EP. 70 | Jennifer Chesak: The Psilocybin Handbook For Women, Part 3

Psychedelics, Sexual Consent, & Boundaries

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PART 3 of 3?with guest Jennifer Chesak, author of the recently published The Psilocybin Handbook for Women.

In this episode, host April Pride engages in an enlightening conversation with Jennifer Chesak about the intricacies of sex, consent, and boundaries. In this final episode of our series, listeners can explore these sensitive topics in a safe and informative space.

After listening to this episode, you'll have a better understanding of:

• Sexual abuse in some psychedelic communities was reported by NY Magazine podcast Cover Story “Power Trip.”
• Nuances of consent while in an altered state
• How to communicate boundaries effectively before ingesting psilocybin - and all mind-altering modalities - and the importance of enthusiastic and ongoing agreement.
• Gain insights into navigating challenging discussions around sex and boundaries with partners, fostering mutual understanding and growth.
• Discover how increasing your knowledge about sexual health, consent, and boundaries can increase confidence, better decision-making, and more fulfilling relationships.

EPISODE GUESTS & RESOURCES + TRANSCRIPT BELOW.

GUEST

Jennifer Chesak is an award-winning freelance science and medical journalist, editor, and fact-checker based in Nashville, Tennessee. Her work has appeared in Washington Post, Prevention, Verywell, Healthline, Health, Greatist, Real Simple, Better Homes and Gardens, The Daily Beast, Sleep.com , B*tch, and more. Her coverage focuses on chronic health issues, medical rights, healthcare, harm reduction, and the scientific evidence around health and wellness trends, including cannabis and psychedelics.

Jennifer earned her master of science in Journalism from Northwestern University’s Medill. She currently teaches copyediting, technical writing, and media studies in the publishing program at Belmont University, leads various workshops at the literary nonprofit The Porch, and serves as the managing editor for the literary magazine SHIFT. In her free time, Jennifer, who is originally from North Dakota, can be found covered in mud out on a trail run or in her garden.

RESOURCES

Purchase The Psilocybin Handbook for Women here

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: Hi everyone, Welcome to The High Guide Podcast. Today, we conclude our 3-part series with Jennifer Chesak, author of "The Psilocybin Handbook for Women," with a provocative conversation on the intricacies of sexual health and consent while in an altered state of consciousness.?

0:47:31.9 April Pride, host: Yeah, so but I really don't like talking about this very much, but it's so important in that is that we go into these experiences or the idea that we're gonna take psychedelics and positive changes on the other side, and there is just like... The information around psilocybin in terms of dosing and which variety should I choose and how do I integrate is very secretive. There is another secret in the community, the psychedelic community, and that is that sexual abuse is rampant, and I don't think that we should be surprised that something that involves drugs and secrecy and people in positions of power, that it's just not right for abuse. And there was... You and I spoke about a specific podcast series that New York magazine did, and you referenced this in your book, about it's called Power Trip, and it is about this, I guess, often left out secret in the psychedelic community, and as women in particular are looking for facilitators and looking for psilocybin assisted therapy, a couple of things one, the facilitators who I trust the most, there's always two of them, there's a woman and there's a man, and they work together to guide their clients or their patients, and it could go back to the woo reason you've got a representation of the masculine and a feminine, which is critical, right.

0:49:03.5 April Pride, host: I also just think for harm reduction and witness and safety... Why not have more than one person there? Is there anything else that... Obviously, you have, I think it's in a chapter dedicated to this, so there's a lot that we can go into about this, But fries is something that comes to mind that would be really important to discuss for sure.

0:49:25.2 JC: Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. It's a very difficult topic obviously, and I'm devastated that this is happening, but we have to be talking about it because I do wanna make people aware and... Yes, that podcast, I highly recommend it. It's cover story, Power Trip by New York Magazine, Lily Kay Ross is one of the hosts, producers, etcetera, and she... She just goes through it in a very good explanation of what is happening, but essentially in a nutshell, there are guides, therapists, etcetera, who are sexually assaulting their clients, and one of the things that people need to be, I think need to be really aware of is how much psilocybin makes you more vulnerable and it opens your mind to things, and so if someone is taking advantage of that, yeah, they could convince you to engage in some type of sexual contact with them, and that is what is happening now. Obviously, it doesn't happen to everyone, but it is something that is out there, and so we do need to be vetting our guides therapists, etcetera. Again, consent is not the onus on the person that ends up being assaulted, that's not the case... That's not what I'm trying to say.

0:50:37.6 JC: I just wanna raise awareness about... That this is happening. So I think a really... A couple of really good practices, if you're looking for a guide or a therapist or something, is to see if you can meet with them ahead of time, and they should be... They should have a conversation about consent with you, they should also just be asking everything about you, including your history of trauma, your medications, all of that, if they aren't checking in on that... That would signal to me that they don't really care about you. But yes, you brought up this acronym fries F-R-I-E-S, and so this is something that the social worker Natalie Villanova that I mentioned earlier, she explained to me, she studies stuff regarding psilocybin, but this fries acronym is actually unrelated to that, we can... But we can translate that to our psilocybin session, so...

0:51:33.1 JC: She works with teens and she tries to explain consent to them using this acronym, and it's brilliant, it's... So the F stands for freely given, the R is reversible, and I'll go through these individually informed, it is the I, and then E is enthusiastic and the S is specific, so consent needs to be freely given, this means that you're not under the influence and you're not being coerced or manipulated into giving it, but in the context of a psilocybin session, you might have a pre-session conversation just as I described, where perhaps your practitioner might say something like, "Are you okay with touch or me holding your hand if something difficult comes up?" but if you as the person who is going to go into this session, if you say no to that, they shouldn't be pushing that on you, but that does happen sometimes, the reversible component means that you always have the right to change your mind about anything that you have consented to so far, and that's no matter where you are in the session, but reversal only works in one way, so...

0:52:42.9 JC: A Yes, can always become a No, so if you've consented before your session to... "Yes, you can hold my hand," you can revoke that consent in a psilocybin session, but what I mean that it's not reversed is that if you've said no pre-session to hand-holding your practitioner should not then in the middle of the session when you're on psilocybin, suddenly say, "Hey, are you okay with me holding your hand," you've already said no to that, so you can't suddenly say yes when you're under the influence. So that's the point there. Then informed means that you know exactly what you're getting into when you've said yes to something, so a guide or a therapist should be clear with you beforehand about what to expect, so including ideas about touch or anything like that, and touch does not even have to happen. That's just something that you could talk about in advance, so enthusiastic, and obviously in the context of a sexual experience unrelated to psychedelics means that you're very... The person is into what's happening and continuing to agree to it, it's not a very... It's not just like a maybe kind of thing. So in a psilocybin experience, if somebody is not enthusiastic about touch or something like that, in that pre-session conversation, that's a clear no on their part and the therapist needs to be acknowledging that, and then the last part is specific so in terms of sex...

0:54:15.2 JC: Again, unrelated to psilocybin, that's in terms of, we're moving forward, we're advancing in the sexual experience that we're having and going a little deeper, we need to be getting consent from people along the way, and so that same thing applies in a psilocybin session where sex should not be a part of that at all when you're with a therapist or a guide or whatever, but they need to be checking in with you about everything along the way. That's the specific component. So I think FRIES is a great acronym for all of that.

0:54:47.4 April Pride, host: Yeah, I mean, is there a reason why women should work with men. I say that as a woman raising two sons and I love men, but to be in an altered state and it just feels like you're super vulnerable, I don't know.

0:55:05.8 JC: You are, but it can happen between a woman and a woman, this consent violation as well, so what happened for me with my guide, whom I felt very comfortable with, he's a guy, and he brought his mom as my trip sitter, so she was there, and I never felt so safe in my life and I've got a mom looking after me and I already I had felt very comfortable with him, but I was very adamant about having a female present. And that was granted to me. So I think that that can be beneficial in terms of having someone that you really trust who's with you...

0:55:43.7 April Pride, host: Oh yes, that actually is another thing that's come up, it's the people, like We can talk about setting and being in a comfortable place and making sure you have water and great sound options and a place that's shady, if you're outside. Critical, critical, critical, but the most critical thing is, are the people that you choose to be with when you're in that altered state, so that in also includes the coach or facilitator that you may be working with. Yeah.

0:56:11.7 JC: And the people, if you're doing a retreat with a bunch of people, those other clients are there as well, and they can be problematic with consent towards you as well. It just depends on what's going on. So it's just something to be aware of.

OUTRO

This episode concludes our three-part miniseries with author Jennifer Chesak. I hope it was informative and that you learned something new. And a quick reminder that if you liked this series and you live in Seattle then you’ll want to join Jennifer and me on Nov 15 for a live Q&A sponsored by Of Like Minds. And if you cannot join us live, We’ve linked to her book The Psilocybin Handbook for women in the show notes. Thank you as always for listening to the The High Guide and we’ll see you next time.?