Exploring Strategic Brilliance and Leadership Tactics

I recently had the pleasure of meeting @Osagie Imasogie, a remarkably successful individual whose diverse career has encompassed the fields of law, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and finance. His achievements are a testament to his intellectual curiosity, innovative thinking, and ability to navigate and excel in various professional fields.

In this episode of Making Waves, Osagie Imasogie, Senior Managing Partner and Co-Founder at PIPV Capital, Chairman Penn Carey Law University of Pennsylvania, and Member of the President’s Advisory Council and Non-executive Chairman Quoin Capital, offers the principles and philosophies that have driven his success.

With a unique approach to business and leadership, Osagie talks about his ability to see opportunities where others may not and offers invaluable insights for anyone looking to excel in their careers. We explored how his background and experiences have shaped his perspective and how he distills complex ideas into actionable strategies that have led to groundbreaking ventures.

Osagie’s story is nothing short of inspiring and filled with wisdom that offers practical lessons and a fresh outlook on achieving success while making a positive impact. Watch the full interview and highlighted clips or listen to the podcast here:https://bit.ly/3XM5JxV

Making Waves is a series of conversations between New Ocean Health Solutions CEO Hal Rosenbluth and a variety of executives from a wide range of industries and areas of expertise.

Full interview:

Hal:

Welcome to Making Waves. Today I have the pleasure of meeting for the first time someone who I’ve always wanted to meet. He’s an unbelievably successful person. And his name is Osagie in the soggy. Welcome.

Osagie:

Thank you. Hal.

Hal:

You are so successful right now. You’re chairman of Coin advisors, which is fantastic. Leading up to that, you know, a renowned attorney. You’re in health care, you’re in pharmaceuticals. now you’re on the white House advisory board. I mean, my God, you know, first of all, that should give you a migraine to begin with. And but how do you become so successful?

Osagie:

I’m curious. I’m a very curious person. And, and that has allowed me the opportunity to, you know, scratch that itch as it should be. and so, I’ve been fortunate that I’ve been able to pursue that with a level of intensity. but I’ve enjoyed everything I’ve done. I think I’ve gone through 6 or 7 professionals now, and I’ve enjoyed every single one of them.

Hal:

Well, that’s great, because a lot of people go through one and they don’t enjoy it at all. Which seems to be more prevalent than not these days.

Osagie:

Yeah. Well, as I said, I’ve been fortunate in that regard.

Hal:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you mentioned curiosity and I think that’s critical. But also, there’s like intuition I think from highly successful people where they intuitively think I should go here, or this is happening there. Do you find intuition play a part in any of this?

Osagie:

Yes. everything is about perspective. You know, if you think about it, since we humans domesticated animals, one human has always charged another human for transportation, right? I give you a ride on my horse or my oxen pulled wagon. So, this is something that humans have done since we domesticated animals. Well, what? A couple of years ago, two young folks decided that, you know, that’s since we’ve always done what would be cool if we had a piece of software called a smartphone that allows us to summon when we want the transportation and we created a small company called Uber.

I mean, it’s all a question of perspective. And what I’ve really enjoyed is looking at what everyone else is doing and trying to have a slightly different perspective, and that’s what creates the opportunity, from an economic perspective.

Hal:

Yeah, I’ve always found that if I can identify an unknown unmet need and then fulfill it, you can run with it before anybody else figures out that it’s. Yeah, critically important. It’s very similar to what you’re saying.

Osagie:

Correct Hai, but I’ve actually distilled it to a three-step process. This what works for me may not work for everyone, but this is what works for me and it’s a sequential process. The first one is conceptualization, but you can come up with a good idea that’s actually the hardest. That’s the hardest part of it, because I think a lot of things that flow that I missed would have foiled.

That for me has been different perspectives. And that’s why it’s crucial to have a diversity of your thought processes and your experiences, because that’s what gives you perspective. Yes. Okay. If you have the same experiences as everyone else, you’re going to think more likely than not like everyone else. So that’s where the diversity of thought and experiences come in.

So, the first level is conceptualization. Now the second level is probably a limitation of my own skill set because for some strange reason, people cannot read my mind. I don’t know why, but they can read my mind. So, the next step has to be articulation. So, let’s say you have a great idea. Clap clap, clap for yourself. But that good idea by yourself doesn’t do anything.

You have to be able to communicate it to other people in a manner in which they resonate with it, and they understand it. So, the second step is, the communication, the articulation portion. If you get the first two correctly and the first step is relatively straightforward, it’s just grunt. Work is actualization. Now you make it happen.

Hal:

I know.

Osagie:

And what if you get either of the first two steps wrong. The third step becomes horrible because what the heck are you actualizing? And it’s very hard for you to build a team that is cohesive at that stage. because again, you’re not clear as to what you’re, actualizing. So that’s kind of what has worked for me.

Maybe I learned 1 or 2 more things on the articulation side, my experience has been that what people remember the most is if you can tell them a lovely story, they tend to remember that more than anything else. now my mother’s people, the Yoruba, the way they, crystallized their philosophy was not wrong in writing a lengthy treatise.

What they did is to encapsulate it in very intense short phrases, and that’s the way their philosophy was articulated. So, what I’ve been able to do is use those philosophical insights to start every company I’ve ever started.

And it makes it so easy because once I articulate it in that manner, the team knows what to do. So, for example, I started a company, a business with Glasgow SmithKline called GSK ventures. And what we, what my crazy idea was, was to set up a venture capital firm with no cash.

Hal:

Because it’s unusual.

Osagie:

That’s quite unusual. My good friend who’s passed away now, but good friend Taki Amada, who was chairman of R&D for SmithKline Beecham, when we first when I first had this conversation with him, he burst out laughing and said, oh, Sergei, I hate to point out there’s this word capital in venture capital. So, what the heck are you talking about?

You’re going to set up a venture capital firm with no cash. And I said, well, I think you guys are something that is worth more than capital, more than cash. And so, what the heck is that? I said, well, you terminate 95% of the drugs you start with. Unless you believe your termination process is 100% efficient, it means that by definition, you are terminating assets that have value.

I don’t think it’s 100% efficient. I’ve been involved in that process. I don’t think it’s 100% efficient. So, what I would like to do is take your terminated R&D assets and monetize them. And I think I’ve set up a matrix that I think I can identify what those are. So, he thought he was crazy enough and said, why don’t you come and do it here?

So, I set up this group and I took several hundred, mostly preclinical assets running through my proprietary matrix. Thirty-two assets popped up on the other end, and I successfully monetized thirty-one of them in a 36-month period. So, we took the zero-book value and created about $350 million of value out of it. Now. So how do you communicate that crazy idea to a group of highly sophisticated, highly trained pharmaceutical executives, most of them with MD, PhD or something like.

And then I remember one of the philosophical perspectives of my mother’s people, which is that the crumbs from an elephant’s meal is a feast for an ant.? I said, that’s the best way to articulate this. And the minute I explained that to them, everybody got it. the elephant is GSK massive multinational. The crumbs are this terminated, assets that are of no value to them.

The ants are all the small companies out there that would love to get a product with the pedigree of GSK. so, the philosophy behind the business became obvious to everyone that was involved. And that’s why we could do 3031 deals in 36 months.

Hal:

Fascinating. I mean, really fascinating. ?I’ve never come across a person who’s thought like that and then made it actionable. And because you are having to convince a lot of people and some of them have their own thoughts, there’s egos involved and so on and so forth, and you come along and have this, this brilliant idea that no one had ever come up with. And yeah, GlaxoSmithKline, benefited highly from that, I’m sure.

Osagie:

And we had fun. Yeah. Which I think is a crucial part of everything that I’ve ever pursued.

Hal:

I don’t think you can do something without having fun, especially if you’re working with people. I’ve always tried to create an environment where people have fun because if they’re having fun, they’re going to be that much more productive. We talk about all these different ways of productivity, etc., but people tend to not look at the human aspect in order to create an environment where people want to come to work, not have to come to work….

They want to work. I mean, they’re spending half of their life, at work. And I think companies have too much of an effect on people’s lives, and it’s not always a positive one. So, for you to be able to create fun, that along with everything else you said, it was exceedingly insightful. I think, yeah. Create success.

Osagie:

I’ve actually distilled it to four things. Again, I like putting things into boxes. what about it? the first one is concept, is, intellectual stimulation. I live a lot of my life between my two ears, and I know a lot of people do also. So, you’ve got to find something that is intellectually stimulating. And I think we too many times we ignore that.

I think it’s important that people have a level of intellectual stimulation. The second one is having fun for all the reasons you’ve said. It leads to creativity.

…when you’re having fun, you’re not at work, right? It’s just a question of how you’re spending your time. Right? And that changes your philosophical approach, because then you’re not worried about the clock. You’re just doing what you need to do because you’re having fun. the third one, I’m a committed capitalist, so you’ve got to make some bucks.

Okay? I think it’s important that people, be rewarded and rewarded well for the work they do. And then the fourth and final one is you do good, right? There are so many ways to be successful in this world. Why? You still do it good. And it’s always fascinating to me how many people presume that is an either or.

And it’s not. It’s never been an either or you. Why can’t you? There are so many ways you can really do good and do very well for yourself, financially. So, you know, it’s intellectual stimulation. Have fun. make some money and do good all at the same time. And that’s what I strive to do. And, you know, to some extent, I guess that has worked.

Hal:

Now, I know why I wanted to meet you. Yeah. Intuitively, I knew there’s a good person there with a brilliant mind, but I have never heard it articulated in such a way. So, I have very similar approaches to business. And it’s really fascinating. I’ve learned a lot. I don’t always learn a lot. but this, this will is it’s been embellished by me, if that’s the right word. And so, tell me about coin advisors.

Osagie:

It’s again, I use the word fun a lot. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a platform that allows us to, to pursue a range of interests that we have the broadest platform I have. so, you know, we look at transactions. I’m a little bit of a transaction addict. and we look at it across a very broad range.

So, for instance, we have clients right now that we’re representing just to show you how broad the ranges. We have clients right now that we’re representing who are interested in getting pieces of, English Premier League, Premier League soccer clubs or representing them on those kinds of deals. and then we have clients that are interested in biotech and life sciences.

So, it allows me the widest range. Yeah. Where I can pursue the interests that, you know, that I’m curious about. Yeah. And so, it’s a lot of fun. Got a great team of folks. they run it on a daily basis. I happen to be the chair, of the firm and the owner of the firm.

And, you know, I, I can participate or deep into any one of the deals that are going on. And so that’s fun.

Hal Rosenbluth Chairman & CEO New Ocean Health

Amazing. I don’t think I’ve ever met somebody who has. This is, almost unlimited range of businesses and thought and, you know, have a be a capitalist at the same time, but by doing good. Yeah. You know, being a capitalist by not doing good.

Osagie:

Doesn’t work is not sustainable, ultimately becomes a problem.

Hal:

Right. And you lose everybody that you enjoy because they want, they want to do good to. So today people are now moving around from one company to another. And they are looking for that right company. And many join a company and. A lot of times the last company they were with was created doubt and fear. And in business and hey have you how do you handle that.

How do you help people remove that fear? Because if you have, I always felt that if you could remove fear and anxiety and bureaucracy, a whole bunch of other things from, an employee’s mind, then there’s nothing that they have to focus on in business and clients have. You have you have you deal with doubters. Let’s say.

Osagie:

Interesting question in terms of how one deals with doubt or doubters, and fear, again, I can just talk about my approach to it. All right. And one way of thinking about I’ll give you two different approaches that I’ve, that I’ve used, the core of which is being authentic and giving people the opportunity to have fun.

I keep on coming back to that. So let me give you two, two examples. So, I mentioned GSK ventures early on. So not only that, I have that philosophical perspective from my mother’s people. They come from an endurance mill is the first one. And but then came the harder question, how do I build my team? Think about it.

I’m in a big pharma company in R&D. I’m a VP at R&D, and I want to build this team to do something that we’ve never done before, and to do it in a manner in which we’ve never done it before. And you know these guys and ladies have worked their whole life to, to do to do good. They all have PhDs, MDS and the like.

So how do you build a team and introduce this? What was perceived as a crazy idea to them? My first question was what could I come up with that would unify, that would lead to a self-selected group that would be unified? So, I came up with the crazy idea. It drove it all insane. But I walked into a working group that’s now the Lord, and I walked it through.

It drove them insane. I interviewed everyone using Star Trek. How’s that? So, I moved from a traditional Yoruba philosophical perspective to Star Trek. What? What do the two have in common? Well, if you like Star Trek, you are a self-selected group already. And what is your self-selection? It means that you have the capacity to conceptualize things. It means you have the capacity to see something that we’ve done in a particular way, and see it manifest itself in a completely different way.

And it also tells me, because they have been so many Star Trek captains with very different leadership styles.

Osagie:

It tells me what kind of leadership style you like. So, I interviewed everyone talking about Star Trek, and in the process, I got a lot of insight on the team. And when I built the team, because they were all people who were already interested in Star Trek, every position I gave them, I made reference to a Star Trek character.

So, the team was very cohesive. They all understood the roles that each person played. So, I had Vulcans. Okay, now anyone that is not Star Trek knows that Vulcans are scientifically oriented, the logical creatures. Okay, well, those were the folks who did all the R&D reviews for the assets. We got. I had for ranges. Again, if you enter Star Trek, you know that the Ferengi only cares about commercial issues and money and the like.

Well, those were the guys who went out to get me, my clients who would invest these assets in. I had, Counselor Troi, who was a psychiatrist. Okay. Who was my, my chief executive officer. I had a number one. I mean, so we do presentations that will have their formal, formal, titles.

Director of Swanson. And then in parentheses. Ferengi. It was a blast. They had fun. We had fun when we presented to external parties that were. It became an obvious question of dialog. It was a wonderful icebreaker. And when the external parties had people who were Trekkies, they just gelled. I mean, was fantastic. That’s the only reason we could do 31 deals in 36 months.

No one has ever done that in the industry.

Hal:

But so, you think differently than most people I’ve come in contact with over the years and I’ve, you know, met practically, with 15% of fortune 100 CEOs and things, things like that, and a lot of business with all the major corporations, and not only in the States, but overseas. But I’ve never met a chairman or a CEO that thinks like you.

It’s so unique and obviously it’s created great success. But more importantly, probably to you, although nobody can read your mind.

Osagie:

It’s my failure. Yeah, I sure figured out the way to do that.

Hal:

You feel good about what your colleagues and you are doing and how it helps society in general in a bigger way. How do you make this a better world?

Osagie:

Absolutely. Why wouldn’t we want to I mean, I was, I was and that’s so fun. That should be the default. Why wouldn’t we want to? What joy do I get if someone else is unhappy or frustrated or suffering? How does that give me joy? None. It gives me tremendous joy when I see you laughing and I mean kid around, you know?

So that structure, just using something that took down the fear and the concern, allow them to feel that this is something they knew they were Trekkies and allowed them to understand intuitively what we were trying to do. And that worked extraordinarily well. The other thing I that I always do, which again, I think is helpful to deal with fear many times concerns, and fear is because of the unknown.

And when people don’t know things, they get really afraid. Yeah, okay. A lot of fear is, just that lack of understanding. So back to my models, people. They have this wonderful philosophical perspective that is on three levels that is very easy to understand and addresses many things that lead to fear. It has to do with your hand.

So do this with me. Look at your hand. Even notice something interesting about your hand. None of your digits are the same.

No. Yeah. Your pinky, your forefinger, your thumb, your opposable thumbs, without which you could not use tools. None of them are the same. So, guess what? Nature has already built in diversity. Your hand.

If all your fingers were the same, you couldn’t function right. The second thing, notice something really cool. Each of your digits is actually independent, so each one can function on its own. So, nature says not only should you have diversity, but there should be independent of thought, of action, of perspective. Here’s the third part. That’s really cool. So, what holds these digits together?

Oh your palm. But something about your palm. It’s much bigger than your individual digits. So, it’s possible that you can be independent.

Hal:

Yes.

Osagie:

Different perspective but share a common objective. That would be a business that could be a country, that could be a philosophy, that could be a cause. But that common philosophy, that common theme is bigger than each one of you. And is your hand. The most powerful? Is in two seconds as a handshake. What’s a fist? In both settings, all your digits are your palm. Walk together. Do you understand that?

Hal:

Yes

Osagie:

What are you afraid of? Right? You want to build teams that are diverse. Diversity is not a question of kindness. It’s. It’s the smartest thing to do. And how do you know? nature has told you that.

Hal:

Right.

Osagie:

Diversity gives you strength. How do you know? Nature has told you that. And if you understand that, you can have a pinky and a little possible thumb in the same hand, what are you afraid of? If I. Talked about tomato and you talked about tomato, what’s the problem? And so, it’s just shifting people’s philosophical perspectives. And I like to approach that from an intellectual perspective.

If you can make people understand, then it’s a better thing than to push it down that. Right.

That’s like two examples of how about the question of fear? Most fear is born out of ignorance.

Hal:

With the advent of AI, we talked a little about fear and so on, so forth. A lot of people fear it. A lot of people embrace it. A lot of people don’t know what the hell it is, where it’s going, what’s going to happen to a world. But let’s narrow it down to the field of law. And how do you think I can affect that profession?

Osagie:

The question of AI and the impact…

Hal:

On the law.

Osagie:

I’m going to try to give a succinct, response to your question, but it’s important that I start off by making it crystal clear that most people do not even understand the concept of AI. So, it’s a phrase that we use

Osagie:

That most people do not understand. And it would take hours just to discuss what the heck I eat. Right? but as to what the impact is on the law, it’s not a future tense discussion, only a past and present tense discussion is already affecting the law, and it’s affecting it in a profound way. So let me let me give you three perspectives on that.

One of the most easily available, relatively low level in the world of AI. AI platforms. Right?

Deep Fake. Okay, okay. GPT the first version of it. Had a 30% pass rate for the New York bar. Now, one of the most difficult bars to pass in the US is the New York Bar. The fourth version, Gpt3 for, had a 90 something percent pass rate for the New York bar.

The time period between Gpt2 one and GPT two for its roughly 18 to 24 months. So, if a piece of software has a 98% pass rate to one of the most difficult bar exams in America, what does that tell you? It’s already had a profound impact on the law, right? The second kind of example. So, I put, you know, I happen to be, well, I’ll get back to that.

So, I play around with this, that just, you know, it’s fun. I’m curious. So, I said to GPT four, draft this kind of contract, a contract that I know informally that I know very well. Okay. I mean, in, you know, less than a minute, I have a contract, but I took a look at it. The quality of the contract is what if first year associate, fresh out of law school, who just joined a law firm.

That would kind of be the first draft, right. So, there were things the structure was kind of there, but there were things missing. And that this I would rephrase that kind of stuff. But here’s what struck me. That took a minute or so for GPT four to do that. And it cost me, frankly speaking, virtually nothing. Right?

The first-year associate from a top law school in a major New York law firm pulls down 250 K. So run the numbers This has been a. what do I do in my first year. So, here’s what I get. Okay, so what we’ve done, I happen to be the chair of the board of, University of Pennsylvania, Carey Law School.

What we’ve done in the realization of the, of the reality of AI is we’ve started an initiative which we called, the future of the profession. And we are actually having some of the best minds in the world looking at what would be the long-term impact. What is the immediate and long mid-term and long-term impact of AI for the legal profession?

Because we are producing some of the smartest young lawyers, and we owe a duty to them to make sure that we are preparing them to function and be extraordinarily successful, as they’ve always been in this new world where AI is part of the legal profession. What I can tell you is this it’s not. And that’s why I said at the beginning that the funding I could take a long time.

What I can tell you is that most people think it can do much more than it can. the other thing that I do now is that it has hallucinations. It literally has hallucinations. It makes things up. Okay. So that is what has led to some difficulties for some lawyers who were a little bit, lazy and careless.

So, there are cases already where lawyers on opposite sides of a of the matter, one group of lawyers decided to use an AI to help them write their brief, and they told the AI, the theory of their case. So, one of the I do you write a brief for them that would be in favor of their position and a mix of cases to satisfy the requirement, right?

Not only does it make it up, but it also puts in the name of the judge who decided the case. It gives you a legal reference to the case. It does the whole thing. So, these lawyers are very happy. This is a wonderful brief is very powerful. It really you know article is our position. Well and then submit it to the courts without reviewing with that going to check the cases themselves.

Well, lo and behold the lawyers on the other side, they get this brief. The wow, this is powerful. It’s really against our position. So of course, they have to go and read the original cases to see whether they could find, an argument within the case that could that would rebut this powerful brief. Lo and behold, they couldn’t find the case.

Hal:

Yes.

Osagie:

They realize that they were all made up. Right. So, lawyers got sanctioned for that. And what I love, what the judge did, was that it made them apologize to all the other judges who have been referenced in the middle of cases.

All right. So, I right now hallucinates and therefore there are limits to what it can do. So, I don’t think we’re done as a legal profession. I think we still have a great career. you know, you can do still a great career. like I just said, we have to modify to accommodate this new reality, so I can talk more extensively about it, but it is alive.

It’s already affected the profession. we’re going to have to figure out how best to manage through it, but we’ll manage through it.

Hal:

It’ll never take away the emotional intelligence of an attorney in addressing whatever the case is, the jury, the judge, because I would suspect that a lot of decisions are made beyond case law. They’re made for other reasons. And that gives human beings the opportunity to sway decisions based on their understanding of who’s thinking what.

Osagie:

Correct. And it will never take away. Oh, I know how. Let me call how they have a perspective on this.

Hal:

Yes.

Osagie:

You would never take AI with that into personal relationships. Exactly. It’s so crucial both in preparing your case in articulating your case to the jury or to the judge. and, in thinking through the angles, it’s a useful tool

But I don’t think it will replace certain aspects of what lawyers do. There are things that lawyers do right now that it would definitely replace.

So, some of the grunt work, for instance, takes something like discovery if you have litigation.

If the other side gives you 50,000 pages of material to review, I think I could go through that much more efficiently. Yeah, but a young associate, but the law firm makes less money. but you’d probably get a clearer, analysis of the data. I’d like you so again. Oh, we’re going to figure out how best to work with it.

But I don’t think it replaces, the courses that the very good lawyers do. Yeah.

Hal:

Good. Well, I can’t thank you. I can’t thank you enough–you’re one of those brilliant and fascinating people I’ve ever run into. And I’m flabbergasted. I’m impressed. If you want to learn more about this conversation, you can go to New Ocean health.com, learn more about, Coin Advisors and more about the fascinating individual who. I’m so grateful I had the opportunity to visit with today.

Osagie:

Well, thank you so much for inviting me. And you, as usual, are way too kind with your words. But thank you very much.

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