Female Leadership in Urban Forestry: Cayenne Engel

In honor of Women’s History Month and ImpactNV’s 10-Year, 1000,000 Tree Plan, I recently sat down with Cayenne Engel , the Urban Forestry Program Coordinator with the Nevada Division of Forestry to get to know her a little bit better and to discuss trees and women in leadership. After ten years with the NDF, she is leaving at the end of this week to try her hand at something new. Thus it also seemed like a particularly apropos time to get her thoughts and to thank her for her contribution to urban forestry in Nevada. Here is what she had to say (content has been slightly edited for clarity and concision):?

What is your favorite word??

Right now, partnership; that’s what I’m craving.

What is your least favorite word?

Obstacles. That again is just speaking to this moment. I just think of it as an opportunity to figure things out. I very often encounter it used in the way of hitting and stopping as opposed to thinking of it as, “No big deal, it’s an obstacle, we’ll figure it out and do something different.”

If I really wanted to know who you are, what would you want me to know about you?

I think a lot of what I am motivated by in my personal and professional life is some version of service. I’m just generally motivated by doing good, doing no harm, doing decent things.

As it is Women’s History Month, I thought I should research the female foresters in the US and I found the following: In 1930, Margaret Cordelia Stoughton became the first woman with a forestry degree to be hired by the U.S. Department of Agriculture Forest Service as a forester (Kline 2021). The first female state foresters, Susan Bell and Kaleen Cottingham, were both appointed in 1992 (stateforesters.org). “According to a presentation from the 2019 Society of American Foresters’ National Convention, women make up 60% of undergraduate students enrolled in environmental programs, but only 23% of students enrolled in forestry programs” (ibid). And, in 2012, women comprised 38% of the Forest Service's 30,000 employees (USDA.gov). What comes to mind when you hear those statistics together?

That resonates. I think it’s largely, not due to competency or lack of interest in the topic or the other things we know about gender dynamics in all professions, but the culture. My experience was coming up in the world of ecology. I worked in forests but I was on the ecology campus at the University of Tennessee and there is a forestry school at the University of Tennessee and we never talked to each other. They are literally as far away from each other as they could be on campus. We were practicing forestry principles and looking at the same thing on the ecology side which was 70% female because ecology is perceived as more touchy-feely and forestry is seen as being about management.

It is probably changing quite a bit now but the wildfire world still has a lot of issues with hiring and retention due to culture as opposed to due to factors of the work environment. I’ve never felt that access is denied but the desire to be in a like environment is strong and when something is so male dominated historically, it can be awkward. Also there were some women at the top playing the part of “dudes”; they’re not going to get dressed up nice and they’re going to curse and be mean and that is still very much there in a lot of forestry environments. I don’t see that on the ecology side which is doing the same work in the same way.

What advice would you give to women/girls interested in a forestry career? How do we get more women and girls interested in a career in forestry?

Exposure and opportunities to exposure. The ability to get some of the more diverse courses in high school and college that show that this is a thing (you can do). I encourage anybody looking into a career in middle school, high-school, college, etc., to take advantage of any opportunities you see for internships (a lot of which will pay). And you’re going to have to deal with the discomfort of moving somewhere where you don’t necessarily want to move for a few months and living with people you’ve never known in an environment you don’t know. But you get exposure and it allows you to see what you like and don’t like. The advice is to feel the agency to take the leap.

What was your first job and what did that experience teach you?

My first job was babysitting and my next job was teaching Taekwondo. I got a job at a nature center and taught classes there. What would be my first real job…maybe I’ll go back to the idea of discomfort. Being in front of a group and instructing was not inherent to me but it was one of those things where you are good at something and people ask you to lead. I didn’t necessarily want to be in charge but I figured it out and it is so validating when you are able to give information. You learn to find the benefits in whatever you are doing. The ability to do a bunch of random jobs builds flexibility and resiliency.

You’ve been with NDF for over 10 years. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got to this level in the organization?

I worked as a research ecologist until I got to NDF and accepted a position as a Resource Management Officer which is basically a Regional Forester and I had a bunch of experience in the Mojave and was interested in working in natural systems. With the agency, working a generalist job, you do a lot of different things. I had some experience assisting in urban forestry and when the program coordinator position opened I was really excited about the opportunity to narrow the scope of work and dive deeper into something more targeted and that was really appealing to me.

I already knew a few of the people in the industry through helping out and building relationships made it easy to move into this position. I was already focused on the intent of the program and had in mind where I would want to take it and I could relay that information. I got here through thinking critically at the program level.

What is a lesson you learned the hard way?

The ultimate lesson is that you can’t assume that anyone else is going to play a role without explicitly defining that role before you get there. Try to think about what could go wrong and try to mitigate all the options for what can go wrong. Then you know how to respond and recover from it.?

How do you define leadership? Do you think being a woman influences your definition in any way? If so, how?

Leadership is being willing and interested in setting a vision, having some level of expectation and being willing to ask others to participate. To engage and enable others within set boundaries. Being a woman influences my definition because of the discomfort associated with the willingness to disappoint people and the willingness to jump in and say, “I disagree.”?

What is the hardest thing about your job?

The dynamics of being the accountable face of things going wrong. I hate disappointing people.

What are your top sustainability priorities right now? What are your biggest barriers?

For work, balancing requests that communities get more tree canopy while using water. It feels like conflicting goals and that’s really tough to prioritize between the two. The biggest barrier is having enough information. I don’t feel confident that we have enough information to advise people what to do to address heat and improve quality of life without causing more problems. I can’t reliably say, do this and you will get this outcome; it’s so complex. There are so many interacting factors and feedback loops. But we know that people appreciate trees. There is an emotional relationship that is instinctive and inherent and I love that about this field!

If you could have dinner with any three people dead or alive, who would you choose and why?

My bestie! She is in Atlanta and I never get to see her. I am so happy when I am with her. Shankar Vedantam is just fascinating and Adam Grant but then there is also Laurie Santos from Happiness Lab. Now I have listed too many people but they question everything and get to why we do what we do.?

When do you feel most alive?

Hanging out with my friends; that is just complete comfort.

Who has been your biggest mentor and what did you learn from them?

My next door neighbor growing up, was a 70-whatever-year-old woman who kind of became my granny. She had a very different culture and way of engaging the world than my family. She taught me how to interact with other people and changed the way I exist in the world.

What is the last thing you learned about yourself as a female in a leadership position that surprised you?

Honestly, that a lot of people respect me. This process of leaving my job and having people say, “Can you come work with us?” or “Can I recommend you to somebody?” I know people like me well enough and are happy to work with me but that enough other people in other areas recognize my competence.

What skill or trait are you currently focused on improving and why?

Clear communication and speech. Keeping my answers brief enough. Period.

What is the most important thing you didn’t do that you should have done?

Study abroad. I was worried about graduating a semester late and it was a missed opportunity so now I will not turn down opportunities.

When, if ever, do you find it difficult to ask for help?

Very frequently. Largely because of defiant self-reliance. Also, I don’t want to inconvenience somebody else when I know that I can figure it out. I don’t feel like my time is worth bothering someone else.?

How do you hope the NDF and/or USDA will change in the next five years?

I hope that we focus on outcomes and get better at identifying what we want to see and why and that takes an analysis of what is important as opposed to just doing something. Doing something is not enough of an outcome - it has to be something measurable that connects to benefiting a place and people