Episode 193: Brené Brown

Listen to our recent episode with Brené Brown.

We discussed her experience as a leader, the concept of metacognition, and the leadership skill of creating space between stimulus and response.

If you don't have time to listen, read the highlights below. ??

1. Every day is leg day as a leader ??

Brené isn't one to sugarcoat the realities of leadership. "I have three to ten brutally difficult conversations a day as a leader," she shared. It’s not fear that hinders courageous leadership; it’s the armor we put on to shield ourselves from that fear.

In her book Dare to Lead, she distinguishes between daring leadership and armored leadership. "We're all afraid all the time," Brené said, but it’s the armor that prevents bravery. The challenge is to intentionally keep the armor off, name the fear, and make decisions that align with our values and beliefs about leadership.

Leadership, she notes, is like "every day is leg day." It’s tough, constant work that requires focus and resilience.

Brené tries her best to stay curious and not defensive.

When things go wrong, her first question is, "Walk me through, help me understand," genuinely seeking to understand her role in the situation.

Brené emphasizes the importance of looking for system failures over personal failures. Maybe the person wasn’t set up for success due to a lack of context or too many competing priorities. "Staying curious and not defensive, showing up to get it right, not to be right," she said, are crucial aspects of daring leadership.

Every day requires leaders to check whether they are driven by ego or courage, focusing on curiosity, humility, accountability, and ownership. It’s hard work, but essential for true leadership.

2. The concept of metacognition ??

Brené dove into the concept of metacognition. "I know it's a fancy term and it's hard to define, but I think it's everything," she said.

Metacognition is about the ability to see yourself somewhat objectively and with humility. Brené believes that meaningful conversations can't happen without this self-awareness.

She explained, "If the three of us worked together and you didn’t agree with me, and there's a subtext, and you say to me, 'Can you walk me through that decision?' I would be happy to do that, but I want a hard pause." Brené emphasized the importance of addressing underlying feelings and assumptions in such situations.

"The story I'm making up," she continued, "is that you're less curious and more judgmental and pissed off about the decision I made. And that feels like a very hard jumping-off point for me for this conversation. It doesn't feel genuine."

For Brené, acknowledging these internal narratives is crucial for authentic and productive dialogue. This level of self-reflection and honesty paves the way for genuine curiosity and understanding, essential components of effective leadership and collaboration.

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3. When arguments devolve into story versus story ??

She shared a powerful lesson she learned from her coach, Courtney Smith, that has influenced her approach to both work and personal relationships. "Anytime an argument devolves into story versus story—'No, here's what happened,' 'No, this was what your tone was'—there's no winning," Brené recalled Courtney saying.

She emphasized that in such situations, the only irrefutable fact is how someone felt in that moment.

Brené admitted to being direct and having a tendency to argue like a lawyer, meticulously recounting details: "At 3:32, you leaned your head upright and said these words with this tone. Did you mean it, or do you change your mind now?"

This approach, she realized, isn’t productive. Instead, acknowledging feelings without contesting the other person's story creates a path toward understanding and resolution.

Brené’s insight highlights the importance of validating emotions over debating facts in conflicts.

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4. Leadership is a lot like packing parachutes ??

When asked about the most difficult concept to implement as a leader, Brené shared, "I mean, there's probably 100 things. It's not just one thing." As someone who is both a person and, reluctantly, a brand, she likens leadership to packing parachutes: "If you pack a hundred parachutes and you get 90 of them right, 10 people still die."

For Brené, leadership is about straddling the line between excellence and building systems that accommodate our imperfections without becoming perfectionistic and frozen. "Excellence versus perfectionism is really hard," she admitted.

Every day, she must be decisive yet thoughtful, curious yet directive.

She highlighted the tension of paradoxes, noting, "Two things can be true. This is a really great person, but they don't have the skillset to do this job and deliver what we need to add value to the company." Leadership involves making tough decisions and can often feel lonely.

Go listen to the full episode: Apple | Spotify

See you next week!

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