurs shouldn't be on a golf course on Saturday. It's just that, and so, yeah, the $120, that was cash into my business. Everything. I didn't go out to eat. Lunch was, and you know the story, lunch was two cans of StarKist Tuna. For a year, that was my lunch because it was cheap and it was fast, and I could get back to work, back to selling. Start time was 4:00 AM at the kitchen table. And I wasn't in my sweats. I was in a suit and tie. That became my mindset. Someone I was having coffee with, a mentor of mine, who described the likely outcome of my entrepreneurial pursuit. He said, “The likely outcome is going to be, you're going to start this business, spin your wheels for two years, make a bunch of mistakes, burn through your cash reserve, and then struggle to reenter the corporate America job market at the level you exited. That's the likely outcome of what you've just decided.”

And I said, “Look, oh, I'm really glad we sat down for coffee. I feel sick now.” He said, “But I'm guessing you don't want to be the likely outcome. You want to be one of the ones that make it.” I said, “I sure do.” And this was a seminal moment. He said, “Then act like your life depends on this moment because it truly does.” And that was when I got real serious about my choices, my cashflow, my savings, my spending. And it was a moment in time. I don't get up at 4:00 AM now and I don't put a suit on when I'm working from home. I don't do those things anymore. But in that moment of time, I think it helped give me the energy I needed to navigate my uncertainty and to create some momentum and move me forward.

Don MacPherson:

We're going to take a quick break. We're talking with Ryan Estis, writer, speaker, and consultant. When we come back, we're going to talk about the state of business today and how organizations are preparing themselves for a wave of technology transformation that is going to change the way we live and work.

This is the best time in human history to be alive. People are living longer, healthier lives, millions of people are escaping abject poverty every year around the world, and diseases that used to be a death sentence are on the ropes. But the world is changing quickly, too. Artificial intelligence, advanced robotics, 3D printing, the internet of things, and a whole host of other technologies will change the way we live and work. Is your organization ready for it? 12 Geniuses isn't just a podcast. We are an organization that educates leaders about the changing world of work, so you can harness new technologies, demographic changes, and new business models. To learn how 12 Geniuses can help prepare your leadership team to take advantage of the changes that will shape the next decade, check us out at 12geniuses.com.

Our guest today is writer, speaker, and consultant, Ryan Estis. We just heard about his entrepreneurial journey. And now we want to talk about the state of business today. Ryan, what's the profile of a company that typically hires you?

Ryan Estis:

I'd say they're predominantly large companies, but they vary greatly by category and industry. But I would say the lion share of the speaking and training work we're doing is with leadership teams looking to navigate change and influence culture, and sales teams that are trying to drive growth in their business, and compete for share of market.

Don MacPherson:

You talk about navigating change and shaping their cultures. What are some of the obstacles that they're seeing in terms of being able to create a culture that is relevant for the future?

Ryan Estis:

Well, so many organizations and leadership teams, I think, are resistant to change. Change is hard. It's hard for us as individuals and it's also hard to rally a large group of people with different ideas, attitude, expectations, perspective, to evolve in a way that gives the business an opportunity to thrive into the future. I would say that's top of mind in most of the organizations I'm working with, navigating change, evolution, transformation, disrupting themselves before the competition of marketplace does it for them.

Don MacPherson:

Is resistance to change one of the biggest leadership shortcomings that you're seeing at companies, or what shortcomings do you typically see among leadership groups?

Ryan Estis:

I would say resistance to change is certainly a big one. I would say, having some failure tolerance and how we manage around that is another big one. I think a lot of people today in business, they feel overwhelmed. A lot of the leaders that I've worked with, their schedules are meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, and then, by the end of the day, they have 250 emails and 17 voicemails that they have to go home and get through at night. And so, people, they're trying to survive and barely able to keep up with the work. And that doesn't create an environment that's right for innovation, and transformation, and experimentation, and learning, and growth, but all of those things are necessary for an individual and an organization to move forward. Time is certainly a huge challenge in corporate America today.

Don MacPherson:

Having 250 emails at the end of the day that you need to answer, that's very reactive, but certainly there are organizations that you're working with where that's not the case, where they are giving people an opportunity to think, and to innovate, and to create. What are those organizations doing differently, or how are they creating that environment to enable their leadership and their employees to have that framework or environment?

Ryan Estis:

I think organizations that are doing it differently recognize that time and time to learn is a strategic imperative. And so, they're investing in it aggressively. I mean, I've done a lot of work with AT&T, they invest hundreds of millions of dollars into learning and development. They have their own corporate university. They're bringing experts in from the outside to challenge their business model and their way of thinking and their way of conducting business. Providing that kind of environment is going to keep leaders in the learning lane and ultimately is going to be a catalyst for innovation in the business.

They're also tapping into their employee network, over 230,000 employees. They have a process, a strategic process that encourages employees to submit ideas that the organization can ultimately leverage to start a new business, to evolve a business model, to do something a different way that improves process, function, strategy, and ultimately the bottom line and the health of the organization. But I think it ultimately comes down to investing in people and creating an environment that produces the kinds of outcomes we're talking about.

Don MacPherson:

Over the last 10 years, we've seen amazing change, and we're going to see another wave of change coming. But over the last 10 years, social media has really shifted the game in terms of being able to communicate, access news, build audiences, have regular people build audiences. And then the other one that's been very transformational is just mobility. I was working with a company recently that had somebody who's a digital nomad. So, she actually travels with her husband to different countries around the world and works, and works fairly seamlessly.

Ryan Estis:

Right.?

Don MacPherson:

We didn't have digital nomads 10 years ago, but mobile technologies have enabled this. I see a wave of technologies with artificial intelligence, robotics, wearables, the internet of things, 3D printing, virtual reality, or augmented reality. These are going to change the way we live and work in a much more dramatic fashion than social media and mobile technologies. What are some of the organizations doing to prepare for these changes? Because I don't think that the average employee or the average citizen really understands how dramatically things are going to change.

Ryan Estis:

I would say that progressive organizations are certainly aware of and investing in an overall digitization strategy. And I think a lot of organizations are experimenting with evolving their business model to compete in this new hyperconnected, artificial intelligence machine learning world. Consumer expectations are changing. The marketplace is becoming more competitive. Competition is coming from everywhere. I mean, while we're sitting here recording this podcast, I can say, “Hey, Alexa, buy paper towels.” And she will. I think there are great examples of smart organizations that are doing things differently or experimenting with their business in order to evolve, to remain relevant, or ultimately use this time of transformation as an opportunity. Because the reality is there's going to be big winners and there's going to be some organizations that stay stuck in the status quo and get disrupted. And that's the reality.

Don MacPherson:

You talked about shifting business models. Can you give an example of how an organization or an industry needs to think about that or is thinking about that?

Ryan Estis:

Sure. I'll give you a couple. I just gave a keynote presentation at the National Auto Dealers of America Conference. I drive a Cadillac Escalade and I've had the car since 2006. And obviously cars and technology have changed a lot, but what's also changing is consumer expectations around that. It's inconceivable to me that I would drive around Minneapolis, Minnesota on a Saturday afternoon, go into five or six different dealerships, test-drive a car around the block, and then negotiate on price with a sales professional. I'm just not going to do that next time I purchase a car.

And Cadillac's an example. They actually are experimenting with a platform or subscription-based model, where for a flat fee, $1,800 a month, I can drive any car on their fleet, I can change cars up to 18 times in a 12-month period. I don't have to deal with any insurance. I don't have to deal with any maintenance. All I have to do is put gas in the car and give the keys back to my concierge when he comes and brings me out a new one. That's new and it saves me time, headache, hassle, provides convenience, flexibility, more choices, and I think an overall better experience. That's an example. Because I think the auto dealers realize that business is ripe for disruption in the sharing connected economy that we live in today,

Don MacPherson:

And Cadillac is testing this?

Ryan Estis:

Yeah, they're testing it in a couple of markets.

Don MacPherson:

And you said you had another example.

Ryan Estis:

Yeah. I mean, another example is… I'm working with Accor Hotels, and they've launched an initiative called Onefinestay where they're basically competing head-to-head with Airbnb. Now, is that going to cannibalize their traditional hotel business? No, I don't think so. They have 4,000 properties. They have thousands of people moving in and out of these properties every day. They have a built-in customer base that has a relationship with that brand. It would only be logical if they could extend that brand into the sharing economy in this other market. And why not have an entry into that category and compete for that other share? And so, it's just a way of thinking differently and evolving your business model. There are countless other examples of companies that are extending their brand, looking at a differentiated way of doing business.

Don MacPherson:

Yeah, I like that model because I travel a lot, like you do, and there are times when I want to stay in an apartment or an Airbnb type property, and there are other times when it's better to stay in a hotel. So, that's a smart business model. By 2020, it's estimated that more than half the leaders in the U.S. are going to be millennials. And we're seeing about 10,000 or 11,000 baby boomers retiring every day, which is amazing to me. So, we're really going to see a shift in experience related to leadership. What are one or two competencies that are most critical for these younger first-time leaders to have?

Ryan Estis:

To have communication skills, I think, is a big one. We talked about the advent of technology and it's creating all kinds of opportunities, but it's also creating some challenges. I think our ability to communicate, build one-on-one connected relationships, I think that's instrumental to leadership. It's a critical competency. I also think long-range thinking, having a vision of where the organization's going to be 5, 10, 15 years from now, and instilling confidence in that vision and having a clear strategy to get there. I think those are two mission-critical skills of leaders. Communication, confidence in the future and vision, I think, are pretty big ones for this next generation of leaders to have.

Don MacPherson:

This might be related to communication and prioritization. I mean, you talked about 250 emails a day, you can't give equal credence to each one of those.

Ryan Estis:

No, I think prioritization is absolutely critical. And just agile and flexible decision-making, right? The pace of business is so much faster now and it requires people to course correct, reinvent, and invent. I think that's another critical component of leadership too. I'll call it just invention. The way we've done business the last 10 years, probably isn't going to get us to where we need to go 10 years into the future. Twenty years ago, when I started in business, it was really, follow the playbook.

This is the prescription, and if we follow this formula, we're going to be able to reliably predict profitable growth by the end of the year until the playbook didn't work anymore. And we're simultaneously having to rewrite the playbook and execute at the same time. So, a leader has to have a foot in two worlds. You have to have the drive to execute and perform, given today's marketplace reality, while also, simultaneously, maintaining the discipline to continue to reinvent yourself and the business, and conduct experiments and iterate going forward.

Don MacPherson:

I want to ask you about sales. This is an area of competence for you. You've been a sales leader for many years and spoken at many sales conferences. What are some of the biggest ways in which sales have changed over the last decade? And before you answer that question, I think I've seen you cite a statistic where a prospect has 60% or 65% of the information that they need to make a decision before they ever talk to a sales rep. Is that accurate?

Ryan Estis:

That is accurate. Customers are more informed, more sophisticated. Yeah, and have actually, are over half of the way down to a decision before they ever contact an organization or a sales professional. That's a markedly different customer and they have to be approached differently than they were a decade ago. I mean, that's it. Simultaneously, I think it's easy for customers to get overwhelmed with information, suffer from the paradox of choice. Corporate buying decisions are taking longer. More people are touching and influencing those decisions. And so, it takes a more sophisticated approach to deal with a more sophisticated buying audience.

Don MacPherson:

So, when you say sophistication, what do you mean by that??

Ryan Estis:

Sure. Sales people, they have to be more prepared, they have to do more research. They have to understand at a deep level, not only their own product and solution suite, not only the competitive category, but the customer and why the customer needs the solution. And be able to interpret that in a way that resonates with the customer. Sales has evolved to a place where you have to be an expert and you have to know more, and be better prepared, and more disciplined. Really, it's less about the relationship and more about the impact you can have on what somebody else cares about.

Don MacPherson:

You might have answered this by that answer, but how do you see sales evolving over the next, let's say, decade?

Ryan Estis:

There's a statistic that there's going to be a million fewer B2B sales roles in North America by 2020 because corporate buyers are so frustrated with the experience of dealing with sales professionals. That once they have the information, they would rather just bypass the sales experience altogether and buy directly. I think the profession is going to continue to require the evolution of skills, expertise, information, and insight. And so, what I always tell sales people today is you've got to get closer to the customer.

I think the way we've led and managed sales organizations is fundamentally changing. All these ideas about measuring activity and outbound calls, I think, is going to continue to evolve and really move to a place where… Today's sales people, the best sales people, the DNA of a top producer really understands their customer and almost works more as a consulting extension of the customer's business.

Don MacPherson:

I'm going to put you on the spot and cite a statistic that I read from you, which is I won't have the exact figure, but about half of all salespeople, given the opportunity to work in a different job and make the same amount of money, would choose to leave sales. If you had a client, if that was the profile of a sales organization for one of your clients, what advice would you give to that CEO or that general sales manager?

Ryan Estis:

I would say that you've got a lot of people inside your sales organization that probably would rather be doing something else. And the likelihood is they're underperforming. I think the CEO, sales manager, you have a responsibility to put the best team on the field to compete for share of market every day. That's part of what good sales leadership is all about. There might be some performance management and some real courageous conversations required in the context of that sales organization to make sure that the individuals in it are performing at maximum capability.

Don MacPherson:

We talked earlier about your entrepreneurial journey. Let's wrap it up by talking about what you're doing to ensure your business stays relevant and avoids disruption.

Ryan Estis:

We continue to evolve our service model and offering. So, I would say it's a combination of conducting experiments. We're always conducting three or four little experiments in the business, so we can get feedback and iterate and evolve our model. We're trying to get closer to our customers by doing things around research and surveys. I think we'll add on additional services. And personally, I continue to invest in my own learning, self-study, reading, attending seminars, listening to podcasts. I'm a student. And I think the best teachers have to stay lifelong learners and be students. And so, that's a big part of the investment I make in both myself and my business to ensure that we're not only relevant in the 2020 world, but we can continue to grow and thrive.

Don MacPherson:

You've talked about conducting your own experiments. Can you list a couple of them that you have run recently or are planning to run?

Ryan Estis:

I'll give you three examples. One example is we made a pretty significant investment in marketing services this year. We've got an agency on retainer that's helping us create more content, more robust content. We just launched our public Facebook page. We're doing a lot more work with video. And so, that was an investment in order to extend our reach and expand our content so the message can get to more people. That's one that we're evaluating. Another is the research.

I mean, we just did a partnership and made an investment in research and survey work, that when we're doing an engagement with a client, we'll have the opportunity to deploy surveys and conduct quantitative research before an event, so we can customize the curriculum and make sure the content is relevant in a way that I think is markedly unique, certainly for keynote speaking, but also for training. That's the second one. And then what we've also… I also am delivering a program, one or a two-day program, in partnership with another speaker, Seth Madison, about leadership leading breakthrough performance. We rolled that out about 18 months ago.

I've delivered a handful of seminars and that's working well too, and that's been an exciting new opportunity. And I'll continue to experiment. Those are three that we've rolled out in the last 12 months. And we'll continue to evaluate those and add to it as it makes sense for our business.

Don MacPherson:

Ryan, listeners of the podcast can find you where online?

Ryan Estis:

At ryanestis.com, I’m pretty active on the blog, and also on Instagram too.

Don MacPherson:

Fantastic. Our guest today has been Ryan Estis. He's a keynote speaker, writer, and consultant. Ryan, thanks for being a genius today.

Ryan Estis:

Thank you, Don.

Don MacPherson:

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