Interview on being Indonesian and Navigating Sales with Mutiara Rosalin

Last Updated: April 21, 2023

"I want to live in a world where people are not afraid of someone else’s difference, and not afraid of their own. For that to happen, we need to tell our stories and listen to the stories of others." - Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand politician and Prime Minister.

The Beginnings

Mutiara Rosalin “Tiara” identifies as an Asian, Indonesian, straight, business woman. She speaks Bahasa Indonesian, English (Business and Casual), and is learning French and Italian. Tiara’s partner originates from Italy and, as she says, learning Italian is a fun endeavor because “this is the only way I can speak with his mother.”?

In Indonesia, Bahasa is often used in combination with other words to specify a particular language, for example, "Bahasa Indonesia" refers to the Indonesian language, while "Bahasa Inggris" refers to the English language.?

L: Ok, Ciao Bella

T: Ciao Bella

Tiara is a highly educated and professionally experienced individual. She grew up in Indonesia but has traveled around the world. She has worked in the banking industry in the southeast Asian market for many years and has worked in the International Environment, including Middle East and European markets.?

L: How did you end up in Lyon?

T: It was destiny I guess. I knew I wanted to get my MBA and I got accepted into Emlyon. And now I just enjoy life here.

L: Ok, that’s reason enough.

She is also a graduate of Emlyon Business school receiving her International MBA specializing in marketing and digitalization. Currently working as a Business Development representative and has worked as an MBA consultant with iRobot and has over 9 years working as a business and sales manager in the banking industry. Finally, but not least, she is a friend. A friend to me and to many others. She is known for her compassion, kind heart, and joyous spirit. Very professional, dependable and a hard worker.

T: I am from Indonesia, but I currently live in Lyon (France). I currently work for a software development company, and I sell software for the Asian market and especially the Arabic market. We target small and medium enterprises.?

My project is also taking a French class.? It is very difficult, I have been learning for a year and my French really hasn’t improved, it is a problem” says Tiara.

L: (I quickly reminded her) My French is still a struggle.??

T: Yeah!

We both broke out into laughter.

T: I am also now running a small business. This is a new business that I am doing with my friend who is also Indonesian here in Europe.

L: Oh, Wow! You have a new business now!?

T: It’s a tour guide business. I have a friend, an Indonesian who is living in Germany, and another, living in Switzerland. They have been running it for a year. I just joined them in the last 6 months. We are targeting Indonesians who want to travel to Europe and need a guide.

We plan everything for them, pick them up, give them tours and everything.

L: Well congratulations Tiara! I didn’t know that. That is super cool, and I can't wait to share it with other people.

And share I will. Here is a little information about their business. Go check them out on Instagram @guidesantai.?

Tour Guide Industry and DEI

I had a peek at the research and data on the evolution of the tourism industry, from a business growth standpoint and also from a DEI view. I found that due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the tourism industry was heavily impacted worldwide, (I'm sure we all recall images of empty tourist locations while we were sitting at homes on lock down) including in Europe and Indonesia. The tourism industry had a significant drop in business, but in recent years it has been making a comeback.?

The situation continues to evolve and tour operators and guides are adapting to the new reality by implementing various measures, technology services, and flexible options. In general, the industry welcomes and encourages diversity, and it's common to find tour guides of different genders, ages, and backgrounds.?

However, it is important for companies in this industry to remember and be aware that representation matters, and cultural sensitivity is essential.?

One important aspect of DEI in the travel guide industry is ensuring that tour guides are representative of the communities they serve, including diversity in terms of gender, ethnicity, language, and culture. This can help create a more welcoming and inclusive environment for travelers from different backgrounds and provide a more authentic and accurate representation of the local culture and history.

Another important aspect of DEI in the travel guide industry is training tour guides to be culturally sensitive and respectful, and to be able to provide meaningful and informative experiences to travelers from diverse backgrounds. This includes educating tour guides about cultural differences and sensitivities, as well as strategies for communicating effectively with travelers who may have different cultural norms and expectations.

Especially with the industry primary focus is on providing excellent service to clients and creating a memorable and enjoyable travel experience regardless of the gender of the tour guide.

"I have discovered in life that there are ways of getting almost anywhere you want to go, if you really want to go." - Langston Hughes

L: What is your passion(s)?

T: My Passion!?! Ok.? (Laughter)

T: I have experience in banking, sales within this scope, and now I am working with sales but less in trying to consistently hit targets. But now, I really like the work life balance. Here (France) the level isn’t so focused on meeting targets independently at monthly intervals. Now here, my target is within a 6 month timeframe. So if I don’t hit the target this month, then that’s ok, I have next month and work harder to hit it.

McKinsey & McKinsey, February 14 2022 report, Supporting employees in the work-life balancing act, stated that “many workers—particularly women and those in dual-career couples—are exhausted by the demands of work and home. About 42 percent of women report feeling burned out (along with 35 percent of men).”?

In recent years, work-life balance has become a top priority for both employers and employees, especially women. And with the COVID-19 pandemic shaking up our work routines, it's even more important to strike a balance between our work and personal lives.

Smart employers know that providing work-life balance benefits can help them attract and retain top talent. Offering flexible scheduling, remote work options, paid time off, and on-site childcare are some of the ways that companies can support their employees' work-life balance. And when employees feel supported and valued, they're more likely to be engaged and productive.

For women, work-life balance is especially critical because they often have to juggle multiple responsibilities, including caring for their families and households. This is especially true for single women who don't have a partner to share the workload with. Policies that support work-life balance can make it easier for women to manage their work and personal lives.

The question I ponder is will the demand for work-life balance continue to grow and will employers rise to this challenge or revert back to previous practices.

L: Ok, so it is more flexible. You have room to meet your targets. So, is there a cultural difference between working in Singapore and Indonesia compared to France. Do you feel there is a cultural difference for you??

T: Oh yes. In Asia, I feel it is more competitive and they want everything fast. You need to solve the problem now. But here in Europe, maybe it is just France, they are more flexible. You can offer different options to solve problems and you take a few days. But in Asia (not all but majority of my clients) they want problems solved now!

L: Right, ok yeah, it reminds me of my time in the UAE. I found that the majority of my experience was laid back in the business relationship. You built the relationship over time. But the majority of those relationships wanted something very particular, you needed to find that particular thing. (To be clear this is a generalization and speaking to my experience only. Every human and company will and can be different.)?

T: Yeah! Yes, that's true. They want that, they want that. It can be a bit more difficult to work in the Middle East market for me. I find in Asia I know I can give attention and be more empathetic and they will be accepting. But for the majority of my Middle Eastern clientele it is not as dependent on the emotional relationship. I need to show action.?

L: So, then the question that is sticking in my mind, how do you feel that your identity plays a role in your positions or in the situations that you explained before??

T: No, I do not feel my identity plays a role.?

L: Ok, sure. Is this also true within your relationship with your coworkers or business transactions??

T: Oh ok, I understand now. Yes, it doesn’t really play a role for me, I do not feel it does. But I do have times where I have had clients that want to hear a male give the solution to the client problem (the same solution she had given to the client). So, after we give the solution, my coworker, woman, and I will pass it on to our male colleagues to make sure the deal is made. I feel sometimes the client does not want to be as direct as to their needs with us (women) but if I put a male counterpart on the phone then they will be direct with them and tell them what they need.

Microaggressions

This situation that Tiara is a common problem in the majority of cultures around the world. While each individual is affected by this type of scenario differently it is important to understand what is happening. Companies are actually experiencing a reduction in work productivity due to these types of situations and could see improvement in the work culture, employee engagement and the team's morale if they are addressed.?

This illustrates a type of microaggression that is based on gender bias, where a client expresses a preference for a male colleague to provide a solution or close a deal. This type of bias is often subtle and may not be immediately apparent, but it can have a significant impact on workplace dynamics and individual experiences.

Microaggressions are often the result of implicit biases that can be deeply ingrained in individuals, social norms, and organizations. They can take many forms, including statements, behaviors, and assumptions that reinforce stereotypes or discriminatory beliefs. While microaggressions may not be intended to be harmful, they can create a hostile or unwelcoming work environment, particularly for individuals from underrepresented or marginalized groups.

Research suggests that women, particularly women of color, are disproportionately impacted by microaggressions in the workplace. While specific statistics on microaggressions in the workplace for women may vary depending on the study, the following data points offer some insights:

• A study by the Center for Talent Innovation found that women who experience microaggressions at work are more likely to experience health problems, such as insomnia and high blood pressure, as well as lower job satisfaction and decreased engagement.
• According to a survey by LeanIn.Org and SurveyMonkey, 60% of women reported experiencing unwanted sexual advances, while 36% reported being touched, kissed, or groped without consent at work.
• In a study by the American Association of University Women (AAUW), nearly half of women of color reported experiencing microaggressions at work based on their race or ethnicity, compared to 16% of white women.

To address microaggressions in the workplace, it is important to raise awareness and understanding of the issue, and to take steps to create a more inclusive and equitable workplace culture. This could involve training and education to help individuals recognize and address their own biases, as well as implementing policies and practices that promote diversity, equity, and inclusion. Additionally, creating open channels for communication and feedback can help to identify and address microaggressions when they occur. By taking these steps, organizations can work to create a more respectful and supportive workplace for all employees.

L: Do you find that challenging? Or see it as an obstacle?

T: Yeah sure, the types of clients I have to call more frequently and really pull out of them what they want. The client makes a border. So, in these cases, we call a male counterpart.?

Hybrid Work Model

L: So, you have worked in these different markets. And I know it was in person in Asia but now here in Lyon, are you 100% online. What is the differences in working now for you?

T: Yes, in person you can really read a client's body language. But now through Zoom or virtual calls you can only see their face. It makes it a bit more difficult. But now, as things are becoming more common, the clients want to do Zoom even though we have representatives in the field there in Dubai.?

L: How about personally? Do you feel there is a difference for you?

T: Oh yes! At first it was weird but now I can work from anywhere! I can dress how I want, put on a little makeup. You can travel and work, you can go wherever. I really like this! But now I noticed a lot of companies are starting to ask people to come to work at the office or hybrid. 2 days from and 3 days at the office.?

L: Do you feel this would be challenging for you personally? Professionally?

T:?I would be ok with hybrid. But ok, let me give you the minuses and the plusses. I get to see my colleagues in person and really understand the team dynamic. It is easier to solve problems when you have worked together in person because you understand the person more. So at least when you meet them, you understand their working habits. So, later it becomes easier to work with them over Zoom.?

The hybrid work model, which mixes remote and in-person work, can have benefits and challenges for DEI in the workplace. On one hand, remote work can offer more flexibility for employees with disabilities or caregiving duties, but it can also create visibility and resource disparities. To overcome these challenges, companies can provide equal access to resources, promote clear communication, and offer training to raise awareness of potential biases in a hybrid work environment.

But then one must also consider the benefits and challenges for employees that are single and partnered women, with or without children? Culture? Geolocation? Responsibilities? Privileges and disadvantages??

For example, women with children may benefit from the flexibility to work from home, which can help them balance work and caregiving responsibilities. This can also benefit partnered women who may have shared caregiving duties with their partners. Additionally, remote work can provide a more equitable work environment for single women, who may not have access to the same level of caregiving support as their colleagues. Hybrid work can also help reduce the gender gap by promoting a more inclusive work culture that values the needs of employees, including women.

• A FlexJobs survey found that 78% of employees who work from home report higher job satisfaction and better work-life balance. 97% of workers want some form of remote work post-pandemic, with 58 percent preferring to be full-time remote and 39 percent opting for a hybrid work environment (source: CISION)
• ?Microsoft’s 2021 Work Trend Index, a study of over 30,000 people in 31 countries, found that 73% of respondents desire remote work options. (source: HBR)
• A study found that hybrid work models can help promote diversity by making it easier for underrepresented groups to join the workforce, especially those who may face barriers such as transportation or relocation (source: McKinsey)

Overall, the hybrid work model has the potential to create a more inclusive and equitable work environment for women across different life stages and family structures.

Thoughts on Gender Equality

L: What are your thoughts on gender equality?

T: In my previous job?

L: Wherever and whatever you want to talk about??

T: Based on my experience, I do not feel I experience any inequality. But in Indonesia I worked for a woman owned and woman led company.? But based on the experience of my friends who work in government, they find it difficult to ascend to the position of leader, just because they are women. However, there are also many women who have the opportunity, but do not climb the career ladder, because they feel the need to balance work and childcare. They prefer flexible working hours. Perhaps the solution is to reform policies to improve gender equality by forcing companies to provide more flexibility for working women.

Does working at a women-led firm make a difference?

There is a growing body of research that suggests that women-led firms may be associated with higher levels of gender equality and lower levels of gender bias compared to firms led by men. One reason for this may be that women leaders are more likely to be aware of and sensitive to issues of gender inequality and may be more inclined to prioritize diversity and inclusivity in their hiring and promotion practices.

For example, a study by the Peterson Institute for International Economics (PIIE) found that companies with more women in leadership positions were associated with higher levels of gender diversity in the workforce and higher profitability. The study also found that companies with a female CEO were more likely to have policies in place to promote gender diversity and were more likely to offer flexible work arrangements. PIIE also found that “Firms with women in executive officer and director positions post higher annual profit margins than those without female leaders. Between 1997 and 2017, firms with at least one female director or executive officer consistently reported larger profit margins.” (Han, May 7, 2020).?

Gender inequality remains prevalent in the workplace in Indonesia and women often face discrimination in the hiring process, pay and promotion gaps, and limited access to family-friendly policies, such as flexible work arrangements and childcare support. Sexual harassment and gender-based violence are also significant concerns for women in the workplace. Additionally, women are underrepresented in leadership positions, limiting their ability to influence decision-making and promote more inclusive and equitable workplace cultures.

Addressing these issues could look like implementing policies that promote equal opportunities and pay, as well as creating a safe and supportive work environment for all employees, regardless of gender

While it is unclear if working in a woman-led firm is the cause for the differing experience between Tiara and her friends, what was clear was that all of them had an understanding that work-life balance is of importance to them. We could dive deeper into discussion here, but it deserves more attention and research than I could provide at this moment.??

Tiara and I continued our conversation from this point but I am sorry to say I will have to wrap it up here!?

I had a lovely time learning about Tiara’s culture, experience and talents. She was very informative and it was interesting to see our shared and differing experiences. I will share, in a later posting, the? interesting findings of current policies and initiatives taking off in Indonesia on the topic of gender equality.?

But I can’t just let you go without at least giving you some examples of globally recognized Indonesian women and gender queer persons and their notable accomplishments. Go check them out and learn more about Indonesian culture and its diverse people.?

T: Oh I really like Tsamara Amany.? She is a young politician from the millennial generation, she is brave in voicing her opinion even though she opposed parliament, she has a program to empower women in Indonesia.?

Tsamara Amany

Tsamara Amany is an Indonesian public figure, politician, and activist. She was born on November 10, 1984, in Jakarta, Indonesia. Amany is known for her advocacy work on various issues, including gender equality, environmental sustainability, and human rights.

Here are a few more I found in my research and thought I would share. Have a lovely day all.

Putri Ayu Silaen - A prominent Indonesian activist and social entrepreneur who founded the sustainable fashion brand "Bunun." She is a vocal advocate for women's rights and environmental sustainability, and has been recognized by various international organizations for her work.

Tita Larasati - A genderqueer Indonesian activist and artist who uses their platform to promote LGBTQ+ rights and awareness. They are also the co-founder of the Jakarta Feminist Discussion Group and the author of several books on gender and sexuality.

Fifi Aleyda Yahya - An Indonesian journalist, author, and entrepreneur who founded the social enterprise Female Daily Network, which includes a popular online platform for women's lifestyle and beauty content. She is also a vocal advocate for women's entrepreneurship and has been recognized by various international organizations for her work.

Dian Sastrowardoyo - A prominent Indonesian actress and producer who has won multiple awards for her roles in Indonesian films, including the critically acclaimed "Ada Apa Dengan Cinta?" She is also a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador and advocate for children's rights.

Kartini - Raden Ajeng Kartini - was a prominent Indonesian national heroine who is widely celebrated for her advocacy of women's education and rights in the early 20th century.